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Car Forum / BMW Cars / September 2005Brake rotors - life expectancy
Hi all, Okay, I'm relatively new to BMW ownership but over the 3 or 4 months I've been listening in on this group I have read a number of posts concerning brake discs (rotors not pads) wearing out in 50/60k miles. Is this typical, or am I picking up on something that might not really be the norm? I'm talking BMW models generally, of course. To put this in perspective, my daily use vehicle is a 1996 LR Discovery which has 150k+ miles on the clock and which I've owned from new. The rear rotors are the originals and the fronts have been replaced once (under warranty) due to hairline cracking. This vehicle spends quite a bit of it's time off-tarmac - typically 15 miles per day, 3 or 4 days a week - because of my job and the brakes are, therefore, subjected to much more abuse than a normal road car. During an off-tarmac foray the brakes are often covered/submerged in muddy gloop but despite this even the pads last 45/50k. I understand that compared to the Discovery (even with it's 3.9litre V8 engine) just about any BMW is a "performance" car but the LR is over 2 tonnes so stopping from almost any speed in a hurry needs considerable braking power. I'd appreciate any comments from the members of this group on this subject.  SignatureRegards Steve G 1992 730i > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > I'd appreciate any comments from the members of this group on this > subject. ???? You are saying that rotors must be replaced with each brake job, but clearly most of us can go at least two brake jobs before changing rotors. Obviously, the life of a rotor is dependent upon on how hard one goes around mashing on the pedals, but careful and reasonable drivers can easily get upwards of two pad changes out of a rotor. >> Hi all, >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> I'd appreciate any comments from the members of this group on this >> subject. > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > this typical, or am I picking up on something that might not really be > the norm? I'm talking BMW models generally, of course. Yes, this is somewhat typical, but of course depends on one's driving habits and how you use your brakes. General rule of thumb is that > To put this in perspective, my daily use vehicle is a 1996 LR Discovery > which has 150k+ miles on the clock and which I've owned from new. The [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > I'd appreciate any comments from the members of this group on this subject. The performance design of the BMW brakes is such that the rotors wear out rather quickly. You could put some harder aftermarket rotors and softer aftermarket pads, but then you would probably not get the same braking performance. By the way, rotors are cheap (~$75 US per corner) and easy to replace, especially if taken on at the same time as the pads. Signature-Fred W Toys for sale, Hey get your toys here: <http://users.adelphia.net/~fredwills/> > Okay, I'm relatively new to BMW ownership but over the 3 or 4 months > I've been listening in on this group I have read a number of posts > concerning brake discs (rotors not pads) wearing out in 50/60k miles. Is > this typical, or am I picking up on something that might not really be > the norm? I'm talking BMW models generally, of course. 50/60k sounds about right. But they only cost about 20-50 GBP a set depending on model and are easy to change. Unless you have the local $tealer fit them of course...... SignatureWho needs a life when you've got Unix? :-) Email: john@unixnerd.demon.co.uk, John G.Burns B.Eng, Bonny Scotland Web : http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk - The Ultimate BMW Homepage! Need Sun or HP Unix kit? http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/unix.html > Okay, I'm relatively new to BMW ownership but over the 3 or 4 months > I've been listening in on this group I have read a number of posts > concerning brake discs (rotors not pads) wearing out in 50/60k miles. Is > this typical, or am I picking up on something that might not really be > the norm? I'm talking BMW models generally, of course. Yes - the fronts are likely to only last for two sets of pads. However, OEM discs from Eurocarparts are pretty cheap and an easy DIY fit. Since they have wheel bolts rather than studs, and the disc goes on the outside of the hub, they don't seize in place. So an easy half day's work to replace the lot - front and back. Signature*Half the people in the world are below average. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > In article <FDhTe.103440$G8.82070@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, > > So an easy half day's work to replace the lot - front and back. If you include 3 hours of 'Miller time' after the actual 1 hour job ... -- C.R. Krieger (BT, DT) "C.R. Krieger" <88.535is@gmail.com> wrote >> In article <FDhTe.103440$G8.82070@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, >> >> So an easy half day's work to replace the lot - front and back. > > If you include 3 hours of 'Miller time' after the actual 1 hour job ... Well, Dave's in the UK so it might be Bass's Ale or a local pub brew... rather than piss Miller (or Bud/whatever). Floyd > > Dave Plowman (News) wrote: > >> In article <FDhTe.103440$G8.82070@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Well, Dave's in the UK so it might be Bass's Ale or a local pub brew... > rather than piss Miller (or Bud/whatever). It's a euphemism. We *use* Warsteiner or Sprecher or some other reputable brew if the opportunity presents. OTOH, Miller *was* Bobby Rahal's sponsor and they're a 'hometown' (Milwaukee) operation, so I gotta give 'em some credit for that once in awhile - at least if there's nothing good on tap. *BUD*? Pffft! That's Earnhardt piss! -- C.R. (Who hardly ever even quaffs a beer.) > > So an easy half day's work to replace the lot - front and back. > If you include 3 hours of 'Miller time' after the actual 1 hour job ... ;-) I haven't got the 6 car fully equipped garage/workshop you guys seem to have. So include the time taken to get the jacks from the cellar to the road, and tidy up afterwards. Another smiley. ;-) Signature*Dancing is a perpendicular expression of a horizontal desire * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > > > So an easy half day's work to replace the lot - front and back. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > have. So include the time taken to get the jacks from the cellar to the > road, and tidy up afterwards. How 'bout a floor jack and some fairly level (and firm!) gravel in the driveway? That's what I use. -- C.R. (Who hardly ever even quaffs a beer.) > > > > So an easy half day's work to replace the lot - front and back. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > have. So include the time taken to get the jacks from the cellar to the > > road, and tidy up afterwards. > How 'bout a floor jack and some fairly level (and firm!) gravel in the > driveway? That's what I use. So you can replace discs and pads front and back and adjust the handbrake properly in one hour? Respect. ;-) Signature*Warning: Dates in Calendar are closer than they appear. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > > > > > So an easy half day's work to replace the lot - front and back. > > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > So you can replace discs and pads front and back and adjust the handbrake > properly in one hour? Well, lessee: twenty minutes or less up front and about twenty minutes per side in the rear. Yup. Pretty close. -- C.R. (Quicksilver Fingers) > Dave Plowman (News) wrote: >> So you can replace discs and pads front and back and adjust the handbrake >> properly in one hour? > > Well, lessee: twenty minutes or less up front and about twenty minutes > per side in the rear. Yup. Pretty close. You forgot to add in the two hour Miller time... Floyd > > So you can replace discs and pads front and back and adjust the > > handbrake properly in one hour? > Well, lessee: twenty minutes or less up front and about twenty minutes > per side in the rear. Yup. Pretty close. Respect, dude. Signature*Black holes are where God divided by zero * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> Okay, I'm relatively new to BMW ownership but over the 3 or 4 months >> I've been listening in on this group I have read a number of posts [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > outside of the hub, they don't seize in place. So an easy half day's work > to replace the lot - front and back. CLARIFICATION It's an easy half-day, not a half day, easy. The hard part is setting the car on jack stands and taking the tires off. > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > I'd appreciate any comments from the members of this group on this subject. I would be amazed if I got that kind of life out of my iX's rotors lol. I replace them approximately every 35 to 40k miles. I once had a Grand Am company car, I burnt those rotors up in 25k. -Russ. > To put this in perspective, my daily use vehicle is a 1996 LR Discovery > which has 150k+ miles on the clock and which I've owned from new. The [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > brakes are often covered/submerged in muddy gloop but despite this even > the pads last 45/50k. Maybe, but off road driving requires gentle use of the brakes? Signature*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >>To put this in perspective, my daily use vehicle is a 1996 LR Discovery >>which has 150k+ miles on the clock and which I've owned from new. The [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Maybe, but off road driving requires gentle use of the brakes? Oh yes, absolutely ... very gentle and judicious use of the brakes when in the soft stuff. It's not the actual use of the brakes when off-tarmac (note I don't say off-road because all of the tracks I drive are technically roads) but the abrasive nature of the clagg that envelopes the brakes whilst driving along. This acts like a very wet grinding paste ... SignatureRegards Steve G >>> To put this in perspective, my daily use vehicle is a 1996 LR >>> Discovery which has 150k+ miles on the clock and which I've owned [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > the brakes whilst driving along. This acts like a very wet grinding > paste ... I doubt that muddy paste is any more abrasive than the semi-metallic compounds they use in modern brake pads. Probably less so by a good margin. Sometimes it just isn't all that intuitive... ;-) Signature-Fred W Toys for sale, Hey get your toys here: <http://users.adelphia.net/~fredwills/> As a general rule of thumb, rotors will last through two sets of pads. Your mileage may vary. > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > I'd appreciate any comments from the members of this group on this > subject. There is no spec given for this. There are minimum dimensions that must be observed, and the M3 (E36) rotors have a specific admonition against turning the rotors -- because the M3 has the specific admonition and the other models do not, it seems to me that it might be appropriate is some cases to turn rotors on the other E36 models beside the M3, but one must remain with a minimum thickness that exceeds the number stamped on the rotor. So, turning a rotor might be okay IF the result is a rotor that is thicker than the min. specification -- as a practical matter, I don't see how a rotor can be turned AND retain a thickness that is greater than the minumum. The life of the brake pads is a matter of driving habits/environment, and the life of the rotors is a matter of the life of the pads. Again, as a practical matter, most rotors will last through two sets of brakes. Rear pads will last through two sets of front pads, so rear rotors need to be replaced every fourth brake job, and front rotors need to be replaced every other brake job. Obviously, your mileage may vary, but as a general guideline, I think these numbers should work out pretty well. > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > I'd appreciate any comments from the members of this group on this > subject. I'd like to say a big thanks to everyone that responded to my original post. I'm still a little amazed that BMW use rotor materials that wear out so quickly and (even more amazingly) that owners appear to accept that. Guess I'm just going to have to come to terms with it as a consequence of driving an otherwise wonderful car ... or just brake less :-) SignatureRegards Steve G > I'd like to say a big thanks to everyone that responded to my original > post. I'm still a little amazed that BMW use rotor materials that wear > out so quickly and (even more amazingly) that owners appear to accept that. > > Guess I'm just going to have to come to terms with it as a consequence > of driving an otherwise wonderful car ... or just brake less :-) I think you missed the point Steve. It is not a design flaw (bad thing) that the rotors wear relatively fast. It is a fact of life if you want good brakes. Cars with brake rotors that last over 100k miles also can't brake worth a damn. Signature-Fred W Toys for sale, Hey get your toys here: <http://users.adelphia.net/~fredwills/> >> I'd like to say a big thanks to everyone that responded to my original >> post. I'm still a little amazed that BMW use rotor materials that wear [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > good brakes. Cars with brake rotors that last over 100k miles also > can't brake worth a damn. It's not that I think this is a design fault - believe me I know all about them, I own a Land Rover - just an outdated way of looking at things. I also don't think it's a fact of life either, not these days anyway. I feel a bit of empirical experimentation coming on tomorrow. Let's see just how much better the 730 can stop compared to the Disco, remembering that the Landie is considerably heavier than the Bimmer. Maybe I'll see if my son will lend me his Focus too - that's nice and light. Watch this space ... SignatureRegards Steve G >>> I'd like to say a big thanks to everyone that responded to my original >>> post. I'm still a little amazed that BMW use rotor materials that wear [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Watch this space ... Not only are you comparing apples and oranges, you're throwing bananas into the basket as well. If you are going to select or reject a car because of how often the brake rotors have to be replaced, I'll not be watching this space. >>>>I'd like to say a big thanks to everyone that responded to my original >>>>post. I'm still a little amazed that BMW use rotor materials that wear [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > how often the brake rotors have to be replaced, I'll not be watching this > space. I appreciate that it's not a perfect test but the comment was made that cars with rotors that last 100K miles can't brake worth a damn. I would never reject a car simply on the basis that something like the brake rotors (a wearing part) have to be replaced more often that I think they should be - I never suggested that at all - I'm just curious to see their respective braking abilities at first hand. Whether you'll be watching this space or not won't have any influence on whether I carry out the experiment, or not, either. But I bet someone will :-)) SignatureRegards Steve G >>>>> I'd like to say a big thanks to everyone that responded to my >>>>> original post. I'm still a little amazed that BMW use rotor [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > whether I carry out the experiment, or not, either. But I bet someone > will :-)) You'd need to compare two cars with the same size (diameter) rotors and wheels, one with hard rotors and one (BMW) with the softer variety. I'm guessing the big Land Rover would have larger discs, no? I'll be interested to hear how fast you can haul down the 2 cars from the same speed, even with their obvious differences. If you can't stop your BMW faster than a Land Rover, there's something seriously wrong. Signature-Fred W Toys for sale, Hey get your toys here: <http://users.adelphia.net/~fredwills/> > I'd like to say a big thanks to everyone that responded to my original > post. I'm still a little amazed that BMW use rotor materials that wear out > so quickly and (even more amazingly) that owners appear to accept that. > > Guess I'm just going to have to come to terms with it as a consequence of > driving an otherwise wonderful car ... or just brake less :-) They don't wear out quickly. I didn't put rotors on my E36 until it hit about 150,000 miles, and when it got slammed at 215,000, the brakes were going strong. But, I drive 40 miles to work on a mostly wide open freeway and seldom need the brakes, and when I see others slamming the brakes on in front of me, I lift off the gas and lightly apply my brakes and avoid the need to apply them with the gusto needed by many of those around me. If people drive the way I drive, it is reasonable that the rotors would last 3 or 4 pad changes, but it is reasonable that the rotors last 2 changes before you even have to look at them. Yes, there are times that rotors need to be replaced with each pad-change, but this should be the exception rather than the rule, and indicates aggressive driving -- aggressive stopping to be precise. If the shop is telling you that you have the rotors replaced, ask for the numbers. If you wear the brakes down to the backing plate and damage the rotors, expect to replace the rotors. But if you have the pads replaced before they get to the backing plates, then there is no reason the new pads can simply jump right on the car. If the old pads made small ridges, then it is common that the ridges can be removed when the pads are changed the first time, then the rotors should be replaced the next time pads are changed. Removing these ridges is called "turning the rotors," depending on how deep the ridges are, the rotors might not be able to be turned. I think the common position around here is that the rotors can never be turned, but I am not certain this is true all of the time; it matters on how much material needs to be removed to make the rotors flat again. I think the idea is that if so little material needs to be removed to make the rotors flat, then there's no point in turning them, and if they are worn so badly that they need to be turned, then they are beyond hope. I suppose that if this is the way these guys look at this, then it is true, you do not turn BMW rotors. When I replaced my rotors (front only) they had small ridges that I wanted to clean up, but when they were cleaned there wasn't enough material left. With 150k on the car, I thought I was doing pretty well, so I bought new rotors and went home and installed them. Rotors are cheap these days, BMW rotors run to about $50 per corner, and give superior braking performance. >>I'd like to say a big thanks to everyone that responded to my original >>post. I'm still a little amazed that BMW use rotor materials that wear out [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > Rotors are cheap these days, BMW rotors run to about $50 per corner, and > give superior braking performance. Jeff, I don't have an argument with you here. It looks like we have similar driving styles and you get the sort of lifetime from your rotors that I would expect - but you're the first person in this thread to suggest they can get 150k miles from a set. The cost is not really an issue as far as I'm concerned on safety critical parts ... if it needs replacing then it needs replacing :-) Keep driving safely. SignatureRegards Steve G >>>I'd like to say a big thanks to everyone that responded to my original >>>post. I'm still a little amazed that BMW use rotor materials that wear [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > that I would expect - but you're the first person in this thread to > suggest they can get 150k miles from a set. Let me clarify that particular point, 150k miles. I bought the car used with 105 already on it. What I do know is that it went from 150 to 215, 65k, and I was not even thinking of doing brake work, at least not work that included rotors. I think it is reasonable to suggest that rotors will last through two sets of pads, but careful drivers can get three sets of pads past a set of rotors if they try. I don't think it is right to suggest that one will get this sort of wear, because if they don't they they think something is wrong. One should plan on two sets of pads for a set of rotors, then be thrilled if he can get three sets of pads per set of rotors. > The cost is not really an issue as far as I'm concerned on safety critical > parts ... if it needs replacing then it needs replacing :-) > > Keep driving safely. >>>>I'd like to say a big thanks to everyone that responded to my original >>>>post. I'm still a little amazed that BMW use rotor materials that wear [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > should plan on two sets of pads for a set of rotors, then be thrilled if he > can get three sets of pads per set of rotors. Completely understood and agreed :-) SignatureRegards Steve G > I'd like to say a big thanks to everyone that responded to my original > post. I'm still a little amazed that BMW use rotor materials that wear > out so quickly and (even more amazingly) that owners appear to accept that. > > Guess I'm just going to have to come to terms with it as a consequence > of driving an otherwise wonderful car ... or just brake less :-) I guess in the grand scheme of things, it's not that big a deal to replace your brakes every couple years instead of every 5 years. (or whatever the numbers work out to for various people in various cars). I certainly wouldn't give up any driving pleasure for longer-lived brakes. -Russ. >>I'd like to say a big thanks to everyone that responded to my original >>post. I'm still a little amazed that BMW use rotor materials that wear [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > -Russ. Couldn't agree more, Russ. With the mileage my Bimmer is likely to do it'll be 10 years before I change mine :-) SignatureRegards Steve G |
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