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Car Forum / BMW Cars / March 2005I need a better winter car...
My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple of minutes. Same scenario, hit a snowdrift and snow goes flying onto the windshield. I brake because I can't see anything, and then I'm stuck... :-( First time, notice how little snow it actually takes: http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw1.jpg http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw2.jpg Second time, this time the car stopped in the next snowdrift: http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw3.jpg http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw4.jpg Notice that both times I'm stuck completely *on* the road. I'm leaning more and more towards a 525xi, nothing like AWD to avoid getting stuck. :-) Ulf Well there are a number of seniors here .1# you must always adjust your driving to the conditions of the road always always.2# You must have 4 snow tires on you vehicle some drivers can do with 2 but I say 4.you do not have the same rear-end as the newer 3-series so having said that.I want to say I live in a part of the world call Canada yes and where I live we get lots of snow I mean lots so if you have experience and most of all drive to the conditions of the roads you will be fine. I often see lots of Japanese 4BY4's and others in the ditch its how you drive I have all ways driven BMW from the 3s to x5 and I feel so good in the x5 but if I chose to drive foolish I know I will wind up in the ditch too. > My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, > but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Ulf > My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles > great, but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I'm leaning more and more towards a 525xi, nothing like AWD to avoid > getting stuck. :-) This is a joke right? You don't look like your "on the road" to me. Looks like you drove into the snowbank. Also, do you have snow tires on the thing (can't tell) -Fred W >>My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles >>great, but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > You don't look like your "on the road" to me. Looks like you drove > into the snowbank. Well, the "snowbank" was *on* the road. :-) Here are two more pictures. In the first I'm parked *off* the road while taking the picture. This is also before I got stuck as you can see by the front only being covered by road grime and not snow. In the second picture, compare how much of the amber sticks, marking the edges of the road, is viable on the right vs. the left side of the road. I'd estimate that it's between two and three feet of snow *on* the road on the right side. I'm standing pretty much in the middle of the road in this picture too. http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw5.jpg (original size) http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw6.JPG > Also, do you have snow tires on the thing (can't tell) Yup, studded snow tires. > -Fred W Ulf | >>My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles | >>great, but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] | > | Ulf Look, if that snowbank WAS on the road, timing, not sedan version, is your problem. If you NEED to drive when the snow on the road is higher than your bumper, how much imagination does it take to realize that it's ground clearance you need, and not the inch or so difference between e30, e34, or ix variants. Once you manage to use the snow as a ramp, and take the weight off the wheels, it wont much matter how many of them are spinning, or if it has tires or paddlewheels on it. There is a reason that plows are pushed by the type of machinery that pushes them. The common denominator is ground clearance. BMW's are lousy submarines, too. Let me save you the trouble of test diving various models. -- I picked up a 2001 740i as a winter car. It already had a set of Hakkap.......something Swedish snow tires on it. I find the weight of the vehicle and the tires is more than enough to get me through the snow. > My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, but > I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple of [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Ulf >I picked up a 2001 740i as a winter car. It already had a set of >Hakkap.......something Swedish snow tires on it. I find the weight of the >vehicle and the tires is more than enough to get me through the snow. The Hakapelittas (sp?) make a huge difference. The extra weight of a heavier car does not help. ------------- Alex >>I picked up a 2001 740i as a winter car. It already had a set of >>Hakkap.......something Swedish snow tires on it. I find the weight of the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > ------------- > Alex Hakkapelittas are nuts. I had a set (Hakka 10's) once on a Saab 900 and nothing, nothing could stop me in the snow. Not even studded. They were awesome traction.  Signature---------------------- http://www.saab-900.tk The Saab Tech Resource ---------------------- > I had a set (Hakka 10's) once on a Saab 900 and > nothing, nothing could stop me in the snow. Of course that is bullshit.....heh >Hakkapelittas are nuts. I had a set (Hakka 10's) once on a Saab 900 and >nothing, nothing could stop me in the snow. Not even studded. They were >awesome traction. Obviously, you've only driven in light snow. Be reasonable. When the snow is over your bumper, tires are not the answer. You need more clearance. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" >>Hakkapelittas are nuts. I had a set (Hakka 10's) once on a Saab 900 and >>nothing, nothing could stop me in the snow. Not even studded. They were [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Be reasonable. When the snow is over your bumper, tires are not the > answer. You need more clearance. Never had Hakkapelitas eh? Signature---------------------- http://www.saab-900.tk The Saab Tech Resource ---------------------- >>>Hakkapelittas are nuts. I had a set (Hakka 10's) once on a Saab 900 and >>>nothing, nothing could stop me in the snow. Not even studded. They were [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Never had Hakkapelitas eh? What good do they do when the snow lifts those wonder tires enough to lose traction? When the snow is high enough to lift the vehicle high enough that the tires don't any longer have enough weight on them to gain traction, better tires are *NOT* the answer. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" >>>>Hakkapelittas are nuts. I had a set (Hakka 10's) once on a Saab >>>>900 and [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > tires don't any longer have enough weight on them to gain traction, > better tires are *NOT* the answer. Snow will not magically elevate your car. The stuff is generally pretty light, especially if light and drifted, and can be pushed aside as the car plows through it if you have the traction to do so. Sorry, but you are wrong. Good traction *is* the answer. -Fred W "The Malt Hound" <Malt_Hound@*no spam please*yahoo.com> wrote > "Big Bill" <bill@pipping.com> wrote >> What good do they do when the snow lifts those wonder tires enough [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Sorry, but you are wrong. Good traction *is* the answer. Sorry, Fred, but *YOU* are wrong. I've been high-centered enough to know this. And my Pilot Alpines won't save me. However, the usual method is that the surface that the tires are packing in the snow - higher than the road surface - gives way leaving you high and spinning. Floyd >>>>>Hakkapelittas are nuts. I had a set (Hakka 10's) once on a Saab >>>>>900 and [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >pretty light, especially if light and drifted, and can be pushed aside >as the car plows through it if you have the traction to do so. Did you see the OP's photos? If not, I sugest you do so. Then you will see what I mean. >Sorry, but you are wrong. Good traction *is* the answer. Well, I learned how to drive in the snow in Pa. I learned that when you simply plow into the snow, and it gets packed under the car, it lifts you up, and the tires lose traction. I haven't noticed any changes in show that would have changed this, and, seeing the OP's pics, I am confident in saying that. I wonder where you drive that this is not so. >-Fred W SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > Well, I learned how to drive in the snow in Pa. > I learned that when you simply plow into the snow, and it gets [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and, seeing the OP's pics, I am confident in saying that. > I wonder where you drive that this is not so. I learned to (and currently) drive in the snow in northern New England. What you say is definitely true should you drive into a bank or pileup created by a snowplow. But if it is just unpacked deep snow, you can definitely go through snow as high or higher than the bumper. YM(and snow)MV, -Fred W > > Well, I learned how to drive in the snow in Pa. > > I learned that when you simply plow into the snow, and it gets [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > YM(and snow)MV, > -Fred W Fred, you are a knowledgeable guy but you are wrong on this one. You are guaranteed to get stuck if you insist on plowing through snow that does not clear the underside of your car. It's one thing to go over a short bump on the road but you cannot plow through a distance on this stuff, regardless of what kind of wheels you are driving. Wheels have to touch "ground" with sufficient weight to provide traction. The reason is simple - if the underside of your car touches the snow, your car will become a very inefficient snowplow and the snow will bunch up against the underbody of your car and pack itself. The momentum of your car will eventually leave your wheels "hanging" from the "ground". As the weight of the car diminish from the packed snow, the amount of traction you get from whatevr tire or drivetrain will vanish. You will get stuck as you try to move through this kind of condition. Clearance is the issue if your tires can provide traction on the surface. Snow must not touch the underside of your car. Of course, if your tires are wrong then clearance doesn't matter. You're not even moving. > > > Well, I learned how to drive in the snow in Pa. > > > I learned that when you simply plow into the snow, and it gets [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > this stuff, regardless of what kind of wheels you are driving. Wheels > have to touch "ground" with sufficient weight to provide traction. Sorry, I've done this for hundreds of meters at a stretch in snow up to the bumper in my iX -- ie if you stop and open your doors you are pushing snow out of the way. It packs into the brake ducts and covers the fog lights and the openings to the oil cooler, and leaves a neat trail behind me, but it doesn't stop me. Guaranteed or not, I've done it. > The reason is simple - if the underside of your car touches the snow, > your car will become a very inefficient snowplow and the snow will [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the amount of traction you get from whatevr tire or drivetrain will > vanish. Ever looked under an E30? It's flat from the front crossmember back with only a couple of very minor protrusions. The only way what you say would be true is if the front was higher than the back so that snow was wedging the car upwards. > You will get stuck as you try to move through this kind of condition. > Clearance is the issue if your tires can provide traction on the > surface. Snow must not touch the underside of your car. Of course, if > your tires are wrong then clearance doesn't matter. You're not even > moving. Again, if your air dam is plowing it, snow doesn't touch the underside of your car because it's flat. -Russ. "Somebody" <somebody@nospam.russdoucet.com> wrote > Again, if your air dam is plowing it, snow doesn't touch the underside of > your car because it's flat. Two things you have neglected in your discussion. 1) If you try to go through a drift, the front wheels are likely to plane up on the more densely packed snow, then drop down the other side, which puts the car into a teeter-totter on the drift. 2) A car is often higher in the front, either due to weight/loading, or by weight shift (granted, small if you're a smart winter driver), or by the action of the air dam deflecting snow downward. FloydR > > Again, if your air dam is plowing it, snow doesn't touch the underside of > > your car because it's flat. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > or by weight shift (granted, small if you're a smart winter driver), or > by the action of the air dam deflecting snow downward. 1) I mentioned in my previous post 2) short of a huge weight in the back most cars aren't lower in the back. Some air dams form a wedge to push it downwards, (most bimmers) have a wedge to push snow upwards. -Russ. > "fbloogyudsr" <fbloogyudsr@nwlink.com> wrote >> > Again, if your air dam is plowing it, snow doesn't touch the underside [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > 1) I mentioned in my previous post > 2) short of a huge weight in the back most cars aren't lower in the back. Wrong. Most BMW's have pretty even weight distribution - figured with driver only. Add more passengers and the car is rear-heavy. Unless the car (7-series, wagons) has self-levelling suspension, it's down at the back. > Some air dams form a wedge to push it downwards, (most bimmers) have a > wedge > to push snow upwards. Wrong. My 330xi will push it down. My '91 525i will push it down. A modern 5-series has a very rounded front-end when viewed from the side. Even if the lower edge is quite sharp (possibly M3/M5) with no fence (and they all have a flexible fence due to curb rash possibilities), physics tells us that the act of splitting the flow (of the snow over the edge) will result in upwards force on the dam. The *only* exception to this would be a perfect snowplow resting on the perfect plowed surface with no snow between the blade and surface. Never happen. Floyd > > "fbloogyudsr" <fbloogyudsr@nwlink.com> wrote > >> > Again, if your air dam is plowing it, snow doesn't touch the underside [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > on the perfect plowed surface with no snow between the blade > and surface. Never happen. Well I guess my car is the bumblebee then, because I have no trouble plowing snow. -Russ. >> > > Well, I learned how to drive in the snow in Pa. >> > > I learned that when you simply plow into the snow, and it gets [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > > -Russ. There's no use arguing the point Russ. You know, it's really not that big of a thing guys... it just depends on how light and fluffy, or wet and compact the snow is. Yes, you can high center a car on snow that's been compacted. But you can also blast through it if it has not been compacted. Now... can we move on or what? -Fred W > Now... can we move on or what? Don't be a dick, Fred. If you want to move on, then do so. This isn't a circle jerk. People can have conversations without your input or approval. >> Now... can we move on or what? > > Don't be a dick, Fred. If you want to move on, then do so. This > isn't a circle jerk. > > People can have conversations without your input or approval. I can't remember you ever contributing anything worthwhile and you continue to be prick. I'm done with you. <plonk> >> People can have conversations without your input or approval. > > I can't remember you ever contributing anything worthwhile I can't remember caring much what you remember. > and you continue to be prick. Only to you, the self-anointed infallible god-send on this ng. > I'm done with you. It would be better if you were done with believing yourself infallible, but hey...I'll take what I can get from a blind-minded egotist. .. >You are guaranteed to get stuck if you insist on plowing through snow >that does not clear the underside of your car. It's one thing to go ...that piles up on the underside of the car. >over a short bump on the road but you cannot plow through a distance on >this stuff, regardless of what kind of wheels you are driving. Wheels >have to touch "ground" with sufficient weight to provide traction. it depends on the quality and structure of the snow. if there is light, fresh snow at -10C it will generally not pack under the car. if there's a hard, packed bank of snow blown by the wind or a plough at 0C, there's a fair chance of getting into problems. we've got snow from Nov to April, and winter tyres are mandatory. during my 15 years of winter driving with RWD cars I've gotten stuck on the road (showelwork and/or pushing required) twice: once by losing traction on an hill, and once by parking on a spot where there was packed snow which collapsed under the wheels (but not under the car). >The reason is simple - if the underside of your car touches the snow, >your car will become a very inefficient snowplow and the snow will >bunch up against the underbody of your car and pack itself. The my current AWD 525ix is quite a good snowplow actually, drove it on a frozen lake once and couldn't really see because of all the snow flying on the windshield... in practice, with summer tires you will lose traction before the packing happens, unless you're driving 50mph+, in which case one is a complete idiot IMO :) >momentum of your car will eventually leave your wheels "hanging" from >the "ground". As the weight of the car diminish from the packed snow, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >your tires are wrong then clearance doesn't matter. You're not even >moving. the difference between winter and summer tyres on ice can be visualized by thinking about running on an iceskating rink with a) ballroom dancing shoes and b) heavy studded army boots. >> Well, I learned how to drive in the snow in Pa. >> I learned that when you simply plow into the snow, and it gets packed [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > created by a snowplow. But if it is just unpacked deep snow, you can > definitely go through snow as high or higher than the bumper. Interesting. I live above Vail Colorado. We see a lot of snow. We've been seeing a lot of snow all our lives. We are somewhat used to a lot of snow. Yet no one around here is able to plow down the road in their 3,500 lb car in over the bumper snow with the ease you suggest New Englanders enjoy. I don't buy it. In snow as deep as being spoken about here, cars tend to ride up and lose all or some of the contact patch. It's just the way it works when a car has limited clearance in deep snow. Plus, I don't think Hakka's are the best snow tires for where I live anyway (to keep context correct, the tires I have owned were the Hakkapelita Q). They are pretty effective in fresh snow (braking, acceleration), crappy in slush or heavily wetted snow and lateral traction in any snow is about as bad as I have ever experienced which cause them to not track well. Superb ice tire though. I got the sense the tire is designed for conditions where the temps are uncommonly low all the time and every snow fall eventually becomes hardpack and then ice. I can imagine these tires are spectacular in that kind of condition. For my money, for the area where I live, the Blizzak MZ-02 seems to suit the conditions best. But only when the car in question can maintain the contact patch. > Interesting. I live above Vail Colorado. We see a lot of snow. We've been > seeing a lot of snow all our lives. We are somewhat used to a lot of snow. > Yet no one around here is able to plow down the road in their 3,500 lb car > in over the bumper snow with the ease you suggest New Englanders enjoy. Same in Northern Scotland. > I don't buy it. In snow as deep as being spoken about here, cars tend to > ride up and lose all or some of the contact patch. It's just the way it > works when a car has limited clearance in deep snow. I agree, and I've driven in snow deep enough to get my 2500kg landrover 4.0V8 beached out and going nowhere! > Plus, I don't think Hakka's are the best snow tires for where I live > anyway [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > contact > patch. When it snows heavy here, the best tyres for my landrover are...... Leave it at hom and take the Landy to work! ;-) Badger. > >>>>>Hakkapelittas are nuts. I had a set (Hakka 10's) once on a Saab > >>>>>900 and [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > and, seeing the OP's pics, I am confident in saying that. > I wonder where you drive that this is not so. I think that comes down to the airdam. If you airdam is low enough, snow will either get plowed or pile up in front of the car. If it is higher than the undercarriage, snow will build up under the car, starting with the lowest points of the undercarriage and proceeding to all sections that occur lower than the airdam's lower lip. On the E30 if you have an iS lip, it's low enough. An i lip will still not allow any significant buildup under the car. With no lip, you will get buildup in front of the steering gear and the front crossmember, which will get into the belts eventually. Nothing behind the front crossmember is any lower than that so it won't build up back there. Regardless, snow in that seciton is not likely to lift the front up, and if it did, the drive wheels are still in traction. It would be very difficult to build up enough snow to lift the rears. Now, breeching a drift is another story... you can blast the front wheels up and over it, and then settle the car down on the crest of the drift and high center it just as the rears begin to get lifted up. Hit it hard enough and momentum will carry you through regardless Go slowly enough and you will tend to plow it out of the way and not allow anything under the car, but might get stuck when the rears get into the middle of it if you have bad tires -- with good ones, the rears will still bite and you'll continue on. -Russ. -Russ. >>>>>Hakkapelittas are nuts. I had a set (Hakka 10's) once on a Saab >>>>>900 and [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > -Fred W It is possible to drive through very very deep snow with the right vehicle. I've driven through snow that was 6ft. deep with my old Chevy S-10 4wd. Traction how ever wasn't my main problem engine power to maintain forward movement was. The only time I got stuck was when I chose to high of a gear going over a 6 ft drift. The engine bogged down and when I tried to downshift all forward motion stopped and it sank. This little truck only weighed 3000 lbs and the bottem of it was shapped like a sled. It had enough downward suspention travel to dangle the front tires more than 16 inches below the lowest point of the chassy and the rears would go even lower. It also had about 11 inches of ground clearence on dry ground. Tires were pretty ordinary all-terrain truck tires. Oh, and to the Jeep touting dude, that worthless little S-10 would (and did) run circles around my Jeep CJ7 in the snow. Serious off roading, mud, rocks, ect the jeep was far superior. >>>>Hakkapelittas are nuts. I had a set (Hakka 10's) once on a Saab 900 and >>>>nothing, nothing could stop me in the snow. Not even studded. They were [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > tires don't any longer have enough weight on them to gain traction, > better tires are *NOT* the answer. Coupled with a vehicle that has a smooth underbody that doesn't catch the snow underneath... Signature---------------------- http://www.saab-900.tk The Saab Tech Resource ---------------------- That's because you drive a shitty European piece of sh.t... Snow ..."your suvee is NOT a JeeP and my JeeP is NOT a suvee" > My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, but > I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple of [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Ulf Ah.. I love Jeep mentality "a shitty peice of sh.t" nice!!!... Thats why Rovers are always pulling them out....Your JeeP is not the best offroader out there so how about you sit back and have a nice cup of "shut the f@$k up". Sorry bout that ....First off the snow looks a little deep, I would expect to get stuck in that. Only thing I would recommend is 300lbs of salt in the trunk, you can also use it to melt your way out but it does help traction. Other than that, momentum and chains. My personal opinion is that the bimmers are kind of "sleds" in the snow. But they are great for wet or dry roads... its just the damn snow that impedes them... My M3 hasnt left the garage in snow since I slid into a curb and had to replace the front bumper. Good luck!! "> Ah.. I love Jeep mentality "a shitty peice of sh.t" nice!!!... Thats > why Rovers are always pulling them out....Your JeeP is not the best > offroader out there so how about you sit back and have a nice cup of > "shut the f@$k up". Never seen any Land Rovers around here. But I have pulled many of European crap out of ditches, pulled even more Asian riced crap out. Advantages of driving for a towing service :P... oh and yes pulled a few JeePs out too. Snow......"your suvee is NOT a JeeP and my JeeP is NOT a suvee" > "> Ah.. I love Jeep mentality "a shitty peice of sh.t" nice!!!... Thats >> why Rovers are always pulling them out....Your JeeP is not the best [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Advantages of driving for a towing service :P... oh and yes pulled a few > JeePs out too. Like almost anything to do with stuck cars, it generally has little importance what they are driving.....bad drivers can get stuck in almost any car they drive, and good drivers can manage to move safely no matter how difficult the vehicle they seem to be piloting. And while I myself really love Jeeps and own two, neither Jeep nor Land Rover make the best full line 4x4/off-road vehicles...that honor goes to Land Cruiser. We, and Europe, just don't get some of their best units. In SOuth Amercia you can find LC's that are superb. Built like monster and perform with ease and capability. I am even of an opinion that Jeep and LR don't match up against some of Mistu's 4x4's, but then Mitus doesn't have a full line of off-roaders. By the way JeFf Strickland (I remember you from the r.a.m.j.w) have you seen the LC FJ40 coming to the states in a couple years. Beautiful little retro 4x4 with starting price around 23, 000 (according to AutoWeek). Jeeps in for a fight when Toyota lands that little bugger on our shores. The kids are gonna love it. > > "> Ah.. I love Jeep mentality "a shitty peice of sh.t" nice!!!... Thats > >> why Rovers are always pulling them out....Your JeeP is not the best [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > car they drive, and good drivers can manage to move safely no matter how > difficult the vehicle they seem to be piloting. Evidenced by me today passing everyone in the ditch in my rental -- worst peice of crap I ever drove in the winter. It's a Sebring with worn all seasons, no ABS, no traction control, no balance, no visibility, fogging windows, no feedback, sheesh. I could barely navigate the dang thing around town much less on snow-covered highways. But somehow I stayed between the lines. On days like those, I've kept count of what types of cars are populating the ditches, and given up. Everything from rice rockets to Euro sedans to SUVs to pickup trucks. No patterns have been observable from my seat. -Russ. >> Like almost anything to do with stuck cars, it generally has little >> importance what they are driving.....bad drivers can get stuck in almost > any >> car they drive, and good drivers can manage to move safely no matter how >> difficult the vehicle they seem to be piloting. > On days like those, I've kept count of what types of cars are populating > the > ditches, and given up. Everything from rice rockets to Euro sedans to > SUVs > to pickup trucks. No patterns have been observable from my seat. That is 100% correct. When the vehicle ends up in a ditch, and hasn't been forced their by another car, it is almost always the drivers fault. In most cases they drove in a manner unfit for the conditions. And despite the electronic wizardry of the day, and the wonderful tire choices we get, it hardly matters much if you don't or can't drive "down" to the ambient conditions. My BMW's have always been quite good in the snow if driven properly. They don't match my Jeeps or my pickup, but they do quite well if I drive as good as the car is for the conditions I am driving in. As has been mentioned here before, with most cars clearance is the great equalizer even if you have 4 or AWD and the best snows money can buy. The guy here who talks about driving his Saab thru snowbanks taller than the car.........well, my bet is that he's seen a few ditches in his time :^) Cruisers, seriously... well, at the risk of trolling I would venture that a stock Rangie would eat a stock Cruiser for breakfast. and if you are going out of country, look to the Australian Rovers. I will digress with this though, vehicle capability is limited by the driver, a good driver in a bad 4x will go farther that a bad driver in a good 4x. > Cruisers, seriously... well, at the risk of trolling I would venture > that a stock Rangie would eat a stock Cruiser for breakfast. You'd be venturing off course. Be careful of the hype....."Bigger Nuts"...."Best4x4xFar"....and all that jivin' cosmic debris. Land Cruiser is the preeminent full lineup of 4x4s in the world. I suspect you simply don't have any perspective for what types of vehicles they distribute throughout the world. Don't get hung up on the soccer-mom-mobiles you see here. The US, and in fact most Western countries, only get the pretty ones. I don't know anybody with any experience who would choose a LR over a LC, if capability and strength were the only issue. Unfortunately things like service and parts come into play and post-british colonial countries tend to be supplied for LR's in greater amount than they are LCs because of those relationships. If you hit the Middle East, which in my view is about as difficult as overall conditions get, you won't see many LR's. It is almost all Japanese from Pajeros, to Patrols, to LC's. Neither the Jeep nor the LR's measure up to those vehicles. And who knows precisely what the new Defender will bring to the table. I think it gets shown at Geneva in the next couple days, with a release later this year. Really, anyone who claims differently simply doesn't have the experience to know any better. Sorry. And just for purpose of being factual: The Defenders sold in Australia are actually South African models. The only model specific to Australia (I think) was the Defender fitted with BMW's 2.8 petrol engine...some years ago. The SA models will likely remain as the "Classic" and only sold in countries where they still will meet emission, safety and other vehicle legislation. Our British friends on this ng could correct me if I am wrong about models and release dates. What you need to do (so you get to upset some 4x4 drivers) is to let the rear tyres down to 10psi, and fit narrow front tyres. And don't ... repeat ... DON'T work the throttle/clutch like a track driver!! I did this in a citroen axgt (small french front wheel drive car) although my driven tyres were at 10psi and the rears were at normal pressure. Quite funny when you get to drive around three people pushing an estate car which got stuck in the snow ... onto the grass, then back onto the road. Makes 'em stand around scratching heads!!! SignatureRegards.... Steve > That's because you drive a shitty European piece of sh.t... > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > > > Ulf > My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, but > I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple of > minutes. Same scenario, hit a snowdrift and snow goes flying onto the > windshield. I brake because I can't see anything, and then I'm stuck... > :-( Hey, Safari Beige...my first Bimmer, an E21, was Safari Beige. I wish I would have kept that car. Your photos remind me of that. > My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, > but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple > of minutes. Same scenario, hit a snowdrift and snow goes flying onto the > windshield. I brake because I can't see anything, and then I'm stuck... :-( Wow! And I thought my E30 saw serious snow in the winter! I'm assuming your on snow tyres. Time for a 325iX I think ;-) > I'm leaning more and more towards a 525xi, nothing like AWD to avoid > getting stuck. :-) My techie runs a '93 525iX touring with snow tyres, little stops it :-) SignatureWho needs a life when you've got Unix? :-) Email: john@unixnerd.demon.co.uk, John G.Burns B.Eng, Bonny Scotland Web : http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk - The Ultimate BMW Homepage! Need Sun or HP Unix kit? http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/unix.html >> My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles >> great, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > assuming > your on snow tyres. Time for a 325iX I think ;-) psha!! That snow's not all that deep. He just ran the car into the snow bank and didn't have good winter tires... -Fred W >>My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, >>but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Wow! And I thought my E30 saw serious snow in the winter! I'm assuming > your on snow tyres. Time for a 325iX I think ;-) Yeah, but I'm looking to upgrade to an E34. I like the styling better, plus, it's a bigger car. Of course, the downside is that it's probably not as fun to drive as an E30. >>I'm leaning more and more towards a 525xi, nothing like AWD to avoid >>getting stuck. :-) > > My techie runs a '93 525iX touring with snow tyres, little stops it :-) I'm sure there must be something. :-) Ulf how about getting a decent set of winter tyres first. crap tyres + AWD will only get you into more trouble... to.e-mail.see@homepage wrote: >My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, >but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Ulf An x5 seems right in case you really like to drive in the snow ;-) And its a nice car too - I dont have any problems in the snow we get here in denmark.. /Henrik > My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, but > I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple of [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Ulf >My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, >but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw1.jpg >http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw2.jpg You look like your on the shoulder in those >Second time, this time the car stopped in the next snowdrift: > >http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw3.jpg >http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw4.jpg > >Notice that both times I'm stuck completely *on* the road. No, this time you're definitely *OFF* the road. >I'm leaning more and more towards a 525xi, nothing like AWD to avoid >getting stuck. :-) Why not move where it doesn't f.cking snow so bloody much? >Ulf > Why not move where it doesn't f.cking snow so bloody much? I'm not the OP, but I know the answer to that one" 'cause that's where all the other people live... There is a lot of value in being away from the rest of humanity. -Fred W > There is a lot of value in being away from the rest of humanity. Are you implying that where Ulf lives, humanity doesn't exist :^) >>My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, >>but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > You look like your on the shoulder in those Nope. >>Second time, this time the car stopped in the next snowdrift: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > No, this time you're definitely *OFF* the road. Again, no. All four wheels were on the (icy) asphalt. I know, I was there. >>I'm leaning more and more towards a 525xi, nothing like AWD to avoid >>getting stuck. :-) > > Why not move where it doesn't f.cking snow so bloody much? I actually doesn't snow that much here, but when it rains, it pours... >>Ulf Ulf >> Why not move where it doesn't f.cking snow so bloody much? > >I actually doesn't snow that much here, but when it rains, it pours... Yeah, right - then why are you considering getting a different car? > My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, > but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple > of minutes. Same scenario, hit a snowdrift and snow goes flying onto the > windshield. I brake because I can't see anything, and then I'm stuck... :-( In snow, momentum is your friend. You don't need a better car. Just turn the wipers on high before you hit a drift, pay attention to the road beyond the drift and keep moving. -Dave >>My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, >>but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the wipers on high before you hit a drift, pay attention to the road beyond > the drift and keep moving. -Dave Yeah, but it takes several seconds before the vipers get enough snow off the windshield so that I can see. Just look at the third and fourth picture. Another problem is that the car pulls in the direction the snow is deepest. I both these cases that was to the right, as you can see on the pictures. So if I were to keep going I might actually end up in the ditch, and I'd rather get stuck on the road than off the road... Ulf Then clean your windows of BEFORE you venture out and use the wiper delay to keep it clear.. oh and also clean of your head and tail lights too.. Snow... Heh... My Saab, I can drive through snowbanks taller than the car and have no problem on bald summer performance tires... you know before Bombardier and the Ski-Doo, people drove Saab 93's instead... > My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, > but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Ulf Signature---------------------- http://www.saab-900.tk The Saab Tech Resource ---------------------- > Heh... My Saab, I can drive through snowbanks taller than the car No you can't........heh >Heh... My Saab, I can drive through snowbanks taller than the car and >have no problem on bald summer performance tires... you know before >Bombardier and the Ski-Doo, people drove Saab 93's instead... I usd to have a Yugo; in a really bad snowstorm, the Wyoming roads department called me to come up there and clear the roads so their plows could get through. Honest! SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, > but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I'm leaning more and more towards a 525xi, nothing like AWD to avoid > getting stuck. :-) Once I was a passenger in the iX that I eventually bought, and the test driver put it backwards into a ditch. It was very wide, about 3 feet deep, but completely covered with snow. We were in at an angle, one front was sort of near the road surface, the back was deep in the drift. The car was tilted at a crazy angle. She was freaking out. "put it in gear and drive it out" I said. "No way" she said. She did it. Sure enough, the thing drove right out. Left a giant hole in the bank that was visible for weeks. After owning it for 4 years, I've never met anything my iX couldn't handle. As long as you don't hang the undercarriage up on something so bad that the wheels are off the ground, it's so surefooted it's spooky. I use proper snow tires of course. The main problem I have is snow packig into the brake ducts and knocking them loose. http://www.russdoucet.com/bimmertech/ix-winter/iX(006).jpg I don't have any action shots, if I get a chance I'll take some next big snowstorm. :-) -Russ. >My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, >but I get stuck everywhere! Next time, try the bus. >Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple >of minutes. Same scenario, hit a snowdrift and snow goes flying onto the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw3.jpg >http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw4.jpg What, did that snowdrift jump out in front of you? You DROVE IT INTO that snowdrift. And WTF are you doing driving around on unplowed country roads? Just so you could take these silly pictures, I'll wager... ;) SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ > >My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, > >but I get stuck everywhere! [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > on unplowed country roads? Just so you could take these silly > pictures, I'll wager... ;) Why not? I do it all the time. Not for pictures though, just for kicks. -Russ. 1988 iX > My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, > but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw1.jpg > http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw2.jpg Why didn't you steer to the left of that bank in the first place? Did you meet an oncoming car? If you did you could have slowed down and let it pass, then drive past the snowbank on the left side. At least it looks like it from the pictures. > Second time, this time the car stopped in the next snowdrift: > > http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw3.jpg > http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw4.jpg Now, that is just plain silly. You hit that snowdrift hoping to float over it - the result is obvious. We used to amuse ourself with that kind of driving conditions where I grew up. We always kept a showel in the back though - and a few friends in the car to push us out. > Notice that both times I'm stuck completely *on* the road. > > I'm leaning more and more towards a 525xi, nothing like AWD to avoid > getting stuck. :-) Oh, you'll get stuck alright. Just farther into the snowdrift and in need of a tractor to pull you out. Either that or wait for spring... It's fun to drive around in snowy conditions, but before you do I'll second the opinion of many here: Get a pair of decent snowtires, and skills to go with it. I'm curious - where have you got that kind of snow conditions? We barely have any snow here nowaways. Here being Norway. :-/ Signatureazoth@dod.no ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Wenn im Zweifel, Volleistung! DoD#2101 azoth@dod.no, '90 BMW 318i When in doubt - floor it! Yea, How cool is that, never seen that white stuff myself....and you guys get to test your 4WD's in it :-) Currently 35C here today...a bad winter goes to around 5C (and we call that "freezing" :-) ) If we had snow like that I'd find a) a good woman, b) pron c) a book & sit by a fire & drink rum. OH&S must have rules about people getting to work in that stuff? Cool pics anyhow. > I'm curious - where have you got that kind of snow conditions? We barely > have any snow here nowaways. Here being Norway. :-/ >If we had snow like that I'd find a) a good woman, b) pron c) a book & sit >by a fire & drink rum. I understand a) and c), but what does a pronoun do for you?? If that's supposed to be "porn", I think you need to concentrate on actually getting a). It makes porn redundant. :-) SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, > but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple > of minutes. Same scenario, hit a snowdrift and snow goes flying onto the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw3.jpg > http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw4.jpg "Little" snow? Any standard sedan is going to get stuck when the freakin' snow level comes up to the headlights. >My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, >but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I'm leaning more and more towards a 525xi, nothing like AWD to avoid >getting stuck. :-) Looks like you need more practice driving in the snow. The center of the road looks fine. Keep it down the middle and you should be fine. You should also get 4 snow tires to help you keep it down the middle. ------------ Alex >>My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, >>but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > road looks fine. Keep it down the middle and you should be fine. You should > also get 4 snow tires to help you keep it down the middle. Contrary to popular opinion I do actually know how to drive in the snow. I'm also unhappy to report that the car did not survive the snow as good as I thought. It appears I have a oil leak somewhere, because there's a big puddle of oil under the car and despite adding two liters of oil it's still below the "min" mark on the dipstick... :-( This means I'll have to start parking on the street to avoid further complaints as well as checking the oil level daily. *aghh* Can't wait for spring! > ------------ > Alex Ulf > I'm also unhappy to report that the car did not survive the snow as good > as I thought. It appears I have a oil leak somewhere, because there's a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > as checking the oil level daily. *aghh* Can't wait for spring! > Ulf I wonder if the leak might be coming from a bad oil pressure sender. It's the cylindrical object near the crank pulley on the passenger (US/Canada) side of the block. That's a common leak point on M20 engines and a 15-minute repair. It would take quite awhile for it to lose three liters of oil, though. Leaking oil cooler/line, maybe? I'm not sure if the 323 *has* an oil cooler, but they can be vulnerable to damage. (As an '87 325i owner, I have firsthand experience.) Russ >>I'm also unhappy to report that the car did not survive the snow as good >>as I thought. It appears I have a oil leak somewhere, because there's a [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > cooler, but they can be vulnerable to damage. (As an '87 325i owner, I have > firsthand experience.) Nope, I don't have an oil cooler. Thanks for the oil pressure suggestion though, I was thinking a leaking oil pan myself. The damn thing seems to smack the ground every other time I drive over a speed hump... > Russ Ulf I have 95 318is...always winter driven with 4 snows in very heavy snow (Quebec City). Manual trans (big help) & when necessary extra weight in trunk over axle (e.g...couple bags of sand). Never had problem ...knock on wood. padraig > My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, > but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Ulf |
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