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Car Forum / BMW Cars / January 2005Snow Chains not allowed? WTF?
I'm heading up to ski on Monday, and was going to go pick up some snow chains for the 330Cic. I look in my manual, and it first discusses how I should only by overpriced "official BMW" chains from the dealer, blah blah blah fine whatever. Then is says: "You cannot mount snow chains on the following tires: ... 255/35 R 18 225/40 R 18 " Which are my tires! Why can't I use low-profile cables like I have on every other car I've ever owned? Is this an overprotective liability disclaimer, or a true "you will ruin your car and be stranded" prohibition? Help! I leave in two days for Mammoth Mountain!  SignatureJason G "This isn't a matter of being tolerant; it's a matter of being sane." --REP, a.s.c. > I'm heading up to ski on Monday, and was going to go pick up some snow chains > for the 330Cic. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Help! I leave in two days for Mammoth Mountain! Jason, My thoughts would be the following: Can you find chains that will fit those size tires? With all the plastic in and around your wheel wells, if part of a "chain" breaks off and starts flapping around in your wheel well, you'll chew up the plastic real quick. Probably your biggest worry. Can the low-profile cables be mounted with your wheels? Don't ruin them. My advice (and I assume no liability for this advice)....buy some chains that fit, buy some cables that fit, slap them on once you have hit the snow line and hope for the best. Assume the liability for whatever happens to your car, wheels, and tires. Go skiing. I'd love to go to Mammouth!!! Whatever you buy, try them on before you leave. And maybe next time, look at an xi models.....what do they call it...."the world's fastest snowplow" Have fun. Tom Allen St. Louis 2002 330xi .. >Can you find chains that will fit those size tires? >With all the plastic in and around your wheel wells, if part >of a "chain" breaks off and starts flapping around in your >wheel well, you'll chew up the plastic real quick. Probably >your biggest worry. or having the chains slip bad and tear off brake hoses and other nice-to-have features. >Can the low-profile cables be mounted with your wheels? >Don't ruin them. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >And maybe next time, look at an xi models.....what do they >call it...."the world's fastest snowplow" you might also consider getting a set of *real* winter tires, although getting a set of those for just a skiing trip might be a bit of an overkill :) of course, AWD completely removes the need for chains :) -- harri 525ixT -95 >Have fun. > >Tom Allen >St. Louis >2002 330xi > .. >>Can you find chains that will fit those size tires? [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > of course, AWD completely removes the need for chains :) All together now. *Oh no it doesn't!* Huw >you might also consider getting a set of *real* winter tires, although >getting a set of those for just a skiing trip might be a bit of an >overkill :) and he wouldn't get to Mammooth with them as he would be sent back at the chain inspection point. >of course, AWD completely removes the need for chains :) No, it doesn't. Marcio@nospam.com wrote: .. >>of course, AWD completely removes the need for chains :) > >No, it doesn't. hmm. you're right. AWD and winter tyres removes the need for chains. a colleague of mine drove up a steep slalom hill (in the Alps) with his Audi. no problem climbing up, but there was a major problem coming down because braking was not sufficient to slow the car down. fortunately he had a manual gearbox and ABS could be switched off so he braked with reverse gear. we have snow from November to March, and at least my 525ix will keep going in snow until it gets stuck from its belly. and at that point chains won't do any good since they'd only dig the wheels deeper :) currently wearing a set of 215/55R16 Nokian Hakka Q's. snow chains are very rarely used, because the law prohibits use of summer tyres in the winter season. also few people use M+S tyres. a lot of people have studded winter tyres though. -- harri 525ixT -95 I hope he was going down the slope backwards! DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- [...] > down because braking was not sufficient to slow the car > down. fortunately he had a manual gearbox and ABS could be switched > off so he braked with reverse gear. [...] > you might also consider getting a set of *real* winter tires, although > getting a set of those for just a skiing trip might be a bit of an > overkill :) > > of course, AWD completely removes the need for chains :) The California Highway Patrol frequently allows only cars with chains. Sometimes they'll allow 4WD with snow tires, but other times it's chains only. This is mostly to slow people down. Californians drive like complete morons anyway, but they don't adjust their driving style *at all* for poor conditions. The carnage on the freeways during wet weather is incredible enough, let alone in snow and ice (which there's more of in CA than most people might think). Matt O. .. >The California Highway Patrol frequently allows only cars with chains. >Sometimes they'll allow 4WD with snow tires, but other times it's chains only. >This is mostly to slow people down. Californians drive like complete morons >anyway, but they don't adjust their driving style *at all* for poor conditions. the bad thing with AWD+snow tires is that you can drive 90mph on a snowy road with no problem whatsoever, until you need to stop :) acceleration is like in the summer, whereas braking distances are at least x 4. >The carnage on the freeways during wet weather is incredible enough, let alone >in snow and ice (which there's more of in CA than most people might think). > >Matt O. > the bad thing with AWD+snow tires is that you can drive 90mph on a > snowy road with no problem whatsoever, until you need to stop :) > acceleration is like in the summer, whereas braking distances are at > least x 4. I've spent several nights in the parking lot of a local ski area because some moron in a 4WD took out a dozen cars on his way down the hill, blocking the road for hours. Every time I went skiing in CA I saw several accidents obviously caused by aggressive driving. Getting people to use common sense is futile, so they make everyone put chains on and go 25 MPH. Matt O. > the bad thing with AWD+snow tires is that you can drive 90mph on a > snowy road with no problem whatsoever, until you need to stop :) > acceleration is like in the summer, whereas braking distances are at > least x 4. Actually, the "bad" thing is that some moron will actually drive 90mph on a snowy road in the first place. Living in Placerville, Ca. on Hwy 50 (the road going up to Lake Tahoe in the Sierra Nevada Mntns), it seems not a week goes by in winter where we do not read about some ignorant flatlander (city person) yeahoo with a 4wd/awd/suv/whatever that crashes on Hwy 50, hurts/kills themselves, or worse yet, some other innocent. These IDIOTS think their 4wd/awd/suv can do anything because of what they see in the commercials. The ONLY thing all these electronic goodies do is help you get going! They do nothing to STOP you; even DSC/ABS is USELESS on ice! If you are a Flatlander from San Francisco or Sacramento, Ca. slow the heck down!!!! ----------------------------------------------- > .. >>The California Highway Patrol frequently allows only cars with chains. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> >>Matt O. > Living in Placerville, Ca. on Hwy 50 (the road going up to Lake Tahoe > in the Sierra Nevada Mntns), it seems not a week goes by in winter [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > If you are a Flatlander from San Francisco or Sacramento, Ca. slow > the heck down!!!! There are plenty of morons living in the mountains who tailgate aggressively, and try to show off what "expert" drivers they think they are by taking corners too fast, etc. So don't blame it on the flatlanders. Morons live everywhere, and they all have the same dangerous driving habits. Matt O. > .. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> >>Matt O. So why is it that the car can accelerate *quicker* than it can brake? SignatureRob Munach, PE Excel Engineering PO Box 1264 Carrboro, NC 27510 <<snip>> >> the bad thing with AWD+snow tires is that you can drive 90mph on a >> snowy road with no problem whatsoever, until you need to stop :) >> acceleration is like in the summer, whereas braking distances are at >> least x 4. Personally, I doubt that snow tyres alone can give you the same grip and acceleration as in the summer, a bit of journalistic exaggeration there methinks. They will undoubtedly give more grip than a summer type tread pattern would in the snow though. > So why is it that the car can accelerate *quicker* than it can brake? All things being equal Rob, it can't. The grip required to accelerate a body is the same to decelerate it. Mr Newton once said "a body in motion shall remain so unless acted upon by an external force", the same applies to a body at rest. In theory, air resistance should help it to slow at a greater rate than it accelerated, but it's such a small effect at sensible snowy weather roadspeeds that it's not really worth considering. What is an issue however, is the tread of the snow tyres. Some are directional, giving more bite when accelerating than braking. Personally, if it weren't for the silly laws in britain I'd fit them backwards so that the braking grip was better. Badger. > What is an issue however, is the tread of the snow tyres. Some are > directional, giving more bite when accelerating than braking. Personally, > if it weren't for the silly laws in britain I'd fit them backwards so that > the braking grip was better. > Badger. Back in the 1960's, Pirelli made a tire ("Inverno" IIRC) with an extreme V tread. Mounted in one direction, it was a summer tire & reversed, they claimed it was a snow tire. I never was able to test the winter capability as they lasted less than 9,000 miles on my Corvair! Tom .. >Personally, I doubt that snow tyres alone can give you the same grip and >acceleration as in the summer, a bit of journalistic exaggeration there >methinks. They will undoubtedly give more grip than a summer type tread >pattern would in the snow though. the difference between a summer tyre and a proper snow tyre (not M+S) on snow is very significant in practice. much more than ever could be deducted by looking at the tyre patterns - the rubber compound is quite different too. of course an emergency braking will never be the same on snow, but for normal driving the difference can be quite small. and that is the potentially dangerous bit. >> So why is it that the car can accelerate *quicker* than it can brake? >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >braking grip was better. >Badger. Could it be that BMW say do not use snow chains because of possible damage to the car. With limited clearance between the wheel and the underside of the wheel arch, the extra dimension could be critical at maximum spring compression. Particularly when the front wheels are on full lock. Just a thought. Oldun >Could it be that BMW say do not use snow chains because of possible damage >to the car. With limited clearance between the wheel and the underside of >the wheel arch, the extra dimension could be critical at maximum spring >compression. Particularly when the front wheels are on full lock. that'd make sense. I'm pretty certain that there's not much extra room between the wheel and the surroundings even without silly 18'' wheels. >Just a thought. > >Oldun xlengr@mindspring.com wrote: .. >So why is it that the car can accelerate *quicker* than it can brake? because even non-AWD cars have four wheel brakes, so there is no braking performance difference between RWD and AWD. there is a very significant acceleration difference in favor of AWD though. > > you might also consider getting a set of *real* winter tires, although > > getting a set of those for just a skiing trip might be a bit of an [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Matt O. We avoided the pass near Mt. Shasta this weekend for the very reason that ALL cars had to have chains (and were provided a CHP escort as well, obviously to slow down the loonies.) This thread is interesting in retrospect, since we were driving a 1986 535i...we didn't want to deal with chains, but that we would have potentially ruined the car if we had wanted to put them on? Something to be aware of! V. -- Veronique Chez Sheep > This thread is interesting in retrospect, since we were driving a 1986 > 535i...we didn't want to deal with chains, but that we would have > potentially ruined the car if we had wanted to put them on? Something > to be aware of! I don't think so -- I'm pretty sure you can put chains on any 80s BMW, as long as you haven't gotten too radical with the wheel/tire package. The problem with the newer cars is extremely low profile tires, easily damaged wheels, and too little clearance in the wheel wells, plus plastic parts that could be damaged by flinging chains. Anyone who's used chains much is familiar with the thump-thump as they whack the inside of the wheel well. Slowing down keeps them from flinging out too far. Matt O. > > This thread is interesting in retrospect, since we were driving a 1986 > > 535i...we didn't want to deal with chains, but that we would have [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > as they whack the inside of the wheel well. Slowing down keeps them from > flinging out too far. I do know the owner of this particular BMW got the wheels changes to permit him to mount "normal" (as in, more easily obtained? I don't know enough!) tires. So when did the use of easily-damaged plastic bits in and around the wheelwells come in? V. -- Veronique Chez Sheep > "You cannot mount snow chains on the following tires: > ... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > other car I've ever owned? Is this an overprotective liability disclaimer, or a > true "you will ruin your car and be stranded" prohibition? How low were your "low-profile" tyres on previous cars? Snow chains are prohibited* by BMW in every country, so I doubt it's anything to do with liability. it's probably because they don't fit properly, and will ruin your alloy and possibly the tyre, too. So I suspect it's more of a safety thing. * Well, not prohibited, of course - you're free to do exactly as you like, which includes going against better advice and wrecking your rear alloys :) "Andrew Thomas" <andrewj_nospamthomas@yahoo.com.au> wrote > How low were your "low-profile" tyres on previous cars? Snow chains > are prohibited* by BMW in every country, so I doubt it's anything to do > with liability. it's probably because they don't fit properly, and > will ruin your alloy and possibly the tyre, too. So I suspect it's > more of a safety thing. You're wrong. My 2001 US manual specifically says a) cable chains are recommended over chains, and b) they are allowed on tires with less than 225mm tread width. The problem is clearance against the suspension, not in trashing the alloys. Floyd |
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