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Car Forum / BMW Cars / June 2006

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Are Radar Detectors Useless?

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Bacon - 31 May 2006 08:32 GMT
I've gotten 4 tickets in the last 6 months.  Luckily I'm in Missouri
where your lawyer buddy "fixes" them.  I've always thought radar
detectors were left over from the 70's and all the different bands and
instant on stuff cops use makes them ineffective.  But I'm getting
desperate.
Sam Smith - 31 May 2006 11:06 GMT
> I've gotten 4 tickets in the last 6 months.  Luckily I'm in Missouri
> where your lawyer buddy "fixes" them.  I've always thought radar
> detectors were left over from the 70's and all the different bands and
> instant on stuff cops use makes them ineffective.  But I'm getting
> desperate.

It might be different in the UK but they are useful in reminding you where
the fixed speed traps are but you still have to be on the look out for
roving unmarked traffic enforcement vehicles.

The best clue as to where they are usually parked is to look for the
straightest, safest piece of road you can find totally away from any housing
that hasn't had any accidents.

Why are you bothered if your lawyer buddy 'fixes' them anyway? That sounds
very useful. Expensive is it?

---
Sam
R. Mark Clayton - 31 May 2006 15:16 GMT
>> I've gotten 4 tickets in the last 6 months.  Luckily I'm in Missouri
>> where your lawyer buddy "fixes" them.  I've always thought radar
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> straightest, safest piece of road you can find totally away from any
> housing that hasn't had any accidents.

Another good clue is if you can see sign marking the end of or increase in
the speed restriction.  Naturally as soon as one sees it one will adjust for
it (just as one would start slowing down as soon as one saw a stop sign),
then just before the sign will be the police van with the tripod in the
back.  They nearly got me with this with a van with an orange lamp* parked
up in front of a 40 sign.  Its back doors were open (so marking not visible)
and the camera was in the gloom in the back.

Last week I spotted a chap on a footbridge with a very discrete unit.  Again
aimed at just where the 40 changes to 50mph.  Nearest houses ~200m and
doubly fenced off from the dual carriageway and the footbridge actually
there for crossing it...  Yes there had been a tragic fatality at this
location - a man jumped off the bridge to commit suicide.

* borrowed from the airport, where they have orange rather than blue lights
on top.
Dori A Schmetterling - 02 Jun 2006 18:06 GMT
Bar stewards!

DAS
Signature

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

[...]
> back.  They nearly got me with this with a van with an orange lamp* parked
> up in front of a 40 sign.  Its back doors were open (so marking not
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> * borrowed from the airport, where they have orange rather than blue
> lights on top.
Bacon - 01 Jun 2006 00:11 GMT
> > I've gotten 4 tickets in the last 6 months.  Luckily I'm in Missouri
> > where your lawyer buddy "fixes" them.  I've always thought radar
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Why are you bothered if your lawyer buddy 'fixes' them anyway? That sounds
> very useful. Expensive is it?

> ---
> Sam

It is somewhat expensive depending on the speed.  I got one going 85mph
in a 55mph zone and the fine was $186.50.  Fixing it takes care of the
points, but they still fine you.  By contrast, the one I got going 54
in a 35 was only $79 as it was under 20mph over the limit.  As long as
my lawyer buddy doesn't get sick of my freeloading, I'm probably better
off not spending $400 on a high end detector.
joe_tide - 31 May 2006 11:43 GMT
> I've gotten 4 tickets in the last 6 months.  Luckily I'm in Missouri
> where your lawyer buddy "fixes" them.  I've always thought radar
> detectors were left over from the 70's and all the different bands and
> instant on stuff cops use makes them ineffective.  But I'm getting
> desperate.

Mike Valentine has a pretty good explanation of what to expect from modern
radar detectors. Click on the links on the left side.

http://www.valentine1.com/
Fred W - 31 May 2006 12:49 GMT
> I've gotten 4 tickets in the last 6 months.  Luckily I'm in Missouri
> where your lawyer buddy "fixes" them.  I've always thought radar
> detectors were left over from the 70's and all the different bands and
> instant on stuff cops use makes them ineffective.  But I'm getting
> desperate.

You could just slow down...

Signature

-Fred W

Sam Smith - 31 May 2006 13:03 GMT
>> I've gotten 4 tickets in the last 6 months.  Luckily I'm in Missouri
>> where your lawyer buddy "fixes" them.  I've always thought radar
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> You could just slow down...

Or use public transport.

---
Sam
Richard Sexton - 31 May 2006 19:27 GMT
>>> I've gotten 4 tickets in the last 6 months.  Luckily I'm in Missouri
>>> where your lawyer buddy "fixes" them.  I've always thought radar
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Or use public transport.

Or get a used Lada.

Signature

  Need Mercedes parts?   http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton       | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

E28 Guy© - 31 May 2006 20:46 GMT
> >>> I've gotten 4 tickets in the last 6 months.  Luckily I'm in Missouri
> >>> where your lawyer buddy "fixes" them.  I've always thought radar
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Or get a used Lada.

Having been to Missouri a number of times, I'd have to adopt their
state motto with respect to your suggestion of finding a used Lada:
"Show me."
--
C.R. Krieger
(Been there; ain't seen *that*)
Dori A Schmetterling - 02 Jun 2006 18:08 GMT
An old diesel car -- could be a Merc -- is better for keeping the speed
down.

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

[...]

> Or get a used Lada.
Floyd Rogers - 02 Jun 2006 18:54 GMT
> "Richard Sexton" <richard@news.vrx.net> wrote [...]
>>
>> Or get a used Lada.
>
> An old diesel car -- could be a Merc -- is better for keeping the speed
> down.

Bill Gates got to keep driving, back in 1980, after getting
8-12 tickets (never new exactly) in his 911 when they were moving
Microsoft from Albuquerque to Seattle.  His mother got
the judge to let him off if he would drive a Merc 300D exclusively.
It was a slug.

FloydR
Dori A Schmetterling - 04 Jun 2006 19:44 GMT
No, the 200D -- which I had 1980/2 -- is a slug (60 PS, 1400 kg).

Was still great to drive, especially as it was (my first) company car
(working in Germany).

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

[...]
drive a Merc 300D exclusively.
> It was a slug.
>
> FloydR
Bacon - 01 Jun 2006 00:14 GMT
> > I've gotten 4 tickets in the last 6 months.  Luckily I'm in Missouri
> > where your lawyer buddy "fixes" them.  I've always thought radar
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> --
> -Fred W

Never!  Actually after each ticket I slow down but then the creep sets
in and I gradually get back to full speed in a few days.  I can't drive
the 330i slow.
Voinin - 01 Jun 2006 01:26 GMT
>>> I've gotten 4 tickets in the last 6 months.  Luckily I'm in Missouri
>>> where your lawyer buddy "fixes" them.  I've always thought radar
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> in and I gradually get back to full speed in a few days.  I can't drive
> the 330i slow.

Yeah, BMWs just ask to be driven fast.  I remember when I had just
gotten my first one (a 78 528i) my sister asked me if she could borrow
it.  I said yes, but she needed to be careful because it wanted to drive
fast.  She just scoffed at that.  When she came back, she spoke with a
bit of awe in her voice saying, "You're right!  It DOES want to drive fast!"

I have found a solution of sorts to avoid speeding.  Cruise control
works pretty well.  It does keep your foot off the gas pedal.  Or you
could just drive in southern California during rush hour.

Signature

Or what? You'll release the dogs? Or the bees? Or the dogs with bees in
their mouth and when they bark they shoot bees at you?

Bacon - 01 Jun 2006 03:24 GMT
>>>> I've gotten 4 tickets in the last 6 months.  Luckily I'm in Missouri
>>>> where your lawyer buddy "fixes" them.  I've always thought radar
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>works pretty well.  It does keep your foot off the gas pedal.  Or you
>could just drive in southern California during rush hour.

I had 1999 Audi 2.8 Quattro, then a 2002 Audi 3.0 Quattro and now a
2006 330i - sports package, 6 speed manual, silver.  I never knew what
loving a car was, I can't believe I wasted all those years on Audi's.
Jeff Strickland - 01 Jun 2006 00:44 GMT
You could try slowing down. I know that hurts, but when one is truly
desperate, then painful measures are close at hand.

You need a "wide band" radar detector that detects lots of kinds of "radar".
These run FROM about $300. Yes, they work. They don't work nearly as well as
pressing the pedal a bit softer though.

> I've gotten 4 tickets in the last 6 months.  Luckily I'm in Missouri
> where your lawyer buddy "fixes" them.  I've always thought radar
> detectors were left over from the 70's and all the different bands and
> instant on stuff cops use makes them ineffective.  But I'm getting
> desperate.
Bacon - 01 Jun 2006 03:28 GMT
The utility I derive from fast driving outweighs the sting of the
fines.  Now when I lived in Atlanta, you couldn't get tickets fixed,
seems to be a Missouri racket exclusively.  I'm not complaining, but
I'm sure State Farm is.

>You could try slowing down. I know that hurts, but when one is truly
>desperate, then painful measures are close at hand.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>> instant on stuff cops use makes them ineffective.  But I'm getting
>> desperate.
Rex B - 01 Jun 2006 16:42 GMT
> You could try slowing down. I know that hurts, but when one is truly
> desperate, then painful measures are close at hand.

Well, slowing down is the simple answer. I've found most of my tickets
over the years have been less from stretching the envelope as simple
inattention. I probably know that the limit drops 10 mph, but I may be
distracted at that exact moment and carry my speed an extra 100 yards.
Of course, the cops know that and make sure they are scanning that 100
yards.
    Keep in mind that speeding fines are about revenue collection and
not safety, and it's a lot easier to anticipate problem areas.
Speedtraps are almost never in areas where safety issues exist.
    There are a couple of good books out on avoiding tickets that are
worth a read. Usually written by ex-cops who help you understand the
limitations and the mindset. Cops are creatures of habit, just like the
rest of us.

> You need a "wide band" radar detector that detects lots of kinds of
> "radar". These run FROM about $300. Yes, they work. They don't work
> nearly as well as pressing the pedal a bit softer though.

Valentine 1 is still the standard. Now and then another model beats them
in a test, but for my money, I'd buy the V1.  I just haven't wanted one
bad enough to spring for the $400 yet. But I don't drive as much as I
used to when I was doing outside sales.

   With a good radar detector, a low-profile vehicle and common sense,
you can cover a lot of road quickly without attracting LEO attention.

Here in Texas the standard way to handle a ticket is to request deferred
adjudication.  Same cost as the ticket, but if you can keep from getting
another ticket in the same town within 90 days, the ticket does not go
on your record.  I'm surprised that hasn't gone away.
Richard Sperry - 02 Jun 2006 12:25 GMT
I guess you guys don't drive on the I 95 corrador, if you aren't doing at
least 80 you will get run over, or off the road, if not shot. Speeding
without electornic support is just dumb, and you are just asking for another
ticket. The only time I have gotten a ticket in the last 20 or so years, was
on the Aprilia, without the V1. Trooper said 100+MPH in a 55 on the ticket.
Since I never passed anyone, (road was clear), all I got was a speeding
ticket, as opposed to a reckless charge. Anyway court = PBJ. pay the $550
fine and be on my merry way.

Lesson? Buy the detector, and think like a cop.
Fred W - 02 Jun 2006 12:53 GMT
> I guess you guys don't drive on the I 95 corrador, if you aren't doing at
> least 80 you will get run over, or off the road, if not shot. Speeding
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Lesson? Buy the detector, and think like a cop.

If you are driving the same speed as the majority of cars on any road
you will not get pulled over.  You do not need a radar detector unless
a) you are driving faster than the crowd - or 2) you are driving on
roads with little other traffic.

In the Northeast, even on I95, 10mph over the limit is a given.  Driving
75mph on the interstate you will never get pulled over, even if you are
the only car on the road.  That also happens to coincide with the speed
that traffic generally goes.  There are some cars that will go faster.

BTW, if you were really driving 100+ on your bike you were most
definitely going considerably faster than the average traffic.  In most
states a reckless charge is usually based on "speed over the limit" only
(which is stupid) and does not need to take traffic or road conditions
into account.

Signature

-Fred W

Jeff Strickland - 02 Jun 2006 21:03 GMT
>> I guess you guys don't drive on the I 95 corrador, if you aren't doing at
>> least 80 you will get run over, or off the road, if not shot. Speeding
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> (which is stupid) and does not need to take traffic or road conditions
> into account.

In Calif., any speed that is 30+ mph over the posted limit is considered
wreckless driving. This can get your car immediately impounded.
Dean Dark - 02 Jun 2006 22:48 GMT
>In Calif., any speed that is 30+ mph over the posted limit is considered
>wreckless driving.
^^^^^^^^^
I'm not going there...
Signature

Dan.

Fred W - 02 Jun 2006 23:08 GMT
>>> I guess you guys don't drive on the I 95 corrador, if you aren't
>>> doing at least 80 you will get run over, or off the road, if not
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> In Calif., any speed that is 30+ mph over the posted limit is considered
> wreckless driving. This can get your car immediately impounded.

 zactly!

Signature

-Fred W

Dean Dark - 02 Jun 2006 12:53 GMT
>Lesson? Buy the detector, and think like a cop.

Here's an Atlanta cop's view of speeding and radar, it was posted
elsewhere about a year ago.  An interesting writing style...
=======================
Awright, glubdammit, enough whining and speculating about how to get
out of a speeding ticket. So much has been thrown around that's made
me snork my skoal that I've got to toss in my notes. Forget the
websites that have scrounged bits and pieces of mis-applied theory and
the ones that want to sell you a book. Have a seat on Uncle Juan's lap
and lemme tell you how it is. Yeah, right there. Squirm a little, I
like it.

First off, if you were speeding, stop whining. You played the game,
you got caught. Spare me the "this road was designed for xx miles per
hour, this speed limit is arbitrary, you're just trying to make money
for the county" etc. etc. Of COURSE I'm trying to make money for the
county, numbnuts! Complain to your commissioners if you want; all they
care about is that dollar figure on the fines revenue sheet each
month.

Second, schmooze it into a warning. Save the vitriol unless you really
want a "contempt of cop" ticket. Polite and even toned. Don't swing
the other way, either, into begging. Doesn't work, won't tug my
heartstrings; I haven't got one. And while I might be bi and willing
to sleep with almost anything, I'm not stupid. Put your swaying dugs
back in the blouse/tuck your man-missle back into the jeans. If you've
got a unique excuse or story- and I mean unique and funny, not the
same tired cliches- it might work. I'm a sucker for a good story I
haven't heard before. You can try the "I've really got to find a
bathroom!" only if you're willing to go the extra mile and actually
sh.t your pants. That has worked on me before- I figure anyone that
dedicated to getting a warning has gone above and beyond the call of
doody.

Third, as has been stated here before, shut the f.ck up. I'm going to
ask you "do you know why I stopped you?" and "do you know how fast you
were going?" Of course. Statements made by the driver are tasty
nuggets in court. Give it your best somewhat bewildered act. "Um, not
really... Speeding? Goodness. I thought I was going the speed limit,
but..."

Fourth, won't really help, but I thought I'd put it out there, as it
seems to be the most popular bit of urban legend: No, I do not have to
show you the radar.

Fifth, don't stand out. Don't give me a reason to remember you a month
or two later when the case finally drags into court. Be unremarkable.

So, the cocksucker gave you a ticket anyway. Well, now's the time to
hope you've got a lazy officer. You have three choices: Bench trial,
where it's you, the officer, and a judge; Bench trial with an
attorney; or jury trial. Beware attorneys "specializing" in speeding
cases... like DUI sharks, they don't give a sh.t if they win or lose.
All they want are their fees; as many as they can charge. They're not
worried about word-of-mouth referrals, because there's always more
fish in the sea. Jury trial can be a double-edged sword: You may find
a sympathetic jury; but if you're convicted, it's been my experience
that the State or Superior court judge who had to hear your case is
tired of "penny-ante" misdemeanors clogging his courtroom and will
slam you with the maximum punishment allowable.

Bench trial? OK. Don't put too much hope on the officer not showing
up. In some large, busy jurisdictions; possibly. In smaller ones, the
judges get testy when officers ignore their subpoenas. Your hope is to
attack his foundation. Note that this varies from state to state, but
most of them are similar.

First, he'd better have the required paperwork. A radar permit,
created by the jurisdiction's government and approved by the
Department of Public Safety that lists, in excruciating detail, the
roads on which radar is allowed to be run and the posted limits on
those roads. A calibration performed by a licensed FCC Radiotelephone
Technician once a year. A radar log showing a test of the unit's
calibration at the beginning and end of each shift (hint: look for
calibration check times that are the same each day. No one can do the
test at the exact same time every single day). In Georgia, the
violator has to be offered a test of the calibration of the unit on
the side of the road before the citation is written. The calibration
test, otherwise known as the "manufacturer's recommended daily test"
has to be performed as stated in the unit's manual... so he needs to
show the manual. The tuning forks also need to have yearly
certification paperwork... and ask to see the forks. Do the serial
numbers match the ones on the paperwork? Tuning forks go missing a
lot; and a lot of officers just grab whatever set they can find. Are
the forks chewed up because he's been smacking against something
harder than aluminum to make them ring? An FCC license granting
permission to operate the radar transmitter. His operator's permit,
and any renewal permits. If he's failed to present any of this during
his testimony, ask to see it when it's your turn. If the judge is
honest, he'll have to throw it out; because the State failed to lay a
proper foundation.

Next, in Georgia, there's some other locations that exclude operation
of radar. If he's stationary, he has to be visible for 500 yards
unless he's in a school zone, marked historical district, or marked
residential district. He can't operate on a road with more than a 7%
grade. He can't operate within 500 feet of a sign warning that speed
detection devices are used in the jurisdiction or a sign warning of a
speed change ahead; or within 300 feet of a reduction in speed sign in
an urban area (600 feet in a rural area). The speed measured must be
more than 10mph over the posted speed limit. IMPORTANT CAVEAT: None of
that applies to God's Special People, AKA the GSP, Georgia State
Patrol. They can basically run wherever they want.

Next, he has to have a valid tracking history to show that the speed
he registered belonged to your car. First is the visual estimate. Part
of his training is estimating speeds within +/- 5mph visually. Second
is the audio doppler tone. It should be pure and free of distortion
and of a pitch that matches his visual estimate. Third is the target
speed reading. It should match the visual estimate and doppler tone.
If he's running moving radar, the patrol speed displayed by the radar
must match his speedometer +/- 1mph. Finally, if he's running same
lane radar, he must speed up or slow down and ensure that the target
speed reading remains constant; this is the target speed
discrimination test. He may also identify your vehicle by listening to
the audio doppler as the car passes through the antenna's sidelobe;
the audio will drop off and distort as the car passes before finding
another target. Very few officers do this, I've found. Did he leave
out his tracking history, or was it incomplete? Attack this, as it's
how he ensured he tracked the correct car.

If he's dotted his i's and crossed his t's, rotsa ruck. At least you
will have the satisfaction of having fought a good fight; maybe 1/2 of
1 percent of people ever bother attacking a foundation or tracking
history. Their "testimony" usually makes the judge roll his eyes.
Don't be that person.

I present a gruff, jack-booted thug image online. Of course I do...
it's far more entertaining to the masses than Dudly Do-Right. Tweaking
the noses of folks who get bent out of shape too easily over imagined
slights of justice is too enjoyable. But I've certified several
hundred officers in this part of the state to run radar and laser, and
despite my persona, I can't become that kind of hypocrite. When I
write a ticket, I am 100% sure I am correct; or I don't issue one.

But, never fear, Atlanta area denizens. There are 50 lazy cops for
every one of me. And now that I'm sergeant in charge of training for
my department, I've turned in my jack-boots and traffic car for a desk
and a dry-erase board. Highway scofflaws are safe from my privations
for now.

Tune in next week when Uncle Juan presents: How To Talk Your Way Out
Of A Statutory Rape Charge, or Who Knew They Were Growing Tits On
Twelve-Year-Olds Like That These Days (It Must Be The Hormones In
Chicken). Now get off my lap or prepare to receive a rogering.

---
juanrico*at*5100bac.net
"Forget those trivial inventions like fire,
the wheel, the bow and arrow, and the plow.
Man didn't become truly civilized until Alex
Bell uttered those immortal words, 'sh.t,
Watson, I spilled acid all over my balls.' "
    --John Varley, _Steel Beach_
Signature

Dan.

Rex B - 02 Jun 2006 16:17 GMT
> Fourth, won't really help, but I thought I'd put it out there, as it
> seems to be the most popular bit of urban legend: No, I do not have to
> show you the radar.

I have a bit of a problem with this one. Isn't it a basis of
constitutional law that a defendant has a right to examine the evidence
against him?   Does this not apply to misdemeanors?
Dean Dark - 02 Jun 2006 16:28 GMT
>> Fourth, won't really help, but I thought I'd put it out there, as it
>> seems to be the most popular bit of urban legend: No, I do not have to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>constitutional law that a defendant has a right to examine the evidence
>against him?   Does this not apply to misdemeanors?

In court, maybe you have that right.  For example, the police don't
have to show me the woman who says I raped her when they arrest me,
but she'd sure better be in court.
Signature

Dan.

Rex B - 02 Jun 2006 17:30 GMT
>>> Fourth, won't really help, but I thought I'd put it out there, as it
>>> seems to be the most popular bit of urban legend: No, I do not have to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> have to show me the woman who says I raped her when they arrest me,
> but she'd sure better be in court.

In a traffic stop, the evidence the cop is using to charge you exists
right then, and will be gone when he clears it.

I actually used a version of this to beat a ticket in court about 30 (!)
years ago.

I was traveling down a 2-lane road with a posted limit of 30. A cop was
traveling toward me, did a U-turn after passing, and stopped me after I
had turned right onto a larger highway. Told me I was doing 47 in a 30.
I asked to see the reading, and was told he had already cleared it. He
took my credentials and went back to hi patrol car.
  A few minutes later he came back, I signed the ticket, and then he
said "If you'd like to look at that reading, you can do that now".
Surprised, I walked back and sure enough, it was showing 47. I said "I
thought you said you'd cleared it?".  He responded " I was able to
recall it".  In fact, he had clocked traffic on the current road, which
was posted at 45 mph. I knew this because he had re-oriented the radar
antenna after he stopped me.
   In court, I confronted the cop with this. He stuttered and stammered
so that I almost felt sorry for him.  Of course I was found guilty,
fined $5 (!). I immediately gave notice of intent to appeal.
    Appeal court date was set for a few months later.  The day before
the date, I got a letter from the city stating that the case had been
dropped.
Dean Dark - 02 Jun 2006 17:37 GMT
>>>> Fourth, won't really help, but I thought I'd put it out there, as it
>>>> seems to be the most popular bit of urban legend: No, I do not have to
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>I actually used a version of this to beat a ticket in court about 30 (!)
>years ago.

Hey!  Don't shoot the messenger.

Juan Rico has been around (mostly the murkier parts of) Usenet for
years, and he's consistently been shown to know what he's talking
about.  There are always exceptions, YMMV, as ever, of course.
Signature

Dan.

Rex B - 02 Jun 2006 18:53 GMT
> Juan Rico has been around (mostly the murkier parts of) Usenet for
> years, and he's consistently been shown to know what he's talking
> about.  There are always exceptions, YMMV, as ever, of course.

I found it interesting. Does he have a website?
Dean Dark - 02 Jun 2006 19:17 GMT
>> Juan Rico has been around (mostly the murkier parts of) Usenet for
>> years, and he's consistently been shown to know what he's talking
>> about.  There are always exceptions, YMMV, as ever, of course.
>
>I found it interesting. Does he have a website?

Yes, but it isn't automotive-related.  E-mail me if you really want to
know what it is, lest I get flamed for being OT.
Signature

Dan.

Jeff Strickland - 02 Jun 2006 21:01 GMT
>I guess you guys don't drive on the I 95 corrador, if you aren't doing at
>least 80 you will get run over, or off the road, if not shot. Speeding
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Lesson? Buy the detector, and think like a cop.

I live along the I-15 cooridor leading into San Diego County, and I also
have to do 90 or die. I've been passed by the cops while doing 85, so I know
they tend ot be a bit on the lenient side on occasion. Clearly, I am not a
saint when it comes to observing traffic laws, but I've failed to attract
attention to myself by lifting off the Go Pedal when I am not on the
interstate. I think the OP hasn't got the descretion that I've got. He
suggested that he has gotten several tickets, and is looking for a way to
beat them or not get them in the first place. If one is prone to getting
tickets, then one must be prone to speeding in places where the cops are not
happy about it.

If this rationale is accurate, then it seems that slowing down is the
premier action to be taking. The secondary action would be to go out and buy
one of the multi-band radar detectors, the Valentine 1 was suggested in
another post, that costs somewhere in the $400 range.
Dean Dark - 02 Jun 2006 22:52 GMT
>If this rationale is accurate, then it seems that slowing down is the
>premier action to be taking. The secondary action would be to go out and buy
>one of the multi-band radar detectors, the Valentine 1 was suggested in
>another post, that costs somewhere in the $400 range.

I bought the Escort Solo S2 a year or two ago to replace an older
Passport and the difference is night and day.  It's saved my a.s many
times over and has paid for itself I don't know how many times.
Signature

Dan.

Tom K. - 04 Jun 2006 01:10 GMT
> I bought the Escort Solo S2 a year or two ago to replace an older
> Passport and the difference is night and day.  It's saved my a.s many
> times over and has paid for itself I don't know how many times.

I believe the current Solo costs $329.  While my original and S2 Solos have
saved me at least 3 times that amount over the years, a good detector works
well when you have a keen awareness of your surroundings (other traffic,
likely location of police, usual signals from other sources, etc.)

Tom K.
Bacon - 03 Jun 2006 15:53 GMT
> I live along the I-15 cooridor leading into San Diego County, and I also
> have to do 90 or die. I've been passed by the cops while doing 85, so I know
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> one of the multi-band radar detectors, the Valentine 1 was suggested in
> another post, that costs somewhere in the $400 range.

I think this is true.  I've received all the tickets since I got the
330 in December.  Like I said earlier, I've owned Audis for several
years and am like a child with a toy in the BMW.  Driving fast all the
time is laughably risky, from a ticket and safety perspective.  I like
all the comments on zones and areas to watch out for and spotting cops.
Last road I was pulled over the cop used radar so must have been in
plain site but I didn't even notice him.  So it's pick and choose
carefully your situations to punch it up into the 90's, but be
rational.  I will tell you though, with no consequences of points or
insurance rate increases due to "fixing" in Missouri it sure makes that
difficult.
mcquarrie - 03 Jun 2006 17:22 GMT
> I've gotten 4 tickets in the last 6 months.  Luckily I'm in Missouri
> where your lawyer buddy "fixes" them.  I've always thought radar
> detectors were left over from the 70's and all the different bands and
> instant on stuff cops use makes them ineffective.  But I'm getting
> desperate.

The OP asked "Are radar detectors useless?". The replies seem to be
more focused on dealing with tickets and fines and law enforcememt and
and and.

NOT counting people who sell radar detectors, who has the informed
opinions about whether radar detectors work? I wish Consumer Reports
would test them...
Jeff Strickland - 03 Jun 2006 17:47 GMT
>> I've gotten 4 tickets in the last 6 months.  Luckily I'm in Missouri
>> where your lawyer buddy "fixes" them.  I've always thought radar
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> opinions about whether radar detectors work? I wish Consumer Reports
> would test them...

CR does test them, and they like the Valentine One. It is on the pricey
side, but it seems to work very well.

I haven't tried, but I would suppose that one could locate test reports on
the 'net. The key, as I understand it, is to buy a detector that can see all
of the various bands that the cops are known to use. All devices on the
cop's side MUST transmit a signal that you must be able to receive in time
to adjust your behavior before the cops get a lock on your enthusiastic
driving style.

HINT
When the cop is hiding where he can observe you driving away from him, your
adjustment of speed by vigorous application of the brake pedal -- as
evidenced by the brake lights -- is probably more of an admission of guilt
than recognition that you need to knuckle under and get with the program.
mcquarrie - 04 Jun 2006 19:51 GMT
> >> I've gotten 4 tickets in the last 6 months.  Luckily I'm in Missouri
> >> where your lawyer buddy "fixes" them.  I've always thought radar
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> evidenced by the brake lights -- is probably more of an admission of guilt
> than recognition that you need to knuckle under and get with the program.
mcquarrie - 04 Jun 2006 19:55 GMT
What I meant to say was...

> > CR does test them, and they like the Valentine One. It is on the pricey
> > side, but it seems to work very well.

I think you are mistaken, sir. According to the Consumer Reports
website I subscribe to, they have never tested radar detectors;

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/customer-service/helpfaqs-no-reports-availabl
e/index.htm?resultPageIndex=1&resultIndex=8&searchTerm=radar


Maybe you can post details of the test which "liked" the Valentine 1?
Jeff Strickland - 04 Jun 2006 20:32 GMT
> What I meant to say was...
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Maybe you can post details of the test which "liked" the Valentine 1?

Sorry, no details. I just thought I remember reading a report from them.
Assuming I really did read the report, it must have been done by another
group. Sorry if I have misinformed the group.
Tom K. - 04 Jun 2006 21:02 GMT
>> What I meant to say was...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Assuming I really did read the report, it must have been done by another
> group. Sorry if I have misinformed the group.

IIRC, either (or both) Car & Driver and/or Road & Track magazines did tests
a while back and gave top ratings to the Valentine.  That's probably what
Jeff was thinking of.

Tom K.
XrayMD@doctor.com - 05 Jun 2006 00:55 GMT
I have used many models of radar detector over the past 20 years and my
favorite for the last 14 or 15 has been the Valentine1 (and no I don't work
for them and neither does anyone in my family, etc.)

As to do they work...of course they work.  What you may be referring to is
radar jammers.  The vast majority of radar jammers out there are considered
"passive" jammers that purport to scramble the radar signal somehow and send
back a scrambled signal to the police radar gun.  These DO NOT work...don't
waste your money.  Defeating radar would require an "active" jammer and you
can find some of these, BUT, they are quite illegal.

There are also laser jammers that work well.  Jammers that have an actual
laser tranducer (eg Lidatek) work very well, but the ones that reky on LED's
do not work as well, if at all in some cases.  I can tell you that my
Lidatek system has saved me from getting tickets about 8 or 10 times since I
ourchased the system.  It has more than paid for itself when you consider
the fine of the ticket + increased insurance fees that would have occured
with getting a ticket.

As far as the Valentine1, what their advertisement says is true.  Once you
use the V1 and get used to the directional arrows, you won't want to use any
other detector.  It shows you not only how many signals it's receiving, but
whether they are coming from in front, behind or to the side of you.  This
info is invaluable in figuring out what's going on.  As with any system, it
does require some thought on the driver's part to distinguish false from
real alerts.  Things like door openers in grocery stores can give a strong
signal, but you will know how many signals the unit is receiving and also
what radar band they are.  This has saved me.  I know that on a certain road
I drive frequently, the openers at the grocery store give off 4 radar
signals in the X band.  One day I'm driving and the detector goes off as
usual, with the arrows telling me the signal(s) is coming from up ahead.
But, I the "bogey" counter tells me that there are 5 signals this morning
AND the audio warning gives me indication that a Ka band signal is present.
Because this isn't usual for this spot, I slow down considerably and as I
drive past, I see a police car with radar hiding in the parking lot.  He
knew that most detectors wouldn't let the driver know there was anything
there but the door openers.

I won't drive without one.
Mike Patterson - 03 Jun 2006 18:36 GMT
>I've gotten 4 tickets in the last 6 months.  Luckily I'm in Missouri
>where your lawyer buddy "fixes" them.  I've always thought radar
>detectors were left over from the 70's and all the different bands and
>instant on stuff cops use makes them ineffective.  But I'm getting
>desperate.

I just KNOW that responding to this is gonna jinx me, but...
I'm finding that as I get older I'm getting fewer and fewer tickets.

Gave it some thought last month and decided there are a number of
factors involved:

A radar detector (at least in my case) causes you to stop using your
senses and intuition as you rely on the box to do your thinking for
you.

Develop the habit of watching traffic very carefully - look for brake
lights ahead of you and people flashing their high-beams. This is not
only safe for your wallet, it's better for your cardiovascular system,
in that you are likely to be able to use it longer.

Look for cars/people/objects on overpasses. Often means Bad News.

Ditto small aircraft/helcopters lazing along the line of the highway.
VASCAR will bust you and no radar detector in the world can prevent
it. Been there myself, in the SE Missouri switchbacks.

Don't drive fast for long periods, keep it to short bursts where you
can see far ahead and there is little/no traffic. (This may not apply
out West.)

Follow your instincts - if you have a nagging feeling, it may be your
subconscious noticing things your forebrain missed.

Never go faster than 3-4 mph over the limit in urban/suburban areas.
It just isn't worth it. Save your lead foot for the open highway.

Keep a lid on it late at night. Police know that there is a +60%
chance that virtually ANYONE they pull over after midnight has had a
couple of drinks, so that is a major hunting time for them.
Unfortunately that's also the time when you feel like kicking up your
heels. Resist the urge.

HTH
Mike
Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
"I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." - Lily Tomlin
Bacon - 03 Jun 2006 21:42 GMT
>>I've gotten 4 tickets in the last 6 months.  Luckily I'm in Missouri
>>where your lawyer buddy "fixes" them.  I've always thought radar
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
>"I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." - Lily Tomlin

Luckily I quit drinking well before I got the 330.  Otherwise I'd be
in a lot more trouble than just speeding.  The jinx is a nasty thing.
I probably hadn't had a ticket in 10 years before this wave.  I like
the posts with suggestions on being more alert and knowing the ripe
situations to slow down.  I don't like the look of a radar detector
suction cupped to the windshield, I don't think the ladies dig it.
Jeff Strickland - 04 Jun 2006 23:10 GMT
> Luckily I quit drinking well before I got the 330.  Otherwise I'd be
> in a lot more trouble than just speeding.  The jinx is a nasty thing.
> I probably hadn't had a ticket in 10 years before this wave.  I like
> the posts with suggestions on being more alert and knowing the ripe
> situations to slow down.  I don't like the look of a radar detector
> suction cupped to the windshield, I don't think the ladies dig it.

Dude, the chicks dig it. They absolutely cream their jeans at the idea of
speeding wrecklessly down the road without a care of who might appear from
the side.

Get the radar detector, any of them, and the little suction cup holder
thingies, and the chicks will flock to your car.
Dean Dark - 04 Jun 2006 23:34 GMT
>Dude, the chicks dig it. They absolutely cream their jeans at the idea of
>speeding wrecklessly down the road without a care of who might appear from

I'd far sooner speed wrecklessly than recklessly, but will the chicks
dig it as much?
Signature

Dan.

Jeff Strickland - 05 Jun 2006 14:01 GMT
>>Dude, the chicks dig it. They absolutely cream their jeans at the idea of
>>speeding wrecklessly down the road without a care of who might appear from
>
> I'd far sooner speed wrecklessly than recklessly, but will the chicks
> dig it as much?

Good point. I'm not sure, but they like the little suction cup holders for
the radar detector.

> Dan.
Mark D - 05 Jun 2006 17:14 GMT
> I've gotten 4 tickets in the last 6 months.  Luckily I'm in Missouri
> where your lawyer buddy "fixes" them.  I've always thought radar
> detectors were left over from the 70's and all the different bands and
> instant on stuff cops use makes them ineffective.  But I'm getting
> desperate.

In Pennsylvania where I haven't seen any use of laser yet, and liberal use
of Instant On, a good detector goes the distance!

My buddy has the Escort Passport X2 or whatever (like $300) and I have the
Beltronics Vector 995.  Both of these are equally good detectors, and if
you have active police, it's WORTH THE MONEY!  

I used to use cheap $100 detectors.  And they work.  They do, but they
work so poorly they are useless.  The sensitivity is really really low and
they false a lot.  Here's a situation for you.

I was traveling down in North Carolina and I got a ticket with rolling
radar (something I'm not used to in PA) for 96 in a 55 (back country
road).  I went before the DA and got it reduced to sub $100 and no points.
I was fully expecting like a $500 ticket and have had a ticket fund for
some time.  Since I didn't get raped, I decided to spend hard cash on one
of the best radar detectors money can buy.  Now if you know anything
about NC, you'll know even big box stores are far and few between near
the vacation spots. So I had to buy this $80 Cobra unit at walmart.  This
thing was spiffy and had a lot of cool features, but it didn't seem to be
very sensitive AT ALL.  A permanent sign installation would only tweak 2
bars out of like 8!  I returned it promptly when I got home and bought the
Beltronics unit.  OH MY GOD. I had NO IDEA! There's a very VERY serious
difference between  the low end units and hte high end units.

Take this for example.  A low end unit might get a fixed radar
installation (sign, etc) from a couple hundred feet away.  The beltronics
will get it for MILES away, even over hills!  cops like to use instant on
anymore.  This is guaranteed death for the low sensitivity units, but even
miles away when there's no cars immediately in front of me, I catch the
cop poking at other people.  This unit has saved me SO MANY TIMES where
"paying attention" just wouldn't have worked.  Cops hiding behind
barriers, unmarked foreign cars, not enough traffic to "look for brake
lights", etc

Now, you have to know how to use the detector, you have to pick out the
difference between falses and not, and most importantly you have to OBEY
the detector.  Once you have it and it falses sometimes you get into the
habit of wanting to ignore it.  But when you see that low strength K band
alert, that seems random, THAT IS IT, THAT is when you want to slow down.
And sometimes you look like a fool dropping down slower than everyone
else, right after you just made a fuss about the guy lagging in the left
lane, but sometimes you'll be the one laughing home without a ticket.

Ethics of detectors aside, people should realize that this is your bottom
line.  It's your money, and it's your insurance rating.  Nobody is going
to protect you but you, so by all means, get an expensive AMERICAN MADE
detector.  I know where I'm from, most of the accidents are caused by:

Drunk people, slowbies being so bored they don't even pay attention when
merging, people who simply can't handle an emergency situation (poor
training), and vehicles which really suck (Chevy Impala v6 spins almost
immediately on emergency braking)...  the common theme that i see is that
all of these very dangerous drivers are driving near the speed limit.  In
my opinion the police are lazy because of the radar guns and don't look
for real issues.

My opinion is that someone who is a verifiably good driver, in an
excellent well maintained vehicle with performance tires and brakes (an M3
for instance), who is paying close attention to the road which is NOT
filled full of traffic should be exempt from the current speed laws, but
since that's not going to happen due to the soccer moms having fits, the
radar detector is the best defense.  

You know if everyone else did their jobs as well as speed enforcement
cops, this world might not suck so much.

Thanks,
Mark
Bacon - 05 Jun 2006 17:28 GMT
> > I've gotten 4 tickets in the last 6 months.  Luckily I'm in Missouri
> > where your lawyer buddy "fixes" them.  I've always thought radar
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
> Thanks,
> Mark

A very good read, thanks Mark.
 
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