 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Car Forum / BMW Cars / December 2004'89 525i timing belt woes
I had a situation this morning. I got gas and as I was leaving, the car stalled as I was pulling out of the station. I tried to crank it over, and it just spins. It wont turn over. I suspected maybe the started disengaged or maybe the coil wire got knocked out of place, but couldnt see anything out of the ordinary. I had the car towed to BMW shop that I have been to before, and the guy told me that my timing belt is hosed. Not only that, but he guaranteed that all my valves were bent. He said he would not take my $200 to fix the timing belt, because it would be a waste of money. He estimates fixing the car will be $1300-$1500. Not wanting to put that kind of money into the car, Im somewhat at a loss, and feel the life of this car will soon be over and stripped for parts. My questions are as follows: 1) If it is the timing belt that went, what are the chances of the valves being in tact? 2) How hard is it to replace the belt, assuming I want to attempt to replace the belt myself. 3) If the valves are not bent, and I do succeed in replacing the belt, will I have to adjust the valves in order to prevent them from being damaged, or is it simply safe enough to line up the crank and camshaft pulleys/sprockets or whatever is used on this car. 4) How can I verify the valves are in tact short of taking the head off. A mechanic told me I can inspect the rockers to see if they are moving oddly, and or pull the plugs and force air into the chamber cylinder by cylinder and confirm there is good pressure (when the valve is closed / open etc..) 5) How is the used 525 parts market? :) I know the doors can cost 3-400 easy used. I would pretty much take $1500 for the whole car at this point. Maybe less.. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated -Rob >I had a situation this morning. I got gas and as I was leaving, the car > stalled as I was pulling out of the station. I tried to crank it over, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > 1) If it is the timing belt that went, what are the chances of the valves > being in tact? Very small. Probably only a 5% chance. > 2) How hard is it to replace the belt, assuming I want to attempt to > replace the belt myself. Not hard, but not easy. > 3) If the valves are not bent, and I do succeed in replacing the belt, > will I > have to adjust the valves in order to prevent them from being damaged, or > is it simply safe enough to line up the crank and camshaft > pulleys/sprockets or > whatever is used on this car. You will have to rebuild (or replace) the head. It is also possible that a piston (or pistons) have been damaged and need replacing - badness. > 4) How can I verify the valves are in tact short of taking the head off. > A [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and confirm > there is good pressure (when the valve is closed / open etc..) A leakdown test should show if a cylinder is toast due to bent valves. > 5) How is the used 525 parts market? :) I know the doors can cost 3-400 > easy used. > I would pretty much take $1500 for the whole car at this point. Maybe > less.. Although an '89 525i is not particularly valuable, it might be worth the money to repair it if the mileage is less than 150K-200K miles and the rest of the car is in good shape. Floyd >> 1) If it is the timing belt that went, what are the chances of the valves >> being in tact? > Very small. Probably only a 5% chance. Seems odd that the mechanic would guarantee my valves are bent and not want my money to replace the belt. >> 2) How hard is it to replace the belt, assuming I want to attempt to >> replace the belt myself. > Not hard, but not easy. Any special tools needed? Im assuming the bulk of the job is just removing everything to access the belt. >> 3) If the valves are not bent, and I do succeed in replacing the belt, >> will I >> have to adjust the valves in order to prevent them from being damaged, or >> is it simply safe enough to line up the crank and camshaft >> pulleys/sprockets or >> whatever is used on this car. > You will have to rebuild (or replace) the head. It is also possible that > a piston (or pistons) have been damaged and need replacing - badness. Was this reply for if the valves *are* bent? I wouldnt think I need to rebuild the head if there was no valve damage. Thanks for the replies.. -Rob >> 4) How can I verify the valves are in tact short of taking the head off. >> A [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> and confirm >> there is good pressure (when the valve is closed / open etc..) > A leakdown test should show if a cylinder is toast due to bent valves. >> 5) How is the used 525 parts market? :) I know the doors can cost 3-400 >> easy used. >> I would pretty much take $1500 for the whole car at this point. Maybe >> less.. > Although an '89 525i is not particularly valuable, it might be worth the > money > to repair it if the mileage is less than 150K-200K miles and the rest of the > car is in good shape. > Floyd >>> 1) If it is the timing belt that went, what are the chances of the >>> valves [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Seems odd that the mechanic would guarantee my valves are bent and > not want my money to replace the belt. To rebuild/replace the head you have to replace the belt. There is no sense in gambling on a 5% chance you won't have to replace the head. > Was this reply for if the valves *are* bent? I wouldnt think I need > to rebuild the head if there was no valve damage. Yes. It's most likely (95%) that they are if the belt snapped. This is true of all "interference" engines (BMW, Toyota, etc.) Floyd > >> 1) If it is the timing belt that went, what are the chances of the > >> valves being in tact? > > Very small. Probably only a 5% chance. > Seems odd that the mechanic would guarantee my valves are bent and > not want my money to replace the belt. It's an 'interference' engine. This means if the engine is turned with the camshaft stationary one or more valves will have been 'hit' by the pistons. Now the valve can't just be pushed back up as the camshaft stops this, so its only way out is to bend. However, it's not beyond the capabilities of a decent DIYer to remove the head and repair it, or simply replace the head with a secondhand one - this engine is pretty common. And even Haynes gives detailed instructions. With the head off and the cam removed, simply fill the ports with kerosine. The damaged valves will leak, the others not.  Signature*Time is what keeps everything from happening at once. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > >> 1) If it is the timing belt that went, what are the chances of the valves > >> being in tact? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Seems odd that the mechanic would guarantee my valves are bent and > not want my money to replace the belt. In all the years I've followed E30's, and all the lists I'm on, I've not yet heard from anybody that broke a belt that didnt' have bent valves on an M20. Your mechanic sounds as if he knows what he's talking about. Good used heads are not that hard to get ahold of to make the swap inexpensive -- rebuilds generally work out more expensive due to the labor involved. Where do you live in the world? There may be parts nearby... > Any special tools needed? Im assuming the bulk of the job > is just removing everything to access the belt. Waste of time if you don't attend the head. You can't remove and re-install a timing belt, once it's on it stays on until you change it, so you'll be buying a second belt. Firing the engine back up with a new belt and broken valves may just damage some pistons even if they aren't damaged presently. > >> 3) If the valves are not bent, and I do succeed in replacing the belt, > >> will I > >> have to adjust the valves in order to prevent them from being damaged, or > >> is it simply safe enough to line up the crank and camshaft > >> pulleys/sprockets or > >> whatever is used on this car. If, iF, IF, If, by some miracle the valves are not bent, your cam lobes are probably scarred, or the valve stem tips are mushroomed. The tolerances will all be off. You should set them and do a compression test afterwards. > > You will have to rebuild (or replace) the head. It is also possible that > > a piston (or pistons) have been damaged and need replacing - badness. > > Was this reply for if the valves *are* bent? I wouldnt think I need > to rebuild the head if there was no valve damage. When you have the head off you can inspect the pistons. If you have damaged valves and you fire that engine, you're going to do more damage. I think 5% chance of not bent is a very, very generous allowance. -Russ. When was the last time that the timing belt was replaced on the car? Also, I recall reading in the news group that BMW used timing chains, not belts. Obviously some Bimmers have belts, as your tale of woe proves, but which do not? - GRL > I had a situation this morning. I got gas and as I was leaving, the car > stalled as I was pulling out of the station. I tried to crank it over, [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > -Rob > Also, I recall reading in the news group that BMW used timing chains, not > belts. Obviously some Bimmers have belts, as your tale of woe proves, but > which do not? The change came in with the twin cam 24 valve engines - round about '91. Signature*Always drink upstream from the herd * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > When was the last time that the timing belt was replaced on the car? Have no idea. I inherited the car from my wife, and AFAIK, it was never replaced. (I guess our bad for not doing preventative maint). -Rob > Also, I recall reading in the news group that BMW used timing chains, not > belts. Obviously some Bimmers have belts, as your tale of woe proves, but > which do not? > - GRL >> I had a situation this morning. I got gas and as I was leaving, the car >> stalled as I was pulling out of the station. I tried to crank it over, [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >> >> -Rob >I guess our bad for not doing preventative maint Just curious, do the phrases "oil change", "oil filter", and "air filter" sound at all familiar to you? Now i know for a fact, that any bmw engine cranked on the starter with broken/bent valves floating around (due to broken belts) will sound way different to normal. You WILL feel vibrations through the car, especially if a snapped valve or three is trying to punch through the combustion chambers into the water jacket. You WILL also hear the speed of the starter varying, maybe briefly stalling at times. I would obtain a second opinion ... its WAY to easy for a typical garage (who are out to make money to survive) to say "oh broken this, snapped that, ?????s please sir" when all that might be wrong is a failed fuel pump relay, maybe the pump itself .... maybe you have an aftermarket immobiliser installed by a "registered" firm who employ kids straight from school ... and show them how to build unreliability in. (The use of scotchblock connectors is an example). So .. get a second opinion. SignatureRegards.... Steve (Just stripped a m20 head in 25 minutes flat ... yea i'm quick!!). > Now i know for a fact, that any bmw engine cranked on the starter > with broken/bent valves floating around (due to broken belts) will > sound way different to normal. > You WILL feel vibrations through the car, especially if a snapped valve > or three is trying to punch through the combustion chambers > into the water jacket. Well, I totally agree with your "get a second opinion", but I will say that the shop I took it to was very reputable and the mechanic was very experienced. That being said, I still dont trust the mofo. He did however tell me that he would not change my timing belt. He would not take my money. As far as the car is concerned, it simply stalled pulling out of the gas station, and wouldnt start afterwards. At first it sounded like maybe the starter was not working, as the cranking sound, sounded lower than normal, but no pinging or knocking or loud noises. Simply sounded like the car was spinning and spinning trying to start. QUESTION: If the timing belt is not working, will the valves move when cranking? I would think they wouldnt. -Rob > You WILL also hear the speed of the starter varying, maybe briefly stalling > at times. > I would obtain a second opinion ... its WAY to easy for a typical garage > (who are out to make money to survive) to say "oh broken this, snapped that, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > show them how to build unreliability in. (The use of scotchblock connectors > is an example). > So .. get a second opinion. > (Just stripped a m20 head in 25 minutes flat ... yea i'm quick!!). > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.824 / Virus Database: 562 - Release Date: 28/12/2004 > If the timing belt is not working, will the valves move when > cranking? I would think they wouldnt. If it has broken, the camshaft doesn't turn therefore the valves can't operate. Sometimes a worn belt can jump a tooth or two and cause even more damage. If it breaks, the damage is restricted to those valves which are open at the time. If it slips, they're all vulnerable. Signature*Gaffer tape - The Force, light and dark sides - holds the universe together* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. I once opened up an m20 2.0 small six which had broken four valves, two had been stamped sideways into the pistons. .... The cause in this case wasn't a broken or slipped timing belt, some dodgy dickhead of a mechanic hadn't tightened the camshaft sprocket retaining bolt enough (he probably tightened it up against the timing belt, rather than using a sprocket holding tool). After a few thousand miles the bolt worked loose, the sprocket started advancing/retarding against the dowel peg in the end of the cam until it had created a slot in the cam sprocket. Then one day ... bang!!! Never trust a mechanic who: 1/ Has to work against the clock, some dealerships set tight time limits on certain jobs, not allowing for problems along the way (like fixings buggered up by the last mechanic in there). 2/ Drops tools when the tea break bell sounds .... a sure recipe to forget to tighten the odd bolt here and fix up the odd cable there. I know someone who once worked at a rover dealership who asked his friend (who worked at a vauxhall dealership) to change the clutch on a his rover 414 because he didn't know how to do it. At least he was honest!! SignatureRegards.... Steve Currently mashing together a hybrid bmw engine. > > If the timing belt is not working, will the valves move when > > cranking? I would think they wouldnt. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > damage. If it breaks, the damage is restricted to those valves which are > open at the time. If it slips, they're all vulnerable. > > Now i know for a fact, that any bmw engine cranked on the starter > > with broken/bent valves floating around (due to broken belts) will [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > QUESTION: If the timing belt is not working, will the valves move when > cranking? I would think they wouldnt. The cam won't move, so it won't be obvious. If a valve is being struck by the piston it will move but you probably can't see it from the top. -Russ. >>I guess our bad for not doing preventative maint > Just curious, do the phrases "oil change", "oil filter", and "air > filter" sound at all familiar to you? Just curious, do the phrases "Kiss my a.s dickface", "f.ck you cocksucker", and "Eat sh.t and die!" sound at all familiar to you? > >>I guess our bad for not doing preventative maint > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Just curious, do the phrases "Kiss my a.s dickface", "f.ck you cocksucker", and > "Eat sh.t and die!" sound at all familiar to you? Yes, they come out of the mouths of immature brats on the net all the time. -Russ. |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.