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Car Forum / BMW Cars / May 2005New six cylinder engines have no dipstick
OK, maybe I'm slow on the uptake. But I've only just realised the new sixes have no dipstick! I'm GUESSING they just have an idiot light or MID error message for low oil level. When that comes up I suppose you either guess how much oil to add or add a fixed amount (say a litre). What fun. I think idiot light is a great idea. But personally if I'm about to undertake a long journey I like to know if the oil's at the top mark on the dipstick or near the bottom and soon to need a top up.  SignatureWho needs a life when you've got Unix? :-) Email: john@unixnerd.demon.co.uk, John G.Burns B.Eng, Bonny Scotland Web : http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk - The Ultimate BMW Homepage! Need Sun or HP Unix kit? http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/unix.html > OK, maybe I'm slow on the uptake. But I've only just realised the new > sixes have no dipstick! I'm GUESSING they just have an idiot light or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > about to undertake a long journey I like to know if the oil's at the top > mark on the dipstick or near the bottom and soon to need a top up. It's only a matter of time until you'll get a sealed-for-life engine in BMWs I reckon. It's alomost possible even now; the Northstar V8 for instance.) I'd still prefer to replace the fluids on a regular basis whether the manufacturer's service data said I needed to or not. JB >> OK, maybe I'm slow on the uptake. But I've only just realised the new >> sixes have no dipstick! I'm GUESSING they just have an idiot light or [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > manufacturer's service data said I needed to or not. > JB And even in the late 70's, some (normally older) people still believed that they had to remove their heads and carry out a decoke every 30,000miles and rebore at 60,000!! Like any other technological advancement before, it would take quite some time to be accepted by the majority of the population, with a small % never ever accepting it. (Look where we are now as regards people not wanting to accept the ability of a modern synthetic longlife oil to work for 13,000 miles, wasting money by changing it at 7000ish) Badger. >>>OK, maybe I'm slow on the uptake. But I've only just realised the new >>>sixes have no dipstick! I'm GUESSING they just have an idiot light or [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > miles, wasting money by changing it at 7000ish) > Badger. Perhaps, but somehow going from a linear mechanical display of oil level (aka dipstick) to a binary indication (idiot light) does not seem like progress to me... Perhaps if they provided and "oil level indicator" in the check control or something that told me how low the oil was, not just when it was too low? I can't believe that would be all that expensive and it sure would be cool... -Fred W > Perhaps, but somehow going from a linear mechanical display of oil level > (aka dipstick) to a binary indication (idiot light) does not seem like > progress to me... Especially considering BMW's shitty electrical systems. I wouldn't trust one of their dials for something like this, ever. Besides, pulling out an oil dipstick is something all men are supposed to enjoy. There's nothing like pulling that stick out, and feeling and eyeballing that oil between the thumb and index finger, right? -- Cliff > OK, maybe I'm slow on the uptake. But I've only just realised the new > sixes have no dipstick! I'm GUESSING they just have an idiot light or [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Web : http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk - The Ultimate BMW Homepage! > Need Sun or HP Unix kit? http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/unix.html I'm guessing its like the CSL with a "digital dipstick" on the OBC which shows the level to .1l (I think). > I'm guessing its like the CSL with a "digital dipstick" on the OBC which > shows the level to .1l (I think). That I can live with. Until it breaks (seen loads of 15+ year old BMWs with faulty oil level idiot lights). Dipsticks tend not to break, and I imagine they're cheaper. SignatureWho needs a life when you've got Unix? :-) Email: john@unixnerd.demon.co.uk, John G.Burns B.Eng, Bonny Scotland Web : http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk - The Ultimate BMW Homepage! Need Sun or HP Unix kit? http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/unix.html > Dipsticks tend not to break, and I imagine they're cheaper. Which of these benefits BMW and/or its repair facilities? >>Dipsticks tend not to break, and I imagine they're cheaper. > > Which of these benefits BMW and/or its repair facilities? I know this question was rhetorical, but I would counter that both attributes would directly and indirectly benefit the manufacturer. They don't break - less repairs under warranty which is completely funded by the manufacturer. Direct financial benefit. They're cheaper? Well, that's pretty obvious. If they don't cost as much to make and yet they get the same price from a consumer, well, that goes right to the bottom line... Now, there's one more thing that you can do with an electronic oil level gauge that you can't do with a dipstick and that's record the oil level in the ECU memory in the event of a failure. That could be a way for the manufacturer to dodge major warranty claims based on negligence. -Fred W >> I'm guessing its like the CSL with a "digital dipstick" on the OBC >> which shows the level to .1l (I think). > > That I can live with. Until it breaks (seen loads of 15+ year old BMWs > with faulty oil level idiot lights). Dipsticks tend not to break, and > I imagine they're cheaper. Many of the 15 year old BMWs I've seen have nothing electrical still working, but at least the dipstick still does. Heck, you can drive most of them *another* 200k in that condition, and then some. Matt O. BMW doesnt want you to have the cars that long so when engine goes on no oil u gotta buy another one > >> I'm guessing its like the CSL with a "digital dipstick" on the OBC > >> which shows the level to .1l (I think). [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Matt O. > OK, maybe I'm slow on the uptake. But I've only just realised the new > sixes have no dipstick! I'm GUESSING they just have an idiot light or > MID error message for low oil level. When that comes up I suppose you > either guess how much oil to add or add a fixed amount (say a litre). > What fun. I think idiot light is a great idea. But personally if I'm > about to undertake a long journey I like to know if the oil's at the top > mark on the dipstick or near the bottom and soon to need a top up. Both my E39 528 at 80,000 miles and my 150,000 mile ancient Rover SD1 with the Buick V-8 will run to oil change time without needing topping up. However, as with all my cars, I drive them gently until fully warm. But both have low oil level warning systems anyway. I'm happy to see the dipstick go. When last did you dip your fuel tank to know the level? ;-) Signature*The statement below is true. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. <<< SNIP >>> > However, as with all my cars, I drive them gently until fully warm. > > But both have low oil level warning systems anyway. > > I'm happy to see the dipstick go. When last did you dip your fuel tank to > know the level? ;-) <<< SNIP >>> I think this is a flawed analogy. If you run out of gas because of a faulty gauge/warning light, your engine will stop, perhaps inconveniently, and you will undoubtedly stress your fuel pump. If your oil sensor fails, your engine can fail, a much worse situation. Call me old fashion, but I just can't see not having a way to physically check oil levels. - Jon > > I'm happy to see the dipstick go. When last did you dip your fuel tank > > to know the level? ;-) > > > <<< SNIP >>> > I think this is a flawed analogy. If you run out of gas because of a > faulty gauge/warning light, your engine will stop, perhaps > inconveniently, and you will undoubtedly stress your fuel pump. If your > oil sensor fails, your engine can fail, a much worse situation. Call me > old fashion, but I just can't see not having a way to physically check > oil levels. The low oil level light does that for you. Signature*Remember: First you pillage, then you burn. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >>> I'm happy to see the dipstick go. When last did you dip your fuel tank >>> to know the level? ;-) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > The low oil level light does that for you. I guess I'm not clear. I worry that the sensor or light itself will fail thereby not warning about low oil level. No way for a dipstick to fail. Only failure is to not check and in that case the miscreant gets what he deserves. Hmmmm, maybe I am a luddite. In fact, I can remember using a stick to measure the amount of gasoline (I should say petrol) in my old MG TD. It had a low gasoline light that was flacky at best and was very difficult to see in the daylight. By the time I had a '53 Jag XK120MC I had a real gas guage, of course then I had the flacky fuel pump oh so conveniently placed underneath the car -- much sport to get out and under and wack it to get it going again. - Jon > In article > <Pine.A41.4.61b.0505231507061.316054@homer10.u.washington.edu>, >>> I'm happy to see the dipstick go. When last did you dip your fuel >>> tank to know the level? ;-) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> Call me old fashion, but I just can't see not having a way to >> physically check oil levels. > The low oil level light does that for you. Sure, if it's still working. Matt O. > If you run out of gas because of a faulty gauge/warning light, your > engine will stop, perhaps inconveniently, and you will undoubtedly > stress your fuel pump. If your oil sensor fails, your engine can fail, > a much worse situation. Call me old fashion, but I just can't see not > having a way to physically check oil levels. How do you check the oil levels in your gearbox and final drive? Failures of either of these would be an equally catastrophic event. And I'm old enough to remember these too having dipsticks. Signature*Middle age is when work is a lot less fun - and fun a lot more work. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> If you run out of gas because of a faulty gauge/warning light, your >> engine will stop, perhaps inconveniently, and you will undoubtedly [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > of either of these would be an equally catastrophic event. And I'm old > enough to remember these too having dipsticks. Actually, this is easy to do. Simply remove the filler plug and confirm that fluid is just at lower edge of hole. While I don't do this with the frequency of cheking my oil, I do check periodically and I support the petroleum industry by replacing tranny and diff fluids every 50K miles, not believing that any lubricant is "lifetime." But then I keep cars for a minimum of 10 years, often more. Usual clutch life in excess of 185K miles. - Jon > In article > <Pine.A41.4.61b.0505231507061.316054@homer10.u.washington.edu>, >> If you run out of gas because of a faulty gauge/warning light, your >> engine will stop, perhaps inconveniently, and you will undoubtedly [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Failures of either of these would be an equally catastrophic event. > And I'm old enough to remember these too having dipsticks. I'm old enough to remember when they leaked. Matt O. > > How do you check the oil levels in your gearbox and final drive? > > Failures of either of these would be an equally catastrophic event. > > And I'm old enough to remember these too having dipsticks. > I'm old enough to remember when they leaked. And I'm old enough to remember when the majority of engines burnt oil at modest mileage and needed a re-bore perhaps twice before the body disintegrated. These days, most decent engines outlive the bodywork - or other things which send a car to the scrapyard. Signature*Procrastination is the art of keeping up with yesterday. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > In article <3fi8gmF7lvi2U1@individual.net>, >>> How do you check the oil levels in your gearbox and final drive? >>> Failures of either of these would be an equally catastrophic event. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > disintegrated. These days, most decent engines outlive the bodywork - > or other things which send a car to the scrapyard. Absolutely true. Matt O. they dont get replaced. not the same as engine oil. duhhh > > If you run out of gas because of a faulty gauge/warning light, your > > engine will stop, perhaps inconveniently, and you will undoubtedly [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > of either of these would be an equally catastrophic event. And I'm old > enough to remember these too having dipsticks. <top posting corrected> >>>If you run out of gas because of a faulty gauge/warning light, your >>>engine will stop, perhaps inconveniently, and you will undoubtedly [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> > they dont get replaced. not the same as engine oil. duhhh Uh, yes they do. Every Inspection 2. Duh. -Fred W >>If you run out of gas because of a faulty gauge/warning light, your >>engine will stop, perhaps inconveniently, and you will undoubtedly [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > of either of these would be an equally catastrophic event. And I'm old > enough to remember these too having dipsticks. My current daily driver car still has a dipstick in its manual transaxel. But manual transmitions and differentials don't need dipsticks because they will not use up (burn) oil without a visible sign of a leak unlike an engine is capible of doing, but it still isn't hard to check to see if they are full. >> OK, maybe I'm slow on the uptake. But I've only just realised the new >> sixes have no dipstick! I'm GUESSING they just have an idiot light or [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >I'm happy to see the dipstick go. When last did you dip your fuel tank to >know the level? ;-) Cute but lame. So, does this device show the inevitable post-service over-filled condition? No? > >I'm happy to see the dipstick go. When last did you dip your fuel tank > >to know the level? ;-) > Cute but lame. > So, does this device show the inevitable post-service over-filled > condition? A main dealer puts a measured amount of oil in from his bulk supply. If you're changing the oil yourself, you too should do just this. Of course if you rely on an instant service place then that's up to you. But tell me, how do you rectify this 'inevitable post-service overfill'? Signature*When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say? * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> >I'm happy to see the dipstick go. When last did you dip your fuel tank >> >to know the level? ;-) [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >But tell me, how do you rectify this 'inevitable post-service overfill'? First, you check the dipstick when you get the car back - from Audi main line service... >>>I'm happy to see the dipstick go. When last did you dip your fuel tank >>>to know the level? ;-) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > A main dealer puts a measured amount of oil in from his bulk supply. If > you're changing the oil yourself, you too should do just this. Well, yes and no. Yes, this is what they do. That's how you get an over-fill condition. Overfills are not a good thing as it can cause excessive crankcase pressure and blow out seals. No, this is not what you should do. You should fill it up to the pre-measured amount minus a pint or so. Then, start and stop the engine and check the level (after appropriate settling time of course). Finally adjust the level on the dipstick by topping it up. > Of course if you rely on an instant service place then that's up to you. > > But tell me, how do you rectify this 'inevitable post-service overfill'? Ummm... just a guess, but I would drain some off? -Fred W > > A main dealer puts a measured amount of oil in from his bulk supply. If > > you're changing the oil yourself, you too should do just this. > Well, yes and no. > Yes, this is what they do. That's how you get an over-fill condition. > Overfills are not a good thing as it can cause excessive crankcase > pressure and blow out seals. > No, this is not what you should do. You should fill it up to the > pre-measured amount minus a pint or so. Then, start and stop the engine > and check the level (after appropriate settling time of course). > Finally adjust the level on the dipstick by topping it up. On every car I've ever owned, if it says, say, 5 litres for a change including filter, after draining the old oil and changing the filter if you add 5 litres it will read full on the dipstick after it's been run to fill the filter. > > Of course if you rely on an instant service place then that's up to > > you. > > > > But tell me, how do you rectify this 'inevitable post-service > > overfill'? > Ummm... just a guess, but I would drain some off? You get the oil changed by someone then go to all the bother of draining some off yourself? Is this some form of US ritual? I either change the oil myself or get it done properly. ;-) > -Fred W Signature*Bills travel through the mail at twice the speed of cheques * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >>>But tell me, how do you rectify this 'inevitable post-service >>>overfill'? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > some off yourself? Is this some form of US ritual? I either change the oil > myself or get it done properly. ;-) Damn. You caught me again, Dave. You know I just do it myself. I was speculating on the part of the OP. ;-) -Fred W >I'm happy to see the dipstick go. When last did you dip your fuel tank to >know the level? ;-) Fair enough. I've not seen an E90. So does it have an oil level indicator telling the driver how much oil is in the engine, similar to the fuel gauge? Does it have a system to prevent overfilling the engine? If the answer is no to either question, your analogy is very flawed. Would like a car without a fuel gauge and instead only an indicator that warns the driver when fuel is low? > I'm happy to see the dipstick go. When last did you dip your fuel tank to > know the level? ;-) Foo. Now you actually have to jack up the car to change the oil. ;-( SignatureDarryl Okahata darrylo@soco.agilent.com DISCLAIMER: this message is the author's personal opinion and does not constitute the support, opinion, or policy of Agilent Technologies, or of the little green men that have been following him all day. >>What fun. I think idiot light is a great idea. But personally if I'm >>about to undertake a long journey I like to know if the oil's at the top [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I'm happy to see the dipstick go. When last did you dip your fuel tank to > know the level? ;-) I *would* dip my fuel tank before a 200 mile journey if the only indicator on board was a low fuel level warning light. It helps to know how much fuel I have left, as opposed to only knowing if I've almost run out of it. But maybe that's just me. As it happens, the fuel gauge (if it works properly) provides just a tad more info than a "low level warning". In that vein, an oil *gauge* would be a fair replacement for the dipstick. Why don't people find out what the actual situation is before complaining about it. The E90 displays on the on-board computer what the current oil level is. it shows in 1/4 litre intervals and when to add a full litre. This is more acurate than the dipstick ( engine hot or cold ) can be checked at any time from the comfort of the drivers seat, you don't have to be concerned if the oil has settled for a proper reading or putting in too much. The opening for the dipstick is a major opening for possible environmental concerns and has been eliminated to meet the future engine pollution requirements. 330xi@canada.com >>>What fun. I think idiot light is a great idea. But personally if I'm >>>about to undertake a long journey I like to know if the oil's at the top [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > more info than a "low level warning". In that vein, an oil *gauge* would > be a fair replacement for the dipstick. 330xi states: <The opening for the dipstick is a major opening for possible environmental concerns and has been eliminated to meet the future engine pollution requirements. > Really? Can you explain exactly what is this "major opening for possible environmental concerns"? I'm a bit dense and have never had any problems, environmental or otherwise, with a dipstick. Of course, I suppose there can be a problem if you remove the dipstick and start driving around. But who does that?! >330xi states: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >suppose there can be a problem if you remove the dipstick and start >driving around. But who does that?! It was, indeed, baloney. More likely the dipstick was removed for engine compartment space considerations... >>330xi states: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > It was, indeed, baloney. More likely the dipstick was removed for engine > compartment space considerations... huh? Mine only takes up about 1 square inch, unless you consider the space *inside* the engine. I'm thinking that may have been a design engineer's consideration. But seriously, the only real reason to go from a perfectly suitable dipstick to some electronic gizmo wizardry is the same as the reason BMW took perfectly operable heater controls and stuffed them into iDrive... <retro-grouch ranting> It's the *Gee-Wizz* factor. It's that, along with a wicked good stereo system, DVD video TV system, Never-Get-Lost-Navigate-me-home systems and other posh amenities that sell new cars to buyers these days. And I blame YOU! Yes, you... the new car buyers that vote with your feet and your checkbooks and buy all this ridiculous fru-fru shite. Not me, because I don't buy new cars, primarily on financial principle. Not because I couldn't, believe me I could (and sadly, have in the past). But I find it appalling the way these things lose their value in just a few days. If more people opted for the stripped down BMW models that have all of the bimmer goodness without the doo-dads the company might get the message and make cars right. But instead we will be subjected to endless electronic automotive masturbation. </retro-grouch ranting> -Fred W > I *would* dip my fuel tank before a 200 mile journey if the only indicator > on board was a low fuel level warning light. It helps to know how much [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > more info than a "low level warning". In that vein, an oil *gauge* would > be a fair replacement for the dipstick. That's exactly what there is under the 'Check Control' settings on the new cars... an incremented oil gauge, not just a 'low oil' light. well suppose that some one puts in to much oil - i have seen it many times when the idiot does not pay attention or know the spec of the car - does the sensor tell you that ? I would rather have the stick also >> I *would* dip my fuel tank before a 200 mile journey if the only >> indicator on board was a low fuel level warning light. It helps to know [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > That's exactly what there is under the 'Check Control' settings on the new > cars... an incremented oil gauge, not just a 'low oil' light. >well suppose that some one puts in to much oil - i have seen it many times >when the idiot does not pay attention or know the spec of the car - does the >sensor tell you that ? I would rather have the stick also If the dealer puts too much oil in, nothing breaks. Oil consumption may go up, fuel efficiency will drop if the crankshaft is hitting the oil. This situation is certainly not as destructive as running out: http://webpages.charter.net/dwarner2/NoOil.jpg I wonder how they could do a warning light or level sensor, since the oil level always chages between running, not running, and perhaps with engine speed. I guess a level meter might work if the computer has a map of level vs RPM. Still, If there was no dipstick, then I'd want an unlimited warranty for engine replacement if oil actually ran out and the sensor failed to detect it. BTW: is it possible that there really is a dipstick, but it's just hidden under the stupid plastic covers that seem to infest every engine bay these days? Whenever I lift the hood on a new car and see a big sheet of cheap planstic instead of an engine, I assume what's undereath is made by Briggs & Stratton, just like the plastic-covered lawn mowers in the local K-Mart. To reply, please remove one letter from each side of "@" Spammers are VERMIN. Please kill them all. > Whenever I lift the hood on a new car and see a big sheet of cheap > planstic instead of an engine, I assume what's undereath is made by > Briggs & Stratton, just like the plastic-covered lawn mowers in the > local K-Mart. Absolutely. At one time you'd expect a maker of fine engines to want to show them off at their best. Signature*Virtual reality is its own reward* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > >well suppose that some one puts in to much oil - i have seen it many times > >when the idiot does not pay attention or know the spec of the car - does the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > engine speed. I guess a level meter might work if the computer has a > map of level vs RPM. Everything is going map driven. The oil level sensor is a pair of electrodes in the pan that measure voltage between the pair. As the voltage drops, the oil level can be determined via map based interpolation. > Still, If there was no dipstick, then I'd want an unlimited warranty > for engine replacement if oil actually ran out and the sensor failed > to detect it. Please. BMW goes from a dumb sensor to a very smart one with sensor failure detection and you want the old one? > BTW: is it possible that there really is a dipstick. No, it's not. > but it's just > hidden under the stupid plastic covers that seem to infest every > engine bay these days? Perhaps a career change is in order to bring the unenlightened to their senses? > Whenever I lift the hood on a new car and see a big sheet of cheap > planstic instead of an engine, I assume what's undereath is made by > Briggs & Stratton, just like the plastic-covered lawn mowers in the > local K-Mart. I'll see you on the road in your F150. >> >well suppose that some one puts in to much oil - i have seen it many >> >times [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > voltage between the pair. As the voltage drops, the oil level can be > determined via map based interpolation. Correct, to a point. It's a capacitance measure, not resistance. Technology that's been in use on aircraft for fuel contents gauging since Britain pioneered turbojet passenger aircraft with the De-Havilland Comet. Badger. > > Everything is going map driven. > > The oil level sensor is a pair of electrodes in the pan that measure > > voltage between the pair. As the voltage drops, the oil level can be > > determined via map based interpolation. > Correct, to a point. It's a capacitance measure, not resistance. > Technology that's been in use on aircraft for fuel contents gauging > since Britain pioneered turbojet passenger aircraft with the > De-Havilland Comet. Nice one. ;-) Signature*If a turtle doesn't have a shell, is he homeless or naked? Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> > Everything is going map driven. >> > The oil level sensor is a pair of electrodes in the pan that measure [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Nice one. ;-) The other interesting point is that if they fit one in 2 opposite corners and calibrate the plate areas correctly, the gauge/indicator will always read true regardless of attitude. Again, this is why aircraft fuel gauges don't vary with changes in attitude. Modern senders use 2 concentric tubes as the capacitance plates, the tubes being shaped to vary the distance between then according to the shape of the tanks at that point, to ensure a true and accurate reading. Incorporated within the tubes are thermistors that give either a "wet" or "dry" reading, to control the likes of low level warnings and fill shut-off valves. The technology ain't new, if I can suss out the character map I'll post the formula for working out the capacitance, which demonstrates the plate gaps/areas theory nicely. Badger. > , if I can suss > out the character map I'll post the formula for working out the > capacitance, which demonstrates the plate gaps/areas theory nicely. > Badger. Couldn't suss out character map in outlook express, so here goes anyway! C = Uo Ur A --------- d C = (capacitance, farads) Uo = relative permeability of air Ur = relative permeability of any other substance between plates A = cross-sectional area of plates d = distance between plates
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