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Car Forum / BMW Cars / February 2005XDrive on '05 325xi?
Is the 2005 325xi "AWD" system the same as the X3/X5 XDrive? "Bob" <rljames@hotmail.com> wrote > Is the 2005 325xi "AWD" system the same as the X3/X5 XDrive? No. The 325xi/330xi continue with the 33%/66% constant F/R split system. FloydR '01 330xi Will there be a AWD E90? If so, will that have xDrive? I saw an article that said "Like all modern cars these days, the new 3 Series is expected to be offered with an AWD package adapted from the X3 driveline at some stage in its life, which is also in addition to the traditional rear-wheel drive setup." http://www.webwombat.com/motoring/news_reports/bmw-3-series-e90.htm BTW - The 2005 325xi has 38% front / 62 % rear torque split. >> Is the 2005 325xi "AWD" system the same as the X3/X5 XDrive? > > No. The 325xi/330xi continue with the 33%/66% constant F/R split > system. > > FloydR '01 330xi And I was told by both my saleperson and service manager that the 2005 series 3 AWD *is* he same as the X3/X5... > Will there be a AWD E90? If so, will that have xDrive? > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >> FloydR '01 330xi "Bob" <rljames@hotmail.com> wrote > And I was told by both my saleperson and service manager that the 2005 > series 3 AWD *is* he same as the X3/X5... http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/3/330xiSedan does not confirm their wishful thinking. Floyd 3 series AWD is still the original AWD which actually is 38% front / 62% rear and full time. the xdrive being added to the new 5 series has been confirmed as the same xdrive setup as the X3 and X5 with is infinitely variable front and rear it is likely that the new 3 will receive this update as well but i have not heard a confirmation of this yet. 330xi@canada.com > Is the 2005 325xi "AWD" system the same as the X3/X5 XDrive? Seems kinda strange that both salesperson and service guy would tell me 2005 325xi and X3/X5 AWD was the same... Makes me wonder what else they said wasn't true... Anyhow, assuming you guys are right and 325xi is "original" 38/62 system, what are the Pros & Cons of this approach over XDrive? Also wondering about things like... If I've got 2 back and 1 front wheel on ice does the remaining traction wheel get "full" (100%) power as needed? Someplace I can get a better understanding in detail on how these systems work? > 3 series AWD is still the original AWD which actually is 38% front / > 62% rear and full time. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >> Is the 2005 325xi "AWD" system the same as the X3/X5 XDrive? > Seems kinda strange that both salesperson and service guy would tell me > 2005 325xi and X3/X5 AWD was the same... Makes me wonder what else they > said wasn't true... Yeah, that's the whole problem with salesmen; they'll say anything to make a sale. > Anyhow, assuming you guys are right and 325xi is "original" 38/62 system, > what are the Pros & Cons of this approach over XDrive? The Pros revolve mostly around simplicity. The Automatic Differential Braking (ADB) is just another mode of ABS that stops spinning wheels, allowing the opposite wheel on that axle to get torque. The fixed-split planetary gearset is light, simple and not likely to break (unlike the Torsen-like system it replaced.) The Con is that it's not really able to apply full engine power (DSC kicks in to prevent wheelspin), especially on dry roads which makes it not as "performance-oriented" compared to Audi's system. > Also wondering about things like... If I've got 2 back and 1 front wheel > on ice does the remaining traction wheel get "full" (100%) power as > needed? It won't get 100%, since the torque split will prevent that, but it will get torque (which Subaru & Audi can't claim.) > Someplace I can get a better understanding in detail on how these systems > work? Best bet is old Car & Driver issues in the library. Floyd Floyd, Thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it. I'll see what I can find in Car & Driver. In the meantime let me run this by you... The whole idea behind my interest in a 325xi is as a safe replacement for my wife's FWD Passat equipped with Michelin Alpins during the winter. We both really like the VW 90% of the time but I'd like something a little better for her during some of our pretty bad driving days here in Upstate NY. How will the BMW 38/62 AWD system with manual transmission compare to FWD in real world use? The 325xi I'm looking at comes with Pirelli P6's, will I need to replace them with "winter" tires for snow & ice? (BTW, isn't the DSC system "defeatable" via a dash switch which would allow full power to any wheel?) Thanx again, Bob >> Seems kinda strange that both salesperson and service guy would tell >> me 2005 325xi and X3/X5 AWD was the same... Makes me wonder what else [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Floyd > In the meantime let me run this by you... The whole idea behind my > interest in a 325xi is as a safe replacement for my wife's FWD Passat > equipped with Michelin Alpins during the winter. We both really like the > VW 90% of the time but I'd like something a little better for her during > some of our pretty bad driving days here in Upstate NY. My 330xi has Pilot Alpine's on it! The car is way better in snow than my wife's Toyota Highlander with all-season Toyo tires, or my T100 Truck. As long as it doesn't get high-centered, it's almost unstoppable. It climbs the road to our vacation home (10:1 grade) with no problems whatever. Directional stability is far better - it doesn't slew around because the tread grips not only longitudinally but laterally (which all-season's aren't very good at.) > How will the BMW 38/62 AWD system with manual transmission compare to FWD > in real world use? The 325xi I'm looking at comes with Pirelli P6's, will > I need to replace them with "winter" tires for snow & ice? See above. Although all-season tires are ok in snow (mine came with Continental Contact all-seasons), the snows are far better. The BMW system is designed to make the car drive more like a RWD than FWD. You can kick out the rear end with DSC defeated, and it will kick a little before the DSC catches it. The combination of snow tires, ADB and DSC give astonishing acceleration in snow/ice conditions. The difference in traction (on snow) between all-seasons and full-on snows like the Pilot Alpine's is at least the difference between (performance) all-seasons and "summer" performance tires. I have a separate set of rims and tires for summer (325i sport package 7.5" rims with 225/45 Pilot MXM currently.) They add substantial handling improvements on dry roads, at the cost of a little ride harshness and noise. > (BTW, isn't the DSC system "defeatable" via a dash switch which would > allow full power to any wheel?) Yes, and you should do so if you're climbing steep hills and need full power. Evidently, pushing and holding the button for 3-5 seconds defeats the ADB, too, although I haven't done that. Floyd Thanks again... So is the 325xi worth the money? Not a trivial purchase for me and I'm having a hard time deciding... I've read just about everything I could find on the 325 which seems to suggest it is. But just when I convince myself the car is fairly priced for what you get I pick up the paper and see $19k AWD Subaru or Suzuki ads. One big concern is cost of ownership after the 4/50 warranty period. Bob >> In the meantime let me run this by you... The whole idea behind my >> interest in a 325xi is as a safe replacement for my wife's FWD Passat [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Floyd "Bob" <rljames@hotmail.com> wrote > So is the 325xi worth the money? Not a trivial purchase for me and I'm > having a hard time deciding... I've read just about everything I could > find on the 325 which seems to suggest it is. But just when I convince > myself the car is fairly priced for what you get I pick up the paper and > see $19k AWD Subaru or Suzuki ads. One big concern is cost of ownership > after the 4/50 warranty period. Well, *I* think they're worth it; so do almost all other BMW owners. But I've owned them since '78, so you have to take that into account. My experience on maintenance costs is fairly typical, I believe; anything that will go wrong goes wrong in the first couple of years. It's well worth it to join BMWCCA and find the local independent garages; they're substantially less expensive than the dealer, and in general won't try to sell you service you don't need. The one thing to keep in mind is that they are cars, just like any other brand; they won't be perfect, they will have problems. But I don't think they're any more expensive than any other car to maintain. And they age much more gracefully than most other cars. A Subaru WRX is a really good buy, though, for similar or better performance. Doesn't the Passat come with Synchro AWD? Floyd > "Bob" <rljames@hotmail.com> wrote >> So is the 325xi worth the money? Not a trivial purchase for me and [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Floyd The VW Passat does come with a "4Motion" AWD option which I understand to be similar, if not identical, to Audi Quattro. And I did consider another Passat but given the fact that VW is changing 2006 model year style two different dealers in my area tell me that finding a 2005 v6 "4Motion" in a color I like would be almost impossible. Also pricing, MSRP at least, would be very close to a 325xi. .. >The VW Passat does come with a "4Motion" AWD option which I understand to >be similar, if not identical, to Audi Quattro. And I did consider another IIRC, at least in the past, Audis and VW's with a transverse engine (A3, Golf) come with the Haldex system, which is not AWD (since it only delivers torque to rear wheels once a front wheel loses grip) and the ones with longitudal(?) (A6) come with Torsen, which is a true AWD system like xDrive. This may change in the future, I've heard a rumor all future Passats will be Haldex only. Annoyingly, the badges ('Quattro', '4Motion') alone do not tell which 4WD system the car has. Make sure you know what you get, and determine if you really care whether you have AWD or an automatically switching 4WD :) -- harri 525ixT -95 >Passat but given the fact that VW is changing 2006 model year style two >different dealers in my area tell me that finding a 2005 v6 "4Motion" in >a color I like would be almost impossible. Also pricing, MSRP at least, >would be very close to a 325xi. Just thought I'd post an update to all that were very helpful in answering my *many* novice questions. I took the plunge and put a deposit down on a 2005 325xi with manual transmission. No real options (heated seats and Xenons) to speak of and not exactly what I wanted but close enough to buy off the lot. So now I'm excited but also worried about getting through the last of winter on the factory equipped Pirelli P6 tires... I'm thinking about Nokian Hakkapeliitta RSI's for next season but probably can't find a decent price, get them in hand and mounted in time for this year. Anyhow, "Thanks Again" to all that helped with feedback. > Just thought I'd post an update to all that were very helpful in > answering [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Anyhow, "Thanks Again" to all that helped with feedback. Where are you located, Bob? ...and do you have another car to drive if the going gets really sloppy? The xi models do come with "all-season" tires (some say "no-season") so with them being new and all, you could likely get through the last couple of months of winter OK. Heck some bone-heads never get winter tires and still drive through snow storms. They apparently have no regard for their own personal saftey and are well insured. ;-) But you also may luck out and get some snow tires at close-out prices. I'd check out things at http://www.tirerack.com/index.jsp and also see if your local stealership has any winter tire packages laying around he wants to clear out. -Fred W >Thanks again... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >myself the car is fairly priced for what you get I pick up the paper and >see $19k AWD Subaru or Suzuki ads. One big concern is cost of ownership Subaru is one of the very few manufacturers who have an excellent full-time 4WD (AWD) system. Most Audis still have the Torsen, which is excellent too, but many of the other VAG offerings (and Volvo) have the Haldex which is *not* full-time AWD (it only delivers torque if the wheels slip). BMW of course has a real AWD system, although the new systems no longer have any differential locks. Don't know about Suzuki, but I'd think they don't really have AWD, but rather something that only switches on when the front wheels slip. That can be nice too, but AWD is much better IMO (it works all the time). The dealers and marketers of course obfuscate this the best they can, Honda talks about 'real-time 4WD' (another non-AWD). Some Haldex systems distribute 1-2% of the torque to rear wheels all the time, which of course mean that they are full-time 4WD, but in practice they are FWD cars until the a front wheel loses the grip. VW rants about saving fuel because the AWD isn't used 99% of the time. Which is silly, since the rear wheels and axles still use gas to rotate. The only real saving is that the transmission system on a non-AWD car can be made much weaker since it's practically never used :) Some of the small economy SUVs have a rear wheel transmission shaft which are about as thick as a finger. If the decision is between Subaru and BMW, the deciding factor isn't the AWD system. Both are excellent and durable. -- harri 525ixT -95 >after the 4/50 warranty period. > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >> >> Floyd >Floyd, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >How will the BMW 38/62 AWD system with manual transmission compare to FWD >in real world use? The 325xi I'm looking at comes with Pirelli P6's, will it will blow any FWD (and RWD) away on snow, like any full-time AWD. the difference is incredible. it makes the snow "go away" - acceleration is almost like in summer. no matter how you push the pedal the steering and handling will stay neutral. this is also the biggest potential problem: braking is not more efficent, it's easy to get too comfortable to drive fast on bad weather and if you're going too fast into a corner you'll hit the woods regardless of AWD, DSC or other acronyms. >I need to replace them with "winter" tires for snow & ice? yes. proper winter tires such as Nokian Hakka's, and not one of those M+S things. >(BTW, isn't the DSC system "defeatable" via a dash switch which would >allow full power to any wheel?) as far as I know, yes. -- harri 525ixT -95 >Thanx again, >Bob [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >> >> Floyd that was a very good analysis Harri. i'm not uptodate on subaru's AWD but i do know that you do not get the same system in an impressa or outback as you do on a WRX - they use a simplified version on the less expensive cars ( my wife has an outback - i should know this stuff ) anyway as you pointed out, by no means do so called awd systems get employed equallly or guarenty traction i just witnessed a test run of an audi quattro on 90 degree skidpad turn at 35kms/hr and it washes out but the BMW without AWD just DSC negotiates crleanly and accurately at the same speed. 330xi@canada.com >>Floyd, >> [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] >>> >>> Floyd >that was a very good analysis Harri. thanks. >i'm not uptodate on subaru's AWD but i do know that you do not get the same >system in an >impressa or outback as you do on a WRX - they use a simplified version on >the less expensive cars >( my wife has an outback - i should know this stuff ) WRX has more diff locks (front axle) and more electronics, but at least the older regular imprezas/legacys still had a decent full-time AWD. hopefully they still do :) how does the outback AWD compare to the 330xi, btw? >anyway as you pointed out, by no means do so called awd systems get employed >equallly or guarenty traction > >i just witnessed a test run of an audi quattro on 90 degree skidpad turn at >35kms/hr hmm. which audi? :) if it was an A3 quattro it'd have the Haldex system which is not necessarily much good on a skidpad. best regards, -- harri 525ixT -95 >and it washes out but the BMW without AWD just DSC negotiates crleanly and >accurately >at the same speed. > >330xi@canada.com >>>Floyd, >>> [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] >>>> >>>> Floyd 330xi drives like a rear wheel drive, the subaru does not. and of couarse, the quality of components and how well they last does not compare. the comparison i saw was a A6 quattro against a 530i and A4 quattro against a 325i the bmw's before awd handled better and safer than the audis with no A3's in canada 330xi@canada.com >>that was a very good analysis Harri. > [quoted text clipped - 113 lines] >>>>> >>>>> Floyd >Seems kinda strange that both salesperson and service guy would tell me >2005 325xi and X3/X5 AWD was the same... Makes me wonder what else they >said wasn't true... Everything you heard when his mouth was moving ;-) >>Seems kinda strange that both salesperson and service guy would tell >>me [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Everything you heard when his mouth was moving ;-) From his mouth to your ears. ;-) --Fred W >>Seems kinda strange that both salesperson and service guy would tell me >>2005 325xi and X3/X5 AWD was the same... Makes me wonder what else they >>said wasn't true... > >Everything you heard when his mouth was moving ;-) Heh. I can seem quite aloof to the average car salesman, but I can't help feeling annoyed, while examine the car, that I invariably know more about it than he does. Then there's the inevitable jackass questions: "What are you driving today"? "What do you do for a living?" Umm... What the HELL does any of that have to do with this car that I'm thinking about driving? Do you think we might talk about the CAR? > >>Seems kinda strange that both salesperson and service guy would tell me > >>2005 325xi and X3/X5 AWD was the same... Makes me wonder what else they [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > any of that have to do with this car that I'm thinking about driving? > Do you think we might talk about the CAR? Not do ignore your point, there are ulterior motives for both those questions. But the legitimate content is there too. Examples: What you are driving today tells him a) your frame of reference in evaluating a car b) what you may or may not like in a car since you picked this other car previously c) what particular things about this car that he can show you to contrast from your current car and influence your buying decision. d) some things that he can point out about your previous car that you might not like to draw out a discussion that helps him meet your previously unmet needs. What you do for a living tells him e) some of the potential uses the car will be put to f) what sort of diving habits your job might require of you g) if you have special domain knowledge about cars due to your job h) how a car may relate to your visibility or social status in the community or at your workplace i) how the experience of other existing customers is, that do the same job and have selected his products in the past. It also helps build rapport with a potential customer to understand what he does for a living, what he does for fun, and what his family status is, so that you can speak to him on his terms or at least be interested in him and begin to learn what sorts of things might be important to him, so that the dealer can figure out if he is able to provide you with a product that helps meet those needs. Or, you could just consider him a jackass and move on to someone that cares nothing about you, and just talks about the car. -Russ. to respond to BOB's question, no vehicle on the market gives 100% drive force to one wheel. on xdrive, it is infinitly variable front to back so it has the possibility of being 100% at either end. when you do not have traction on three wheels and grip on one then you have 50% available at that corner. on the 3 series xi, when you have grip at only one front corner you have 50% of the 38% total available power and when you have grip at only one rear corner you have 50% on 62% total available power it was designed this way to offer the best rear wheel handling feel and avoid torque steer. most competitors mechanical systems are front wheel drive until extra traction is deemed necessary. this is why they do not handle like a BMW although xdrive would be a better all round traction and safety system, the 3 series was design with the aggressive driver in mind. i can still fling it around in bad weather like my previous BMW's but the add traction is phenominal. 330xi@canada.com > Seems kinda strange that both salesperson and service guy would tell me > 2005 325xi and X3/X5 AWD was the same... Makes me wonder what else they [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> >>> Is the 2005 325xi "AWD" system the same as the X3/X5 XDrive? |
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