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Car Forum / BMW Cars / March 20061991 M5
I stopped at my dealer to get an oil change today. They have a 1991 M5, with 43,500 miles on it, sitting in the showroom. For a 15 year-old car it is in excellent condition. Just a few touched-up paint nicks on the front end. It's red and has new BMW wheels and Michelin tires on it. It had a SOLD tag on the windshield. I asked one of the sales reps what it sold for. She said they sold it on eBay for $22,500. Yikes! Kelley Blue Book only lists it at around $11,600. Amazing what some of the older BMW's sell for. I thought some of you might want to know that. > I stopped at my dealer to get an oil change today. They have a 1991 M5, with > 43,500 miles on it, sitting in the showroom. For a 15 year-old car it is in [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Yikes! Kelley Blue Book only lists it at around $11,600. Amazing what some > of the older BMW's sell for. It was sold on Ebay.. believe it or not. Now the question is if they'll get paid for it. The E34 M5 is considered the last "pure" M car - one with the hand-made engine from the M division. All the later M cars are really "M"arketing cars - come off the same production line as your standard BMW. Nice car - I watched the auction. KBB is probably more often wrong than right - especially when it comes to limited production cars such as this. Too few sales are reported for accurate numbers to be generated. > The E34 M5 is considered the last "pure" M car - one with the hand-made > engine from the M division. All the later M cars are really "M"arketing > cars - come off the same production line as your standard BMW. C'mon. The M series engines are *very* different from the standard ones. If the actual cars are assembled on the same production line - but using different parts - so what?  Signature*Plagiarism saves time * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> The E34 M5 is considered the last "pure" M car - one with the hand-made >> engine from the M division. All the later M cars are really "M"arketing [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If the actual cars are assembled on the same production line - but using > different parts - so what? I've heard different stories on this. I think the M5 car bodies are assembled at one plant, probably on the same assembly line as the standard 5 series but the V-10 engines are manufactured and assembled at the same facility as other special purpose engines, including BMW's Formula 1 engines. They are then shipped for installation at the car assembly plant. RCE I'd agree with 'admin' that KBB and the other services tend to miss the boat on some of the low production vehicles. They tend to quote #'s that the average person might pay where as 'aficionado's might be willing to pay substantially more. Sometimes for little more than emotional reasons. I really like that 91 M5 myself. Cheers, Chris >>> The E34 M5 is considered the last "pure" M car - one with the hand-made >>> engine from the M division. All the later M cars are really "M"arketing [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > RCE > I'd agree with 'admin' that KBB and the other services tend to miss the boat > on some of the low production vehicles. They tend to quote #'s that the > average person might pay where as 'aficionado's might be willing to pay > substantially more. Sometimes for little more than emotional reasons. I > really like that 91 M5 myself. Agree, KBB, Edmunds, Intellichoice all do this. For example, supposedly only 5% or so of all E34 535i made came with 5 speed manual transmission. Reading the various E34 forums/bulletin boards, 5 spd 535is are rare and very sought after. Yet, all of these service *deduct* from the value of the car because it has a manual transmission. >Agree, KBB, Edmunds, Intellichoice all do this. For example, supposedly only >5% or so of all E34 535i made came with 5 speed manual transmission. Reading >the various E34 forums/bulletin boards, 5 spd 535is are rare and very sought >after. Yet, all of these service *deduct* from the value of the car because >it has a manual transmission. That's because of sample skew. If you browse web sites for BMW enthusiasts, you'll find more people looking for performance-oriented cars than not. The typical E46 3-series is a 325i automatic, but if your only exposure to the market is E46 Fanatics you'd think every E46 was a Jet Black 330i on 19" CSL replicas or an Imola Red ZHP. The people seeking an E34 five-speed are relatively few and far between, and that's what the market reflects. They just happen to congregate on E34 forums more. Heck, Chicago is crawling with BMW dealers and *nobody* had a Jet Black Z4 with manual trans when I was shopping. I flew out of state to get mine, and settled for Sapphire Black (which is nice, but doesn't match my 3!). But if you hang out on www.z4um.com, you'd be shocked to learn an automatic was an option at all, so few posters have one. epbrown -- "I'm...fine." "You were just hit by lightning, you're stark naked, and you can't remember your own name. You've got a fairly loose definition of fine." 2003 BMW 325i Black/Black, 2003 BMW Z4 Black/Black The thing that immediately jumps out at me is that $22k (assuming US dollars) is not that much. Certainly not for a mint condition, fully loaded and most importantly low mileage M5. The trouble with many M5's of that era is that they all have more miles on then than the Millenium Falcon - and you can almost guarantee that those miles will not have been done at a gentle pace either. Lots of e34 M5's with 150k miles on sell for about £6-8k. Just looked up on Autotrader, and there's a 1991 registered M5 with 135k miles on asking price just under £7k. >The thing that immediately jumps out at me is that $22k (assuming US >dollars) is not that much. Certainly not for a mint condition, fully >loaded and most importantly low mileage M5. The gauge I use is "is it crowding the newer model in price?" For instance, I was shopping for a low mileage Z3, say 2001 or 2002. It soon became apparent that most people were asking Z4 money for good Z3s, and after test-driving the newer car it was clear which car was better value for money. To this day I see Z3 asking prices higher than what I paid for my Z4, though I don't know if people are getting near that much. There's a nice '91 M5 near me for $23k with 70k. There are also some nice 2000 M5s around for $26k, with similar miles. Unless you're collecting, the newer cars make more sense. epbrown -- "I'm...fine." "You were just hit by lightning, you're stark naked, and you can't remember your own name. You've got a fairly loose definition of fine." 2003 BMW 325i Black/Black, 2003 BMW Z4 Black/Black > I've heard different stories on this. I think the M5 car bodies are > assembled at one plant, probably on the same assembly line as the standard > 5 series but the V-10 engines are manufactured and assembled at the same > facility as other special purpose engines, including BMW's Formula 1 > engines. They are then shipped for installation at the car assembly > plant. I imagine it's like Alpina. They ship out their internal parts to the BMW factory then accept a nearly complete car back in Germany. There they add the custom Alpina internal options. They used to do it so that they received a full donor car from BMW sans engine, and then fit everything at Alpina but it is more cost effective to send the main bits to the plant. --- Sam for it. > The E34 M5 is considered the last "pure" M car - one with the hand-made > engine from the M division. All the later M cars are really "M"arketing > cars - come off the same production line as your standard BMW. I've never heard anybody say that before. I'm not sure if M cars still have hand-made engines (Alpina's do) but they are certainly no less an 'M' car because of it. The 'M' is worth far more than just a brand name. These are genuinely different vehicles. The M was just as much a 'marketing' car for the original M5 as it is for the current ones - as branding is for all products. --- Sam I agree with Sam, "M" means more than simply 'hand built engine' it's a serious performance car. I personally cannot imagine anyone who's spent time in a recent "M" car saying that they weren't real "M cars". To each his own though. Chris > for it. >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > --- > Sam >I agree with Sam, "M" means more than simply 'hand built engine' it's a >serious performance car. I personally cannot imagine anyone who's spent [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> --- >> Sam My son has an '06 550 i. It's a fantastic performing car with the new 4.8 L, 360 hp V8. I have an '06 M5. As nice as my son's car is -- it's no M5. Marketing it is not. RCE > I agree with Sam, "M" means more than simply 'hand built engine' it's a > serious performance car. I personally cannot imagine anyone who's spent time [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Chris Actually - I own my second M car at the moment (E36/M3) and am considering my 3rd (E46/M3 or E39/M5).. Do the M's provide more performance? Yes.. but the E36/M3 in the US simply used a bigger engine (3.2L vs 2.8L) that was tuned a bit more aggressively than the standard 328i. They did increase spring rates, change the shocks and beef up the anti-roll bars.. but it is still very much like a standard 328i. And the car AND engine came right out of the same product line as the standard E36 cars. Ditto on the M-Roadster and somewhat on the M-Coupe (there was a non-M variant where the only real difference was trim level and the engine size/tuning..) It was and is a "mass-produced" car. My point being - the original M cars (M1, E30/M3) were basically handbuilt cars made for a small audience. BMW has taken the M name and applied it in general to any of their "high performance" vehicles... handbuilt (which they aren't) or mass-produced. This isn't a BAD thing - but it is a dilution of what M originally stood for.. "Motorsports" - ie - racing. The E30/M3 was probably the purest example of "Motorsports" - it was designed for racing where it had to be a car available for purchase by the general public, so BMW made it available to the general public. None of the M's that followed it had that purity of design. M = a "M"arketing term now - not Motorsports. I understand what you're saying, and it makes perfect sense. I was ignorant, for lack of a better term, about how 'special' the original M cars were. I've always admired them but didn't realize that they were a sort of homogulation car. I'll give them even greater respect now. Thanks for the info! Chris >> I agree with Sam, "M" means more than simply 'hand built engine' it's a >> serious performance car. I personally cannot imagine anyone who's spent [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > to the general public. None of the M's that followed it had that purity of > design. M = a "M"arketing term now - not Motorsports. <My point being - the original M cars (M1, E30/M3) were basically handbuilt cars made for a small audience. BMW has taken the M name and applied it in general to any of their "high performance" vehicles... handbuilt (which they aren't) or mass-produced. This isn't a BAD thing - but it is a dilution of what M originally stood for.. "Motorsports" - ie - racing. The E30/M3 was probably the purest example of "Motorsports" - it was designed for racing where it had to be a car available for purchase by the general public, so BMW made it available to the general public. None of the M's that followed it had that purity of design. M = a "M"arketing term now - not Motorsports. > Would the original E28 M5, which was also "handbuilt for a small audience (I think less than 1300 were made)," be considered "Marketing" or perhaps more "Mainstream," than the M1 or E30 M3? Further, how would you classify the E24 M6? > Would the original E28 M5, which was also "handbuilt for a small > audience (I think less than 1300 were made)," be considered "Marketing" > or perhaps more "Mainstream," than the M1 or E30 M3? Further, how would > you classify the E24 M6? Actually - a lot more than 1,300 E28/M5's were made - just not imported to the US. BMW made the "M535" in Europe from around 1983 on. The ones imported to the US were supposed to be limited to 500 examples.. but they sold well so BMW brought more in. This became the basis of a successful class-action lawsuit since BMW diluted the 'exclusivity" of the car. - In other words - the lawsuit determined it was "M"arketing. :) I'd put them half-way to "M"arketing - to some extent the US releases were an effort by BMW to get rid of the left over E24 and E38 bodies at the end of production (marketing) - although the engines WERE special and not closely based on a production engine, plus the cars did get final assembly at the Motorsport production facilities - not on a normal assembly line. So - only 1/2 "M"arketing IMHO (and you are certainly free to differ.) The E28/M5 is a favorite of a lot of people - since the car is actually probably smaller than a current E90 3 series, and feels quite nimble, although in today's market - the engine power isn't a lot to write home about. <Actually - a lot more than 1,300 E28/M5's were made - just not imported > This is correct. According to the E28 M5 FAQ, the following is the total number of E28 M5s made: How many versions of the E28 M5 were developed? BMW Motorsport built four different versions of the E28 M5, three at the M works in Garching, Germany (European-spec in left-hand drive and right-hand drive, plus the North American version) and a South African-spec model for the home market assembled from Complete Knock Down (CKD) kits. How many of each version were produced? ECE (LHD): 588 built from 10/84 thru 9/87 ECE (RHD): 187 built from 3/86 thru 10/87 NA (LHD): 1,370 built from 9/86 thru 11/87 SA (RHD): 96 assembled from kits from 3/87 thru 6/88 In addition to the "special engine," the M5 also received special suspension, brakes and wheels. How is the suspension of the E28 M5 different from that of a standard 5 Series? All M5s use the MacPherson strut/semi-trailing arm chassis design common to all E28 5 Series. However, it has been upgraded by BMW Motorsport in the following ways: -Shorter, stiffer progressive-rate coil springs (not fitted to the North American version) -Increased steering caster -Specially-tuned Bilstein shocks -25mm (front) and 18mm (rear) anti-roll bars A self-leveling rear suspension was optional in some markets and standard on all North American-spec M5s. What size brakes does the E28 M5 have? The E28 M5 has enlarged vented front rotors that measure 11.8-inches (300mm) in diameter. These utilize four-piston calipers. The solid rear rotors are the same as those fitted to an E28 535i or M535i, measuring 11.2-inches (285mm) in diameter. ABS is standard. What are the E28 M5's factory wheel and tire sizes? There were two available factory wheel and tire sizes for the E28 M5. Early European-spec cars have metric-sized wheels measuring 195mm x 390mm with 220/55VR390 tires. Later European-spec examples, as well as all those sold in North America and South Africa, have 7.5x16-inch cross-spoke alloy wheels with 225/50VR16 tires, usually Pirelli P700s. <The E28/M5 is a favorite of a lot of people - since the car is actually probably smaller than a current E90 3 series, and feels quite nimble, although in today's market - the engine power isn't a lot to write home about.> Actually, the E28/M5 power is very similar to the current E90 3 Series. In US form, the E28 M5 had 256hp (SAE) and 243 lb-ft of torque. In contrast, the current E90 330i is listed as having 255hp and 220 lb-ft of torque. Weight for both cars are very similar with the E28 M5 in the 3420lb range; the E90 330i at about 3417lb. |
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