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Car Forum / BMW Cars / May 2006what tranny and diff fluid should I use in my 330xi?
I have passed the 50k mark... Lifetime fluid is really not lifetime, so I want to service these asap. What fluids are best for this car? BTW, what engine oil do you say is best? >I have passed the 50k mark... Lifetime fluid is really not lifetime, so I >want to service these asap. > What fluids are best for this car? Well, *MY* 330xi has Redline MTL and Redline GL5 in the transmission and diffs. If you have an auto tranny, I have no idea what to put in there. > BTW, what engine oil do you say is best? Pretty much everyone uses the OEM BMW oil (which is Castrol), or Mobil-1 (which is about $5 a quart at Costco - you need 8 quarts for your 330xi.) And GI-Joe's now carries oil filters for it. FloydR > I have passed the 50k mark... Lifetime fluid is really not lifetime, so I > want to service these asap. > > What fluids are best for this car? > BTW, what engine oil do you say is best? I have been told from an experienced mechanic that to replace the auto transmission oil before 100K is a total waste of time and money >> I have passed the 50k mark... Lifetime fluid is really not lifetime, >> so I want to service these asap. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I have been told from an experienced mechanic that to replace the auto > transmission oil before 100K is a total waste of time and money That's nice. Will he be paying for your repair bill if it does?  Signature-Fred W > >> I have passed the 50k mark... Lifetime fluid is really not lifetime, > >> so I want to service these asap. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > That's nice. Will he be paying for your repair bill if it does? I see you believe in that mythology. I have lifetime fluid in my auto tranny and have no intentions of ever changing it (86k miles on it now). I have NEVER changed transmission fluid in any car I've owned, and I keep cars for WELL over 100k miles. (Never once needed a transmission repair either.) Checking it okay; changing it, no. Do you also believe cars need oil changes every 3k miles? Changing t. fluid often does more harm than good, by well meaning, but uninformed owners. Even my owners manual doesn't recommend it. Manuals like Bentleys will fill paper on how to change it, and that it needs doing regularly, it's just padding a book the way I see it. -- Cliff >>>>I have passed the 50k mark... Lifetime fluid is really not lifetime, >>>>so I want to service these asap. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I've owned, and I keep cars for WELL over 100k miles. (Never > once needed a transmission repair either.) Well of course you can drive a car over 100k miles without doing any maintenance. That's not the point. Talk to me after 200k or 300k and let me know how that lifetime tranny fluid is getting along. Mythology my a.s... > Checking it okay; changing it, no. Do you also believe cars need > oil changes every 3k miles? No. 5k miles is about right (depending on usage) and even longer if using full synthetics. > Changing t. fluid often does more harm than good, by well meaning, > but uninformed owners. What you are referring to is when people change it after waiting 100k miles and have a sudden failure. It wasn't the fluid change that caused the problem, it was the prior negligence. If the fluid was changed regularly at reasonable intervals, (say every 40-50k miles) there is never any sudden issues. > Even my owners manual doesn't recommend it. Of course it doesn't. It was written by the same manufacturer that was trying to convince the original purchaser that their car is so reliable that it requires hardly any regular maintenance. Especially the portion they are committed to pay for in their largest market. > Manuals like Bentleys will fill paper on how to change it, and that > it needs doing regularly, it's just padding a book the way I see it. Ah, I see. And what exactly are your "expert" qualifications? But the funny thing is, I don't see anywhere in the Bentley manual that shows how to change the fluid in a lifetime fill - sealed ZF transmission. Signature-Fred W > Well of course you can drive a car over 100k miles without doing any > maintenance. That's not the point. No it isn't, and I never made such a point. We are talking about transmissions with lifetime fluid. >Talk to me after 200k or 300k and > let me know how that lifetime tranny fluid is getting along. Well, I've yet to hit 200k miles with any car, but one of my cars is pushing 180k at present. I have *added* some t. fluid, but never changed it....still works like a charm. I've had other cars in the past till well into the 100s with no problems whatever. > No. 5k miles is about right (depending on usage) and even longer if > using full synthetics. I change the oil and filter in my other car about every 4k, with LOTS of city driving and idling, but I doubt it really needs it. I use Mobil 1 syn with the BMW and change it about every 8.5k, which is usually every December, but it's probably overkill. > What you are referring to is when people change it after waiting 100k > miles and have a sudden failure. It wasn't the fluid change that caused > the problem, it was the prior negligence. If the fluid was changed > regularly at reasonable intervals, (say every 40-50k miles) there is > never any sudden issues. So you say. > Of course it doesn't. It was written by the same manufacturer that was > trying to convince the original purchaser that their car is so reliable > that it requires hardly any regular maintenance. Especially the portion > they are committed to pay for in their largest market. I don't buy this, sorry. Waste your time & money if you like. > > Manuals like Bentleys will fill paper on how to change it, and that > > it needs doing regularly, it's just padding a book the way I see it. > > Ah, I see. And what exactly are your "expert" qualifications? Never claimed to have expert qualifications; just years of experience owning and maintaining cars. > But the funny thing is, I don't see anywhere in the Bentley manual that > shows how to change the fluid in a lifetime fill - sealed ZF transmission. I don't know anything about it, but if it's factory sealed, even Bentley, Haynes or the the others wouldn't have any instructions on changing fluid in such a tranny, for obvious reasons. -- Cliff you are only supposed to change filter and replace fluid that came out on older LIFETIME trannys. It may last, it likely won't. If you try flushing a lifetime tranny after 120k miles, it will possibly leak or die from having new fluid cleaning up the gunk. If you service it every 50k miles, it will never die or leak.... I had a 540 that was neglected, it cost me a rebuild. > Well of course you can drive a car over 100k miles without doing any > maintenance. That's not the point. Talk to me after 200k or 300k and > let me know how that lifetime tranny fluid is getting along. Most autos will fail before that mileage regardless of fluid changes. Signature*When companies ship Styrofoam, what do they pack it in? * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > > Well of course you can drive a car over 100k miles without doing any > > maintenance. That's not the point. Talk to me after 200k or 300k and > > let me know how that lifetime tranny fluid is getting along. > > Most autos will fail before that mileage regardless of fluid changes. Yep, and lots of times they fail early due to style of driving over time. But this is one of those arguments that never really gets settled. People have deeply set beliefs about things and are convinced the other guy is wrong--or won't admit THEY could be wrong. ---------- "Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." ----Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 2001 -- Cliff > Yep, and lots of times they fail early due to style of driving over > time. But this is one of those arguments that never really gets > settled. People have deeply set beliefs about things and > are convinced the other guy is wrong--or won't admit THEY > could be wrong. Yes - however you can look at history as regards extending oil change periods as oils, filtering and engine manufacturing techniques improve. When I were a *very* young lad, they were every 1000 miles. By the time my father got his first new car, they were 3000. But he managed to wear out that engine to the point where it needed a re-bore and crank grind etc before 40,000 miles - despite regular servicing. By the time I started driving 5 or 6000 oil changes were the norm - but most cars would wear out one or more engines in their life. My first almost new car was bought in the early '80s and was up to 10,000 mile oil changes. Still got it and it's somewhere around 170,000 miles on the original and still very fit engine - although not in everyday use. My BMW does somewhat more than that 10,000 before the service indicator announces the need for an oil change. So my *personal* experience says the makers know exactly what they're doing with oil and fluid change intervals. More so than anyone on here, IMHO. Signature*The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. <snip> > So my *personal* experience says the makers know exactly what they're > doing with oil and fluid change intervals. More so than anyone on here, > IMHO. Likewise. The first car I decided to follow the manufacturer's change interval for is a 1991 Honda Accord. 180K miles later the engine is fine after changes with conventional oil every 7500 miles. Chances are the engine will outlast the rest of the car, which is getting moderately rusty...but still, I expect it to hit 250K or more before my son has to replace it. JRE > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > JRE Swell. Enjoy you Honda (snicker...) Signature-Fred W > Swell. Enjoy you Honda (snicker...) It gets my son where he needs to go, as my E46 330i (with PP) gets me where I need to go. And I'm following BMW's recommendations for it and my wife's 325i, too. I might report on how they're doing in 15 years or so. Or not. Oh, and you left off an "R" in your post. Here's a few extra in case you need them, Fred: rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr JRE > Fred W wrote:> > > > > Swell. Enjoy you Honda (snicker...) > > It gets my son where he needs to go, Not only that, but you've enjoyed and used a well engineered automobile for many years, with, I'm sure, damn few problems, just as I have with my Japanese car---'90 model, 176k miles with a history of nothing but regular oil/filter changes, a couple of timing belt changes (which still looked good after 60k miles on them), brake pads, and the other minor and usual service. Nary a real problem and the sweetie still drives as it did when brand new. Oh yeah, I've also put in a couple radiators (cheap). This is in stark contrast to my Beamer, which has had a list of ailments half as long as my arm, mostly electrical problems, but not all. It still has that shimmy at ~60 mph that nobody has ever been able to pinpoint as to its cause; there is also that multi-year minor emissions problem which keeps tiggering the Check Engine light that they can't find. My sister had a nice Accord, and it was fun to drive. She then decided to trade it for a BMW. I wanted to ask her why but never did. -- Cliff >> Swell. Enjoy you Honda (snicker...) > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > JRE Thanks. Being from the Boston area I tend not to use too many of those. You know, "I pahk my cah at Havahd Yahd", and all that... But I'll hang on to them for the when I need them. Signature-Fred W great response! > Likewise. The first car I decided to follow the manufacturer's change > interval for is a 1991 Honda Accord. 180K miles later the engine is > fine after changes with conventional oil every 7500 miles. Chances are > the engine will outlast the rest of the car, which is getting moderately > rusty...but still, I expect it to hit 250K or more before my son has to > replace it. ...and if Honda suddenly said increase the service interval to 15,000 miles you'd be ok with that too? > > Likewise. The first car I decided to follow the manufacturer's change > > interval for is a 1991 Honda Accord. 180K miles later the engine is > > fine after changes with conventional oil every 7500 miles. Chances > > are the engine will outlast the rest of the car, which is getting > > moderately rusty...but still, I expect it to hit 250K or more before > > my son has to replace it. > ...and if Honda suddenly said increase the service interval to 15,000 > miles you'd be ok with that too? BMW did near that - double the change interval. With a higher spec oil. If you doubt them you can have the oil analysed at the higher interval to see how it's doing. Everyone I've read of doing this reports it's ok. Gut feelings have little place in science. Signature*To err is human. To forgive is against company policy. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > ...and if Honda suddenly said increase the service interval to 15,000 > miles you'd be ok with that too? If they did that while improving the metallurgy of the engine's materials and the service classification of the oil (not to mention switching to synthetic oil), then yes. I'm OK with it for our bimmers. If you choose to buy more oil and filters that's your choice... JRE > > ...and if Honda suddenly said increase the service interval to 15,000 > > miles you'd be ok with that too? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > JRE On my M3 new oil will last about 7000 miles before I have to start doing regular top-ups. After an oil change it'll use no oil until the 7000 mile mark again. > On my M3 new oil will last about 7000 miles before I have to start > doing regular top-ups. After an oil change it'll use no oil until the > 7000 mile mark again. That's a good time to change it on an E46 M3, in my opinion. I have a 2002 M3 and had an oil analysis done after 6000 miles on the oil. Although still usable, it did show a high level of fuel in the oil resulting in a viscosity change. Although Brookstone didn't specifically recommend changing the oil (maybe because I mentioned the sample was taken at an oil change), they did say it was a good idea. This is about what I expected - half the BMW recommended mileage. My M3 service indicator has routinely got to zero each 12,000 miles. Bob >>On my M3 new oil will last about 7000 miles before I have to start >>doing regular top-ups. After an oil change it'll use no oil until the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Bob No, no Bob. The BMW engineers know best. You should leave that oil in there until the idiot lights say to change it. It says so right in the manual. In case you can't tell, I'm being facetious... ;-) Signature-Fred W >> On my M3 new oil will last about 7000 miles before I have to start >> doing regular top-ups. After an oil change it'll use no oil until the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the oil. Although still usable, it did show a high level of fuel in the >oil resulting in a viscosity change. Although Brookstone didn't Do you drive short distances a lot ? >specifically recommend changing the oil (maybe because I mentioned >the sample was taken at an oil change), they did say it was a good idea. > >This is about what I expected - half the BMW recommended mileage. >My M3 service indicator has routinely got to zero each 12,000 miles. I also change my m3's oil at 7K miles. >>>...and if Honda suddenly said increase the service interval to 15,000 >>>miles you'd be ok with that too? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > doing regular top-ups. After an oil change it'll use no oil until the > 7000 mile mark again. So what is that telling you? To me it suggests that the viscosity of your oil is changing (for the worse) at or actually a little before the 7k mile mark. The small amount of oil that you are adding is not enough to help the average viscosity (hey, there's 8 quarts in there...) so you continue to burn some oil. Then when you change the oil it is back to the correct viscosity again. If that were my car I would be changing the oil at (or actually bit before) 7k miles. Yes, it may cost you more than changing the oil per schedule or the service reminder. And some will tell you that it makes no difference. You have observed evidence to the contrary. But it's not my car, so you can continue to do whatever you like... Signature-Fred W >>Well of course you can drive a car over 100k miles without doing any >>maintenance. That's not the point. Talk to me after 200k or 300k and >>let me know how that lifetime tranny fluid is getting along. > > Most autos will fail before that mileage regardless of fluid changes. Most? I don't think so. Some, certainly. A lot depends on how you drive it. The rub is, for the vast majority of these so-called "lifetime fill" transmissions, the original owners believed (or wanted to believe) the manufacturer and so did not do regular fluid changes, so we will never collect anything but anecdotal evidence that they can be made to last longer with proper maintenance. But assuming that other brand cars' automatic transmissions are similar, the ones that *do* advise changing the fluid at regular intervals (40-50k miles) often get much better longevity than those of the "lifetime" ilk. Signature-Fred W >But the funny thing is, I don't see anywhere in the Bentley manual that >shows how to change the fluid in a lifetime fill - sealed ZF transmission. Actually you can try asking the author of the Bentley manual about that. The Bentley authors seem to answer a surprisingly large number of questions. You can ask them via: http://tech.bentleypublishers.com/category.jspa?categoryName=bmw Cheers, -Ted > > I have been told from an experienced mechanic that to replace the auto > > transmission oil before 100K is a total waste of time and money > That's nice. Will he be paying for your repair bill if it does? Well, you can't just replace the auto fluid as you can't drain the torque convertor. It can be flushed but this uses even more of the very expensive fluid. Because of the cost, I'd have the fluid analysed to see if it needs changing. Signature*I believe five out of four people have trouble with fractions. * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. some of you truly are clueless... Lifetime fluid means 100k, it should be done every 50k miles to keep it healthy. I wanted names of fluids more than timeframes... but after driving an e34 540 for years, I know lifetime fluid is a joke. Those of you who NEVER do the maintenance are going to have issues after 100k miles, and the car will be dead after 200k. I may or may noty keep the car after 100k miles, but I would surely feel better knowing it is at it's best. If you are clueless or can't afford to do basic, helpful maintenance, you should have bought a Hyundai. BMW has new maintenance shcedulesw,,, but only since THEY pay the maintenance! Before they offerred that, the suggested maintenance timeframes were MUCH more frequent. If you believe that the cars just got this extended maintenance shcedule because they learned how to make things last, you are dreaming. What fluids do those of you use who are smart enough to change them? For my 1990 BMW E34 535i, 5spd, 106K miles, I change my manual tranny and differential fluids as suggested by BMW: *Every 30,000 miles* I use either Redline MTL and my last change was with Royal Purple. Since my car takes less than 2 qts of fluids, and its really, really easy to change (basically you jack the car up and open up the fill plug and drain plug, drain and refill), its like $12-15 each change. For MY CAR, with the older maintainence schedule, it also recommends flushing coolant and brake fluid every 2 years; change brake fluid every year if track. Since I still use dino oil, I normally burn a quart every 3000-3500 miles, so I usually change it around that time (and filter, of course). For my 1990 BMW E34 535i, 5spd, 106K miles, I change my manual tranny and differential fluids as suggested by BMW: *Every 30,000 miles* I use either Redline MTL and my last change was with Royal Purple. Since my car takes less than 2 qts of fluids, and its really, really easy to change (basically you jack the car up and open up the fill plug and drain plug, drain and refill), its like $12-15 each change. For MY CAR, with the older maintainence schedule, it also recommends flushing coolant and brake fluid every 2 years; change brake fluid every year if track. Since I still use dino oil, I normally burn a quart every 3000-3500 miles, so I usually change it around that time (and filter, of course). > BMW has new maintenance shcedulesw,,, but only since THEY pay the > maintenance! Before they offerred that, the suggested maintenance > timeframes were MUCH more frequent. And all the lubricants have been changed since then. BTW, 'free' maintenance isn't included in every country BMW sells to. Nor is it free - it's part of the premium you pay for a BMW over other cars. Signature*I wished the buck stopped here, as I could use a few* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >I have passed the 50k mark... Lifetime fluid is really not lifetime, so I >want to service these asap. > > What fluids are best for this car? > BTW, what engine oil do you say is best? Engine oil. Any quality synthetic in 5W30. Trans. Auto requires a special fluid that is not cheap. 50K would be a good time if you intend to own the car past 120K (usual BMW auto trans life). Trans. Manual. Redline MTL or D4 ATF are excellent. Royal Purple synchromax also very good. BMW uses ATF for ease of shifting in the cold. MTL is the better lubricant, but you need to be deliberate with the gear shift until the trans warms in cold weather. Every 30K or insp interval 1 & 2. Diff. 75W90 Synthetic gear lube (non-limited slip). Redline or RP are both excellent. 30K etc. Don't forget the power steering. Synthetic D4 ATF. 30K etc. R / John I agree with almost all of what John recommended. However, for power steering fluid, best to check your owner's manual or better yet, power steering reservior cap, as some BMW, especially older ones, do not use ATF. Instead, some older BMW, especially those with hydraulic steering, use Pentosin, which is expensive stuff compared to ATF. You cannot change or mix and match. Best to check the power steering reservior cap to see which fluid you use. this is a 2003, but my older 540 takes pentosin, I forget which one, but there are 2 versions. what about quantities of fluid? so I know what to buy!? > Instead, some older BMW, especially those with hydraulic steering, use > Pentosin, which is expensive stuff compared to ATF. You cannot change > or mix and match. The recommended PS fluid for older BMWs is Dexron II Signature*Santa's helpers are subordinate clauses* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >>Instead, some older BMW, especially those with hydraulic steering, use >>Pentosin, which is expensive stuff compared to ATF. You cannot change >>or mix and match. > > The recommended PS fluid for older BMWs is Dexron II Not all of them. Many take Pentosin CHF11S (I think that is what it is, Just off the top of my head) Signature-Fred W > > The recommended PS fluid for older BMWs is Dexron II > Not all of them. Many take Pentosin CHF11S (I think that is what it is, > Just off the top of my head) Might be difficult in the UK as I've never seen Pentosin of any type on sale. Unless it has a different brand name here. Signature*Born free - taxed to death * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. That's true, but since Dexron II ATF is *no longer available* most people use Dexron III ATF. On the other hand, some BMW require Pentosin: Pentosin 11s http://www.bavauto.com//assets/product_images/hardpart/82111468041.jpg Pentosin 7.1 http://www.bavauto.com//assets/product_images/hardpart/81229407549.jpg Again, READ the hydraulic steering reservior cap to make sure you use the correct one! > That's true, but since Dexron II ATF is *no longer available* most > people use Dexron III ATF. Yes - as far as I know it's suitable as a replacement or even to be mixed with Dexron II. Signature*If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled? Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. excellent info, thanks > I have passed the 50k mark... Lifetime fluid is really not lifetime, so I > want to service these asap. > > What fluids are best for this car? > BTW, what engine oil do you say is best? For engine oil, check out the 5W40 Fully Synthetic Shell Rotella T. It is designed for (very) extended use in light diesels, but is also certified for use in gas engines. Available at WalMarts for pretty cheap ($15 a gallon as I recall) and it's the best thing since sliced bread as far as I can find. Better performance than Mobil 1 or Castrol Syntec at ~1/3 less cost. I'm switching over everything I own to this stuff (motorcycles, cars, outdoor power equipment) until they catch on and raise the price into the stratosphere... Signature-Fred W >> I have passed the 50k mark... Lifetime fluid is really not lifetime, so I >> want to service these asap. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >outdoor power equipment) until they catch on and raise the price into >the stratosphere... I'v ebeen using the rotella T synthetic in my motorcycle for a couple years now. Excellent stuff and a steal. here is my plan... the car has 55k miles and has only followed BMW service so far. Inspection 2 was done last november.\ engine oil change with Mobil 1 0w-40 diff fluid change with ?? Redline, but what type? or Royal Purple? Tranny fluid change with BMW synthetic. Removal of CDV for smoother shifting. PLEASE comment on the fluid types you like, NOT intervals... <snip> > PLEASE comment on the fluid types you like, NOT intervals... I'm kinda partial to Bass Ale and Becks, myself. JRE > here is my plan... the car has 55k miles and has only followed BMW service > so far. Inspection 2 was done last november.\ > > engine oil change with Mobil 1 0w-40 I have a hard time finding this. I'd be tempted to go with the Shell Rotella T 5W40 I mentioned before. > diff fluid change with ?? Redline, but what type? or Royal Purple? I like Mobile 1 synthetic gear oil for this. > Tranny fluid change with BMW synthetic. Not sure about current models, but the Redline MTL seems to be the fluid of choice for most of the (older) manual transmissions > Removal of CDV for smoother shifting. Not a fluid, but I'd be on that one like stink on feces. Probably before it even needed its next oil change. I hate an artificially slowed down clutch action. Oh and while you're at it, if you don't know the last time it was done, you might think about a brake/clutch fluid change/bleed. Any good DOT4 (not 3, definitely not 5) Signature-Fred W >I have passed the 50k mark... Lifetime fluid is really not lifetime, so I >want to service these asap. > >What fluids are best for this car? >BTW, what engine oil do you say is best? This might interest you; http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=002116 |
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