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Car Forum / BMW Cars / December 2005Serpentine Belt goes bad too soon.
I've been having trouble with premature belt failure for a while and can't figure this out. The first belt that came with the car had a section of it chipped off. The belt caused a knocking sound on the pulleys and was removed. I'd checked the idler pulley and they spin smoothly. I'd installed a new belt by the brand of Continental and it failed the same way (in the California climate) as the first one only after a year. There is another brand from the dealer which I should be using. The brand is BMW. I feel that I've installed the belt incorrectly on this BMW 96 318ti. I made a simple drawing of the belt configuration. What are some practical things I should be doing? http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/4377/serpentine3de.gif Thanks >I've been having trouble with premature belt failure for a while and can't >figure this out. The first belt that came with the car had a section of it [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Thanks Buying a quality belt like a Goodyear Gator Back or Gates check any car repair manual for routing of the belt over the pulleys. Sounds like cheap quality issue to me. Lg >>I've been having trouble with premature belt failure for a while and can't >>figure this out. The first belt that came with the car had a section of it [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Lg Complete nonsense. Continental belts are the best there is. In fact, I'm pretty sure they are OE.  Signature-Fred W >>>I've been having trouble with premature belt failure for a while and can't >>>figure this out. The first belt that came with the car had a section of it [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >Complete nonsense. Continental belts are the best there is. In fact, >I'm pretty sure they are OE. Made by the same company that made the O rings on the shuttle that blew up? If they're so great, why are they falling apart like cheap Chinese Shite on this guy's vehicle? eh? That's two *continentals* in a row that self-destructed in no time on this guy's car. PREMATURE belt failure. I've never known a Gates I couldn't run over with a Caterpillar earth mover that wouldn't still work. It's your money. But remember, the definition of insanity is DOING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND EXPECTING A DIFFERENT RESULT. >>>>I've been having trouble with premature belt failure for a while and can't >>>>figure this out. The first belt that came with the car had a section of it [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > It's your money. But remember, the definition of insanity is DOING > THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND EXPECTING A DIFFERENT RESULT. Your a real genius, huh Larry? Let me guess... your some kind of a marketing guy, aren't you? So, let's see, one guy reports a relatively rare failure mode of a belt occurring twice on one car and you attribute the failure to the belt being defective. Don't you think there just might be some other factor(s) involved specific to this particular car or driver? Not only that, but the OP failed to state how many miles were involved in these failures. There are literally hundreds of thousands of similar BMWs running around with the same belts in them and none of them seem to be having this kind of thing happening, especially in such a short time, let alone twice on the same car. Signature-Fred W >Your a real genius, huh Larry? Are you jealous? > Let me guess... your some kind of a >marketing guy, aren't you? Well that's strike ONE! You've got 2 left. >So, let's see, one guy reports a relatively rare failure mode of a belt >occurring twice on one car and you attribute the failure to the belt >being defective. I would switch brands to see if that made a difference, wouldn't you? After of course, looking at other factors like mis-aligned pulleys and the normal things one looks at. >Don't you think there just might be some other >factor(s) involved specific to this particular car or driver? If there are, he didn't mention them. You can fabricate, invent, fantasize that there are other factors, but that's YOUR fantasy. I'm working off the information given in the report. >Not only >that, but the OP failed to state how many miles were involved in these >failures. He said premature. >There are literally hundreds of thousands of similar BMWs running around >with the same belts in them and none of them seem to be having this kind >of thing happening, especially in such a short time, let alone twice on >the same car. How do you know that * continental * belt isn't a Chinese counterfeit. Question me that, Batman. There are even counterfeit bolts in our military aircraft, one reason the cobra was losing its' rotary wings early in its appearance. What's the big deal, Your Highness and most Excellent Diagnostician? With the serpentine belt OFF, it takes a couple of minutes to check for worn bearings and misaligned pulleys. Only an IDIOT would put another belt on without checking for those things first. Are you calling the OP an idiot? Lg "Lawrence Glickman" <Lawrence_Glickman@comcast.net> wrote in message > Made by the same company that made the O rings on the shuttle that > blew up? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > couldn't run over with a Caterpillar earth mover that wouldn't still > work. Oh, come ON! The space shuttle was a shitteaux design. Wouldnt have made any difference who made the o-rings on that doomed piece of sh.t. Who, maybe not. Now if they'd been made of a material that didn't harden-up in freezing temps... That is not to say its NOT a doomed piece-of-sh.t, though! Dave >"Lawrence Glickman" <Lawrence_Glickman@comcast.net> wrote in message >> Made by the same company that made the O rings on the shuttle that [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Oh, come ON! The space shuttle was a shitteaux design. Wouldnt have >made any difference who made the o-rings on that doomed piece of sh.t. WAS a shitteaux design? They're still flying the thing ya know. Dude, there is such a thing as CRAP RUBBER. Have you never come across this *stuff* before? I've got a Fram Oil Filter out in the garage with CRAP RUBBER for a sealing gasket. If you want a Sample of CRAP RUBBER send me your mailing address and I'll try to get the gasket to you before Christmas. Lg >>"Lawrence Glickman" <Lawrence_Glickman@comcast.net> wrote in message >>> Made by the same company that made the O rings on the shuttle that [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >WAS a shitteaux design? They're still flying the thing ya know. No they're not. Please do try to keep up. SignatureDan. >>>"Lawrence Glickman" <Lawrence_Glickman@comcast.net> wrote in message >>>> Made by the same company that made the O rings on the shuttle that [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >No they're not. Please do try to keep up. Yeah they are. Next launch is scheduled for March 2006 IIRC. Please do try to keep up. >>>>"Lawrence Glickman" <Lawrence_Glickman@comcast.net> wrote in message >>>>> Made by the same company that made the O rings on the shuttle that [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Please do try to keep up. And for how long has it been grounded? What's your definition of "still flying?" <snork> It's the Russians who have been going back and forth to the space station thingy for the past 2 or 3 years. Please read a newspaper now and again, there's a good chap. It might help you to keep up. HTH. HAND, and all that. SignatureDan. > WAS a shitteaux design? They're still flying the thing ya know. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Lg Ive heard all the complaints against Fram, but used them for many years with never a problem...ever. I have switched to Wix or Delco, or just about whatever else I can get, simply so that I dont have to take a lot of BS from people here IF I should ever have a failure;>) Now, if you put them on with a 48' pipe wrench, you may have a gasket failure. The space shuttle seal ring was a different situation. No 'rubber' would have stopped super hot exhaust from coming through there. If it were hot enough to cut into the main fuel tank, no elastomer known to man can stand up to direct exposure to those levels of temperature. The mechanical design, as I remember the case, and the implementation of the assembly process led to a damaged seal ring which then allowed plasma-like gas to escape. >> WAS a shitteaux design? They're still flying the thing ya know. >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >wrench, >you may have a gasket failure. Fram uses a _very_ low-grade gasket in comparison with that supplied on the Mobil 1 series filters. In comparison, Fram's gasket ( and other rubber parts ) is something between chewing gum and a rubber band. >The space shuttle seal ring was a different situation. No 'rubber' would >have [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I remember the case, and the implementation of the assembly process led to >a damaged seal ring which then allowed plasma-like gas to escape. There is such stuff as crap rubber. You know this from buying budget tires and comparing the tread-wear and handling characteristics with a higher quality tire. Crap rubber is not ruled out on my list, as a case for premature belt failure. Other people have ruled it out and gone on a witch hunt for something more sinister. Good for them; they must have lots of extra time on their hands. Lg > There is such stuff as crap rubber. You know this from buying budget > tires and comparing the tread-wear and handling characteristics with a > higher quality tire. Crap rubber is not ruled out on my list, as a > case for premature belt failure. Other people have ruled it out and > gone on a witch hunt for something more sinister. Good for them; they > must have lots of extra time on their hands. Absolutely, there are qualities and types of elastomers which are much better than others for certain jobs. And they can age and ozone crack, even when stored on a shelf in some dealership. I havent bought a cheap set of tires since 1964, when I put a new set of tires on my 57 Thunderbird for $50. Shortly after, I was goosegazing at something, got too close to the car which was stopping in front of me, threw on the brakes and slid into him Learned two lessons that day. > Ive heard all the complaints against Fram, but used them for many years with > never a problem...ever. I have switched to Wix or Delco, or just about [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > wrench, > you may have a gasket failure. The seal isn't the (biggest) weak points of the Fram filters. It's what's inside that is crappy. http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html Signature-Fred W > I've been having trouble with premature belt failure for a while and > can't figure this out. The first belt that came with the car had a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > on this BMW 96 318ti. I made a simple drawing of the belt configuration. > What are some practical things I should be doing? I replaced the original 5 year old 70,000 mile ones on my E39 a couple of years ago - purely as a precaution, as the AC one was showing signs of cracking. The replacements were Bosch so I assume OEM. I had to have the waterpump replaced at a specialist I trust recently - too cold to work in the street - and they reckoned they needed replacing again. They kept the old ones for me, and the AC one had a deep crack at right angles on both sides, and the main one was showing bad deterioration on the ribbed side - chunks of ribbing missing. Signature*Never miss a good chance to shut up * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. If your engine has a harmonic balancer and it is going bad, it can start eating one edge of the belt. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/index.html?id=2120343242 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > I've been having trouble with premature belt failure for a while and can't > figure this out. The first belt that came with the car had a section of it [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Thanks > If your engine has a harmonic balancer and it is going bad, it can start > eating one edge of the belt. If it was a six cylinder model I would agree with you but I don't think there is a harmonic balancer on a four. All things need considering and the most unlikely is a faulty belt. Most likely is a small piece of dirt stuck in the pulley V's somewhere. Even a bit of rough paint would be enough. Then check alignment of pulleys and condition of all bearings. Next check for mounting problems on the belt driven accessories. Also check for undue drag or power consumption from these. Last but very much not least, check that the tensioner spring is in good order and that it is not weakened somehow. I have one engine now where the spring is around half the strength it should be. It is also easy on some applications to install the belt out of square. This applies particularly if say the bottom pulley has more grooves than other pulleys. Manufacturers sometimes standardise on crank pulley sizes but vary the ancillary pulley and belt sizes according to application and load. In this circumstance it is easy for the uninitiated to install a belt wrongly causing undue stress and premature failure. Huw > > If your engine has a harmonic balancer and it is going bad, it can start > > eating one edge of the belt. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Huw It has been years since I've owned a Bimmer but I would think that a 4-cyl. would be far more likely to have a harmonic balancer than a 6, because of the 6-cyl. engine's better inherent balance. nate "N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> wrote > > It has been years since I've owned a Bimmer but I would think that a > 4-cyl. would be far more likely to have a harmonic balancer than a 6, > because of the 6-cyl. engine's better inherent balance. 4 cylinders generally have dynamic balancers[in the form of revolving weights] while 6's have harmonics [in the form of a damped moving mass in the crank pulley]. Huw > > It has been years since I've owned a Bimmer but I would think that a > > 4-cyl. would be far more likely to have a harmonic balancer than a 6, > > because of the 6-cyl. engine's better inherent balance. > 4 cylinders generally have dynamic balancers[in the form of revolving > weights] while 6's have harmonics [in the form of a damped moving mass > in the crank pulley]. Yes- the latest BMW fours have a separate balance shaft - or maybe even a pair of them. Signature*If horrific means to make horrible, does terrific mean to make terrible? Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > It has been years since I've owned a Bimmer but I would think that a > 4-cyl. would be far more likely to have a harmonic balancer than a 6, > because of the 6-cyl. engine's better inherent balance. Sixes also have a harmonic balancer. Signature*Someday, we'll look back on this, laugh nervously and change the subject Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> It has been years since I've owned a Bimmer but I would think that a >> 4-cyl. would be far more likely to have a harmonic balancer than a 6, >> because of the 6-cyl. engine's better inherent balance. > > Sixes also have a harmonic balancer. I think you need to appreciate the difference between dynamic and harmonic balancers. Harmonic balancers are fitted to most six cylinder engines, are external and mounted on the crankshaft itself, usually invisibly within the crank belt pulley. The internal viscous fluid can deteriorate and the mechanism can fail. With ordinary V belts this failure will manifest itself as a very short belt life. In fact the belts can be thrown within a very short time or will twist inside out on the pulleys despite everything else looking OK. There will be no evident vibration felt by the driver. I would not expect serpentine belts to fail in such a short time frame as a result but they will fail eventually. Crank failure can result if left unrepaired for long. Dynamic balancers are what make four cylinder engines run smoothly. These are short or long, single or double counter rotating out-of-balance shafts, gear driven to oppose the out of balance forces of the rotating crank. A failure of these through bearing or casting fracture problems will result in much noise and vibration. Huw > >> It has been years since I've owned a Bimmer but I would think that a > >> 4-cyl. would be far more likely to have a harmonic balancer than a 6, > >> because of the 6-cyl. engine's better inherent balance. > > > > Sixes also have a harmonic balancer. > I think you need to appreciate the difference between dynamic and > harmonic balancers. Since you appear to be replying to me, Huw, I'm well aware of the difference. Signature*The closest I ever got to a 4.0 in school was my blood alcohol content* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> >> It has been years since I've owned a Bimmer but I would think that a >> >> 4-cyl. would be far more likely to have a harmonic balancer than a 6, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Since you appear to be replying to me, Huw, I'm well aware of the > difference. I have not seen fours with harmonic balancers, only dynamic ones. I haven't looked that hard I must admit. Huw > >> >> It has been years since I've owned a Bimmer but I would think that a > >> >> 4-cyl. would be far more likely to have a harmonic balancer than a 6, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Since you appear to be replying to me, Huw, I'm well aware of the > > difference. > I have not seen fours with harmonic balancers, only dynamic ones. I > haven't looked that hard I must admit. Poorly worded, I'll admit. I'd *guess* some ultra high revving ones might well have. Signature*If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely isn't for you * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >>>>>It has been years since I've owned a Bimmer but I would think that a >>>>>4-cyl. would be far more likely to have a harmonic balancer than a 6, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Huw Most of them do have them (M40, M42, M43, M44, maybe others). They are called "Vibration Dampers" in the parts lists. Signature-Fred W <snipped all over the place> > The internal viscous fluid can deteriorate and the > mechanism can fail. With ordinary V belts this failure will manifest itself [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > not expect serpentine belts to fail in such a short time frame as a result > but they will fail eventually. There are a lot of rubber harmonic balancers out there. A whole lot. They fail and the belt pulley that is bolted to the weight ring walks outward or wobbles. The outward walk will eat the side off a serpentine belt and toss or twist a V-belt. The wobble can chunk belts. I still think the OP just has a bad batch of belts... Too old on the shelf likely. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/index.html?id=2120343242 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) "N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> writes in article <1134057220.581074.77140@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> dated 8 Dec 2005 07:53:40 -0800: >It has been years since I've owned a Bimmer but I would think that a >4-cyl. would be far more likely to have a harmonic balancer than a 6, >because of the 6-cyl. engine's better inherent balance. I don't see how. An inline-4 has naturally balanced pistons, provided that the 2 outer cylinders are 360 degrees out of phase (one does compression while the other does exhaust). Then the 2 center ones are 180 degrees different from each of those. So while the outer pair is going one direction, the inner pair is going the opposite direction at the same speed. Are the crank and cam naturally balanced by symetry in an inline? The opposite of the inline-4's perfect balance is the inline-2, used on cheap motorcycles. Those things vibrate like hell because both pistons go up and down together. BMW made a huge improvement with the opposing-2 -- they go in and out together but because they face opposite directions they balance each other out. -- spud_demon -at- thundermaker.net The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer. I would not install a gates belt on this BWM. Gates are a good belt, but not on a euro car. Stick with the continental. >I would not install a gates belt on this BWM. Gates are a good belt, >but not on a euro car. Stick with the continental. see my other post on this topic. From this guy's anecdotal experiences, I wouldn't touch one if you gave it to me for free. Lg > I would not install a gates belt on this BWM. Gates are a good belt, > but not on a euro car. Stick with the continental. Why? A belt is a belt, built according to specs from the manufacturer. (Think: width, length, grooves, and so on). The most important thing is the quality of the materials in the manufacturing of the belt, plus the overall manufacturing process. I use Gates belts and hoses on my Porsche, Isuzu, Chevy, and Suzuki (motorcycle) - Gates outlasts the OEM. Just because some vehicle is not made Stateside, doesnt mean Gates cant build a quality belt/etc for it. Signatureremove MYSHOES to email > I've been having trouble with premature belt failure for a while and can't > figure this out. The first belt that came with the car had a section of it [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Thanks Sam, I'd look closely at each pulley surface, including idlers. Sometimes they wear at an angle towards the center, rather than flat across the original surface--supercharged Buicks have been esp. troublesome in my experience. The idlers have also worn with grooves from who-knows-where ? These grooved pulleys then wear grooves into the belts. HTH, s > "Sam Nickaby" <Samhasnoemail@no.no.com> wrote in message> news:_0zlf.26977$dO2. > > I've been having trouble with premature belt failure for a while and can't > > figure this out. <snip> > Sam, I'd look closely at each pulley surface, including idlers. > Sometimes they wear at an angle towards the center, rather than flat across > the original surface--supercharged Buicks have been esp. troublesome in my > experience. The idlers have also worn with grooves from who-knows-where ? > These grooved pulleys then wear grooves into the belts. HTH, s Thanks all. Based on the advices, I'll change the idler bearings tomorrow. My measurements came out with a full play of 0.04 inch at the top edge of the idler wheel. If I had a German service manual I'd check this number but the best manual I have is Bentley which is almost too basic and nearly useless. Here's more info on the belt issue: 68k miles 5ft-year... = car bought 76k miles 8th year.. = 2" sections of belt chipped 80k miles 9th year ..= all sections of belt splits, some chip, brand Continental 87k miles 10th year = 1" sections of belt chip, brand Continental 87k 10th year .........= will try to replace idler bearing. If the effects of the environment is cracking the ribbed part of the Continental belt, which becomes visible only after two weeks of installation, should there be a preventative maintenance done yearly? Thanks >> "Sam Nickaby" <Samhasnoemail@no.no.com> wrote in message> news:_0zlf.26977$dO2. > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >Thanks Sam, Unless this car is designed as a Mars Rover or is going to operate in a Venutian Atomosphere of ammonia, there is zero maintenance that should need to be done to a serpentine belt. Ever. If you find bearings/pulleys that put uneven stress across the belt, laterally, this could lead to early fatigue of the belt. IOW, the pulleys/idlers _really_ need to be plane-parallel to eachother. Lg > > "Sam Nickaby" <Samhasnoemail@no.no.com> wrote in message> news:_0zlf.26977$dO2. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Thanks I am going to take a wild assed guess and figure you bought the belts at the same place. My next guess is they bought the belts when the car was new or before that even and they have had them sitting on the shelf ever since. If so, the belts have dry rotted. I would try to buy the next belt at a different place and even change brands if one there appears dry to the touch. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/index.html?id=2120343242 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) >>"Sam Nickaby" <Samhasnoemail@no.no.com> wrote in message> news:_0zlf.26977$dO2. > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Thanks Wow. 4k miles on the belt and it frags? Where have you getting your belts from? Maybe they have been sitting on the shelf too long? Signature-Fred W I see on the Car Talk website that someone wrote in with a complaint similar to yours. There conclusion was that the most likely culprit was the crankshaft vibration damper (which has been referred to as the harmonic balancer in this thread). I would think that if yours were failing to the point of causing belt failure that you would be able to see it wobble with the engine running. >> "Sam Nickaby" <Samhasnoemail@no.no.com> wrote in message> >> news:_0zlf.26977$dO2. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Thanks >I see on the Car Talk website that someone wrote in with a complaint >similar to yours. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > causing belt failure that you would be able to see it wobble with the > engine running. I have had several of these damned things fail over the years and there was never any obvious sign apart from throwing belts. Huw > >I see on the Car Talk website that someone wrote in with a complaint > >similar to yours. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I have had several of these damned things fail over the years and there was > never any obvious sign apart from throwing belts. I believe so. Today, I ran the motor with the belt off. There are no signs of wobble. I was tempted to measure the crank pulley with a dial indicator and check the pulleys/idlers plane-parallel to each other but it looks tough. All the other pulley spin without effort. The tensioner is very nice and tight. Everything looks nice and clean. I never buy belts from the same retailer once they fail. For the sake of documentation, I'd snap a photo of the belts, you could see it here. http://www.freewebs.com/nickaby/belts.jpg Picture A is a belt from alloembmwparts.com, AKA thepartsbin.com, which I had been fooled by their oem name. This belt shows signs of cracking in a couple weeks, which eventually self destructs. Picture B (not high- resolution image) is a pretty good belt, no signs of cracking even after a year, except for a section missing. Good retailer, in fact I got many aftermarket rubber parts from www.europartsdirect.com and pretty satisfied. >> >I see on the Car Talk website that someone wrote in with a complaint >> >similar to yours. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >got many aftermarket rubber parts from www.europartsdirect.com >and pretty satisfied. Those cracks...crap rubber. Not able to take the tight radius of the idler pulleys without coming apart. IOW, no elasticity left in them. As a test, I =bet= you can bend that belt with your hands, in your hands, away from the groves, and watch it CRACK right in front of your eyes. Lg Forgive me if I am repeating someone but - Do you drive the car hard? Redline or high RPM's? Do you have a clutch fan? Have you verified that it disengages properly? Blake > Forgive me if I am repeating someone but - > Do you have a clutch fan? <no clutch fan> > Do you drive the car hard? Redline or high RPM's? Nope. Wife drives car. M44, 4-cyl engine is smooth at all rpm. 60% highway - 32-MPG 40% city - 29-MPG |
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