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Car Forum / BMW Cars / June 2004Fuel prices in Europe ?
Following the thread on the "rise and rise of diesel..." It would be interesting to find out what the current prices are for fuel in the various European countries and any forthcoming changes that are planned. ----------------------------------------------------------------- In the UK..........as at 14th July 2p/litre tax due to be added around September Cheapest is generally found at Supermarkets and is currently Diesel - around 81p/ltr U/L 95 octane Petrol - around 80p/ltr Heating oil - around 24p/ltr ------------------------------------------------------------------ France ??? anyone ? They sell heating oil at supermarket gas stations?.. wow Don't know about Euro gas (petrol) prices, but for comparison purposes, here in Eastern Ontario it is $0.81cdn per litre which would be around 32.5p UK.. is it any wonder that you guys drive cars with small engines.. > Following the thread on the "rise and rise of diesel..." > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > France ??? anyone ? > Following the thread on the "rise and rise of diesel..." > > It would be interesting to find out what the current prices are for > fuel in the various European countries http://www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/fuel/motfue001.html > > Following the thread on the "rise and rise of diesel..." > > > > It would be interesting to find out what the current prices are for > > fuel in the various European countries > > http://www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/fuel/motfue001.html and it is clear now why the US has the biggest gas guzzlers out there. I would love to see what happens here in the US if the gas prices make it to the Netherlands' price level. > > > Following the thread on the "rise and rise of diesel..." > > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > would love to see what happens here in the US if the gas prices make it to > the Netherlands' price level. Other than probably seeing cars with better mileage I think nothing would happen. If there is a country in which fuel prices would not be a great deterent, the United States is it. We are basically a country that believes we earn to a level of our needs rather than one who believes we adjust our needs to our earning levels. It's that damn optimism. It's one of the things I love about America. We feel perfectly comfortable expressing and acting upon optimism. > If there is a country in which fuel prices would not be a great deterent, > the United States is it. We are basically a country that believes we earn to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It's one of the things I love about America. We feel perfectly comfortable > expressing and acting upon optimism. we simply increase minimum wage to accommodate the higher gas prices. Prices are presently rising everywhere because of the risng price of crude. The percentage effect should be lower in most countries than in North America and some Gulf (Persian that is) states because of the high (fixed) amount of tax. Until recently the price of standard petrol was about EUR 1.05 - 1.15 across much of western Europe. The UK government has anounced a possible moratorium on the implementation of the planned 2 pence/l tax increase because the truckers were threatening another 'riot' and the main opposition party (Conservatives) openly called for (lawful, of course) protests against the rise. In London standard 95 Octane (c. 90/91 US) is pushing 85 pence per litre, closing in on the GBP 4 per Imperial gallon mark. When the price was approaching GBP 2 per gallon the oil companies switched to selling in litres because of the political sensitivity of breaching the 2 pound barrier. But it is mostly the government's fault because of the taxes it piles on. DAS  SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- > > Following the thread on the "rise and rise of diesel..." > > > > It would be interesting to find out what the current prices are for > > fuel in the various European countries > > http://www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/fuel/motfue001.html The only reason fuel prices are so high in Europe is because of taxes. The Labour government in particular adopts a tax and spend policy and so 75% of the price of Petrol is Tax. But it is worse than that. You earn an extra pound and only receive 59p (41% tax rate) then when you spend that 59p another 45p goes in more tax, so you have to earn £1 to get 14p of petrol after paying 86p tax! >Following the thread on the "rise and rise of diesel..." > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >France ??? anyone ? SignatureJohnPerry@redoak.co.ukNOSPAM (delete NOSPAM) www.redoak.co.uk www.eze-buy.co.uk > The only reason fuel prices are so high in Europe is because of taxes. > The Labour government in particular adopts a tax and spend policy and so [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (41% tax rate) then when you spend that 59p another 45p goes in more > tax, so you have to earn ?1 to get 14p of petrol after paying 86p tax! What about car registration? I registered (licensed) a 545i earlier this year and the state of Colorado hit me for $ 1,400.00. This is not a sales tax, much of this tax is supposed to go towards roads and highways. Obviously that's about $ 110.00 per month in car tax. For someone who gases up about once per week that raises their cost to about 4 bucks a gallon. Do you guys have anything like that? I am just wondering if we pay similar "use" tax, but instead pay ours at the government office rather than the gas pump. In the UK annual registration/road tax (correct name is Vehicle Excise Duty) is about GBP 150 - GBP 160 per annum for most cars. Is the US tax also per year? Basis for levy and amount varies across Europe. I can't remember the rates for Germany but somebody will chime in, I am sure. In UK from 2002 it's CO2-emission, in Germany it's still engine-size dependent, I think. DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- > > The only reason fuel prices are so high in Europe is because of taxes. > > The Labour government in particular adopts a tax and spend policy and so [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I am just wondering if we pay similar "use" tax, but instead pay ours at the > government office rather than the gas pump. > In the UK annual registration/road tax (correct name is Vehicle Excise Duty) > is about GBP 150 - GBP 160 per annum for most cars. > > Is the US tax also per year? Yes, and because it is price dependent it lowers each year as the car depreciates. But it is apparent some of the tax revenue collected in Europe at the gas pump is collected instead at the registration office in the US. I think if we really considered all the potential impact to cost of operating a car, for the average driver running 12 to 15 thousand miles per year, we would find that Europe and the US are about par......with it being nothing more than a matter of where and how taxes are collected. Our cigarettes are taxed like your gasoline. And I wish our income tax was a cunsumptive tax as well, but the government would never give us that much choice :^) By any chance do you get a break from standard sales tax when you buy the car? In the US if our local sales tax rate is 7.8%, then that is exactly what we will pay on the total cost of the car, unless we lease. In that case we pay tax on the lease payment amount only. Nope. In UK VAT (sales tax) is 17.5%. Applies to cars too. In Germany it's 16%. In other European countries it's different again, but nowhere less than 15% in the EU. (Note that a number of classes of goods and services are exempt from VAT in the UK, and not all goods are subject to the full 16% in Germany.) In the UK the government tries to limit any tax breaks even for business. In private leasing agreements I am not sure what the relief from VAT is, if any. In general it's probably cheapest for most private individuals in the UK to borrow with the home as security to get the lowest interest rates (other than paying cash, of course). Our ciggies are taxed like our gasoline, too... :-) DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- > > In the UK annual registration/road tax (correct name is Vehicle Excise > Duty) [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > what we will pay on the total cost of the car, unless we lease. In that case > we pay tax on the lease payment amount only. > Nope. In UK VAT (sales tax) is 17.5%. Applies to cars too. In Germany > it's 16%. In other European countries it's different again, but nowhere > less than 15% in the EU. Please don't take this as a smart-assed question....but what exactly do you get from the government in return for a 40% income tax, 16% sales tax, and a massive tax on auto fuels. I mean do you guys have any money left after they run you thru the ringer? By the way, "VAT" is an acronym for what? >> Nope. In UK VAT (sales tax) is 17.5%. Applies to cars too. In Germany >> it's 16%. In other European countries it's different again, but nowhere [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >massive tax on auto fuels. I mean do you guys have any money left after they >run you thru the ringer? We get a lot of civil servants that we pay for, and in the UK there has been a massive increase in them while wealth creating industry and services have shown a much slower growth rate. We also are able to contribute to the EU. >By the way, "VAT" is an acronym for what? Value Added Tax called TAV in other parts of Europe. SignatureJohnPerry@redoak.co.ukNOSPAM (delete NOSPAM) www.redoak.co.uk www.eze-buy.co.uk And TVA in French-speaking countries, ie. Belgium (Wallonia) and France. BTW in Dutch speaking areas, ie. Belgium (Flanders) and The Netherlands. MWSt (Mehrwertsteuer) in Germany, maybe also in Austria. And I am sure there are another 10 versions in the 10 new EU members, whatever the local rendering of "value added tax" is. DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- [....] > >By the way, "VAT" is an acronym for what? > > > Value Added Tax called TAV in other parts of Europe. > Please don't take this as a smart-assed question....but what exactly do > you get from the government in return for a 40% income tax, 16% sales > tax, and a massive tax on auto fuels. I mean do you guys have any money > left after they run you thru the ringer? Well, you have to, given that a modest house in the South East of England will cost over half a million quid... Signature*The hardness of the butter is proportional to the softness of the bread * Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn > Well, you have to, given that a modest house in the South East of > England will cost over half a million quid... On top of which you have to pay another 4% property sales tax... > > Please don't take this as a smart-assed question....but what exactly do > > you get from the government in return for a 40% income tax, 16% sales [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Well, you have to, given that a modest house in the South East of England > will cost over half a million quid... So what you are saying is that the income levels are incredibly high, or over the entire scope of the tax burden it isn't as severe some specific taxes would seem to indicate. By the way....what the f.ck's a "quid"? :^) > > > Please don't take this as a smart-assed question....but what exactly do > > > you get from the government in return for a 40% income tax, 16% sales [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > By the way....what the f.ck's a "quid"? :^) A quid is 1GBP > By the way....what the f.ck's a "quid"? :^) I'd guess you'd expect me to know buck is slang for the dollar, so you've now learnt the slang for the pound. Signature*Is there another word for synonym? Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn Also note that it has no plural. Half a million quid or one quid.... A quid is a quid. DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- > > By the way....what the f.ck's a "quid"? :^) > > I'd guess you'd expect me to know buck is slang for the dollar, so you've > now learnt the slang for the pound. How about the expression "quids in" > Also note that it has no plural. Half a million quid or one quid.... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I'd guess you'd expect me to know buck is slang for the dollar, so you've > > now learnt the slang for the pound. Well spotted. There's an exception to test every rule... Maybe I overlooked it as I never feel more than quid in... DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- > How about the expression "quids in" > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > > DAS ...................... Neither did I when living in the UK.. I worked my a.s off there just to keep HMG sitting pretty.. nuts to that.. > Well spotted. There's an exception to test every rule... > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > > DAS > ...................... Dave Plowman <dave.sound@argonet.co.uk> haute in die Tasten: > I'd guess you'd expect me to know buck is slang for the dollar, so > you've now learnt the slang for the pound. Actually the Euro is too young to really have akquired a widely used nick name. But many people in Germany call it Teuro. The T comes from teuer=expensive, because everything has become so expensive after the Euro conversion. Frank Signatureplease replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact Citroen - Made in Trance > Dave Plowman <dave.sound@argonet.co.uk> haute in die Tasten: > Actually the Euro is too young to really have akquired a widely used > nick name. But many people in Germany call it Teuro. The T comes from > teuer=expensive, because everything has become so expensive after the > Euro conversion. A "duber" is a single unit of currency not native to your own. So for me, a duber would be a Pound in Britain, a Euro in the EU, a Lei in Romania, etc. So the fuel costs a lot of dubers in Europe and a lot of dollars in the States. And that M3 that I want to order *soon* will be drinking a lot of fuel. :) In what language/country? DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- [........] > A "duber" is a single unit of currency not native to your own. So for me, a > duber would be a Pound in Britain, a Euro in the EU, a Lei in Romania, etc. [............] >>Nope. In UK VAT (sales tax) is 17.5%. Applies to cars too. In Germany >>it's 16%. In other European countries it's different again, but nowhere [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > massive tax on auto fuels. I mean do you guys have any money left after they > run you thru the ringer? In Holland, the average wage earner pays about 37,5% income tax, but this can increase up to 50% if you earn more than 55,000-60,000 EUR a year. There's a 19% VAT (Value Added Tax) or sales tax (although some products are subject to a 6% VAT, but not many), gasoline recently hit 1.25 EUR cents a liter (I think something like 75% is taxes), a 20 pack of Marlboros costs 3,50 EUR (again maybe up to 75% is tax, but am not sure), and a pint of beer in the pub is 4.5EUR For this we get: - the Netherlands is the biggest per capita contributor to the EU (Oh, joy!!) - the quality of the national railway carrier is unacceptable by Western European standards, yet they keep jacking up the prices of train tickets at twice the inflation rate; - there's a distressing shortage of hospital personnel, leading to alarmingly long waiting lists for life-saving surgery, transplantations and/or other medical treatment (some people actually travel abroad to be able to get treatment on time); - A burgeoning civil servant apparatus with a 34 hour work week, 40 free days a year, and all secondary benefits paid for by the Government (pension plans, health insurance, child care, etc...) AND the Dutch economy is sputtering towards a less than 1% growth this, AND next year. And our budget deficit has breached the 3% of the GDP barrier imposed by the Stability Pact of the EU, so now we're looking at hefty fines for this transgression too. Actually, and I'm being serious, I can't really think of anything positive that *I* get out of the whole deal. > In Holland, the average wage earner pays about 37,5% income tax, > but this can increase up to 50% if you earn more than 55,000-60,000 [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > 40 free days a year, and all secondary benefits paid for by the > Government (pension plans, health insurance, child care, etc...) I don't know your political bent, so please don't take offense if we're not your favorite country, but this sounds suspiciously like the US. The only difference is your civil servants admit to working less than forty hours :^) > AND the Dutch economy is sputtering towards a less than 1% growth > this, AND next year. And our budget deficit has breached the 3% of > the GDP barrier imposed by the Stability Pact of the EU, so now we're > looking at hefty fines for this transgression too. I think you're safe. If that penalize you they have to hit France and Germany for their continuing self-centerness in this regard. And since those two have the juice I suspect Holland is safe....at least until those two get their own houses in order and comply with EU regulations. > Actually, and I'm being serious, I can't really think of anything > positive that *I* get out of the whole deal. Well you, like us, get something for your taxes, but I think it's certain neither of us are getting the extra value deal. By the way, I haven't had the pleasure of visiting Holland yet, I always opt for your Caribbean properties instead.....Bonaire being my favorite. But my brother-in-law is in the oil biz and frequently goes to Rotterdam. His wife won't go with him on any business trips anywhere else in the world but she loves visiting Holland. She just raves about the way you guys care for your houses and properties, and the general kindness of the people. I find that high praise. >> - the Netherlands is the biggest per capita contributor to the EU >> (Oh, joy!!) [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > your favorite country, but this sounds suspiciously like the US. The only > difference is your civil servants admit to working less than forty hours :^) :-) And I like the U.S. Our civil boys and gals don't admit to *working* less than forty hours. 34 hours is what it says on their job contracts. The amount they actually *work* is way less than that. For instance, I needed to take 1/2 a day off just to be able to renew my driver's license (and pay 50 EUR for the privilege) >>AND the Dutch economy is sputtering towards a less than 1% growth >>this, AND next year. And our budget deficit has breached the 3% of >>the GDP barrier imposed by the Stability Pact of the EU, so now we're >>looking at hefty fines for this transgression too. > I think you're safe. If that penalize you they have to hit France and > Germany for their continuing self-centerness in this regard. And since those > two have the juice I suspect Holland is safe....at least until those two get > their own houses in order and comply with EU regulations. The thing is France and Germany 0wn the place, so they can dictate the rules. Like Germany simply flipped the bird at the EU when it turned out they can't keep to the 3% or less limit. But Holland likes to let itself be slapped about. We're so nice. > By the way, I haven't had the pleasure of visiting Holland yet, I always opt > for your Caribbean properties instead.....Bonaire being my favorite. But my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > houses and properties, and the general kindness of the people. I find that > high praise. Thanks. The people are nice. Just not those in Government. And we voted for them, oh the irony of it all... EXCUSE MEEE! Our (UK) railways are shittier than yours... DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- [...] > - the quality of the national railway carrier is unacceptable by > Western European standards, yet they keep jacking up the prices > of train tickets at twice the inflation rate; ................. > EXCUSE MEEE! Our (UK) railways are shittier than yours... > > DAS I have no idea about UK railways. But you guys invented the damn thing! I only traveled once by train from Nuneaton to Coventry. Wasn't that bad. Our train boys failed to deliver on a deal which promised that at least 83% of trains will depart and arrive on time. They managed something like 80%. Now, I woudn't mind this if I'm commuting in Southern Moldavia or the mountain ranges of Northern Kyrgyzstan, but not from The Hague to Amsterdam. Because they failed to deliver, the Government nixed their plan to raise prices for the second time in a year. Now, six months later, they eked out an imposing 84%. As a reward, they've still been allowed to have their price hike. Insanity. So? We invented football and? Did you see this classic example of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory on Sunday night? England lost to France 2-1 in the last 2/3 min of the game (having been 1-0 up). The consolation is that more than half the French team consisted of players whose day job is in English club football.... Now really drifting OT, wasn't the NL-Germany game a bit of a bore? France-England was much better, wasn't it, more interesting to watch? DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- > > EXCUSE MEEE! Our (UK) railways are shittier than yours... > > > > DAS > > I have no idea about UK railways. But you guys invented the > damn thing! [..........] > So? We invented football and? Point taken. > Did you see this classic example of snatching defeat from the jaws of > victory on Sunday night? England lost to France 2-1 in the last 2/3 min of > the game (having been 1-0 up). The consolation is that more than half the > French team consisted of players whose day job is in English club > football.... I watched parts. The missed penalty, the unfortunate back pass... For what it's worth, France is a better team. The question is, are the French players so good because they play in the Premier League, or were they acquired into the PL because they are good? Most of the Brits play in the PL (IIRC), which sort of spoils the answer already : ) > Now really drifting OT, wasn't the NL-Germany game a bit of a bore? > France-England was much better, wasn't it, more interesting to watch? Yeah, definitely. The Dutch team sucks. I won't dispute that. So does the German squad. I'm putting my eggs in the French basket this time around. But now we're getting way OT.... Do you have a model BMW to push around from TV set to TV set...?... BTW, we also invented cricket and the West Indies (ex-Colonies) thrash us... DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- [...............] > But now we're getting way OT.... > Do you have a model BMW to push around from TV set to TV set...?... No, I wish. Maybe I'll get one for my birthday. > BTW, we also invented cricket and the West Indies (ex-Colonies) thrash us... > > DAS That's the only way they can get back at you for forcing that game on them. ;-) > Now really drifting OT, wasn't the NL-Germany game a bit of a bore? > France-England was much better, wasn't it, more interesting to watch? And I thought the one place I might be free of boring soccer talk was a US based BMW group... Signature*We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then things get worse. Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn We have to remind those chaps there is The Beautiful Game... :-) DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- > > Now really drifting OT, wasn't the NL-Germany game a bit of a bore? > > France-England was much better, wasn't it, more interesting to watch? > > And I thought the one place I might be free of boring soccer talk was a US > based BMW group... > > EXCUSE MEEE! Our (UK) railways are shittier than yours... > > > > DAS > I have no idea about UK railways. But you guys invented the > damn thing! > I only traveled once by train from Nuneaton to Coventry. > Wasn't that bad. Most people in the UK who criticise the railways never use them. Or are regular commuters in rush hour. And use the excuse that 10% (or whatever) of trains don't run on time to extol the virtues of car commuting. As if *only* 10% of car commuter journeys were less than perfect. Signature*What happens when none of your bees wax? * Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn I travel by train. You'll also note I said we could have better trains if... What about the London - Glasgow service. When first launched decades ago it was supposed to have a journey time of 5 h. How often did it actually manage that? Then they changed the timetables to reflect reality. I can compare 'prestige' routes in the UK, Germany, France and other places. I can also tell you that about three years ago I took the train from Hong Kong to Guangzhou, an approx 1.75-hour journey. The train left on time, arrived on time, was reasonably well appointed inside and had good seat-side hot-food service. I don't recall travelling first class, either. I am also 'happy' to report that the TGV-based Eurostar trains were looking tired (London - Paris under the Channel for those who don't know) last year, but that was before new trains were being taken into service last autumn. In fact all railway services suffer from problems, something to which I alluded when referring to the Spiegel article in an earlier post. DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- [.......] > Most people in the UK who criticise the railways never use them. Or are > regular commuters in rush hour. And use the excuse that 10% (or whatever) > of trains don't run on time to extol the virtues of car commuting. As if > *only* 10% of car commuter journeys were less than perfect. >>>EXCUSE MEEE! Our (UK) railways are shittier than yours... >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Most people in the UK who criticise the railways never use them. Or are What do they base their criticisms on then? > regular commuters in rush hour. And use the excuse that 10% (or whatever) > of trains don't run on time to extol the virtues of car commuting. Isn't that what really counts? If I take the train once and don't have to change trains, then I couldn't care less if I arrived 10 minutes later: the museums are open all day. On the other hand, if I take the train to work every single day, including changing trains within a 5 min. margin, then the little annoyances begin to add up after you've missed your connection and have had to wait 30 minutes one too many times. I know you'll say that commuting by car does not guarantee you'll arrive on time, on average, it's probably worse than the train. But that's a different issue. The issue is whether the train services can deliver what they promise. As I said in an earlier post, if you come from Kyrgysztan, you will probably be overjoyed with the fact that 80% of trains arrive on time. But not so if you're from around here. Now only if those trains were made by BMW, to justify our lively discussion on this here newsgroup.... The 40% are a marginal rate which starts at just above average income. The starting rate of income tax, after the tax-free base base, is 10%. The fact remains, unfortunately, that more people than ever are subject to the higher rate tax band because governments have deliberately never always adjusted for wage rises. There are other levies on income and I would say that the average tax take out of income is about 30 - 35%. It will be higher in some/all Scandinavian countries What we get for it is a good question, but we think we get roads, hospitals etc. We DON'T get a decent railway system, at least not in Britain... DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- > > Nope. In UK VAT (sales tax) is 17.5%. Applies to cars too. In Germany > > it's 16%. In other European countries it's different again, but nowhere [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > By the way, "VAT" is an acronym for what? > What we get for it is a good question, but we think we get roads, > hospitals etc. We DON'T get a decent railway system, at least not in > Britain... Depends on what you mean by decent. I'd say, despite the cuts over the years, there's still a station closer to most than in perhaps any other country, where only main routes are the norm. I must admit to only really using the old Southern Region - the local London service - much these days, and usually off peak, where I find it generally good. Signature*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn I don't agree that we have a denser station network. In my opinion we could have better railways if/when the tracks are sorted out and the new trains can enter service, but regional trains outside the south-east leave something to be desired. What's more, the stupid post-privatisation structure has to reformed so that there are clear lines of responsibility. (This is a criticism of the organisation, not ownership, which is another subject.) OTOH a few years ago in a Berlin hotel lobby I picked up a Spiegel -- serious weekly news magazine -- and read a series of articles about the railways. If I hadn't seen the word "Deutsche Bahn" everywhere I could have sworn they were writing about British Rail. Which is why we love our BMWs etc (to remind ourselves of the main topic...). DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- > > What we get for it is a good question, but we think we get roads, > > hospitals etc. We DON'T get a decent railway system, at least not in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > London service - much these days, and usually off peak, where I find it > generally good. > In UK from 2002 it's CO2-emission, in Germany it's still engine-size > dependent, I think. No: displacement x emission class. eg1: displacement. 2 ltrs, emission class euro 3, petrol engine, means: 20 (each 100 ccm is a step) x 5,60 Euro = 112 Euro annual taxes for owning the car. eg1A 545i 44x5,60=247 Euros eg2: displacement 3ltrs, diesel emission class euro 3 30 x 14 euro= 420 Euro eg3: displacement 4ltrs, diesel no emission class 40 x 45 Euro =1800 euro To this plz add costs for insurance (comprehensive and liability) a 545i in the cheapest insurance class (depends on the fact for how long you`ve been accident-free) with both insurances would add another 1200 euros Gas: diesel 0,90euro/litre 91: 1,15 95: 1,20 98: 1,25 J?rgen "Jess Englewood" <pleasen@spam.com> haute in die Tasten: > Do > you guys have anything like that? In Germany every car which wears a valid license plate is due to a car tax. This tax is calculated on the basis of the engine displacement and its emission standards. Gasoline engines without catalytic converters pay more than 25 Euros per 100 cc, so a 1980 Mercedes 500 costs some 1300 Euros per year. But a brand new Mercedes S500L which meets Euro 4, will only cost some 350 Euros, because it is cleaner. Taxes on Diesel passenger cars are much higher in order to compensate the lower tax on Diesel fuel (this is to protect commercial transportation, which is based on Diesel). So an old Mercedes 240 D will cost some 900 Euros per year, while a brand new BMW 525d will cost only 345 Euros per year. The government uses this tax deliberately to treat the people to buy newer, cleaner cars, although this tax savings will never pay your new car. But this tax principle drastically lowers the resale value of older cars. Many people (me included) demand to put the car tax away and rise the fuel tax, in order to let people pay tax according to the miles they travel instead of according the size of their engine. Problem: Fuel tax goes to the federal government in Berlin, while car tax is collected by the federal states;-) Frank Signatureplease replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact Time Flies Like An Arrow - Fruit Flies Like A Banana There are calls in the UK for something similar and there is not the same objection as the government collects everything, but there are other lobbies against the change. DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- [.......] > cars. Many people (me included) demand to put the car tax away and rise > the fuel tax, in order to let people pay tax according to the miles they [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Frank > What about car registration? I registered (licensed) a 545i earlier this > year and the state of Colorado hit me for $ 1,400.00. This is not a sales [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I am just wondering if we pay similar "use" tax, but instead pay ours at the > government office rather than the gas pump. In the Netherlands, you pay road tax based on the weight of your car and the type of fuel it uses. Diesel cars are subjected to much heavier taxes: a 2003 745iL will cost you about 70 EUR a month on road tax = 840EUR/year a 2003 740d is a staggering 140 EUR a month or about = 1680EUR/year On the other hand, a smaller car, like a 2.0 liter Peugeot 307 is about 37 EUR a month (444 EUR/year). The teensiest Fiat Panda with the 1.1 liter gasoline engine, weighing in at 815 kg, costs 15 EUR/month = 180EUR/year. Note that engine displacement or emission characteristics are not taken into consideration at all. A 20 year old car is therefore not taxed more heavily than a new one. The philosophy is that heavier cars are a bigger burden on roads and environment than lighter ones, period. You pay more for diesel, because diesel fuel prices are kept low to protect the commercial sector, so the Govt needs another way to cash in on passenger diesel cars. This led to some funny situations in which people would rip the back seat out of their station wagons, and register them as "cargo vans", which are considered commercial vehicles, for which you pay a lot less road tax: if I did this to my 3series diesel Touring, I'd pay 16EUR a month instead of 90! They've since changed the legal definition of "cargo vans" so that converting a station wagon becomes a rather involved job, requiring the raising of portions of the roof by 25 centimeters, and numerous other mods that make the whole ordeal prohibitive for the non-commercial would-be converter. All cars older than 25 years are exempt from road tax. Peter Similarly in the UK people were buying small vans without rear side windows until the government removed the tax advantage....and cars older than 25 years were exempt from tax until the date was fixed at 1973.. Money gets pulled from our pockets every which way... :-( DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- [............] > This led to > some funny situations in which people would rip the back seat out of their [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Peter > Similarly in the UK people were buying small vans without rear side windows > until the government removed the tax advantage....and cars older than 25 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > :-( > DAS I don't mind that per se, as long as we get something substantial in return. We have a toll-free road system, so I guess that's where the road-tax money goes. If it's the environment the Govt should care about, then I'd take the train. But the railway system here is a shambles, connections are abominable and the available capacity can never accomodate the number of people that commute by car should they all choose to go by train. (Come to think of it, the road system can barely do that.) So, in many places you have to take the car. As it turns out, they tax us silly for something that most of us don't really even have a choice about. That makes the whole issue even more galling. Ha! We have our first toll motorway! It's in the Midlands in the Birmingham area and I bet it's the thin edge of the wedge. There are already issues surrounding other tolls connected with bridges. The big Thames bridge at Dartford east of London was built with private money and tolls on the basis that the tolls would end when the loan was repaid. Well, that deadline came and went. The government called it some sort of environmental levy and it continues indefinitely... Don't kid yourself. I am sure the situation in NL is no different to other regions: revenue (car & fuel taxes etc) from road vehicles is far above what is spent on roads. But we need the cars and could not function without lorries. In the UK a mere 10% reduction of freight on roads shifted to rail would DOUBLE rail freight, a drop in the ocean. In short, even though I like travelling by train and would prefer it for certain long journeys I believe those who push rail at the expense of road, believing rail to be the answer to all environmental issues, are grass-smoking pipedreamers... So there... not quite totally off-topic as I am talking about roads... DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- [.....] > We have a toll-free road system, so I guess that's where the road-tax money > goes. If it's the environment the Govt should care about, then I'd take the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > silly for something that most of us don't really even have a choice about. > That makes the whole issue even more galling. > There are already issues surrounding other tolls connected with bridges. > The big Thames bridge at Dartford east of London was built with private > money and tolls on the basis that the tolls would end when the loan was > repaid. Well, that deadline came and went. The government called it > some sort of environmental levy and it continues indefinitely... Nothing new about toll bridges on motorways or main roads. Both the Forth and Tay bridges in East Scotland have been toll since built - about 40 years ago. But since that's only Scotland, the English didn't worry. ;-) Signature*I don't have a solution, but I admire your problem. * Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn > Nothing new about toll bridges on motorways or main roads. Both the Forth > and Tay bridges in East Scotland have been toll since built - about 40 > years ago. But since that's only Scotland, the English didn't worry. ;-) And the Severn bridge(s), the original having been there 40 years or so. Now that is of worry to the English as you have to pay to get into Wales, but it's free coming out... SignatureScott Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket? > Ha! We have our first toll motorway! It's in the Midlands in the > Birmingham area and I bet it's the thin edge of the wedge. There are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > that deadline came and went. The government called it some sort of > environmental levy and it continues indefinitely... Back in 1991, Wim Kok introduced the "Kwartje van Kok": a surcharge on fuel prices of about 20 guilder cents (9 EUR cents). This money went not to road/transportation related issues, it went straight into the Government coffers to feed an ever growing budget deficit. Although the budget deficit "belonged" to all of us, only the drivers were singled out and keelhauled: this is typical of the kind of half-assed flapdoodle those space monkeys back in the Hague come up with. 13 years on, the 9 cents is still there. That's 7.5% of each liter of unleaded petrol sold in the Netherlands. Only in the last couple of years have they started funneling those funds into actual road/transportation related projects. And don't forget, we already pay road taxes! Beat that, United Kingdom! :-) Peter Bozz <fake-user@fake.email.address> haute in die Tasten: > Although the budget deficit > "belonged" to all of us, only the drivers were singled out and > keelhauled: this is typical of the kind of half-assed flapdoodle those > space monkeys back in the Hague come up with. In Germany they usually take the money from two groups: car owners (road and fuel tax) and smokers (tobacco tax). Both money sources have their limits. After the last fuel tax rise we found ourselves in the situation that fuel is significantly cheaper in most of our neighbour countries. If you take Bavaria (south Germany), where I live, it is much cheaper to fill up your car in Austria, Czech Republic, Swizerland or Liechtenstein. You can save up to 20 dollars per fill. This leads to the strange situation that many bavarian petrol stations within a 40 mile zone to the border are rather deserted, while the stations just across the border are crowded with german cars. The situation gets even worse when you take tobacco tax into consideration. One pack of cigarettes (19 or 20 cigarettes) costs 4 Euro (approx 5 USD). A tax rise in the near future has already been announced. If you travel between countries you are allowed to take up to 200 cigarettes duty free with you. So the guys who buy their fuel abroad, also buy their cigarettes abroad, taking away an important source of revenue from the german petrol station owners in the border region. Besides this cigarettes have started to attract criminals, who smuggle them to Germany in a vast amount. Illegal cigarette dealing in Germany promotes criminal structures comparable to the mafia. Besides this I think that the Government behaves dishonest, when they pretend to struggle against smoking, while paying financial aids to tobacco farmers in the EU and calculating tobacco tax income into their budget. Why not legalize cocain? It would create many jobs, meet an increasing demand and create a new source of wonderful taxes. (Caution: joke in progress...) Frank Signatureplease replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact Citroen - Made in Trance Transport of tax-paid goods out of the Czech Republic and other EU countries into other EU countries is unlimited for personal use, don't forget. What is illegal is the large-scale movement of goods for commercial purposes. I remember some years ago seeing lorry drivers arriving from France at my Kent (south-east England) workplace regularly selling cigarettes and alcohol to workers at our place. Alcoholic drinks enjoy extra taxation, just like petrol. 75% of whisky is tax. Things are so 'bad' that the government loses about GBP 250m anually because of displaced sales...in Kent pubs are losing out because people are crossing to France to buy their liqour. In fact, big British retailers such as Tesco and Oddbins (wineshop chain) have opened British-style stores in the Calais area to cater to British shoppers. http://www.oddbins.com/storefinder/calais.asp Indeed, the Eurotunnel/Shuttle rail terminal at the French end is also a great source of cheap (cf UK) beer... In case anybody is wondering what is different about a British wine shop, it's the choice. As we have a fairly insignificant domestic wine industry we drink our wines from everywhere. Shepherds Neame, the big Kent brewer now sells vast volumes of beer to Brits in Calais.... Funny how duties on drinks haven't risen much in recent years...the free market lives... DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- [........] > In Germany they usually take the money from two groups: car owners (road > and fuel tax) and smokers (tobacco tax). Both money sources have their [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Frank When did the marginal rate go up from 40%, or have you added something else in? DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- [....] > But it is worse than that. You earn an extra pound and only receive 59p > (41% tax rate) then when you spend that 59p another 45p goes in more > tax, so you have to earn ?1 to get 14p of petrol after paying 86p tax! .................. >When did the marginal rate go up from 40%, or have you added something else >in? Marginal rate for people earning just above average wages is 40% Income Tax, then the Labour Government added an extra 1% onto Nation Insurance (which is not ring-fenced to health care) to up the marginal rate to 41%. You would have thought here that the increase in average wages would be enough for our government, but we have to fund the EU as well and the tax and spend polices of the government, so we pay a higher rate of tax on more earnings - a sort of double whammy! Or a triple whammy because the government optionally increases the tax bands in line with inflation and not average earnings (which increase at a higher rate) so each year more people pay more tax at the higher rate. SignatureJohnPerry@redoak.co.ukNOSPAM (delete NOSPAM) www.redoak.co.uk www.eze-buy.co.uk > The only reason fuel prices are so high in Europe is because of taxes. > The Labour government in particular adopts a tax and spend policy and so > 75% of the price of Petrol is Tax. But have kept the UK economy buoyant through a world recession. Signature*Nostalgia isn't what is used to be. Dave Plowman dave.sound@argonet.co.uk London SW 12 RIP Acorn |
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