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Car Forum / BMW Cars / December 2005need advice on snow tires
My wife just got an '02 525 wagon. I assume she'll need snow tires for the ~5 times that we get enough snow to make side streets slippery. My question is, does she need 4 snow tires, or would 2 on the rear wheels be sufficient? Also, any recommendation for a brand of tires for occaisonal snow, but mostly dry-road conditions? Tia, Mike > My wife just got an '02 525 wagon. I assume she'll need snow tires > for the ~5 times that we get enough snow to make side streets slippery. > My > question is, does she need 4 snow tires, or would 2 on the rear wheels > be > sufficient? The car's handling will be more predictable having all 4 tires the same. As it is, winter driving can be tricky. Do you really want the additional 'excitement' of having the front of the car behave much differently from the back? > Also, any recommendation for a brand of tires for occaisonal snow, > but mostly dry-road conditions? Nokian WR. Dunlop M3. Cheers, Pete >> My wife just got an '02 525 wagon. I assume she'll need snow tires >> for the ~5 times that we get enough snow to make side streets slippery. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 'excitement' of having the front of the car behave much differently from > the back? Plus your wife will need the front traction to both steer and stop! Definitely get 4 winter tires, preferably mounted on cheaper wheels to both save your good wheels and to make the twice a year changeover that much easier. >> Also, any recommendation for a brand of tires for occaisonal snow, >> but mostly dry-road conditions? > > Nokian WR. Dunlop M3. I just mounted the Dunlop M3 (V rated) tires on my 328i - very good handling in both dry and wet conditions (no snow yet!), although they are a bit noisy above 50 mph on certain road surfaces. You might check out www.tirerack.com for a great deal of helpful info. Tom > My wife just got an '02 525 wagon. I assume she'll need snow tires > for the ~5 times that we get enough snow to make side streets slippery. > My question is, does she need 4 snow tires, or would 2 on the rear wheels > be sufficient? You need four. It's nice to be able to stop as well as start :-) > Also, any recommendation for a brand of tires for occaisonal snow, > but mostly dry-road conditions? Goodyear ultragrip if you don't see heavy snow all the time. They're also great in heavy rain and don't screw up the dry road handling too much. I've tried a few brands and like these the most. For really heavy duty snow use I'm told Bridgestone Blizzaks are best, but I'm also told they handle badly in normal conditions.  SignatureWho needs a life when you've got Unix? :-) Email: john@unixnerd.demon.co.uk, John G.Burns B.Eng, Bonny Scotland Web : http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk - The Ultimate BMW Homepage! Need Sun or HP Unix kit? http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/unix.html www.Strathspey.co.uk - Quality Binoculars at a Sensible price >> My wife just got an '02 525 wagon. I assume she'll need snow tires >>for the ~5 times that we get enough snow to make side streets slippery. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > For really heavy duty snow use I'm told Bridgestone Blizzaks are best, > but I'm also told they handle badly in normal conditions. I have Blizzaks on a FWD car (SAAB) and they do not seem too bad in the dry. I have Michelin Arctic Alpins on my 325i and those work well in the slop and handle well in the dry too, but would be overkill for only 4-5 times snowfall a year. I also just put Michelin X-Ice on a different SAAB and those seem as good as the Alpins. Signature-Fred W > My wife just got an '02 525 wagon. I assume she'll need snow tires > for the ~5 times that we get enough snow to make side streets slippery. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Mike All 4 - and it's good if they are on dedicated wheels.. I'm running 17" stock wheels in the summer with 245/40/17's on them (Dunlops) and 15" wheels and snows in the winter (forget the exact size, but probably 225/60/15's) - the narrower higher tire is better in the snow - less of a wedge is created in front of it in loose snow. If you go to someplace like www.tirerack.com - you'll get some recommendations. My 525i with 4 snows will outperform SUV's with "all-season" tires in most any condition. I have had good luck in the past with Pirelli P210 "SportSnow" and am currently running Yokohama's. admin-- seriously... dont make claims that are total bs. sorry but your 525 with 4 snow tires is not going to outperform any suv except maybe an escalade with dubs and slicks. Even if you claimed an IX you would be hard pressed to outperform much. rwd is never going to be anywhere close to parttime 4wd, let alone full time (like Land Rover and Cruisers). Sorry but that was the biggest load of crap Ive heard in a while. As to tires, most any winter tire will perform about the same, just get them siped and if your snow is bad you may want to consider studs. Also, adding a few bags of salt or pea gravel to the back of the car wont hurt. Best bet is just to assume that the bimmer is the sled that it is and dont drive it when there is snow on the roads. Its usually only a matter of a few hours before the side streets are cleared. (at least here in Utah) > admin-- seriously... dont make claims that are total bs. sorry but > your 525 with 4 snow tires is not going to outperform any suv except > maybe an escalade with dubs and slicks. Corey, there's a lot of bs in your posting, too. Let me just enumerate. > Even if you claimed an IX you would be hard pressed to outperform much. > rwd is never going to be anywhere close to parttime 4wd, let alone full > time (like Land Rover and Cruisers). Sorry but that was the biggest > load of crap Ive heard in a while. 1st, any car with snowtires will CORNER and BRAKE better than anything with all-seasons. Since a RWD with snows will accelerate about as well as an awd/4wd car with all-seasons, it's quite obvious that his assertion is correct, which means that your paragraph above is bs. > As to tires, most any winter tire will perform about the same, just get > them siped and if your snow is bad you may want to consider studs. > Also, adding a few bags of salt or pea gravel to the back of the car > wont hurt. 2nd bs paragraph. Any "good" snow tire will already have sipes. If it doesn't, it's arguably not a snow tire. Snow tires constructed with cold-weather compounds perform better than those with normal compounds. Tires such as Blizzaks perform as well as studded snow tires - if you don't believe me look at http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/winter/studtire/Studded_Tire_Report_Final_Nov_2002.pdf. > Best bet is just to assume that the bimmer is the sled that it is and > dont drive it when there is snow on the roads. Its usually only a > matter of a few hours before the side streets are cleared. > (at least here in Utah) Only non-bs paragraph. Floyd, floyd, Listen to yourself, we are talking about driving in snow, a rwd will not outperform awd or 4wd, even if it has spikes on the tires!! There is no pull, only push. think about this!! regardless of how well the tire bites, it still is only capable of pushing the car, not grabbing up front to turn the vehicle. Its really pretty simple. Second.. If you want to believe the studded tire report, thats fine, but its "BS" a you put it, anything less than studs on ice (which is what packed snow will become) will slip all over, I dont care if it has a Jesus Juice anti slip compound sprayed on it. GRL-- you are high as well, see my comments above, your 50/50 balance may be a good arguement if you were talking about 4wd, but the closest bmw has come to 50/50 is the MCoupe which is not 4wd so the 50/50 doesnt matter in the snow. And ground clearance shouldnt have a thing to do with it, if your Lexus has trouble when the snow is above the ground clearance level than you must have a pretty poor SUV. I can blast through snow that goes over tire height in my rovers. (but if I stop Im screwed.) Not trying to start a flame war here.. I love my bimmers as much as the next guy but comparing BMW handling to any decent SUV in snow is just ludicrous... Dont pretend the bimmer is something it isnt, thats what has spawn all of these 2wd "SUVs" that are "speedy". An SUV isnt a sports car and vice versa... you may get by in the snow but you wont out perform any real (AWD or 4WD) suv. Its called reality. "Corey Shuman" <cshuman@gmail.com> wrote > Floyd, floyd, > Listen to yourself, we are talking about driving in snow, a rwd will > not outperform awd or 4wd, even if it has spikes on the tires!! You are wrong. Any vehicle - rwd, fwd, awd - that has snow tires (real snow tires like Blizzaks, or studded, etc.) will out-perform any vehicle with only all-season tires. It may not climb hills or accelerate as well, but in every other category of vehicle performance, it will beat the all-season-shod vehicle. FloydR >"Corey Shuman" <cshuman@gmail.com> wrote >> Floyd, floyd, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >FloydR I don't know about the rest of you, but the only thing I'm interested in when it snows is staying warm and getting from A to B in one piece! Save performance for the summer! I'd rather get up/down the slopes and round the corners in one piece! Not to mention if it does go all horribly wrong, I know which I'd rather go hitting lamp posts and other car drivers (ones doing performance test probably) in... A saloon car or a Land Rover... Hmmm.... Landy Please! Oh, and the Landy will get itself out of a ditch nicely too. Yet to see a winch on a Beemer!... Or a night heater come to think of it...! Dodgy. SignatureMUSHROOMS ARE THE OPIATE OF THE MOOSES "Dodgy" <Dodgy@earth.planet.universe> wrote > I don't know about the rest of you, but the only thing I'm interested > in when it snows is staying warm and getting from A to B in one piece! Actually, I drive an AWD 330xi with Michelin Pilot Alpine snow tires (it has Pilot MXM on it during the summer). I run rings around my wife's Highlander AWD with all-seasons, and for that matter around my 4x4 Toyota pickup with all-seasons. FloydR Did you put your toyota in 4wd before attempting your test, memory serves that without locking in, the toyota runs in rwd unless locked in... As to the rest your making my point for me... AWD will outperform rwd (your toyota)... > Did you put your toyota in 4wd before attempting your test, memory > serves that without locking in, the toyota runs in rwd unless locked > in... > As to the rest your making my point for me... AWD will outperform rwd > (your toyota)... Actually - and you seem to have reading comprehension problems since you don't know that and I included it in my post specifically - the Highlander is AWD (just like my 330xi). The truck (a T100 SR5) is a 4x4 with auto- locking hubs, no need to stop and get out. My car doesn't slip at all going up our drive in Cle Elum (as long as it's not so deep to high-center), but neither the Highlander or T100 get up (in the same conditions) without slipping and spinning. They also won't go where they're pointed, won't stop at the bottom of the drive, won't go around corners without slipping or slewing that my 330xi does easily, etc., etc. Let me assure you: snow tires are AT LEAST as much better than all-season tires in the snow as high-end summer tires (like Pilot PS2, Goodyear F1 GS-D3) are better on roads than all-seasons. Let me remind you of a couple of well-known saws: 1) the best performance upgrade is driver-training; 2) the 2nd best is better tires. FloydR Floyd- dont get testy, remeber, my main point was that an AWD or 4wd (usually SUV) will outperform a rear wheel drive. None of your vehicles listed are rear wheel drive. That said your assertion of tires is completely true, snow tires on an AWD will out perform "all seasons" on an AWD. This was never an issue. Look at the beginning-- "an 02 525 wagon...". (Oh, and I think most 4wds allow for the hubs to be locked from inside... ;), but if you have a decent 4wd you will be able to lock your center diff and split power between your front and rear... most toyota transfer cases (Exception made for Cruisers)act similar to AWD and you can end up with one wheel getting all power) The issue was put forth that a rwd with snow tires would outperform a SUV (presumably with AWD or 4WD) with all seasons. Which is where I had issue. I agree that 90% of what a vehicle does is from the driver, thats not really an upgrade though. No one told Mike to have his wife go take driving lessons. She is making do with what she has at hand. Which is the core of my arguement. Your bimmer isnt a snow machine and your SUV isnt a track racer. Comparing the two is retarded... (no matter what tires you put on it.) "Corey Shuman" <cshuman@gmail.com> wrote > (Oh, and I think most 4wds allow for the hubs to be locked from > inside... ;), Actually, most don't. Even many Toyotas don't. > The issue was put forth that a rwd with snow tires would outperform a > SUV (presumably with AWD or 4WD) with all seasons. Which is where I had > issue. And you are still wrong. "Perform" when related to automobiles doesn't mean just acceleration. Cornering and braking are just as important, and as I have said before - as have others - a snow-tire equipped car will outperform an all-season equipped one in at least those two areas. Know what the difference that 4wd makes? It just means that you get stuck DEEPER in the woods. But without snow tires, an suv with awd/4wd won't even get to the woods. FloydR you tell 'em Floyd Most SUV's are also just ill handling, front heavy FWD vehicles until there is wheel slip and then the other wheels try to help regain traction. I'll take snows any day and continue to laugh at all the SUV's stuck in the ditch as i drive by because they completely loose control when they try to stop. Last weeks black ice morning i saw 13 on my way to work and alot more tracks heading up the curb and into the ditch. total agreement as always, Floyd 330xi@canada.com >> (Oh, and I think most 4wds allow for the hubs to be locked from >> inside... ;), [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > FloydR >you tell 'em Floyd > >Most SUV's are also just ill handling, front heavy FWD vehicles until there >is wheel >slip and then the other wheels try to help regain traction. Nonsense. A few cars-based SUV's are like that, but most SUV's are primarily rear-drive truck-based machines. > Floyd- dont get testy, remeber, my main point was that an AWD or 4wd > (usually SUV) will outperform a rear wheel drive. None of your vehicles [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Comparing the two is retarded... > (no matter what tires you put on it.) Jumping in here... you continue to flagrantly ignore the original point. That point being that *any* vehicle with dedicated winter tires on it is better than *any* vehicle with all-season (or worse summer) tires on it regardless of drive configuration (FWD, RWD, AWD, 4WD). The reason that this is true is because when you are driving in the snow, you don't just need to move the vehicle forward, but more importantly need to keep the damn thing on the road (steering) and also not slide into the car in front of you when trying to stop (braking). Getting it to move forward is actually the smallest of these 3 concerns. So, we get back to the original question... what is better (safer) in the snow? A RWD car with the appropriate winter tires or an AWD/4WD with all-season tires. In (at least) two out of three performance categories (steering and braking) the winter tires make the difference. This is the reason that you see an inordinate number of SUVs in the ditch or against the guard-rail in bad weather. They go like crazy with those all-season tires, they just don't steer or stop quite so well. And before you start telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about, let me say that I live in New Hampshire, where we get plenty of opportunities to drive in snow. I own a RWD BMW (325i), 2 FWD SAAB 900s (daughters' cars), an Explorer AWD and a Jeep Wrangler 4WD. The BMW and SAABs have real winter tires, the Explorer has all-seasons, and the Jeep has aggressive mud-terrain tires (actually just sold it). The Jeep and Explorer are the best at getting going when it's slippery out, but hands down any of the cars (with snows) are better at steering and stopping than either the Jeep or Exploder. Actually I own 2 other RWD BMWs (540i and Z3) but I do not fit them with winter tires, so they do not venture out into the sloppy stuff. Signature-Fred W OK, no flame war, but read what I said. The man will have no problems in all but extreme conditions with a 5-Series shod with snow tires and equipped with snow tires. For Pete's sake, remember that before the FWD revolution that went through Detroit, virtually all U.S. cars (and many Europeans) were RWD, nose heavy and w/o traction control and people still managed to make it through the winter. Heck, I had a nose-heavy '73 Mercury Capri 2600 that I drove on worn all-seasons through Chicago winters for years with little trouble. This vast superiority of an SUV is utter nonsense that people have proven for decades. Cut the crap, man. And face it, the snow gets up to bumper level on your SUV, you are not going anywhere 4WD or no 4WD. You plow enough snow in front of you and it WILL stop you. Granted, this will happen with a 5-Series a lot faster than with an SUV. Finally, most BMW's have near 50/50 weight distribution. It's something BMW designs for. Another reason for the titanium in the new in-line six. Keeps the nose light and the handling exceptional. > Floyd, floyd, You mistakenly imagine that only traction matters when driving on snow. How about cornering and stopping? Modern cars with traction control and snow tyres have amazing traction in snow, more than adequate for all conditions except when snow is deeper than groundclearance. There small disadvantage in these conditions is vastly outweighed by their greatly superior cornering and handling in most snow and ice conditions. Now you are slicing the baloney. A good set of snow tires on a rwd car with traction control, near 50/50 balance and decent ground clearance for the amount of snow on the ground will do very well on snow. My wife has been driving an LS400 through twelve mid-Michigan winters on all-seasons and she has only had trouble when the snow got above the car's ground clearance. same thing will happen with an SUV, except the SUB will have more ground clearance. I put snow tires on the car last winter and it became even better than a fresh set of all-seasons (naturally). Buy good snow tires that are no wider than they need to be and you will not have trouble with your 5-series with traction control through moderate snow falls. - nopcbs > admin-- seriously... dont make claims that are total bs. sorry but > your 525 with 4 snow tires is not going to outperform any suv except [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > matter of a few hours before the side streets are cleared. > (at least here in Utah) > admin-- seriously... dont make claims that are total bs. sorry but > your 525 with 4 snow tires is not going to outperform any suv except > maybe an escalade with dubs and slicks. admin is quite right. I'd far rather drive a decent handling two wheel car fitted with snow tyres than a SUV in most winter conditions except very deep snow. On icy roads, or ploughed snowed roads, or even lightly snowed roads, the better handling and brakes of a car on snow tyres are far more advantageous than a lumbering, rolling, heavy SUV. I live in the French alps and drive a Mercedes C-Class on Michelin snow tyres and it is far more wieldy than SUVs. With the traction control, I have never got stuck once and have very rarely had to use chains. On the other hand, I have passed any number of SUVs in the ditch fitted with either no snow tyres (usually Dutch or UK plated) or "all season tyres", because they have fallen off the corner because of the weight and high centre of gravity of their vehicle. A SUV fitted with winter tyres does have better ultimate traction in deep snow than a car - but that is the only time four wheel drive is an advantage. For me, that is greatly outweighed by all the disadvantages of a SUV in other conditions. In any case, most SUV drivers seem to get lulled into a false sense of security and don't fit winter tyres... Ric- I'll agree with part of your arguement, for the most part SUV drivers are lulled int a false sense of security, and they dont really know how to drive what they have. All I would ask is this.. have you tried a real SUV, ie a Range Rover, Discovery, Grand Cherokee, Mercedes G-Class, Land Cruiser, etc.. with all seasons in the snow. I think for the most part the answer is no, or you would see what my arguement is... De-lurker for the moment - If you put the clowns usually driving SUVs (I laugh at them in the ditch as I drive up over the passes just east of Seattle in my plain Jane primitive 4 wheel drive Jeep Cherokee), it's laughable to think that a rear wheel drive vehicle with snow tires will out perform a 4 wheel drive vehicle in the snow. I used to have an Audi quattro and it would give my Jeep a run for its money no doubt - that is until the snow really piled up and the Audi got high centered. Now, I have and love an '05 330Ci. But when the white stuff falls and the idiots in Seattle start slipping around or I'm off to the mountains to go skiing, it's time for fire up the Jeep and leave the bimmer at home. my 2 cents worth - Jon > Ric- I'll agree with part of your arguement, for the most part SUV > drivers are lulled int a false sense of security, and they dont really [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > all seasons in the snow. I think for the most part the answer is no, or > you would see what my arguement is... > admin-- seriously... dont make claims that are total bs. Corey - might I offer that you do the same? I *have* gone up hills passing SUV's with all-season tires. I have stopped my 5-touring when SUV's were sliding around on their roofs. BTDT - and if you can't out-drive a FWD in ANY weahter with a good RWD you just don't know how to drive. I learned how to drive on RWD about 40 years ago, haven't driven anything else except a few rare brain-farts when I got a FWD (never lasted long - the first time they did a 360 on me in snow was the last time..) I'll repeat it - a good RWD (a BMW with ASC for instance) with good SNOW tires - will outhandle an SUV with all-seasons in snow. Also on ice and in the rain. okay, whatever, just dont try and flag me down to pull you out of a snow bank when you slide off the road with you GOOD snow tires.. its just a ridiculous arguement. All this thread is showing is who has actually driven a 4wd and who hasnt.. note-- I never said anything about front wheel drive. I mentioned ALL WHEEL DRIVE (AWD) and FOUR WHEEL DRIVE (4wd) both of which will out perform your snow tires every day, Like I said at the top, unless you are driving a escalade on "dubs" with slicks on them. Im not sure that you guys have a whole lot of experience driving in snow or you would concede what Im talking about, you going up hill is about momentum or condition, your stopping is about condition as well, you have to have a surface that will provide friction to stop, any compound of tires and ice will not produce a stop. -as a side note, Im curious as to how you get a fwd to spin a 360 without serious effort-- the physics are totally against it, maybe you were mistakenly driving a rwd, which will easily spin a 360 because it is "pushing" instead of "pulling" (like I state above) Im not trying to trash on the bimmers ability here, I love brand and if the roads are wet or dry I would rather drive them. But if you are on ice and snow they just dont compete with awd or 4wd, no matter how much you waste on tires. >okay, whatever, just dont try and flag me down to pull you out of a >snow bank when you slide off the road with you GOOD snow tires.. its [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >ice and snow they just dont compete with awd or 4wd, no matter how much >you waste on tires. Pssst.... I'm with you on this one cos I know what my "real" 4x4 can do with it's all season tyres... http://www.flickr.com/photos/18313866@N00/69081451/ I did hit a bump half way through, someone said it felt like an E46. :o) Dodgy SignatureMUSHROOMS ARE THE OPIATE OF THE MOOSES Im sure that with some good snow tires the average 5 series could make it through that mud and probably take a solid 90 degree turn without slipping too... ;) >okay, whatever, just dont try and flag me down to pull you out of a >snow bank when you slide off the road with you GOOD snow tires.. its [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >were mistakenly driving a rwd, which will easily spin a 360 because it >is "pushing" instead of "pulling" (like I state above) See, up to this point I was willing to listen to you. Now I know you're clueless. Thanks for clearing that up! First, drop the term snow tires. What you are looking for is "winte tires. Winter tires do more than plow through snow. They also help on ice i ways that conventional snows can't. The reason ice is slippery i that a fine layer of water develops on the surface of the ice fro the pressure of the tire (we're talking microscopic) and that work like tiny ball bearings. Tires like Blizzaks have tiny channel molded into the tread that suck that moisture away Second, the compound, the rubber that meets the road, stays pliable a low temps (freezing or below) and therefore grips better even on dr pavement. Summer "performance" tires have the traction of polishe wood in those conditions And finally, all all-wheel/4-wheel drive systems are not create equal. For reason too long to go into here, I had to drive Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 with summer tires in snow. Well, it didn't go At all. The all wheel drive system has open differentials (if yo know what that means) so the wheel with the least traction slippe all to easily. Of course, with the summer tires there wasn't muc traction to begin with. And the 3000GT didn't have much groun clearance either and the snow was several inches deep I have several vehicles to drive in the winter. A 4x4 truck, a 325i and an old beater Pontiac Fiero GT. My number one pick for most of my winter driving is the Fiero (none of my vehicles have winter tires). The exception is when the snow on the road is more than 3-4 inches deep or my drive is drifted shut. Then the 4wd is picked. But it is much better to be able to stop and turn than to accellerate fast, so the cars are preffered if they can get out the drive. The truck does not turn very well at all especially when the t-case is locked in 4wd. When I do have to drive the truck in snow I leave it in 2wd unless I need the 4wd to get moving, its handling is effected that badly. Plus the 4wd drasticly reduces the feal for how slippery the road is, making it hard to tell when your in trouble untill it far to late to do anything about it. Winter tires are great but here where I live in Ohio we just don't have enough days of snow covered roads to quite justify a set. The local govenment does a good job of clearing and salting the roads (I hate road salt). But the roads are usually clear within 1/2 day from the end of a storm. Signature======================================== Todd Zuercher mailto:tzuercher@earthlink.net ======================================== > Winter tires are great but here where I live in Ohio we just don't have > enough days of snow covered roads to quite justify a set. The local > govenment does a good job of clearing and salting the roads (I hate road > salt). But the roads are usually clear within 1/2 day from the end of a > storm. Have you tried winter tires in recent years? They aren't the same as the old "snow tires" of days gone by. The softer compound and improved design characteristics make them actually perform better on dry roads than non-winter tires if the temps are low. So even if you don't get a ton of snow, it may be worth having a second set of tires for the cold months. There is also some economy to be gained by having a second set of winter tires and wheels. Put the mileage on the thinner (generally cheaper) winter tires and save the treadwear on your more expensive performance winter tires for when it can be best utilized (warmer months). Of course if you're just using cheap all-season tires to begin with than the savings will be negligible. Signature-Fred W
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