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Car Forum / BMW Cars / April 2004Bangle kicked upstairs!
All BMW-heads should be thrilled that bangle has been kicked upstairs where he will no longer have direct responsibility for BMW styling. Can I hear a BIG "Amen"? Bad news is that his protege takes over Bangle's job and there is no real reason to think he has any more taste than Bangle does. One can hope, however. Was walking in a parking lot last week and noticed one of the new Bangle-ized 5-Series parked there. Nearby was a Chevy Impala. Looked at both closely and realized that once you take away the effect of the nicer wheels the 5-Series had, the Impala actually looks a better. Quite a bit better. What possessed the BMW leadership to turn Bangle loose on their cars, anyway? I mean, earlier BMW sedans were not really beautiful, but they were certainly tasteful in styling and aspects of them (front end) were quite beautiful sometimes. I don't get it. Why did they screw up a really nice design? (And let's not even think about I-Drive.)  Signature- GRL "It's good to want things." Steve Barr (philosopher, poet, humorist, chemist, Visual Basic programmer) "GRL" <GLitwinski@CHARTERMI.COM> haute in die Tasten: > All BMW-heads should be thrilled that bangle has been kicked upstairs > where he will no longer have direct responsibility for BMW styling. > Can I hear a BIG "Amen"? This info has been discussed in this newsgroup about one month ago when it was new. Do you have to contribute anything yet unknown? BTW: BMW announced March 2004 to be the most successful month in the whole history of the company. Most customers semm to like the new design. If you don't, go buy a Lexus or an Audi... Frank Signatureplease replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact Time Flies Like An Arrow - Fruit Flies Like A Banana > "GRL" <GLitwinski@CHARTERMI.COM> haute in die Tasten: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Frank Its not like you have to look at the car when you are inside it. as long as the hood looks good, you should be ok. >BTW: BMW announced March 2004 to be the most successful month in the whole >history of the company. Most customers semm to like the new design. If you >don't, go buy a Lexus or an Audi... Oh, not again using sales figures... That "BMW press release" tells absolutely nothing about the new designs. The designs often criticized are of the 5 and 7 series. And overall sales correlates very little with sales of the 5 and 7 series. As I said to a dimwit who actually made up sales numbers and goals in another similar thread, don't use sales figures to support your point if you don't know the actual numbers. Concentrate on intangibles since it's harder to challenge personal opinion. -- marcio at compudimensions.com Marcio Watanabe <Marcio@nospam.com> haute in die Tasten: > Oh, not again using sales figures... BMW does not make art, they sell cars. It is not their task to meet your personal taste. It is their task to earn money. And if you compare BMW with every other german car maker, they seem to make the best job at the moment. Frank Signatureplease replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact Time Flies Like An Arrow - Fruit Flies Like A Banana >Marcio Watanabe <Marcio@nospam.com> haute in die Tasten: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >personal taste. It is their task to earn money. And if you compare BMW with >every other german car maker, they seem to make the best job at the moment. Who is saying anything about personal taste? I'm just challenging your correlation of overall BMW sales in one month with anything. And I'm only doing this because just a couple weeks ago (thread "E60 sales figures" or something like that), one guy posted completely made up BMW sales goals and figures just to prove the point that the E60 is successful. Your attitude doesn't seem too much different from his. Yes, sales figures do tell the true story. If a car is successful, sales increase and market share is gained against competitors. That is the ultimate measure of the success of a car, not what some people think about the design. If you have the specific sales figures to prove your point of view, then please post them here. For example, sales history of the 5 series and MB E-class. Or 7 series and MB S-class. That's all I ask. As of now, you are just the BMW parrot who repeats their press releases here and gives it a twist. This is getting tiring. On one side we have the Bangle haters which IMO are big cry babies. On the other side we have the BMW apologistics which seem to like making up or twisting sales figures to support their point of view. I'd be interested to know the truth about the sales trends and history, but obviously I won't be getting them here. -- marcio at compudimensions.com Marcio Watanabe <Marcio@nospam.com> haute in die Tasten: > On the other side we have the BMW > apologistics which seem to like making up or twisting sales figures to > support their point of view. Well, you can look at the value of the BMW stock shares yourself;-) According to Kraftfahrzeugbundesamt (German Federal administration for motorvehicles) in January 2004 registration numbers in Germany were the following (values for february in brackets): Audi A6/S6 2351 (3088) BMW 5 Series 5022 (4210) Mercedes E Class 7129 (6613) Jaguar S-Type 35 (21) Chrysler 300 M 8 (4) Between January 2003 and January 2004 the number of registrered cars made by BMW group (this includes Mini) in Germany rose by 2.4 percent to 2.8 Mio cars. Audi has about the same number of cars on the road, the rise was only 1,4 percent. The numbers of Mercedes rose by 1,9 percent to 3,9 Mio cars. Chrysler/Jeep has 225.000 cars on the road (majority of them Jeeps), Jaguar has 47.000 units on the road. By the way: In January 2004 408 new BMW 7 series got a german registration and 512 new Mercedes S class. Cadillac managed to sell 8 cars (6 CTS, 2 Seville), and 6 new Maybachs hit the road. So it is business as usual: Mercedes sells more than BMW, but BMW still is good in the business. Frank Signatureplease replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact Time Flies Like An Arrow - Fruit Flies Like A Banana >Marcio Watanabe <Marcio@nospam.com> haute in die Tasten: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Well, you can look at the value of the BMW stock shares yourself;-) Thank for proving my point. Unfortunately for you, I just looked up the BMW stock share values at bmwgroup.com. In March 2002, when the new 7-series was launched, BMW shares were trading at about 45. It went downhill from there. In September 2003, when the 5-series was launched, BMW shares were trading at about 36. This month's trading range: 34-35. If any conclusion can be made, it's that the 7 and 5-series are a failure. But you were the one who tried to use stock share values as a direct indication of a car's success. I don't agree with that, so I don't think such conclusion can be made. About your other numbers, if they show anything, they show that Mercedes-Benz is doing better than BMW which directly contradicts your previous statement, "if you compare BMW with every other german car maker, they seem to make the best job at the moment." But in fact, to really know this, we have to have several previous years numbers so that we know if the share is increasing or decreasing, so your numbers show nothing. -- marcio at compudimensions.com "Marcio Watanabe" <Marcio@nospam.com> wrote in message > Thank for proving my point. Unfortunately for you, I just looked up > the BMW stock share values at bmwgroup.com. In March 2002, when the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > range: 34-35. If any conclusion can be made, it's that the 7 and > 5-series are a failure. The automotive business worldwide is under pressure that didn't exist in the heady days of year 1998 to 2002, but German companies in particular given the rising Euro. It's not simple coincidence that the German auto industry performance began slowing in lock step with the Euro's rise from US $ .80 in 2002 to US $ 1.31 today. Share prices will never be the bellwether for the success or failure of individual models, I agree with you there. It's all a bit more complicated than that. Bottom line though, the new 5 and 7, at least from every report I have read, are selling well. How well may only be known a year from now, but to date, other than the sniping I've seen on this ng, have I never read a single report that indicates, proves or implies the new models aren't in the very least holding previous sales performance against the competition. Unlike many here, I wish BMW, a smaller independent auto maker, the best with their new models. "Jess Englewood" <pleasen@spam.com> haute in die Tasten: > Bottom line though, the new 5 and 7, at least from every report I > have read, are selling well. Exactly. And my sales figures proved one thing one can see when he drives around in Germany a little bit: The new BMWs sell very good (given the fact that BMW hardly ever sold more cars in the sedan section than Mercedes did). Actually I was surprised how well the 7series sells in Germany. Almost 75% of the S-class sales, this is remarkable for a car which is treated by many people as the ugliest car on earth;-). Hint: Since decades Mercedes has sold more S-classes than BMW sold 7-series;-) Frank Signatureplease replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact Time Flies Like An Arrow - Fruit Flies Like A Banana And, what must be said again and again for the transatlantic readers, BMW and Merc are mass cars in Germany. The official registration figures are here: http://www.kfz-auskunft.de/ In left sidebar click on Pkw-Neuzulassungen (11th down). You then get access to registration figures by manufacturer as well as by model. Sales by mfgs = Verkaufszahlen [year] nach Herstellern. In 2003 Merc was number 2 on the list (after VW) with about 370 000 cars (without the 44 000 Smart cars). BMW was no. 6 with 228 000 9without the 25 000 Minis). Frank, when you referred to BMW making the best job of selling cars, did you mean its percent profits are greater than the car division of Merc or of other manufacturers? DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- > "Jess Englewood" <pleasen@spam.com> haute in die Tasten: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Frank "Dori A Schmetterling" <ng@nospam.co.uk> haute in die Tasten: > Frank, when you referred to BMW making the best job of selling cars, > did you mean its percent profits are greater than the car division of > Merc or of other manufacturers? No, I meant that they do the best job in surviving the crisis, given the former and current sales. Frank Signatureplease replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact Time Flies Like An Arrow - Fruit Flies Like A Banana > "Dori A Schmetterling" <ng@nospam.co.uk> haute in die Tasten: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > No, I meant that they do the best job in surviving the crisis, given the > former and current sales. But also they are the best margin producer in the automotive world second only to Porsche. "Jess Englewood" <pleasen@spam.com> haute in die Tasten: > But also they are the best margin producer in the automotive world second > only to Porsche. How do you define "Margin Producer"? They have three brands and a production range which reaches from a Sub-compact to a luxury limousine. If you take away Mini and Rolls Royce, BMW alone still has a larger production range than Saab, Volvo, Lancia, Fiat, Lexus, Acura and such. The only thing BMW does not make is a minivan. And rumours are that they actually do work on such a thing. Ah, I forgot: They don't make commercial vehicles, but they have a range of very successful motorcycles. This is something which can't be beaten by the Big Three in America ;-) Frank Signatureplease replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact Time Flies Like An Arrow - Fruit Flies Like A Banana > "Jess Englewood" <pleasen@spam.com> haute in die Tasten: > > > But also they are the best margin producer in the automotive world second > > only to Porsche. > > How do you define "Margin Producer"? BMW, the company (meaning all cars built under that parent), produces the 2nd largest net margin against sales in the automotive world. Porsche is numero uno. This seems impressive, but there are other companies, Japanese and American companies, with less debt and more cash. Personally I find that a better measure if using only one or two indicators. > They have three brands and a > production range which reaches from a Sub-compact to a luxury limousine. If [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > they have a range of very successful motorcycles. This is something which > can't be beaten by the Big Three in America ;-) I don't know what all this has to do with anything. Sorry. "Jess Englewood" <pleasen@spam.com> haute in die Tasten: > I don't know what all this has to do with anything. Sorry. Sorry, language misunderstanding. Frank Signatureplease replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact Time Flies Like An Arrow - Fruit Flies Like A Banana Minor detail (about which, Frank, I am sure you know): Saab does not have a brand range, nor does Volvo. Both are themselves part of large ranges. Similar applies to Fiat/Lancia, Lexus/Toyota and Acura/Legend/Honda DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- [.......] > How do you define "Margin Producer"? They have three brands and a > production range which reaches from a Sub-compact to a luxury limousine. If [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Frank >According to Kraftfahrzeugbundesamt (German Federal administration for >motorvehicles) in January 2004 registration numbers in Germany were the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >So it is business as usual: Mercedes sells more than BMW, but BMW still >is good in the business. I'd like to see those numbers with fleet and taxi sales taken out. I believe the E-class is the taxi-driver's car of choice, is it not? dizzy <dizzy@nospam.invalid> haute in die Tasten: > I'd like to see those numbers with fleet and taxi sales taken out. I > believe the E-class is the taxi-driver's car of choice, is it not? It used to be, but today you see a lot of different brands and models. Nevertheless the E-class is for sure the car with the largest market share amongst taxi dirivers in Germany. OTOH I cannot give you any valid information about fleet sales. BMWs are also very popular as company cars. Frank Signatureplease replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact Time Flies Like An Arrow - Fruit Flies Like A Banana <snipped> > Was walking in a parking lot last week and noticed one of the new > Bangle-ized 5-Series parked there. Nearby was a Chevy Impala. Looked at both > closely and realized that once you take away the effect of the nicer wheels > the 5-Series had, the Impala actually looks a better. Quite a bit better. I absolutely hated the Bangled 7 and dito 5 series when I first saw them. The 5 is starting to grow a little (probably because I see loads of 'm driving around), the 7 still seems and looks weird. Yep, I still don't know whether to like the new 5 or dislike it - until I saw THIS one: http://www.bmwm5.com/articles/tenerife/tenerife.htm That car is on my wishlist - together with the new 6 and the upcoming M4. Princess Morgiah > The 5 is starting to grow a little (probably because I see loads of 'm > driving around), the 7 still seems and looks weird. It's still a rare sight on the streets of London - a first for BMW unless the model is in short supply, as the E39 was to start with. There's a black one parked opposite a place I work sometime, and front on - apart from those ridiculous headlight details, which would be easily sorted, the proportions look more MPV with a high roof line and large windscreen relative to the low grill, etc, than sports saloon. Perhaps Bangle was disappointed BMW don't make an MPV. Signature*'ome is where you 'ang your @ * Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn In my neck of the London woods (Notting Hill) I see the 5 and 7 not 'a lot' but more than 'rarely'. DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- > > The 5 is starting to grow a little (probably because I see loads of 'm > > driving around), the 7 still seems and looks weird. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > windscreen relative to the low grill, etc, than sports saloon. Perhaps > Bangle was disappointed BMW don't make an MPV. > In my neck of the London woods (Notting Hill) I see the 5 and 7 not 'a > lot' but more than 'rarely'. Yes - I suppose they're hardly in the Ferrari class of rarity. But in comparison to the E39, they're rare. Signature*And don't start a sentence with a conjunction * Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn > > In my neck of the London woods (Notting Hill) I see the 5 and 7 not 'a > > lot' but more than 'rarely'. > > Yes - I suppose they're hardly in the Ferrari class of rarity. But in > comparison to the E39, they're rare. OH, just go to a High school parking lot, it will be full of Ferrari's and Lambo's You mean in Los Angeles? DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- [...........] > OH, just go to a High school parking lot, it will be full of Ferrari's and > Lambo's > You mean in Los Angeles? > > OH, just go to a High school parking lot, it will be full of Ferrari's > > and Lambo's A High School with a students' parking lot would be a novelty in the UK, let alone one full of grocer's "Ferrari's". Signature*It ain't the size, it's... er... no, it IS ..the size. Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn > > You mean in Los Angeles? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > A High School with a students' parking lot would be a novelty in the UK, > let alone one full of grocer's "Ferrari's". Yeah, in LA, and Orange County... actually I would think most the California coast, children receive very nice cars. I remember a kid got a Lexus for his Birthday. Later I found out that he could have gotten a BMW if he got his GPA up to a 2.5 (C+ ave) but I guess that was too much work, and he settled for the Lexus. Am I bitter about kids getting nice cars? no, am I bitter that they get these nice cars, crash them, and not care and then their parents buy them another one and they do it all over again and still not care? YES! > > > You mean in Los Angeles? > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > these nice cars, crash them, and not care and then their parents buy them > another one and they do it all over again and still not care? YES! Same here. I don't mind parents buying whatever kind of car for their children, as long as they respect it and not consider it a fact of life. I actually know someone who got a VW Golf (brand new) full option for his 18th birthday - he didn't even have a license yet. He came home from school, saw the car, went inside the house to his mom & dad and asked if they could throw in a non-default stereo. Unbelievable. When I got my license I got a brand new Ford Escort from my parents - for which I am still grateful although I no longer have the car. Damn I loved that car... Princess Morgiah > > > > You mean in Los Angeles? > > > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Princess Morgiah ahh yes, I do recall hearing that story before. on this NG too I believe! I have bought all my car. No, none of them have much "bling" but my current truck IS bright yellow. I tend to favor longevity over what ever the Jones' have. Many of my friend got their first car for free, or paid for the DMV fees. They were always respectful, and actually pretty good drivers (save one) > When I got my license I got a brand new Ford Escort from my parents - for > which I am still grateful although I no longer have the car. Damn I loved > that car... So how is it any different to get a new BMW or a new Ford Escort handed to you? It's the same flawed thinking, applied to a lesser monetary value... Case in point: I have 3 kids of driving age. They each have older, used cars that they drive. They work to pay for them (I'm the bank) and I help keep them in good repair (at their expense and with their help). I am convinced that the fact that they have some major "skin in the game" is what keeps them from abusing them or doing other stupid teen-driver tricks. But I cannot take credit for any of these ideas. It was my own father that did the very same program with me. I have never had a car "given" to me, unless you count the company cars my employer's "gave" me in the past as part of my compensation package, which I obviously had to work for, and which I still had to pay personal use fees on. The strange thing is that I had many co-workers that would abuse their "free" company cars, and took no care or pride in them. I'll bet they were the same that got cars from their mummy and daddy as kids when they did something extra special, like graduate from high school, or get their drivers license, or something... Please... If you don't have to work (hard) for something it will be of no value to you. Then, the less you value that item, the less value other object will seem to have. It's a viscous cycle. But maybe I'm wrong about all of this... -Fred W > > When I got my license I got a brand new Ford Escort from my parents - for > > which I am still grateful although I no longer have the car. Damn I loved [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > convinced that the fact that they have some major "skin in the game" is what > keeps them from abusing them or doing other stupid teen-driver tricks. I am just the opposite. I bought new cars for both my kids when they got their licenses and passed my own series of tests on driving ability and knowledge. I want performance in other areas of their lives, meaning school, sports and philanthropy. After this they have little time for anything else...especially jobs either at home or away. It's a choice I had to make and one cannot make more hours in the day. So I chose school, which I feel very strongly about, and sports, which I believe builds self-awareness and expectation in a way no job for money or other compensation can and require greater commitment than work for money, and philanthropy, which is rewarding in ways that most kids experience in only small doses. I don't think either of us are wrong (in my case my oldest daughter's success at least ensures my program wasn't harmful :^), I just think you need to know your child's strengths and weaknesses and modify your parenting "tactics" in order to accentuate their strengths and strengthen their weaknesses. By the way, my father absolutely refused to buy a car for me or co-sign a loan that I would pay off or help me get a car in any way. I wanted to knock him out, but unlike other kids who have visions of punching out Dad, I had a complete and thorough understanding that he would wax my a.s. I hitchhiked for quite a while............. > > > When I got my license I got a brand new Ford Escort from my parents - > for [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > complete and thorough understanding that he would wax my a.s. I hitchhiked > for quite a while............. You may notice that there are some very bad parents out there, (No Fred, I am not talking about you. You appear to be a good parent). These bad parents are the ones that are never around, never really care about their kid, and then their kid goes off and does something stupid to get noticed and end up hating their parents. Then the parents think. "gee, if I buy them a car, they will like me again" There are two basic schools of thought on this topic, the "get a job, learn how to earn that car" and then the, "as long as you keep at your education, I will 'sponsor' you" Its when they are NOT doing well, and don't care,and demand the car is when it gets messy. As long as they understand the car is a privilege, and it can be taken away if they slack off, then its ok. Both schools of thought are good in my opinion, but your kid needs to know respect and value long before they are 16, otherwise neither will work. My parents could not afford to buy me a car, so I had no choice. However, if they could have, they would have gotten me a car and I would have been able to channel that 35 hours a week of after class jobs, to studying. I have friends that were given cars because they were really into school, and they are very smart. I often wish I could have taken that route myself, but this is the hand I was dealt >Its when they are NOT doing well, and don't care,and > demand the car is when it gets messy. As long as they understand the car is > a privilege, and it can be taken away if they slack off, then its ok. I agree with what you have said, but I would have to add that one needs to be very careful about giving a gift to a kid and then wielding it as a threat. > >Its when they are NOT doing well, and don't care,and > > demand the car is when it gets messy. As long as they understand the car [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > be very careful about giving a gift to a kid and then wielding it as a > threat. Then don't give them the car. Buy the car, and then tell them its your car, but he can use it as long as he respects it. > "Jess Englewood" <pleasen@spam.com> wrote in message > > I agree with what you have said, but I would have to add that one needs to > > be very careful about giving a gift to a kid and then wielding it as a > > threat. > > > Then don't give them the car. Buy the car, and then tell them its your car, > but he can use it as long as he respects it. The threat still remains. Again, I don't think it's about how they acquire the car, I think it is about how they manage the regard you have shown them by allowing for a car and how they handle the euphoria and burden of that ownership. You can forget about seeing what level of maturity and responsibility your kids have risen too if their every action is based upon your threat to take the car away. > If you don't have to work (hard) for something it will be of no value to > you. Then, the less you value that item, the less value other object > will seem to have. It's a viscous cycle. > But maybe I'm wrong about all of this... Of course you're right, IMHO. If you have to save up for something, you really appreciate it - otherwise you wouldn't bother. I got a new push bike for passing my 11+ exam. My father's parents were too poor to afford such things, and he decided his kids would have bikes no matter what the sacrifice. Suppose it's the same with cars now. Signature*The fact that no one understands you doesn't mean you're an artist Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn > > When I got my license I got a brand new Ford Escort from my parents - for > > which I am still grateful although I no longer have the car. Damn I loved > > that car... > > So how is it any different to get a new BMW or a new Ford Escort handed to > you? It's the same flawed thinking, applied to a lesser monetary value... No - the point I'm trying to make is not about the money, it's about respect. I got a car and I respected it - the moment I did not show it any respect (reckless driving or stuff like that) I would loose it. The same goes for my education: my parents simply gave me a choice. Study whatever you want, as long as you do your best we will back you up. The moment we notice that you do not work hard enough, you're on your own. > Case in point: I have 3 kids of driving age. They each have older, used > cars that they drive. They work to pay for them (I'm the bank) and I help [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I cannot take credit for any of these ideas. It was my own father that did > the very same program with me. And I think it's a good program, just not the only one. I never had to work until I got my first real job, I never had any jobs during the holidays. Two reasons: one, when you get a real job there's time enough to do some real work and two, if you want to work, why work for someone else? There's plenty of work to be done around the house. Personally I'd rather spend a vacation helping out my parents for free than working at a store or restaurant for money. > I have never had a car "given" to me, unless you count the company cars my > employer's "gave" me in the past as part of my compensation package, which I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > something extra special, like graduate from high school, or get their > drivers license, or something... Please... I do not count company cars as a given, although it is true what you say about abusing them. You wouldn't believe the stuff I hear at work when we're talking about company cars, it seems that nobody cares about the cars. Scratch? Dent? Whatever, I do not have to pay for them. > If you don't have to work (hard) for something it will be of no value to > you. Then, the less you value that item, the less value other object will > seem to have. It's a viscous cycle. There is a great deal of truth behind your reasoning, but I still think a lot depends on your education. My parents always taught me to respect everything around me. As a kid, I got a lot of toys but I never smashed anything on purpose. There's a lot of stuff from my childhood piled up in the attic that's been used a lot, still in mint condition. > But maybe I'm wrong about all of this... It's not a case of wrong and right here, I guess, more a matter of opinion. And I respect that ;) Princess Morgiah > > In my neck of the London woods (Notting Hill) I see the 5 and 7 not 'a > > lot' but more than 'rarely'. > > Yes - I suppose they're hardly in the Ferrari class of rarity. But in > comparison to the E39, they're rare. That might be because BMW made some 1.5 million of them over the past 6 or 7 years and 30,000+ of the E65 over the last 8 months. That ratio probably applies to the British market as well given that you are 3rd on their list after Germany and California :^) > > Yes - I suppose they're hardly in the Ferrari class of rarity. But in > > comparison to the E39, they're rare. > That might be because BMW made some 1.5 million of them over the past 6 > or 7 years and 30,000+ of the E65 over the last 8 months. That ratio > probably applies to the British market as well given that you are 3rd on > their list after Germany and California :^) UK cars have a code on the number plate that gives their date of first registration, and it changes twice a year. I assumed you'd think me bright enough to compare the sales over an equivalent period. Signature*Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes. Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn > > > Yes - I suppose they're hardly in the Ferrari class of rarity. But in > > > comparison to the E39, they're rare. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > UK cars have a code on the number plate that gives their date of first > registration, and it changes twice a year. How can the first date of registration (or the "code" representing the same) change twice per year? A date is a date, is it not? But in any case (for the moment forgetting that you investigate, and print to memory, the registration date of every 5'er you see or pass on the roadway), if 1.5 million of one car was built, compared to 30,000 of another, my expectation is that the first car would be in evidence with more frequency. Back when I bought my first e39 in 1997 it was a couple years before I saw lots of them on our local streets. Now they are like middle-aged men at a wet t-shirt contest. That being said, I don't find any importance in whether or not people see one model any more or less than the other. In Denver BMW's are all over the place, in Colorado Springs 50 miles down the road they are seen far less often. Who knows why. They are similar cities with similar income levels similar age groups and only slightly differing politics (yes Denver is often as conservative Christian as C-Springs :^) I have read that the E60 is selling well worldwide, whether that's better than the E39 or worse, or how much better or worse etc. etc. won't be known until this time next year. And even then one would have to decide what economic and political factors played roles in the results. Basically I don't think that at this point in time, what one sees on the streets, is of any importance whatsoever. > > UK cars have a code on the number plate that gives their date of first > > registration, and it changes twice a year. > How can the first date of registration (or the "code" representing the > same) change twice per year? A date is a date, is it not? Sorry, meant *year* of first registration. So, unless the car has a personal plate, you can tell within 6 months maximum how old it is. Of course, with some makes you can tell this just by looking given the annual 'improvements'. But the E39 only really changed once. I'll bet the E60 has a major revision in short order - for the UK and Europe at least. Signature*A person who smiles in the face of adversity probably has a scapegoat * Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn > I'll bet the E60 has > a major revision in short order - for the UK and Europe at least. I doubt it, there is no reason to do so. Remember, there is indeed a vocal minority caterwauling all over the web and in the press, but the numbers are good worldwide, despite your belief the UK hasn't accepted the new car. And even if there were, given the early revision of the E65 they would resist backtracking on the E60 at all costs. I'll take that bet....how 'bout $ 100.00 US. And what term is in "short order"? Only commit if your serious, I love wagering. > <snipped> > > Was walking in a parking lot last week and noticed one of the new [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > wheels > > the 5-Series had, the Impala actually looks a better. Quite a bit better. Having looked at a few now on the road, I actually like it save for one thing. The chrome strips over the headlight and I guess to a lesser extent the steep rake on the corners of the lights. If you installed some well done "eyebrows" in body colour, the car would look pretty good to me. -Russ. > > <snipped> > > > Was walking in a parking lot last week and noticed one of the new [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > -Russ. I LOVE the lights on the older style 7s The look like lazy eyes to me. Lind of like its so powerful, so luxurious that it doesn't even have to try. Its a shame they didn't continue with them. > <snipped> > > Was walking in a parking lot last week and noticed one of the new [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Princess Morgiah Is it that the design is growing on you? or is it that other car companies have come out with even more ugly designs and so the new BMW looks LESS ugly? I really hated the look of the new Dodge RAM, but then Ford came out with their F-150 monstrosity, and suddenly, the new RAM looks a lot better. Funny how that works. The new 5 is ok looking, is does look a lot better then the 7, but the concept pix of the new M5 really did it for me. It looks pretty darn good! > > <snipped> > > > Was walking in a parking lot last week and noticed one of the new [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > have come out with even more ugly designs and so the new BMW looks LESS > ugly? I guess the first - the more you see them, the more you get used to them (can you really get used to them?). > I really hated the look of the new Dodge RAM, but then Ford came out with > their F-150 monstrosity, and suddenly, the new RAM looks a lot better. Funny > how that works. > The new 5 is ok looking, is does look a lot better then the 7, but the > concept pix of the new M5 really did it for me. It looks pretty darn good! Indeed - although I must admit that the 500BHP V10 has something to do with it as well :) Princess Morgiah > I guess the first - the more you see them, the more you get used to them > (can you really get used to them?). I don't think it is a matter of getting used to them. I think it is a matter of losing the visual cue of what you believe a BMW should look like based upon the most previous models. Basically the love affair people had with the previous models is where the discomfort originates. That comment about people needing time to get used to new things wasn't Bangle's or BMW's best moment in reacting to people's horror that the new 5 and 7 aren't some small evolution of the previous ones. What people need is the time to recover from the loss of the old look. Also much of what the press reports is done with something less than true familiarity, which in turn breeds inaccuracy in gross. If one were to spend some time with one of these new cars they would understand just how inaccurate reporting on I-Drive and the cabin has been, regardless of what you think of the looks. It's startling really, how bad the American press has been in this regard. Eventually **some** of the pinheads who write for these magazines will gain the necessary wheel time in these cars and have a better understanding of not only the car's capabilities but also a familiarity with the ergonomics and array of cabin controls. In the E60 these clowns don't like rotary dials for climate control (or they didn't notice they exist) and can't adjust the vents with the on dash vent controls (or they didn't know they exist) yet they love Active Steering, which, if you have driven, you know it numbs out and damps most of the feedback from the wheels. We finally get R & P for the front steering on the V8 (a deficiency no writer noticed on the E39 540) and now these "experts" love a computer modulated system that negates much the good one derives from the R&P. Amazing. At least in the recent Car and Driver the author accurately portrayed how AS really creates a buffer between the driver and the road. I'm ranting about the pinheaded magazine writers, aren't I............... > All BMW-heads should be thrilled that bangle has been kicked upstairs where > he will no longer have direct responsibility for BMW styling. Can I hear a > BIG "Amen"? Not from me. I never thought BMW had a stellar lineup of exterior designs anyway. Of recent cars I liked the E46 and E39, but not the X5, Z3 or E38. My perspective is simple: I don't think BMW is replacing a classic lineup of cars with the new models because the most recent previous lineup wasn't anything to shout about. Do I think my recent E39 (which I drove for 6 years) will ever become a classic? Nah, indeed it is beginning to look like a relic instead. The general "wedge" shape almost ensures both. But when it was new I actually lusted for it. > (And let's not even think about I-Drive.) Compared to the controls on my E39 I-Drive is actually quite nice. I would much rather have rotary dials and knobs for most of these functions, rather than one central controller, but in an hour or so it becomes clear it is a better alternative (though not the best alternative) to the previous car. Once again this is a matter of selective memory, because the E39, with nary a dial in sight, and 30 or 40 button functions, was (in terms of climate and radio/CD controls) an ergonomic orgy. I don't think there has ever been a single time in the last 6 years when I was operating the climate controls and didn't think to myself what idiot came up with the idea to run this car with a multitude of push buttons. Quite frankly my Grand Cherokee has better controls than my E39. And I don't mean that as a joke or insult....it's just simply true. I-Drive, while not the best option, is certainly better than what the E39 provided There sure seems to be a lot of hostility on this newsgroup regarding the new 5-series pros and cons. I'm one of those who doesn't like it (I know....buy an Audi or an MB or a Toyota...ad infinitum, if you don't like it) so save your hostile replies. My question regarding this post is: Since Bangle has been kicked upstairs, how long do we have to wait for a re-design of the 5-Series? I currently have a 2003 E39 and would be interested in the E60 if they would revise the bodywork a bit so the car didn't look like a rejected Pontiac. Anyone have some idea of when significant changes might be made? > All BMW-heads should be thrilled that bangle has been kicked upstairs where > he will no longer have direct responsibility for BMW styling. Can I hear a [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > (And let's not even think about I-Drive.) > There sure seems to be a lot of hostility on this newsgroup regarding > the new 5-series pros and cons. I'm one of those who doesn't like it (I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > car didn't look like a rejected Pontiac. Anyone have some idea of when > significant changes might be made? Of course not. If it sells well there will be small revisions over it's 7 year lifespan. If it doesn't you can expect a severe revision in 2 years or so. Right now, according to published accounts (who knows how accurate they are) the car is selling at or above BMW's stated goals. Production dates are out 3 months on I6's and 4 months on V8's in most US metro markets (BMW's new biggest market). German posters say it sells well there and is in great evidence and UK posters say they don't see many and the car is being heavily discounted. My bet is that the car is being accepted on a level perfectly compliant with BMW expectations, particulalry after following a car that gained such a vast following. By the way, I drove e39's for 7 years and as much as I loved those cars, as much as I think it was the best option in that price and size range for 5 of those years, it was never, ever, on a number of levels, as good a car as some people and some magazines claimed. > By the way, I drove e39's for 7 years and as much as I loved those cars, > as much as I think it was the best option in that price and size range > for 5 of those years, it was never, ever, on a number of levels, as good > a car as some people and some magazines claimed. I tested all the opposition before buying my 528. The V-8 is not common in the UK - and was out of my price range. So taking the 6, what was a better current car? My second choice was the Jag S-Type, but it wasn't as good until its first revision some years later. I'm also a private buyer, so depreciation matters too. Signature*A cubicle is just a padded cell without a door. Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn > I tested all the opposition before buying my 528. The V-8 is not common > in the UK - and was out of my price range. So taking the 6, what was a > better current car? My second choice was the Jag S-Type, but it wasn't as > good until its first revision some years later. I'm also a private buyer, > so depreciation matters too. My first E39 was the 528 (Canyon Red, loved that color) in 1997, then in 2001 I bought a 530. I avoided the 540 because I thought the RB steering numbed it out a bit compared to the R&P in the 6 cylinder models and the 540 wasn't as sharp a driver as it smaller powered siblings. And now I've been driving a 545 for a few months. During the course of my ownership of the 528 I thought it was the best mid-sized sedan out there. By the end of my time with the 530 I thought Merc had a better offering in the new E Class. I think a case could be made for the A6 as well. Hey, time marches on...ya know. Only Ali could stay the Champ forever. I bought back into BMW ownership with the E60 because it raises the bar in all aspects compared to any of the 3 cars mentioned above. With all the argument and criticism about the E60 looks, it has almost be totally missed that the car is a better driver and much better car than the E39. Bigger, lighter, sharper on the rubber, faster, more comfortable, better steering (I don't like AS so mine is standard R&P). So far the only thing I think is sub-standard is that the engine roar is insulated out except for a small amount. I like the much quieter cabin, but would prefer some engine song. There's nothing like the I6 snarl starting at 4,000 rpm, but I would enjoy what the V8 has to say as well. I'm not 100% comfortable with the looks, and that may or may not change, but the drive makes me forget that. I'm lucky though, I've never been one of those people who gets overly concerned about appearances or what other people have to say. I think, to be an owner of one of the newer models one has to be of that persuasion :^). > During the course of my ownership of the 528 I thought it was the best > mid-sized sedan out there. By the end of my time with the 530 I thought > Merc had a better offering in the new E Class. I think a case could be > made for the A6 as well. Hey, time marches on...ya know. Only Ali could > stay the Champ forever. Ah - right. You gave the impression you thought the E39 was *never* a class winner. Of course all models get outclassed toward the end of their life - we'd all be driving Model Ts otherwise. Signature*Starfishes have no brains * Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn > > During the course of my ownership of the 528 I thought it was the best > > mid-sized sedan out there. By the end of my time with the 530 I thought [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Ah - right. You gave the impression you thought the E39 was *never* a > class winner. That wasn't my intention, in fact I said, specifically: "I drove e39's for 7 years and as much as I loved those cars, as much as I think it was the best option in that price and size range for 5 of those years, it was never, ever, on a number of levels, as good a car as some people and some magazines claimed." Which isn't to say it wasn't great, but that for some reason that car was granted a pass on criticisms. > > Ah - right. You gave the impression you thought the E39 was *never* a > > class winner. > That wasn't my intention, in fact I said, specifically: "I drove e39's > for 7 years and as much as I loved those cars, as much as I think it was > the best option in that price and size range for 5 of those years, it > was never, ever, on a number of levels, as good a car as some people and > some magazines claimed." Which isn't to say it wasn't great, but that > for some reason that car was granted a pass on criticisms. Well, no car is perfect. Signature*How about "never"? Is "never" good for you? Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn > > > Ah - right. You gave the impression you thought the E39 was *never* a > > > class winner. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Well, no car is perfect. Or even close to perfect and that is the point, there are so many considerations when placing some subjective value on a car's reliability, amenities, character and capabilities. The E39 has been claimed about perfect and it never was. > > Well, no car is perfect. > Or even close to perfect and that is the point, there are so many > considerations when placing some subjective value on a car's reliability, > amenities, character and capabilities. The E39 has been claimed about > perfect and it never was. There's nothing new about people claiming their car, or 'a' car is perfect. It's simply a figure of speech. What you may claim is that a car is the best in class, and IMHO the E39 was when introduced, and for some time afterwards, and this was acknowledged by much of the press. I'm afraid the same doesn't apply to the E60, although it may well be a better car than the E39. Indeed, it would be strange if it wasn't. Still a pity about the looks, though. ;-) Signature*Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery? Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn > > > Well, no car is perfect. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > There's nothing new about people claiming their car, or 'a' car is perfect. I think there is. Aside from the 911 I can't think of another time, in my life, when a car available to the public was exclaimed to be perfect. And this came from not only laymen but magazine reviewers (for those who value such opinions) as well, and the general population bought it lock, stock and barrel. > It's simply a figure of speech. I think it's far more than that. Particularly amongst BMW drivers it was almost gospel that the E39 was practically perfect. The E39 was a fantastic automobile, but harbored a numbers of faults and warts. > What you may claim is that a car is the > best in class, and IMHO the E39 was when introduced, and for some time > afterwards, and this was acknowledged by much of the press. I think the same, in fact I believe I have said that a couple times in this very thread. Once again though, the "press" had, and has, nothing to do with what I think of any car or what I think of what I think :^) I don't need their agreement. > I'm afraid the same doesn't apply to the E60, although it may well be a > better car than the E39. Indeed, it would be strange if it wasn't. I'd agree with that, and it is a better car. But I believe much of the car buying public and the magazine pinheads will come around, particularly when they stop pining for the E39. It's inevitable because the car is too good to be measured on looks alone. The E39 already, in a matter of 7 or 8 months, is looking like a relic. The wedge shape ensured that was the only possibility. There is absolutely nothing classic about the E39. Neither it or the E60 will age well. > Still a pity about the looks, though. ;-) Not to me. In fact I admire BMW for reaching out a bit on the styling. Having said that, I am still not completely comfortable with the looks of the car. The high window sills bother me a bit as does the front end, but as I said before, I am not one of those people who care greatly about looks or about what other people think. I'm lucky that way I guess, I get to make my choices rather than someone else's. > > There's nothing new about people claiming their car, or 'a' car is > > perfect. > I think there is. Aside from the 911 Good grief. A flawed design honed to perfection, maybe. But I've never heard it claimed to be the perfect car. Fun and enjoyable, yes. > I can't think of another time, in > my life, when a car available to the public was exclaimed to be perfect. > And this came from not only laymen but magazine reviewers (for those who > value such opinions) as well, and the general population bought it lock, > stock and barrel. Must be a US thing - this wasn't the case in the UK. > > It's simply a figure of speech. > I think it's far more than that. Particularly amongst BMW drivers it was > almost gospel that the E39 was practically perfect. The E39 was a > fantastic automobile, but harbored a numbers of faults and warts. As do all cars. And what's fine to someone is a 'wart' to someone else. > > What you may claim is that a car is the > > best in class, and IMHO the E39 was when introduced, and for some time > > afterwards, and this was acknowledged by much of the press. > I think the same, in fact I believe I have said that a couple times in > this very thread. Once again though, the "press" had, and has, nothing > to do with what I think of any car or what I think of what I think :^) I > don't need their agreement. I merely take note of what they say. The S type Jag was a contender when I bought my E39, but I was very disappointed with my prolonged test drive. But even my favourite mag hadn't really headed up the things I disliked about it. But when it was revised some years later, all the things I disliked had been improved, and that same mag said about time too... Signature*Parenthetical remarks (however relevant) are (usually) unnecessary * Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn > > > There's nothing new about people claiming their car, or 'a' car is > > > perfect. > > > I think there is. Aside from the 911 > > Good grief. Oh no :^) I thinks it's the best car on the market, particularly the 996 platform. I also think the only truly attractive car (with reasonable price tag) is the XK8. And if money were not a consideration I could go with either DB9 or DB7 for shear styling accomplishment (nothing German or Italian, thank you). Probably like the 7 a bit more though. BMW's...any BMW's look like drafthorses next to these beauties. RJM <w5lx@hotmail.com> haute in die Tasten: > My question regarding this post > is: Since Bangle has been kicked upstairs, how long do we have to wait > for a re-design of the 5-Series? I currently have a 2003 E39 and would > be interested in the E60 if they would revise the bodywork a bit so the > car didn't look like a rejected Pontiac. Well, the answer seems to be quite obvious. There is a number of prospective buyers of a car of this class, who do like the new design, and there is a number of prospective buyers, who do not like it. Given the respectable sales figures from the major markets, the number of buyers who like the design seems to be large enough to make the car a success. So if you hope that the sucessor of the E60 will go into the direction of the E39 again, you will probably wait forever. Usually BMW will give the car a slight facelift after 4 years and introduce the successor after 7 years. If the car is an overwhelming success, they may build it longer, if sales figures drop below the marketing plan, they will make the facelift earlier. My guess is that they will make the E60 as long as they intended to. BTW: German car mag Auto Motor Sport just recetly published a comparison between Audi A6 3.2 TDI Quattro, BMW 530d and Mercedes 320 CDI. The BMW won. Frank Signatureplease replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact Time Flies Like An Arrow - Fruit Flies Like A Banana |
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