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Car Forum / BMW Cars / March 2005New 3/4 Series
Has anybody had it confirmed that the current 3 series is definitely going to be split into the 3 and 4 series? I asked my dealer today, who knew nothing about the proposed 4. This is troubling, as I want to advance order a new M4!!! Thanks Harry > Has anybody had it confirmed that the current 3 series is definitely going > to be split into the 3 and 4 series? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Harry I think the general concensus is that there will be no "4" series although only BMW really know. Someone on a UK M3 board has placed a deposit to book a slot for the new M3 and has been told it will be a 2 door coupe. No mention of a 4 door version. I'm in a similar situation wit the M5, I want an M5 tourer but no-one will confirm if there will be one or not but will take deposits for a saloon. If you want 4 doors I think you'll be heading towards an M5 and an M3 for 2 doors. >> Has anybody had it confirmed that the current 3 series is definitely >> going [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > a slot for the new M3 and has been told it will be a 2 door coupe. No > mention of a 4 door version. I'm in a similar situation wit the M5, I want Isn't this the same as the E46? The last 4 door M3 was the E36 version. Dan > Has anybody had it confirmed that the current 3 series is definitely going > to be split into the 3 and 4 series? > > I asked my dealer today, who knew nothing about the proposed 4. > > This is troubling, as I want to advance order a new M4!!! I read that the cost of creating a new model designation for the 2-door variant was considered to expensive versus any benefit derived from the break out of a new model line ... no 4-series. OTOH, this could be a red herring floated by BMW AG. R / John I also read in Autoweek that the 3-series is simply too important to BMW (60% of sales) with too strong of an identity to risk changing the 2-doors to be 4 rather than 3-series. The 3 series carries a solid reputation worldwide. > Has anybody had it confirmed that the current 3 series is definitely going > to be split into the 3 and 4 series? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption > =---- > Has anybody had it confirmed that the current 3 series is definitely going > to be split into the 3 and 4 series? > > I asked my dealer today, who knew nothing about the proposed 4. > > This is troubling, as I want to advance order a new M4!!! BMW has confirmed this to a number of magazines, the last being AutoWeek, which did a cover story on the E90 in last week's edition. There will be no 4 series....derived from the 3 series. >> Has anybody had it confirmed that the current 3 series is definitely >> going [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > no > 4 series....derived from the 3 series. So does this mean that in 3-4 years when the E85 Z4 is replaced, the new small roadster will, again, be called a Z3? Just wondering :-) Tom > "Ramone Cila" <dontw@nt.spam> wrote in message > > BMW has confirmed this to a number of magazines, the last being AutoWeek, > > which did a cover story on the E90 in last week's edition. There will be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > small roadster will, again, be called a Z3? > Just wondering :-) Are you claiming your Z4 is a "4 series" or are you claiming it shares a platform with the "3 series", or are you claiming both? >> "Ramone Cila" <dontw@nt.spam> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Are you claiming your Z4 is a "4 series" or are you claiming it shares a > platform with the "3 series", or are you claiming both? Not claiming anything - just trying to understand the logic (if any) of the Z1, Z4 & Z8 names. Tom >BMW has confirmed this to a number of magazines, the last being AutoWeek, >which did a cover story on the E90 in last week's edition. There will be no >4 series....derived from the 3 series. Along with more rumors of a turbocharged car. I'll believe that when I see it... > >BMW has confirmed this to a number of magazines, the last being AutoWeek, > >which did a cover story on the E90 in last week's edition. There will be no > >4 series....derived from the 3 series. > > Along with more rumors of a turbocharged car. I'll believe that when > I see it... We've been hearing these for a long time, haven't we. I find it funny though...BMW has maintained high ground because Audi and Merc ***have*** to blow their current engine architecture to develop similar power and response levels, and now, just when each are developing new engines that eschew forced air, the magazines are reporting BMW is developing new gas engines that are turbo'ed or supercharged. Makes no sense. I agree with you, I'll be very surprised the day I see a mainline BMW model in the USA with a turbo'ed engine. > > >BMW has confirmed this to a number of magazines, the last being AutoWeek, > > >which did a cover story on the E90 in last week's edition. There will be [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I agree with you, I'll be very surprised the day I see a mainline BMW model > in the USA with a turbo'ed engine. See 745i mid 80's, 2002tii early 70's. Plus various turbocharged diesels of course but that's not what you mean I know. Turbocharged BMW 12 cylinder motors can be found in several places in production today, in the MacLearen F1 for example. This is current, roadgoing, streetlegal production. So, I submit that it's not as outlandish as you might think. I like and respect BMW's policy of normally aspirated performance motors. But it's not a religion with them. Forced induction motors may well appear on our shores in the near future. -Russ. > "Ramone Cila" <dontw@nt.spam> wrote in message > > I agree with you, I'll be very surprised the day I see a mainline BMW > model > > in the USA with a turbo'ed engine. > > See 745i mid 80's, 2002tii early 70's. Plus various turbocharged diesels of > course but that's not what you mean I know. Everyone here is aware of BMW's past turbo'ed engines. We are also aware of the 20 years since they have eschewed them as well. > Turbocharged BMW 12 cylinder motors can be found in several places in > production today, in the MacLearen F1 for example. This is current, > roadgoing, streetlegal production. As we are aware of the F1, but I said "mainline BMW model". You will notice that while BMW produces forced air engines they do not put their Roundel on any of the vehicles that bear the Roundel. > So, I submit that it's not as outlandish as you might think. I think it is entirely outlandish. They could have achieved the same power levels, probably for much less money, in the new M5 had they thought turbos or superchargers offered the same responsiveness. That has always been their mantra regarding blown engines....that they can't meet the responsiveness of normally aspirated engines. Given their comments over the past 5 or 6 years, while Audi and Merc went the way of turbos and SC's, I think it highly unlikely we see a blown petrol engine in a mainline BMW model. > Given their comments over the past 5 or 6 years, while Audi and Merc went > the way of turbos and SC's, I think it highly unlikely we see a blown > petrol engine in a mainline BMW model. Hello Ramone! Normally I would agree with you. But current Car Magazines here in Germany still predict a turbo 330ti whith approximately 330hp. This variant is probably supposed to fill the gap between the new 330i starting next year with 258hp and the next M3 with V8 and ~400hp. The turbo version is only a rumor of course, but IMHO it will happen. Marketingwise this would make perfect sense. And it would be quite difficult to fill this gap with a normally aspirated engine without going from inline6 to V8. Just my 0.02 cent. Karl from Germany > > Given their comments over the past 5 or 6 years, while Audi and Merc went > > the way of turbos and SC's, I think it highly unlikely we see a blown [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Normally I would agree with you. But current Car Magazines here in Germany > still predict a turbo 330ti whith approximately 330hp. They have been predicting turbo BMW's for the last ten years both here and in Europe. In fact if you read early reports on the E60 almost all magazines were predicting a 380 HP twin turbo. Of course as we know that didn't happen....nor is there any more talk about it happening. I don't see turbo's happening in the 3, 5, 6,or 7 series cars. And I don't see why. I do see the possibility of turbos or superchargers in the 1 series for the Asian market. But I find little value in magazine predictions when it comes to certain car companies and BMW is one of them. "Ramone Cila" <dontw@nt.spam> haute in die Tasten: > I don't see turbo's > happening in the 3, 5, 6,or 7 series cars. Of course they make turbo engines in all of these series (except the 6 series up to now): They make turbodiesel engines, and now they even have a three litre twin turbo diesel with some 270 HP IIRC. When they first made the turbocharged 745i back in the early 80's it was some sort of marketing hype, because at that time they provided the Brabham Formula 1 racing team with a turbocharged racing engine, which won the world championship. Today they still make Formula one engines, so it does not make me wonder, why the new M5 has no turbo, but V10 cylinders and a seven gears SMG gearbox. Frank  Signatureplease replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact Citroen - Made in Trance > "Ramone Cila" <dontw@nt.spam> haute in die Tasten: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Of course they make turbo engines in all of these series (except the 6 > series up to now): Not turbo gas/petrol engines....which is what we are talking about. We all know they make turbo diesels. > But I find little value in magazine predictions when it comes to certain > car companies and BMW is one of them. The magazine I'm reffering to seems to have quite good contacts. They predicted many details right of the current 5 and 6 series including technical details 2 years before they appeared. But that doesn't mean, this rumor must be true. I personally am quite impressed by the responsiveness of my 325Ci from just above 1000 up to 6500 rpm without any peaks or holes. Therefore I couldn't care less for a turbo with a less perfect power output over the rpm-range... In the end only time will tell ;-) Karl > > But I find little value in magazine predictions when it comes to certain > > car companies and BMW is one of them. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Karl So, taking your great engine, and adding a big bunch of high-end power, wouldn't interest you? -Russ. "Somebody" <somebody@nospam.russdoucet.com> haute in die Tasten: > So, taking your great engine, and adding a big bunch of high-end power, > wouldn't interest you? A Turbo engine behaves different. In order to prevent the turbo killing the engine, the compression usually is lower, which affects the responsiveness in the low end. As soon as the turbo has gained speed and generated pressure, suddenly the power is there. Of course there are better and worse turbo engines, but it is hard to meet the original BMW characteristics. Frank Signatureplease replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact Citroen - Made in Trance > > > But I find little value in magazine predictions when it comes to certain > > > car companies and BMW is one of them. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > this > > rumor must be true. Karl: "details" is one thing, they are generally not as guarded about these things. Engine specs, outputs and architecture is a whole 'nuther animal....particularly for BMW who pride themselves on engine building. I just don't see BMW making all the commotion about normal aspiration and response levels and then putting turbos and blowers on their petrol cars. My mind tells me if turbo'ed engines were in the pipeline BMW would have been more circumspect in their comments about normally aspirated engines compared to compressed air units. > > I personally am quite impressed by the responsiveness of my 325Ci from > just [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > So, taking your great engine, and adding a big bunch of high-end power, > wouldn't interest you? Russ: It's not that simple. You cannot have the same mapping for low end torque, flat curve and seamless transition to the high end, and then just slap on a turbo to increase that upper end. Were that the case there is likely no one who would choose normally aspirated over blown engines. His comments about "peaks" and "holes" is precisely why many don't like blown/turbo'ed gasoline engines. These are the very sins that limit the responsiveness of turbo'ed engines. And this is precisely why in spite of having greater torque levels and similar or better HP than the M5 (E39 or E60) both Merc and Audi are right now developing normally aspirated engines for the AMG and RS models. Pretty soon no one from Germany will be offering a blown/turbo'ed engine in the high spec sedan segment. > Has anybody had it confirmed that the current 3 series is definitely going > to be split into the 3 and 4 series? This month's Roundel has a gushing article about the new E90, as does Car & Driver. Very fast, quite nice looking. Floyd >> Has anybody had it confirmed that the current 3 series is definitely >> going to be split into the 3 and 4 series? No confirmations as such but things like this: http://www.channel4.com/4car/gallery/spy-shots-2004/B/bmw/4-series.html do make it seem very likely. Also the new 2 series and M2 sound really nice too : http://phark.typepad.com/phark/2004/04/2005_bmw_2_seri.html --- Sam |
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