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Car Forum / BMW Cars / May 2004525 engine blew! :(
Hi. recently the timing belt on my e34 525 88' broke and the engine is now useless. I want to use this opportunity to give my car a little upgrade by putting a 535 engine. However, I do not know if this is possible and if the engine is compatible and whether i will have to do things in addition to the engine swap. what other engines can be used to give this 525 a little bit exrta power but that are not as expensive and that do not require any other modifications to the car? Finally, does anyone know a good place that sell such engines (new or used) in Quebec? Thanks alot! Imad You would need to also change the trans, radiator and ECU if you want to put a 535 in. Much cheaper to just buy an E34 535i. To fix your 525 it would probably be quickest and cheapest to just replace the whole head, valves and all. If you look around you should be able to find one for US$200 or less and it will save you having to replace the bent and broken valves and rockers. Any M20 2.5 litre head should do (77-91) as long as it's not warped or corroded. Check it against the back of a handsaw blade. A purist would use new headstuds too. May be worth replacing the water pump at the same time. Steve > Hi. > recently the timing belt on my e34 525 88' broke and the engine is now [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Thanks alot! > Imad >Any M20 2.5 litre head should do (77-91) In the U.S., at least, the 1991 525i was the first year of the M50 engine. I have two of them, and one of them has a build date of Nov. 1990. Dick Schneiders > >Any M20 2.5 litre head should do (77-91) > > In the U.S., at least, the 1991 525i was the first year of the M50 engine. I > have two of them, and one of them has a build date of Nov. 1990. Yeah, but M20's were still being sold until... what '94? Witness the '94 E30 325iC. I'm sure the E34 came with that engine in other markets for varying times. I agree with the prior poster about fixing the current M20 engine. You do not say how many miles you have on the rolling chassis, it may be worth investing in a fully rebuilt engine if the lower end is tired too. -Fred W Hi. Thanks for the feedback. I had about 250K Km (~155K miles) before the "crisis". I found a used engine from a 90' 525 that has ~110K miles for around $1000 CAD (~$750 USD). I dont know how this thing can be tested before it is installed. I am also not sure which is a better option for me: replacing the head and headstuds as Steve suggested, or opting for the used engine. In addition, I am not sure if there are other maintenance operations would be advisable to do now that the engine is out to save time and $$$. This thing couldnt come at a worse time but I want to seize the opportunity to do all that is necessary. For a newbie like me it is all too confusing. I appreciate your comments. Thanks Imad > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Hi. Thanks for the feedback. I had about 250K Km (~155K miles) before the "crisis". I found a used engine from a 90' 525 that has ~110K miles for around $1000 CAD (~$750 USD). I dont know how this thing can be tested before it is installed. I am also not sure which is a better option for me: replacing the head and headstuds as Steve suggested, or opting for the used engine. In addition, I am not sure if there are other maintenance operations would be advisable to do now that the engine is out to save time and $$$. This thing couldnt come at a worse time but I want to seize the opportunity to do all that is necessary. For a newbie like me it is all too confusing. I appreciate your comments. Thanks Imad > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Hi. Thanks for the feedback. I had about 250K Km (~155K miles) before the "crisis". I found a used engine from a 90' 525 that has ~110K miles for around $1000 CAD (~$750 USD). I dont know how this thing can be tested before it is installed. I am also not sure which is a better option for me: replacing the head and headstuds as Steve suggested, or opting for the used engine. In addition, I am not sure if there are other maintenance operations would be advisable to do now that the engine is out to save time and $$$. This thing couldnt come at a worse time but I want to seize the opportunity to do all that is necessary. For a newbie like me it is all too confusing. I appreciate your comments. Thanks Imad > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > > Hi. > Thanks for the feedback. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > opportunity to do all that is necessary. For a newbie like me it is all > too confusing. You have to consider labour costs - if you can do the work yourself then replacing the head is probably easier (& cheaper). You could put the head on from the used enigne, overhaul the "new" one with new crank bearings, piston rings etc etc etc then fit that one at a later date but it'll cost you more $$$. I just realized I did reply to all! sorry if you received multiple copies. :-[ Imad > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > > > >Any M20 2.5 litre head should do (77-91) > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > E30 325iC. I'm sure the E34 came with that engine in other markets for > varying times. The E30 convertible lasted until that time only because cars were still unsold. The E34 5er and E36 3er, for all markets, were built with the M50 motors from around Dec 1990 onwards. Having said that there were probably some unsold, m20-powered E34 5ers and E30 3ers sitting around throughout 1991. > The E30 convertible lasted until that time only because cars were > still unsold. The E34 5er and E36 3er, for all markets, were built > with the M50 motors from around Dec 1990 onwards. Having said that > there were probably some unsold, m20-powered E34 5ers and E30 3ers > sitting around throughout 1991. So you think that the convertibles were all built back in 1990 and continued to be sold for 4 more years? I doubt it. these were not 1990 leftovers... I would bet they did not want to tool up to build a new E36 convertible yet (in '91), but still wanted to have one to sell. So they continued it as an E30 through 1994. They apparently did not want to rework the E30 to accept an M50 engine, though it obviously could have been done, probably because the return on investment was in question. But in any case, if they had the engines around to put into E30 convertibles for 4 years, they also had them to put into E34's. I do not know if they actually did or not... -Fred W > > The E30 convertible lasted until that time only because cars were > > still unsold. The E34 5er and E36 3er, for all markets, were built [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > So you think that the convertibles were all built back in 1990 and continued > to be sold for 4 more years? I doubt it. these were not 1990 leftovers... E30 convertible and touring production ended, IIRC, in 1993. E36 saloon/coupe production continued at the same time. E30 tourings were still being sold throughout Europe as "new" well into 1994, despite having been built at least a year earlier; the last E30 convertible would have been built for the 1993 model year as the E36 convertible then came on stream, but no doubt the end-of-line models were still being offloaded as "new" cars even though an E36 convertible was available to order. We have to be careful here to distinguish between actual production dates, sales/marketing dates, registration dates, and the catch-all "model-year" description used in some markets. > I would bet they did not want to tool up to build a new E36 convertible yet > (in '91), but still wanted to have one to sell. So they continued it as an > E30 through 1994. They apparently did not want to rework the E30 to accept > an M50 engine, though it obviously could have been done, probably because > the return on investment was in question. Good point. > But in any case, if they had the engines around to put into E30 convertibles > for 4 years, they also had them to put into E34's. I do not know if they > actually did or not... No E34s with M50 engines were produced in 1991 - apart from anything else, there would have been no point, with less power and (more importantly) worse emissions. When The M50 engine came on stream in late 1990 with the new E36, the 5s were upgraded at around the same time. >No E34s with M50 engines were produced in 1991 - apart from anything >else, there would have been no point, with less power and (more >importantly) worse emissions. When The M50 engine came on stream in >late 1990 with the new E36, the 5s were upgraded at around the same >time. So should I understand from that that the M20 is better than the M50 (comparing 1989-91 M20 to 1991-94? M50)? If so, what advantages would there be in upgrading from an M20 to an M50 and is it worth the $$$? Imad > So should I understand from that that the M20 is better than the M50 > (comparing 1989-91 M20 to 1991-94? M50)? The M20 is a sweet engine, but at the end of its line. The M50 is the start of a new generation, and IMHO one of the greats. And it don't have no rubber bands to break. ;-) > If so, what advantages would there be in upgrading from an M20 to an > M50 and is it worth the $$$? Strange question. You're getting a newer car thrown in. The advent of the M50 also saw the first ZF 5-speed auto in Europe which was also a great step forward.  Signature*Plagiarism saves time * Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn I've got 2 E34 M20's (89 and 90) both with ZF 5 speed autos. Steve > > So should I understand from that that the M20 is better than the M50 > > (comparing 1989-91 M20 to 1991-94? M50)? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 > RIP Acorn will they work on a manual car? (it may seem like a silly question to you, but i really dont know the answer!!!) If so, would you be willing to part with one of them ? :) Imad >I've got 2 E34 M20's (89 and 90) both with ZF 5 speed autos. > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > I need them in order to drive the cars (they're fitted) which are in New Zealand. If you want to up your HP a bit, a tried and tested favourite national past-time is to remove the catalytic converter. Either smash it out with a bar or get a muffler shop to replace it with a straight length of exhaust pipe. Once removed, on the E34 you pull up the back seat and remove the forward most large yellow relay so you don't get the warning message and the "bing". E34 will get about 60-100 kms more distance per tank and will accelerate better too. I'd only recommend this if you don't have emissions testing though. Apart from that, you're asking for trouble and big $$$ expenses if you mess around too much with a 2.5l E34. Best to leave it an automatic 2.5 litre, or sell it and get a 535 or 540. Steve will they work on a manual car? (it may seem like a silly question to you, but i really dont know the answer!!!) If so, would you be willing to part with one of them ? :) Imad Steve Burley wrote: I've got 2 E34 M20's (89 and 90) both with ZF 5 speed autos. Steve In article <mWtjc.52130$iX1.832036@news20.bellglobal.com>, So should I understand from that that the M20 is better than the M50 (comparing 1989-91 M20 to 1991-94? M50)? The M20 is a sweet engine, but at the end of its line. The M50 is the start of a new generation, and IMHO one of the greats. And it don't have no rubber bands to break. ;-) If so, what advantages would there be in upgrading from an M20 to an M50 and is it worth the $$$? Strange question. You're getting a newer car thrown in. The advent of the M50 also saw the first ZF 5-speed auto in Europe which was also a great step forward. -- *Plagiarism saves time * Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn I thought initially you had them lying around! then I realized that you probably meant fitted! :) I actually cannot do the converter removal as it is illegal here. The reason why I thought of putting an M50 in place of my M20, which has its timing belt break, is to capitalize on the rare opportunity! I read that the M50 is a better engine in every way, quieter more powerful better on fuel economy and easier to maintain. But I am not sure if installing it is worth it. I do not know what else I would need to change in my car. The operation of putting in a used M20 will cost me around $1500-2000 CAD as quoted by my mechanic. so if putting the M50 instead will not be too much more money, then I would like to go for it. Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks Imad > I need them in order to drive the cars (they're fitted) which are in > New Zealand. [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >> >> M50 is definitely a better engine, but would be expensive to fit to your car, considering that you should just be able to replace the head and all should be ok. Steve I thought initially you had them lying around! then I realized that you probably meant fitted! :) I actually cannot do the converter removal as it is illegal here. The reason why I thought of putting an M50 in place of my M20, which has its timing belt break, is to capitalize on the rare opportunity! I read that the M50 is a better engine in every way, quieter more powerful better on fuel economy and easier to maintain. But I am not sure if installing it is worth it. I do not know what else I would need to change in my car. The operation of putting in a used M20 will cost me around $1500-2000 CAD as quoted by my mechanic. so if putting the M50 instead will not be too much more money, then I would like to go for it. Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks Imad Steve Burley wrote: I need them in order to drive the cars (they're fitted) which are in New Zealand. If you want to up your HP a bit, a tried and tested favourite national past-time is to remove the catalytic converter. Either smash it out with a bar or get a muffler shop to replace it with a straight length of exhaust pipe. Once removed, on the E34 you pull up the back seat and remove the forward most large yellow relay so you don't get the warning message and the "bing". E34 will get about 60-100 kms more distance per tank and will accelerate better too. I'd only recommend this if you don't have emissions testing though. Apart from that, you're asking for trouble and big $$$ expenses if you mess around too much with a 2.5l E34. Best to leave it an automatic 2.5 litre, or sell it and get a 535 or 540. Steve "Imad Al-Ghouleh" <ighoul@po-box.mcgill.ca> wrote in message news:nJDjc.69138$iX1.1017167@news20.bellglobal.com... will they work on a manual car? (it may seem like a silly question to you, but i really dont know the answer!!!) If so, would you be willing to part with one of them ? :) Imad Steve Burley wrote: I've got 2 E34 M20's (89 and 90) both with ZF 5 speed autos. Steve In article <mWtjc.52130$iX1.832036@news20.bellglobal.com>, So should I understand from that that the M20 is better than the M50 (comparing 1989-91 M20 to 1991-94? M50)? The M20 is a sweet engine, but at the end of its line. The M50 is the start of a new generation, and IMHO one of the greats. And it don't have no rubber bands to break. ;-) If so, what advantages would there be in upgrading from an M20 to an M50 and is it worth the $$$? Strange question. You're getting a newer car thrown in. The advent of the M50 also saw the first ZF 5-speed auto in Europe which was also a great step forward. -- *Plagiarism saves time * Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn Hi Steve, I actually spoke to my mechanic about just replacing the head and he said that usually this is what he does, but in my case since my engine has been burning oil for some time (i add a liter every 2 weeks! for the last year or so) as well as much higher gas mileage than usual in addition to the fact that my injectors need replacing since they dont work as expected (and that is noticeable when i drive as I feel a tremendous loss in power on some days associated with "pinging" of the engine at around 3000 - 4000 rpm) and finally as a result spark plugs dont last as long because of the previous problems, he decided that it was the most cost effective answer to my problems (replacing the engine that is). Do you think I am being duped or is there sense in what he told me? In any case, if I do go with his advice and replance the engine, approximately how much more work (and $$$) will it cost me if the new engine was an M50 instead of an M20? Thanks alot. Cheers Imad > M50 is definitely a better engine, but would be expensive to fit to > your car, considering that you should just be able to replace the head [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] >>> >>> >Hi Steve, >I actually spoke to my mechanic about just replacing the head and he said that usually this is what he does, but in my case since my engine has been burning >oil for some time (i add a liter every 2 weeks! for the last year or so) as well as much higher gas mileage than usual in addition to the fact that my injectors need >replacing since they dont work as expected (and that is noticeable when i drive as I feel a tremendous loss in power on some days associated with "pinging" of >the engine at around 3000 - 4000 rpm) and finally as a result spark plugs dont last as long because of the previous problems, he decided that it was the most >cost effective answer to my problems (replacing the engine that is). Do you think I am being duped or is there sense in what he told me? >In any case, if I do go with his advice and replance the engine, approximately how much more work (and $$$) will it cost me if the new engine was an M50 instead >of an M20? >Thanks alot. >Cheers >Imad Althought the Project Orca CD was intended for the addition of the twin cam M50 or even S50 head to the M20 block, I imagine it should answer most your questions in the level of detail that would be directly relevent if you were actually attempting a full swap. For the cost of it vs. the effort you're talking about expending it seems like a no-brainer. A single part purchased incorrectly or erroneously would pay for the CD in many cases. Have a look at it and/or do some googles to see who has used it and what they thought. http://www.zionsvilleautosport.com/store/shop.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Codea34&Produ ct_Code=ETCCC&Category_Code=S -Russ "Imad Al-Ghouleh" <ighoul@po-box.mcgill.ca> wrote in message news:lP7kc.10637$k%.341270@news20.bellglobal.com... >Hi Steve, >I actually spoke to my mechanic about just replacing the head and he said that usually this is what he does, but in my case since my engine has been burning >oil for some time (i add a liter every 2 weeks! for the last year or so) as well as much higher gas mileage than usual in addition to the fact that my injectors need >replacing since they dont work as expected (and that is noticeable when i drive as I feel a tremendous loss in power on some days associated with "pinging" of >the engine at around 3000 - 4000 rpm) and finally as a result spark plugs dont last as long because of the previous problems, he decided that it was the most >cost effective answer to my problems (replacing the engine that is). Do you think I am being duped or is there sense in what he told me? >In any case, if I do go with his advice and replance the engine, approximately how much more work (and $$$) will it cost me if the new engine was an M50 instead >of an M20? >Thanks alot. >Cheers >Imad Althought the Project Orca CD was intended for the addition of the twin cam M50 or even S50 head to the M20 block, I imagine it should answer most your questions in the level of detail that would be directly relevent if you were actually attempting a full swap. For the cost of it vs. the effort you're talking about expending it seems like a no-brainer. A single part purchased incorrectly or erroneously would pay for the CD in many cases. Have a look at it and/or do some googles to see who has used it and what they thought. http://www.zionsvilleautosport.com/store/shop.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Codea34&Produ ct_Code=ETCCC&Category_Code=S -Russ. You know I was looking at it -- I always thought it was for converting the heads but I'm thinking now it probably is for the entire engine. I have understood from casual discussions with people that you can actually put the M50 heads on the M20, which when you're looking at an iX like I am is useful because of the iX-specific bottom end. Anyway maybe give the Zionsville guys a call. -Russ great! thanks a million. Imad > "Imad Al-Ghouleh" <ighoul@po-box.mcgill.ca > <mailto:ighoul@po-box.mcgill.ca>> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > -Russ. > In any case, if I do go with his advice and replance the engine, > approximately how much more work (and $$$) will it cost me if the new > engine was an M50 instead of an M20? If you bought a complete donor car cheaply - perhaps a wreck - and were up to swapping the engine and bits yourself, it *might* be worth it. To pay someone to do it will cost more than buying a decent car already fitted with an M50. Signature*Why are a wise man and a wise guy opposites? Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn Sounds like a whole engine will be needed then. If you stick with the M20 it will cost you much less and your car will be back on the road much sooner. If you want more power it would probably be cheaper to just fit a small block chev - now would be the perfect time to consider it. Steve Hi Steve, I actually spoke to my mechanic about just replacing the head and he said that usually this is what he does, but in my case since my engine has been burning oil for some time (i add a liter every 2 weeks! for the last year or so) as well as much higher gas mileage than usual in addition to the fact that my injectors need replacing since they dont work as expected (and that is noticeable when i drive as I feel a tremendous loss in power on some days associated with "pinging" of the engine at around 3000 - 4000 rpm) and finally as a result spark plugs dont last as long because of the previous problems, he decided that it was the most cost effective answer to my problems (replacing the engine that is). Do you think I am being duped or is there sense in what he told me? In any case, if I do go with his advice and replance the engine, approximately how much more work (and $$$) will it cost me if the new engine was an M50 instead of an M20? Thanks alot. Cheers Imad Steve Burley wrote: M50 is definitely a better engine, but would be expensive to fit to your car, considering that you should just be able to replace the head and all should be ok. Steve "Imad Al-Ghouleh" <ighoul@po-box.mcgill.ca> wrote in message news:_DFjc.70520$iX1.1085738@news20.bellglobal.com... I thought initially you had them lying around! then I realized that you probably meant fitted! :) I actually cannot do the converter removal as it is illegal here. The reason why I thought of putting an M50 in place of my M20, which has its timing belt break, is to capitalize on the rare opportunity! I read that the M50 is a better engine in every way, quieter more powerful better on fuel economy and easier to maintain. But I am not sure if installing it is worth it. I do not know what else I would need to change in my car. The operation of putting in a used M20 will cost me around $1500-2000 CAD as quoted by my mechanic. so if putting the M50 instead will not be too much more money, then I would like to go for it. Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks Imad Steve Burley wrote: I need them in order to drive the cars (they're fitted) which are in New Zealand. If you want to up your HP a bit, a tried and tested favourite national past-time is to remove the catalytic converter. Either smash it out with a bar or get a muffler shop to replace it with a straight length of exhaust pipe. Once removed, on the E34 you pull up the back seat and remove the forward most large yellow relay so you don't get the warning message and the "bing". E34 will get about 60-100 kms more distance per tank and will accelerate better too. I'd only recommend this if you don't have emissions testing though. Apart from that, you're asking for trouble and big $$$ expenses if you mess around too much with a 2.5l E34. Best to leave it an automatic 2.5 litre, or sell it and get a 535 or 540. Steve "Imad Al-Ghouleh" <ighoul@po-box.mcgill.ca> wrote in message news:nJDjc.69138$iX1.1017167@news20.bellglobal.com... will they work on a manual car? (it may seem like a silly question to you, but i really dont know the answer!!!) If so, would you be willing to part with one of them ? :) Imad Steve Burley wrote: I've got 2 E34 M20's (89 and 90) both with ZF 5 speed autos. Steve In article <mWtjc.52130$iX1.832036@news20.bellglobal.com>, So should I understand from that that the M20 is better than the M50 (comparing 1989-91 M20 to 1991-94? M50)? The M20 is a sweet engine, but at the end of its line. The M50 is the start of a new generation, and IMHO one of the greats. And it don't have no rubber bands to break. ;-) If so, what advantages would there be in upgrading from an M20 to an M50 and is it worth the $$$? Strange question. You're getting a newer car thrown in. The advent of the M50 also saw the first ZF 5-speed auto in Europe which was also a great step forward. -- *Plagiarism saves time * Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn Sounds like a whole engine will be needed then. If you stick with the M20 it will cost you much less and your car will be back on the road much sooner. If you want more power it would probably be cheaper to just fit a small block chev - now would be the perfect time to consider it. Blasphemy!! If you put a chevy V8 in a BMW you have removed the heart of the car!! Just go with a rebuilt M20 engine and if you want a more poiwerful car, sell this one and find the car you really want. You'll be way ahead in the long run... -Fred W Hi, what is a "small block chev" ? Thanks! Imad > Sounds like a whole engine will be needed then. If you stick with the > M20 it will cost you much less and your car will be back on the road [quoted text clipped - 120 lines] >>>> >>>> How close are you to Ohio? 1992 735 parts car. hit front, no interior. rolling shell with engine, transmission, diff. misc. body parts. $750. all or parts Joe Crusse - h 440.357.5930, cell 440.343.4685 or jmcrusse@netzero.com (3/16/04) I found this on the web. Any use to you? SignatureUsenet special: on cases of any filters for BMW: http://u.bmwz.org http://www.mbz.org | Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Orkut:RS79 Classifieds: http://ads.mbz.org 2 X 280SE 350SLC | Watches list: http://watches.list.mbz.org Thanks Richard. I am in Montreal. After much deliberation I opted to have my engine rebuilt. I am still waiting for it to finish. Thanks again for the info. Imad >How close are you to Ohio? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > >Thanks Richard. I am in Montreal. Oh THAT mcgill. Sorry, I didn't notice. SignatureUsenet special: on cases of any filters for BMW: http://u.bmwz.org http://www.mbz.org | Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Orkut:RS79 Classifieds: http://ads.mbz.org 2 X 280SE 350SLC | Watches list: http://watches.list.mbz.org no probs! so theres another mcgill?! nice to know that. Imad > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > I've got 2 E34 M20's (89 and 90) both with ZF 5 speed autos. Strange. It arrived with the M50 engine in the UK - and to a fair amount of noise about it being new. Signature*No word in the English language rhymes with month, orange, silver,purple Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn Mine are both German assembled for the Japanese market (imported from there). Steve > > I've got 2 E34 M20's (89 and 90) both with ZF 5 speed autos. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 > RIP Acorn |
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