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Car Forum / BMW Cars / April 2009E36 323i timing chain rattle
I have a 1997 UK 323i 2.5L 6cyl with about 130K miles with a kocking /rattle comming from the timing chain area. The sound is like a few stones being mixed in a blender at engine speed, and sound is when the stone hit the side. The hits are quite random, not regular but generally increase with engine speed. It does not seem to happen from cold and more with the engine in fully warm. The owner has started longer motorway journeys recently. Seems to be comming from the timing chain area. The engine runs well otherwise. Reasearching I can find a few problems in this area on the internet -tensioner broken/worn - seems to be more related to the older rotary type+belt (this one is hydralic+chain) -Something else to do with the tensioner, BMW dealer fixed a similar M3 with a secret tweak mostly for free. -Vanos unit, seem more revs specific -Some noises are considered normal or typical -possibly oil related, too thin and not enough pressure in a slightly worn tensioner piston. -To do with tappets/lifters intermittently blocked (surely this would be quite regular?). Suggested to increase oil viscosity aswell. Any help/opinions would be appreciated. I might try and get a video onto utube but havn't done it before. -- Tony > I have a 1997 UK 323i 2.5L 6cyl with about 130K miles with a kocking > /rattle comming from the timing chain area. > The sound is like a few stones being mixed in a blender at engine speed, > and sound is when the stone hit the side. > The hits are quite random, not regular but generally increase with > engine speed. Have you checked the drive belt (fan and AC) idler pulleys?  Signature*A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> I have a 1997 UK 323i 2.5L 6cyl with about 130K miles with a kocking >> /rattle comming from the timing chain area. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Have you checked the drive belt (fan and AC) idler pulleys? The belts where changed a little while ago, but I would be surprised if they could make that sort of noise with a rubber belt, unless there is actually stuff floating around inside them, but then it would happen at all temperatures. My feeling was that because its temp related it likley to be something to do with oil and component wear. Anythings possible I suppose. -- Tony >The belts where changed a little while ago, but I would be surprised if >they could make that sort of noise with a rubber belt, unless there is >actually stuff floating around inside them, but then it would happen at >all temperatures. He's suggesting that the bearings on the belt idlers are worn and that the balls aren't quite round any more. When the engine is cold and the grease is caked up, the balls rattle around. When things warm up and the grease softens, it's okay. There are two ways to tell if this is the problem.... first is to take some 5mm fuel hose, put one end in your ear and wave the other end around in the engine compartment. When you get the end close to the noise source you'll know it, and you'll be able to tell if it is coming from the chain cover, the valve cover, or an idler. The second way is just to squirt some aerosol grease into the bearings on all the idlers and see if they quiet down. >my feeling was that because its temp related it likley to be something >to do with oil and component wear. Anythings possible I suppose. Do the rubber hose trick and verify that it really is coming from the timing chain cover. Then pull the cover and look inside. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > > Have you checked the drive belt (fan and AC) idler pulleys? > The belts where changed a little while ago, but I would be surprised if > they could make that sort of noise with a rubber belt, unless there is > actually stuff floating around inside them, but then it would happen at > all temperatures. It's not the belt that makes the noise but the idler pulley bearings. Does sound rather like timing chain problems - and is a very common failing on this engine. > My feeling was that because its temp related it likley to be something > to do with oil and component wear. Anythings possible I suppose. Signature*Confession is good for the soul, but bad for your career. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >Any help/opinions would be appreciated. >I might try and get a video onto utube but havn't done it before. Pull the cover and look inside. If something is wrong, you'll know it. You might as well just replace the chain and tensioner while you have the thing open anyway. But without opening the cover you'll never know what is going on inside. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |I have a 1997 UK 323i 2.5L 6cyl with about 130K miles with a kocking | /rattle comming from the timing chain area. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] | -- | Tony Tony: After you get the timing chain and any other worn items repaired, please take a look at the link below. You don't need to increase oil viscosity, you need to use a better engineered synthetic oil. Product Description http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/afl.aspx?zo=1690163 AMSOIL European Car Formula 100% Synthetic 5W-40 Motor Oil (AFL) is specially formulated for the lubrication needs of modern European gasoline and diesel cars and light trucks. Formulated with advanced AMSOIL synthetic base stocks, premium additives and a 5W-40 viscosity rating, AMSOIL AFL is the preferred oil for virtually all European automobiles, especially turbo charged models. It is one of the only oils in North America to be recommended for the latest specifications of all three major European automakers - Volkswagen (Audi), BMW and Mercedes-Benz and the latest North American API specification. AMSOIL AFL is highly versatile for multiple applications. Maximum Engine Protection AMSOIL 100% Synthetic European Car Formula contains high quality anti-wear additives and surpasses the tough ACEA oil specifications for high temperature/high shear viscosity. It provides outstanding protection in high RPM, hot running engines and delivers dependable long-term performance for the extended drain intervals set by European automakers. Service Life Recommended for the extended drain intervals established by the vehicle manufacturer or extend based on oil analysis. Change oil filter at time of oil change. Then, take a look at the fully synthetic nanofiber technology oil filters designed to go up to 25,000 miles. http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/eao.aspx?zo=1690163 SignatureSteve Spence Independent AMSOIL Dealer AMSOIL - The "Once A Year" Oil Change Unemployed Car Guy - Trying To Earn A Living 35 Years of G.M. Parts Experience URL: http://synthetic-oil-tech.com/1690163 Email: amsoil1@charter.net > |I have a 1997 UK 323i 2.5L 6cyl with about 130K miles with a kocking > | /rattle comming from the timing chain area. [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > filters designed to go up to 25,000 miles. > http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/eao.aspx?zo=1690163 Steve, Amsoil is NOT endorsed by VAG. It is claimed to meet the requirements, but VAG have not tested it. Best regards David Skelton | > |I have a 1997 UK 323i 2.5L 6cyl with about 130K miles with a kocking | > | /rattle comming from the timing chain area. [quoted text clipped - 86 lines] | | David Skelton Dave: One of the other Amsoil reps I know worked for VW for 20 years as a factory rep. He recommends Amsoil to VW dealers. Two different VW engines are known for slude. Amsoil recommends that the drain intervals established by the vehicle manufacturer "will reduce the likelihood of sludge formation, provide the best protection, and insure that the vehicle manufacturer honors any extended warranty". The two engines prone to sludge are the 1997-2004 A4 and the 1998-2004 Passat equiped with the 1.8L 4-cyl Turbo. Very few VW dealers will purchase Amsoil not because it doesn't meet or exceed the VW spec, but because VW has tied incentive dollars to purchase from VW. Oil is one of the most sold items and therefore carries a lot of "financial weight" to purchase the oil recommended by VW for their vehicles. If you would like to know more, please visit the web site listed in my sig or the Ford engineer's site below. We have a Ford and a G.M. automotive engineer in our group and they can offer a much more detailed and analytical explanation. To visit the Ford enigineer's website, go to: www.performanceoiltechnology.com Please visit the link below to see that white paper on motor oil comparitive testing. http://www.amsoil.com/redirect.cgi?zo=1690163&page=performancetests/g1971/index If you would like any other information concerning Amsoil, please don't hesitate to ask. I will research the issue for you and find an answer. SignatureSteve Spence Independent AMSOIL Dealer AMSOIL - The "Once A Year" Oil Change Unemployed Car Guy - Trying To Earn A Living 35 Years of G.M. Parts Experience URL: http://synthetic-oil-tech.com/1690163 Email: amsoil1@charter.net > | > |I have a 1997 UK 323i 2.5L 6cyl with about 130K miles with a > kocking [quoted text clipped - 139 lines] > don't hesitate to ask. I will research the issue for you and find an > answer. Steve, I actually contacted VAG in Germany about the claims of AMSOIL. VAG had not tested it, so they will not approve it. Amsoil could end this never ending saga of approved or non-approved by getting their oils tested and approved. Stating that it "meets or exceeds" the standard / specification just does not prove anything. Lab tests are not real world tests. As countless makers of all manner of products have found. I have had two 1.8T petrol engined Audis (2003 225 PS, and 2005 240 PS), and neither had a sludge problem. Sludge is not a UK problem. I have from good sources that Castrol pay both Audi and BMW to recommend their oil. I personally do not like Castrol oils. Unfortunately, oils and their correct applications are one of the most easily mis-understood aspects of modern motoring. Even the dealers get it wrong. Best regards David Skelton > |I have a 1997 UK 323i 2.5L 6cyl with about 130K miles with a kocking > | /rattle comming from the timing chain area. [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > filters designed to go up to 25,000 miles. > http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/eao.aspx?zo=1690163 Jesus thats a bit of bare face advert, I am using Mobile 1 fully synth. I suppose Amsoil is better Engineered that that right, what should I be paying for 4L ....£1000???? -- Tony >Jesus thats a bit of bare face advert, I am using Mobile 1 fully synth. > I suppose Amsoil is better Engineered that that right, what should I >be paying for 4L ....£1000???? That's basically why I have always avoided the stuff. It might be perfectly good oil, but I find the huge amount of hype and high-pressure sales that accompanies it to be kind of offensive. That said, there are plenty of high grade oils out there that _do_ meet the SAE guidelines. There is some argument being made that older engines with roller cams want oils with higher ZDDP content than the current SAE guidelines recommend, and this may or may not be a good argument but I don't think it applies to any BMW products you're apt to see. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." Tony, As far as your original post, without an oil sales pitch. I have a '97 328, M52 motor that made the same noises you describe. It eventually turned out to be the fan clutch on the water pump. However, I actually had two noises, and they were hard to distguish. The second noise is well known, called "VANOS rattle" A company on this side of the pond called Dr. Vanos has a rebuilt VANOS kit that is reasonably priced, and *relatively* easy to chang out. Google him, and I'll let him sell his own product. As a safety measure, ensure that your water pump has been replaces compareativly recently, as well. That prevents catestrophic failure and resultant damage. >I have a 1997 UK 323i 2.5L 6cyl with about 130K miles with a kocking >/rattle comming from the timing chain area. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >Any help/opinions would be appreciated. >I might try and get a video onto utube but havn't done it before. > Tony, > > As far as your original post, without an oil sales pitch. I have a '97 > 328, M52 motor that made the same noises you describe. > > It eventually turned out to be the fan clutch on the water pump. Do you mean the viscous coupling? Presumably if I remove the fan it should not occur, or perhaps squiting water on it to cool it. > However, I actually had two noises, and they were hard to distguish. > The second noise is well known, called "VANOS rattle" > > A company on this side of the pond called Dr. Vanos has a rebuilt > VANOS kit that is reasonably priced, and *relatively* easy to chang > out. Google him, and I'll let him sell his own product. I have done valve chains, belts, heads etc on Volvos before but not BMW. The manual look a bit scary with special tools required. > As a safety measure, ensure that your water pump has been replaces > compareativly recently, as well. That prevents catestrophic failure > and resultant damage. The water pump has never been changed, but I have replaced the thermostat. The cooling system does periodically overheat about once a year and needs topped up. I have tried to monitor it, but it seems to not move atall then suddenly. Weather here is very mild (about -4 to 25C max). -- Tony Yes on the fan coupling, Dr Vanos has full instructions, the tools are on EBay failry cheap, a couple hours and it's all good. It truly isn't difficult if you know which end of a wrench to hold. :) The newer I-6 BMW motors are unforgiving as far as water pumps. They just fail. Unofficial recommended replacement is 60,000-80,000 miles. To work in that area of the engine, you disturb the fan for the water pump, so you might as well change both, you are working on the water pump to do the fan, so you might as well change both. To do the VANOS, you end up taking both off, so you might as well change both then too. If the water pump fails, the fan is toast. You might as well do idler pulleys, and belts there too. The timing chain should never ought to need changing, but both tensioners might. It's a little circle of parts that if you start in that area, there is just a good reason to get them all while you're in there. >> Tony, >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >not move atall then suddenly. Weather here is very mild (about -4 to >25C max). > If the water pump fails, the fan is toast. You might as well do idler > pulleys, and belts there too. Obviously the recession hasn't hit everywhere. New pump, viscous coupling, idler pulleys and belts. All on spec. Signature*Welcome to sh.t Creek - sorry, we're out of paddles* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > I have a 1997 UK 323i 2.5L 6cyl with about 130K miles with a kocking > /rattle comming from the timing chain area. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Any help/opinions would be appreciated. > I might try and get a video onto utube but havn't done it before. The problem seems to have moved on, but I'm not sure the first problem is not there anymore or not. Anyway we are now getting more of a squeal at around 1500-2500rpm, only when the engine cold and not at tickover atall. It might be happening at higher revs but maybe drowned out by Engine noise Definately sounds like metal-metal but not a forceful connection between the 2. The viscous coupled fan has been removed and has made no difference. Still seems to be comming from the front of the engine, but I thought outside the timing chain area. Next I think I'll remove the belt and turn the various wheels by hand to feel for looseness and roughness. Also run the engine briefly without the belts to confirm its a belt item. I'm now thinking water pump or some other pulley item, PS, Alt, pulley wheel. -- Tony >The problem seems to have moved on, but I'm not sure the first problem >is not there anymore or not. Anyway we are now getting more of a squeal [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Still seems to be comming from the front of the engine, but I thought >outside the timing chain area. You have a bearing somewhere on the way out. Get some fuel hose in your ear and see where the sound is coming from. >Next I think I'll remove the belt and turn the various wheels by hand to >feel for looseness and roughness. Also run the engine briefly without >the belts to confirm its a belt item. > >I'm now thinking water pump or some other pulley item, PS, Alt, pulley >wheel. This makes sense, and the hose will tell you where it is. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > I have a 1997 UK 323i 2.5L 6cyl with about 130K miles with a kocking > /rattle comming from the timing chain area. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Any help/opinions would be appreciated. > I might try and get a video onto utube but havn't done it before. Seems to be the water pump, end float is all over the place. Fan is moving in and out with about 1 or 2s cycle. -- Tony |
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