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Car Forum / BMW Cars / March 2006over reving
bmw 530i new to steptronic transission driving my car using the stepronic mode aciddently down shifted to lower gear instead of up shifting to higher gear rpm shot up to 4500rpm would this result in damage to the car or transmission. Also how high of a rpm am i able to achieve without hurting or damaging the car. > bmw 530i new to steptronic transission > > driving my car using the stepronic mode aciddently down shifted to lower > gear instead of > up shifting to higher gear rpm shot up to 4500rpm would this result in > damage to the car or transmission. Please read the thread you have already started on this subject. > Also how high of a rpm am i able to > achieve without hurting or damaging the car. Depends on the car. There is a red line on the rev' counter. This should not be exceeded. Running near it for prolonged periods will greatly shorten the life of your engine. >bmw 530i new to steptronic transission > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >damage to the car or transmission. Also how high of a rpm am i able to >achieve without hurting or damaging the car. I would suggest that the engine shuts off automatically to protect itself if the rpm gets into the red area. Obviously you should not drive it at max rpm all the time :o) I never tried, but do not think that the StepTronic gearbox would allow you to shift into a gear that would break the car. But why bother switching it manually - I think that it does a great job on it's own. ** Lars > But why > bother switching it manually - I think that it does a great job on > it's own. I often use the manual override to take it down a gear or two when I am planning an overtake - no need to worry about if the kick down will happen as smoothly/timely as you want it - two taps of the lever then floor it!  Signaturejeremy ['01 BMW 530iA SE Touring] >> But why >> bother switching it manually - I think that it does a great job on [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > happen as smoothly/timely as you want it - two taps of the lever then > floor it! Usually just switching to sport mode will make it drop a cog, and then you should be ready - in S the box will change up if you manage to red line it, whereas in a manually selected gear it will simply limit the rev's. > Usually just switching to sport mode will make it drop a cog, and then you > should be ready - in S the box will change up if you manage to red line it, > whereas in a manually selected gear it will simply limit the rev's. Sure but if you're doing 60 and want to make an overtake, simply switching into S will drop to 4th but you'll still likely want to drop to 3rd to make the quickest pass. Not hard to remember to nudge the lever forward when the revs reach 5.5k or revs ;) Signaturejeremy ['01 BMW 530iA SE Touring] >> But why >> bother switching it manually - I think that it does a great job on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >happen as smoothly/timely as you want it - two taps of the lever then >floor it! Well, I think that pulling it into the S mode does the trick, in general that takes it down on gear which normally produces quite sufficient torque to overtake the most... ** Lars / 2002 - 530dA touring > Well, I think that pulling it into the S mode does the trick, in > general that takes it down on gear which normally produces quite > sufficient torque to overtake the most... Quite possibly because of what you drive > ** Lars / 2002 - 530dA touring I think dropping down 2 is required more often though in mine :) Signaturejeremy ['01 BMW 530iA SE Touring] >>bmw 530i new to steptronic transission >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I would suggest that the engine shuts off automatically to protect > itself if the rpm gets into the red area. It doesn't shut off, but it starts not firing to limit the rev's. > bmw 530i new to steptronic transission > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > damage to the car or transmission. Also how high of a rpm am i able to > achieve without hurting or damaging the car. if it's smart it won't let you downshift if the revs will spike past the redline... when that happens in a manual gearbox (usually 3rd to 2nd shift instead of 3rd to 4th) it's called the 'money shift' because you bend all your valves and lose a lot of money in about 0.2 seconds ! but in an auto it's not really possible, even the newer manual with auto-clutch boxes will not let you go past redline 4500rpm though is nothing, assuming you're past the break-in period (usually 1500km i think these days). you really should let it have a good rev now and then, don't be scared of watching the tach needle soar, the engine will love it and so will you ! > if it's smart it won't let you downshift if the revs will spike past the > redline... when that happens in a manual gearbox (usually 3rd to 2nd > shift instead of 3rd to 4th) it's called the 'money shift' because you > bend all your valves and lose a lot of money in about 0.2 seconds ! but > in an auto it's not really possible, even the newer manual with > auto-clutch boxes will not let you go past redline The lock up on my previous ZF 5 speed (not Steptronic) on an E34 525 was absolute. That's what I dislike about the 'nanny state' Steptronic - it doesn't allow you to start in a high gear in ice, etc. Or run the engine to the rev limiter. On a fun twisty road it's often the case where you'd do that with a manual in say second gear then back off slightly before the next bend - but the Steptronic changes up. Signature*Succeed, in spite of management * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > On a fun twisty road it's often the case where you'd > do that with a manual in say second gear then back off slightly before the > next bend - but the Steptronic changes up. It doesn't change up if you're in manual mode? Signaturejeremy ['01 BMW 530iA SE Touring] > > On a fun twisty road it's often the case where you'd do that with a > > manual in say second gear then back off slightly before the next bend > > - but the Steptronic changes up. > It doesn't change up if you're in manual mode? The ZF version on UK cars does - it will change up or down if you exceed the rev limits at either end. Could be the GM version as fitted to some US BMWs may be different - but I doubt it. Signature*If they arrest the Energizer Bunny, would they charge it with battery? * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > > > On a fun twisty road it's often the case where you'd do that with a > > > manual in say second gear then back off slightly before the next bend [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the rev limits at either end. Could be the GM version as fitted to some US > BMWs may be different - but I doubt it. Oh I hadn't noticed that - there's been a few times when I've been in manual mode on mine and noticed that it *hasn't* changed up automatically - it only changes down automatically when you come to a *very* low speed. Perhaps I just haven't abused it enough yet. Signaturejeremy ['01 BMW 530iA SE Touring] > > The ZF version on UK cars does - it will change up or down if you > > exceed the rev limits at either end. Could be the GM version as fitted > > to some US BMWs may be different - but I doubt it. > Oh I hadn't noticed that - there's been a few times when I've been in > manual mode on mine and noticed that it *hasn't* changed up > automatically - it only changes down automatically when you come to a > *very* low speed. > Perhaps I just haven't abused it enough yet. You don't abuse a BMW engine by taking it to its rev limit. It's actually quite a sensible thing to do once in a while - after making sure it's properly warmed up. In Steptronic mode it changes up at the same maximum speeds as in kickdown - normal or sport. Signature*I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >>>The ZF version on UK cars does - it will change up or down if you >>>exceed the rev limits at either end. Could be the GM version as fitted [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > In Steptronic mode it changes up at the same maximum speeds as in kickdown > - normal or sport. Not the ones I've driven. It stayed in the gear that it was in until I moved the lever, except when you came to a crawl... Signature-Fred W > >>>The ZF version on UK cars does - it will change up or down if you > >>>exceed the rev limits at either end. Could be the GM version as fitted [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Not the ones I've driven. It stayed in the gear that it was in until I > moved the lever, except when you came to a crawl... Are you saying that if you have it in "manual" mode then it *won't* change up under any circumstances? I haven't explicitly tested this but have never known mine to shift up automatically. But this seems to disagree with Dave's experience? Signaturejeremy ['01 BMW 530iA SE Touring] "Jeremy" <jeremy0505@gmail.com> wrote in message >> Not the ones I've driven. It stayed in the gear that it was in until I >> moved the lever, except when you came to a crawl... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > have never known mine to shift up automatically. But this seems to > disagree with Dave's experience? Interesting experiment Select say 2nd and rev to red line, and then keep pressing the options are: - 1. Car changes to 3rd and keeps accelerating. Unlucky if on steep descent, but might not change if accelerator not pressed. 2. Car stays in gear and EMU limits rev's to red line - no change in speed. Shame if you are overtaking a truck with something coming towards you. 3. Engine over rev's. Expensive trip to the repair shop. Does it make any difference in a diesel? > "Jeremy" <jeremy0505@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > have never known mine to shift up automatically. But this seems to > > disagree with Dave's experience? > Interesting experiment > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > 3. Engine over rev's. > Expensive trip to the repair shop. Option 2 is in my opinion how it should behave if you're in manual mode - otherwise it is not manual IYSWIM. Only a complete pillock would fail to register that it might be a good idea to engage a higher gear.... > Does it make any difference in a diesel? No idea. Signaturejeremy ['01 BMW 530iA SE Touring] > Option 2 is in my opinion how it should behave if you're in manual mode > - otherwise it is not manual IYSWIM. Which it's not. It changes up or down regardless of the gear you've selected once outside the pre-determined rev limits. No true manual I've ever driven does this. ;-) > Only a complete pillock would fail to register that it might be a good > idea to engage a higher gear.... True - but then the engine has a rev limiter to keep it safe. Signature*Being healthy is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > > In Steptronic mode it changes up at the same maximum speeds as in > > kickdown - normal or sport. > Not the ones I've driven. It stayed in the gear that it was in until I > moved the lever, except when you came to a crawl... Must be a different spec to mine. It definitely changes up at the red line, and changes down at about 1000 rpm. Signature*If a parsley farmer is sued, can they garnish his wages? Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >>>In Steptronic mode it changes up at the same maximum speeds as in >>>kickdown - normal or sport. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Must be a different spec to mine. It definitely changes up at the red > line, and changes down at about 1000 rpm. Perhaps it does upshift at redline. It was not my car so I did not test it at that high an rpm. But who cares, no sane person waits until redline to shift up. You are past peak horsepower so there really is no point... Signature-Fred W > > Must be a different spec to mine. It definitely changes up at the red > > line, and changes down at about 1000 rpm. > Perhaps it does upshift at redline. It was not my car so I did not test > it at that high an rpm. But who cares, no sane person waits until > redline to shift up. You are past peak horsepower so there really is no > point... Peak horsepower matters not a jot, really.;-) And my 528 doesn't run out of puff at the maximum auto change up point. What you ideally need is to get near peak torque on the next higher gear. Hence the demise of 2 speed autos... Signature*Age is a very high price to pay for maturity. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> > Must be a different spec to mine. It definitely changes up at the red >> > line, and changes down at about 1000 rpm. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > get near peak torque on the next higher gear. Hence the demise of 2 speed > autos... Not sure about the 2.8, but the 220hp 3.0 litre develops maximum torque at 3,500. So with the exception of the 1~2 shift, upshifts should be well below the 6,500 redline (ca. 4,500~5,000) to hit the torque peak in the next gear in a 6 speed manual. Tom K. > "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message > > What you ideally need is to get near peak torque on the next higher gear. > >Hence the demise of 2 speed autos... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Tom K. Excellent example, Tom, of why shifting for peak torque in the next gear is usually shifting too early when you want maximum acceleration. Frank > What you ideally need is to > get near peak torque on the next higher gear. Hence the demise of 2 speed > autos... Not necessarily. Acceleration is proportional to horsepower, not torque (I'll show you from F=ma, if you want) so what you want to do is maintain the highest value of hp that you can. Pretty sure this means that you want to go far enough past the peak that when you shift to the next gear, and drop down on the other side of the peak, you haven't gone significantly lower in hp than where you just were in the previous gear. If that point matches peak torque, it's just a coincidence. Frank >> > The ZF version on UK cars does - it will change up or down if you >> > exceed the rev limits at either end. Could be the GM version as fitted [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >In Steptronic mode it changes up at the same maximum speeds as in kickdown >- normal or sport. I nearly always use mine in auto and rarely red line it. Is there any point in having the manual sports option if it only does the same as the auto. I am relieved to know I cannot over rev the motor and maybe I would have used the sports/manual version more now but what is the point? pete > > > The ZF version on UK cars does - it will change up or down if you > > > exceed the rev limits at either end. Could be the GM version as fitted [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > In Steptronic mode it changes up at the same maximum speeds as in kickdown > - normal or sport. Ok I tested this at the weekend. Switched into manual mode, popped it into 2nd and took it up to 6000rpm - no automatic upchange. I didn't feel inclined ot keep it at those revs for any longer but, certainly on mine, selecting a gear manually keeps it in that gear *unless8 the speed drops to a crawl. If it had changed up automatically at over 6000 revs it would be academic anyway - therefore I think that, with reference to your previous statement: "On a fun twisty road it's often the case where you'd do that with a manual in say second gear then back off slightly before the next bend - but the Steptronic changes up." In my experience you can do exactly as you describe above without the system automatically changing up. cheers Signaturejeremy ['01 BMW 530iA SE Touring] > > In Steptronic mode it changes up at the same maximum speeds as in > > kickdown - normal or sport. > Ok I tested this at the weekend. Switched into manual mode, popped it > into 2nd and took it up to 6000rpm - no automatic upchange. I didn't [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > it would be academic anyway - therefore I think that, with reference to > your previous statement: Have you observed the RPM at the gearbox changes up when using kickdown? That is exactly the same maximum as it will when using the Steptronic selection. That you choose to rely on some arbitrary figure on your rev counter for the sake of your argument makes no difference. > "On a fun twisty road it's often the case where you'd do that with a > manual in say second gear then back off slightly before the next bend - > but the Steptronic changes up." > In my experience you can do exactly as you describe above without the > system automatically changing up. You've not been trying hard enough. ;-) Signature*How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost? * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > > > In Steptronic mode it changes up at the same maximum speeds as in > > > kickdown - normal or sport. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > selection. That you choose to rely on some arbitrary figure on your rev > counter for the sake of your argument makes no difference. OK I'll go and do some more testing and report back :) Signaturejeremy ['01 BMW 530iA SE Touring] > > > In Steptronic mode it changes up at the same maximum speeds as in > > > kickdown - normal or sport. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > You've not been trying hard enough. ;-) OK I've tried a bit harder now. You are completely correct. It will force a change up from 1st to 2nd in manual mode when you hit approx 6300 rpm (inside the red zone). I still reckon your remarks regarding holding it in gear on a fun twisty road were misplaced though - after all you're not actually going to want to rev it ~6300 and hold it there - and it would be quite a coincidence if the maximumm speed you wanted to do in a particular gear would correspond to say ~6400? It was fun finding all this out though ;) Signaturejeremy ['01 BMW 530iA SE Touring] > > You've not been trying hard enough. ;-) > OK I've tried a bit harder now. > You are completely correct. That's no surprise. ;-) > It will force a change up from 1st to 2nd in manual mode when you hit > approx 6300 rpm (inside the red zone). Yup. On my car the auto transmission gets well into the red zone on kickdown. I'd not expect any different since it's not a brick wall sort of thing. The engine ECU does that. > I still reckon your remarks regarding holding it in gear on a fun twisty > road were misplaced though - after all you're not actually going to want > to rev it ~6300 and hold it there - and it would be quite a coincidence > if the maximumm speed you wanted to do in a particular gear would > correspond to say ~6400? No. On a manual you 'feel' when the engine is reaching maximum revs since all go over peak power. So you back off slightly. The fooking Steptronic changes up so you end up without maximum power to drift through a corner. When having a play on a deserted road. Basically Steptronic is a waste of time and most who have it never bother with it. The sports auto mode does as well. > It was fun finding all this out though ;) Signature*Honk if you love peace and quiet* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >OK I've tried a bit harder now. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >It was fun finding all this out though ;) I tried it out the other way around. My 540 is a bit fierce in 1st gear and I have now discovered I can start easily enough in second or even third but it will change down if I put it into a high gear before the car wants that to happen. pete My hobby horse. http://www.brazierbridgewood.blogspot.com/ > I tried it out the other way around. My 540 is a bit fierce in 1st > gear and I have now discovered I can start easily enough in second or > even third but it will change down if I put it into a high gear before > the car wants that to happen. Interesting. Mine only allows a second gear start. Nor can you change up below its limits - although the dash indicator will show the higher gear you've attempted to select before reverting to the actual one. Signature*Remember not to forget that which you do not need to know.* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> I tried it out the other way around. My 540 is a bit fierce in 1st >> gear and I have now discovered I can start easily enough in second or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >below its limits - although the dash indicator will show the higher gear >you've attempted to select before reverting to the actual one. It could be because of the big lump I have. I did try starting in 4th but it just changed back down to 3rd. I have not redlined this car and I do not intend to either so I do not know how it acts going up through the box. That is about the only use I can find for manual selection, starting in a higher gear. pete My hobby horse. http://www.brazierbridgewood.blogspot.com/ >>> I tried it out the other way around. My 540 is a bit fierce in 1st >>> gear and I have now discovered I can start easily enough in second or [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >through the box. That is about the only use I can find for manual >selection, starting in a higher gear. Out of curiousity tonight while cruising at 50+mph not much + I slipped it into manual or 'S' and it registered 5th and the revs went from 1500 up to 2000. I slipped it back into drive and they went back down to 1500 revs and during this there was no noticeable change of speed???? pete My hobby horse. http://www.brazierbridgewood.blogspot.com/ >>>> I tried it out the other way around. My 540 is a bit fierce in 1st >>>> gear and I have now discovered I can start easily enough in second or [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >I slipped it back into drive and they went back down to 1500 revs and >during this there was no noticeable change of speed???? Follow up. It doesn't register 5th. It is my eyesight I am afraid. It registers 's'. However I have started using this mode all the time when driving in town or crawling traffic now as it just takes off easily in 3rd. pete My hobby horse. http://www.brazierbridgewood.blogspot.com/ In colour too now. http://www.flickr.com/photos/ipswich/ > The lock up on my previous ZF 5 speed (not Steptronic) on an E34 525 was > absolute. The previous 5 speed box was switchable. AFAIAA it only ever switches up in fifth in E[conomy]. If you change into S[port], then at anything below about a ton (and above 55mph) it will change down into 4th and won't go back up to fifth until you reach well in excess of 100mph* - whether it ever locks up in 5S I don't know, because I would normally revert to economy before I was likely to find out (nor indeed is it a good idea to drive that fast on public roads in the UK!). > That's what I dislike about the 'nanny state' Steptronic - it > doesn't allow you to start in a high gear in ice, etc. Previous swtchable box also had snow mode (*) - this would start in third and worked rather well. > Or run the engine > to the rev limiter. On a fun twisty road it's often the case where you'd > do that with a manual in say second gear then back off slightly before the > next bend - but the Steptronic changes up. Prior to ZF5 switchable they had a four speed auto. Not bad, but a tendency to hunt between third, fourth and lock up on long winding bits. * in a 740. I wonder if they set the lock up differently in the USA, as 55mph must be infuriating on the interstate... > > The lock up on my previous ZF 5 speed (not Steptronic) on an E34 525 > > was absolute. > The previous 5 speed box was switchable. AFAIAA it only ever switches > up in fifth in E[conomy]. If you change into S[port], then at anything [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > revert to economy before I was likely to find out (nor indeed is it a > good idea to drive that fast on public roads in the UK!). > > That's what I dislike about the 'nanny state' Steptronic - it doesn't > > allow you to start in a high gear in ice, etc. > Previous swtchable box also had snow mode (*) - this would start in > third and worked rather well. In this mode, select a gear and it stayed in it regardless of speed. Signature*Never test the depth of the water with both feet.* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > bmw 530i new to steptronic transission > driving my car using the stepronic mode aciddently down shifted to lower > gear instead of up shifting to higher gear rpm shot up to 4500rpm would > this result in damage to the car or transmission. Also how high of a rpm > am i able to achieve without hurting or damaging the car. Didn't you read the answers to your earlier thread on the same topic? Steptronic is designed to be idiot proof. Signature*According to my calculations, the problem doesn't exist. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > bmw 530i new to steptronic transission > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > damage to the car or transmission. Also how high of a rpm am i able to > achieve without hurting or damaging the car. 4500 rpm is not even close to damaging the engine. I shift at 5000-6000 rpm all the time. Redline on your tachometer is supposed to show you what rpms are safe. Anything below redline is fine. That should be around 7500 rpm. BTW - your steptronic will never down shift if the rpm it that will go to is going to be above redline. It's pretty smart that way... Signature-Fred W Have you noticed the red portion of the tachometer? If the needle goes into the red area, you screwed up. NEVER allow the needle to go into the red area. > bmw 530i new to steptronic transission > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > damage to the car or transmission. Also how high of a rpm am i able to > achieve without hurting or damaging the car. > Have you noticed the red portion of the tachometer? If the needle goes > into the red area, you screwed up. NEVER allow the needle to go into > the red area. In normal auto mode, kickdown will take you into the red area. Signature*Wrinkled was not one of the things I wanted to be when I grew up Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> Have you noticed the red portion of the tachometer? If the needle goes >> into the red area, you screwed up. NEVER allow the needle to go into >> the red area. > > In normal auto mode, kickdown will take you into the red area. Then the driver is doing something wrong. If a downshift carries the motor into Red Line, the downshift was poorly timed. Period. >>> Have you noticed the red portion of the tachometer? If the needle goes >>> into the red area, you screwed up. NEVER allow the needle to go into [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Then the driver is doing something wrong. If a downshift carries the > motor into Red Line, the downshift was poorly timed. Period. That's alright, I'm not buying it. I don't believe the transmission control module is stupid enough to down shift into redline, which BTW would then invalidate the engine warranty. Unless you see some real evidence to the contrary, I would not believe Mr Plowman's assertion. Signature-Fred W > >> In normal auto mode, kickdown will take you into the red area. > > > > Then the driver is doing something wrong. If a downshift carries the > > motor into Red Line, the downshift was poorly timed. Period. > That's alright, I'm not buying it. I don't believe the transmission > control module is stupid enough to down shift into redline, which BTW > would then invalidate the engine warranty. Unless you see some real > evidence to the contrary, I would not believe Mr Plowman's assertion. It's unlikely you have driven a 528 with the ZF auto. Signature*Forget about World Peace...Visualize using your turn signal. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. The rev limiter kicks in @ 6500RPM on the M54 engine. 7000 on the newer (magnesium block) six. 4500 RPM is just getting into the power band. There's this red area on your tachometer (that's the big round dial next to the speedometer). Keep the needle from getting too far into that zone and you won't hurt the engine. BTW, the auto trans and ECU will prevent you from goving too far into that zone and over-revving the engine. If a step downshift would result in an over-rev, it won't downshift. Now if you had a manual transmission, you CAN goon it up. R / John > bmw 530i new to steptronic transission > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > damage to the car or transmission. Also how high of a rpm am i able to > achieve without hurting or damaging the car. |
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