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Car Forum / BMW Cars / April 2005Another Disappointing BMW Dealer
Hi, I recently took my car to a BMW main dealer for a brake fluid change and a new window regulator and I had asked them to have a quick look at the front brakes while it was in as I was getting a shimmy. They called and said it needed new front discs and pads and I asked for a quote. The quote was about ?325 fitted. After I'd coughed, I said that I could get it done cheaper elsewhere and she explained that they would have to charge me around ?75 labour as the mechanic had already took the brakes apart. I didn't authorise the work as I've done the brakes myself in the past and they've been OK, so decided that I'd do them myself again. When I'd obtained the parts and started to do the work, I couldn't get the wheel nuts off!! It immediately struck me that the dealer must have put the wheels on too tight, and I went on to theorise that they maybe did this on purpose because I didn't authorise the work, however they still charged me! I decided to use my torque wrench in reverse to approximate what torque they had been put on at by starting at 100Nm and working my way up 10Nm at a time. I needed in excess of 130Nm in the opposite direction to remove the nuts. To put this into perspective, BMW documentation says they should be tightened to 100Nm. So they were far too tight by about 30% and I would never have loosened them without the extra length of the my torque wrench. So if I had a puncture I wouldn't have been able to install the spare at the road side!! As I previously paid the dealer the ?75 or so to refit the brakes and tighten all this up do you think I should complain ? I've not named the dealer but I will do if anyone is interested. MC would love to know. would it be Scotthalls perchance????? > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > MC > I've not named the dealer but I will do if anyone is interested. You might as well do. It won't make any difference. They're all w.nkers.  Signature*Geeks shall inherit the earth * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > Hi, > > I recently took my car to a BMW main dealer for a brake fluid change Do you think they really changed the fluid? and > a new window regulator and I had asked them to have a quick look at the > front brakes while it was in as I was getting a shimmy. Never get BMW to "have a quick look" at anything. > tightened to 100Nm. So they were far too tight by about 30% and I would > never have loosened them without the extra length of the my torque wrench. > So if I had a puncture I wouldn't have been able to install the spare at the > road side!! I have a similar problem but because the dealer lost the locking wheel nut key... ...not that I have a spare anyway. > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > I've not named the dealer but I will do if anyone is interested. A things about your diatribe above: You say you could not remove the bolts because they were too tight by 30%? I'm not sure that I would have even have noticed the difference. I always use a (long) breaker bar to remove lug bolts. How closely do you think your torque wrench is calibrated? 30% error (or that much difference between yours and theirs, which is also quite possibly uncalibrated) would not be unreasonable. It is also quite likely that they used a torque stick on an air wrench of some kind. Many do. Over torquing by 30% is not as serious a problem as under torquing by that amount or uneven torquing. I would not have been so upset by this as long as all the bolts seemed tightened evenly. I'm pretty sure, (but don't know the exact reason why) that the torque required to remove a fastener will be higher than the torque to tighten it by some amount. Perhaps it's overcoming the initial friction? Yes, you did authorize the work to investigate the cause of the shimmy. You said take a "quick look", which is what they did and charged you for the labor to do that. Did you suppose that they should diagnose your car for free? I'm not sure that you got "screwed" by this dealer. It sounds like you are looking for something to whine about. Maybe you should have just looked at the brakes yourself to begin with? -Fred W > > Hi, > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > They called and said it needed new front discs and pads and I asked for > > a quote. The quote was about ?325 fitted. After I'd coughed, I said that I > > could get it done cheaper elsewhere and she explained that they would have > > to charge me around ?75 labour as the mechanic had already took the brakes > > apart. I didn't authorise the work as I've done the brakes myself in the > > past and they've been OK, so decided that I'd do them myself again. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > > > As I previously paid the dealer the ?75 or so to refit the brakes and > > tighten all this up do you think I should complain ? > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > required to remove a fastener will be higher than the torque to tighten > it by some amount. Perhaps it's overcoming the initial friction? Starting friction is higher then moving friction. This is why you should always torque on a stroke, and not by pushing at a stationary nut. (poorly worded but you get what I mean? I'll expand if not) So yes, the torque required to release a nut is higher than the torque rating that was used to apply it. The difference is literally the difference between starting and sliding friction for that apparatus. Try it yourself, torque a bolt to 100Nm and then see what it takes you to untorque it. I don't know the difference in your case -- it may indeed be that they overtightened them. On my car, the manual specified 80lb/ft, but if i do that, they will come loose, so I torque them to 105lb/ft. Slightly over torque is not that big a deal. Slightly under could cause the wheel to part company with the car. > Yes, you did authorize the work to investigate the cause of the shimmy. > You said take a "quick look", which is what they did and charged you > for the labor to do that. Did you suppose that they should diagnose > your car for free? I'm in agreement. What they did was perfectly logical given the request. Many small shops will in fact diagnose for free, but they aren't obligated to, and the free diagnosis is usually predicated on the idea of getting the follow up work revenue. When you ask for strictly a diagnosis, you should expect to pay for the diagnostic time. They may be overcharging you for the brakes, but... it's a dealer, what did you expect? -Russ. To re-iterate, the nuts wouldn't come off with a short bar. My breaker bar is shorter than my torque wrench, about half length. It needed one hell of a tug to get them to come off. I only carry the cars own tool kit with me when I'm on the move so it would have been difficult or impossible for me if I had to put the spare on (and even more so for a bird!). When I've previously fitted the wheels myself using my wrench to 100Nm they always come off nicely afterwards and they've never worked loose either. MC >> > Hi, >> > [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] > > -Russ. > To re-iterate, the nuts wouldn't come off with a short bar. My breaker bar > is shorter than my torque wrench, about half length. It needed one hell of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > MC The fact that it took a lot of effort isn't really that relevant, the question is how much ove torqued were they. You've shown a most they were 30% over, which I don't think is negligent or dangerous in any way. Inconvenient, yes. Harder than you've had before, yes. Hard to do with inadequate tools, yes. That's a shame, but not exactly actionable. I keep a rather large Johnson bar in the trunk of my car; I've found the factory tool to be just this side of useless. But I bought an auto club membership for my wife -- no "bird" will need to be changing wheels on our cars. -Russ. > To re-iterate, the nuts wouldn't come off with a short bar. My breaker > bar is shorter than my torque wrench, about half length. It needed one [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to 100Nm they always come off nicely afterwards and they've never > worked loose either. I've never come across a wheel nut that can't be loosened by jumping on the supplied wheel brace - assuming it doesn't break. ;-) Of course I don't wear high heel shoes. Well, not in public. Signature*I started out with nothing, and I still have most of it. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > To re-iterate, the nuts wouldn't come off with a short bar. My breaker > bar is shorter than my torque wrench, about half length. Anything I'd call a breaker bar with a 1/2" drive will be longer than any common torque wrench. Like about a metre. Signature*If vegetable oil comes from vegetables, where does baby oil come from? * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. I always expect a free quotation. MC >> > Hi, >> > [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] > > -Russ. > I always expect a free quotation. > > MC A free quotation on the cost of diagnosis would be appropriate. -Russ. > I always expect a free quotation. > > MC You can expect all you want. The reality is no automotive technician worth his salt is going to give away free labor. If you go somewhere that claims to give free quotations, they are just padding the labor charges of the jobs that they do get to compensate. You know... no free lunch, and all that. -Fred W Maybe the learning point here is that when you ask a dealer to have a quick look, you should also stipulate that you only authorise them to undertake work to the value of ?x, and that you will not pay for anything in excess of this. If the cost to inspect is larger than ?x, then the dealer either has to make you aware of this prior to commencing work, or has no right to charge you in excess of ?x for the work. > > I always expect a free quotation. > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > -Fred W >> I always expect a free quotation. >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > -Fred W Ha! maybe that's the case where you are Fred, but it's an outdated approach that the $tealers will catch up to eventually. I ALWAYS give free quotations for my work, I DO NOT "pad out" other labour charges to compensate and I find that this approach has earned me a reputation for absolute honesty and trustworthiness that you just couldn't buy. As a result, I get more custom, a lot of this being both repeat custom from happy customers and also their friends and relatives through their recommendations. Badger. > >> I always expect a free quotation. > >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > recommendations. > Badger. Lets be clear here: Are you giving free quotations or free diagnostics? Specifically to the OP's issue.. if you had to disassemble something to figure out what the problem was, and then the customer did not want to get it fixed, is that labor free? -Russ. >> >> I always expect a free quotation. >> >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Lets be clear here: Are you giving free quotations or free diagnostics? Free quotations was what I was responding to, hence my statement of "always giving free quotations for my work". FWIW, as far as diagnostics goes (talking purely in terms of computer diagnostics here), if someone asks me to diagnose a fault, I charge for my time only if I can give them a solution, for example - your abs light is on because the lh rear sensor has failed. If I cannot offer a solution, for example the computer cannot identify a fault, then I do not charge for that. Lets face it, it's only taking me 10min to hook up and run the test anyway, and at the end of the day every 3rd or 4th test on average will lead to me getting the job to do - I consider the time spent diagnosing to be an investment, not a loss of earning time. Just the way I work, I suppose. > Specifically to the OP's issue.. if you had to disassemble something to > figure out what the problem was, and then the customer did not want to get > it fixed, is that labor free? > > -Russ. In the case of the OP, he instructed the dealer to investigate so if investigating entails dismantling of components, (not quite the same thing as diagnosis in the computer sense), then he is liable for the labour charges. if someone says to me "can you take a look at my brakes and tell me what the grating noise is", then it only takes a couple of minutes to look at the pads and tell them they need brake pads. If they say "can you find the clunking noise as I go round corners", then that is obviously going to take a lot longer and would be billed accordingly. The chances are that if they are asking in the first place, then they aren't likely to tackle the fix themselves and I will be doing the job anyway. Badger. Well said Badger. What you said is right. The main dealers have all the BMW special tools and electronic diagnosis gear but I feel that the training and experience of the mechanics is well below par. For example: I had to take my car in on three occasions some time ago before they diagnosed the faulty air mass sensor which was giving me obvious drivability problems. Sometimes the common sense that experienced mechanics have is lacking at the main dealers. They charge such a high price for labour but I expect more for my money and I will always expect a free initial diagnosis/inspection/quotation as I may be shopping around for the best deal as I do with most things. MC >>> >> I always expect a free quotation. >>> >> [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > tackle the fix themselves and I will be doing the job anyway. > Badger. All costs should be discussed up front before any work is done on the car. And any ambiguity should be discussed eg, they should say: 'it may take an hours labour maximum' but it should always be clear to the customer, who is normally only a phone call away. The dealers are wrong when they add on significant charges for work where some kind of agreement on price hasn't been made. When they quote for routine services they stick by the price. I hate the fact that when I go to a main dealer for work I have to discuss my problems with a girl who has obviously never had her hands under the bonnet and hasn't got a clue. With my brake problem a simple chat with a technical person may have highlighted the problem without everything being stripped out. It must happen a lot: My dad once took his BMW for a service and they installed new brakes without asking him. With a lot of complaining he made them put the car back to how it was before, without charge! Now my frustration has passed and I've had all your feedback I've decided not to bother with the complaint about the wheel nuts being too tight. More hassle than it's worth. I just won't be using that particular dealer again so they'll be losing my business. They won't care though because there are plenty of other BMW owners to rip off!! MC >> I always expect a free quotation. >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > -Fred W is there actually any chance of you following through and naming the dealer???? > All costs should be discussed up front before any work is done on the car. > And any ambiguity should be discussed eg, they should say: 'it may take an [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >> >> -Fred W > is there actually any chance of you following through and naming the > dealer???? Thought not. w.nker. >> All costs should be discussed up front before any work is done on the >> car. And any ambiguity should be discussed eg, they should say: 'it may [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >>> >>> -Fred W > All costs should be discussed up front before any work is done on the > car. And any ambiguity should be discussed eg, they should say: 'it may > take an hours labour maximum' but it should always be clear to the > customer, who is normally only a phone call away. Sounds like you live in some Utopia. > The dealers are wrong when they add on significant charges for work > where some kind of agreement on price hasn't been made. When they > quote for routine services they stick by the price. I can only talk about my experiences with several UK BMW dealers and say - if only. They seem hell bent in adding on as many 'extras' as they can - and expecting the customer to pay up sheep wise. > I hate the fact that when I go to a main dealer for work I have to > discuss my problems with a girl who has obviously never had her hands [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > With a lot of complaining he made them put the car back to how it was > before, without charge! At my last - and final service *ever* with my dealer, when doing a couple of routine checks before even driving the car off, and finding the oil level on minimum - after a change - the so called 'service manager' made it clear he thought I couldn't check the oil level properly. On giving him a tissue and telling him to check it him self, he then said it wasn't possible to for it to be low as they used a measuring system to put the new oil in - despite the evidence of the dipstick. And couldn't quite understand when I called him a fool. Only in rather stronger terms. A subsequent complaint to BMW GB - about this and other things regarding that particular service - brought no satisfaction, other than passing my complaint back to the dealer. Whose head office I'd already CC'd the letter to. > Now my frustration has passed and I've had all your feedback I've > decided not to bother with the complaint about the wheel nuts being too > tight. More hassle than it's worth. That's what they want. Fleece you and expect you to grin and bear it. > I just won't be using that particular dealer again so they'll be losing > my business. They won't care though because there are plenty of other > BMW owners to rip off!! That's how they work. My local dealer has changed hands three times in as many years - at least once after (UK) trading standards took them to court. But BMW GB don't give a f**k about anything other than selling cars. Signature*When the going gets tough, use duct tape Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > That's how they work. My local dealer has changed hands three times in as > many years - at least once after (UK) trading standards took them to court. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW > To e-mail, change noise into sound. I got a flyer from Coopers last week in which their slogan is "When only the best will do". The printers must have missed off the "..go elsewhere" MB UK has taken direct control of the dealerships in all the major conurbations. Aim was to improve and standardise service. I had used only one franchised dealer in the past and under the last private ownership wasn't so bad. DAS For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- >> That's how they work. My local dealer has changed hands three times > in as [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > only the best will do". The printers must have missed off the "..go > elsewhere" |
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