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Car Forum / BMW Cars / August 2006Brakes too good.
Just aquired an E39 to replace my E34. One difference that is immediately apparent, is the lightness of the brakes. So little pressure is required to brake, that unless I brace myself with my left foot, I slide forward in the seat. This, for just normal slowing down braking. Not hard braking. Is this normal for an E39? The brakes are fine orherwise. Quite progressive and smooth, with no pulling. I'm not worried about, but the handbrake doesn't seen too good either, but that might be because it's an auto and hasn't been used enough to keep the drums and linkage in good condition. Mike. > I'm not worried about, but the handbrake doesn't seen too good either, but > that might be because it's an auto and hasn't been used enough to keep the > drums and linkage in good condition. I have had 2 E39s and the handbrake on my first one was very poor. Didn't seem to be anything that could be done to improve its performance.  Signaturejeremy ['01 BMW 530iA SE Touring] You are not required to mash the pedals to the floor. It's okay to lightly push them. The hand brake is intended to keep a stationary car it rest, it is not intended to bring a moving car to a halt. Yes, it can do that when called upon, but that is not its job, and its failure to do that as well as the main brakes should not be considered a fault. For one thing, the brake pads for the parking brake have less than half of the mechanical advantage as the main brakes -- they are considerably smaller in surface area, and they haven't the force (leverage) aplied that the main brakes have. For another thing, they call it a Parking Brake for a reason. > Just aquired an E39 to replace my E34. > One difference that is immediately apparent, is the lightness of the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > drums and linkage in good condition. > Mike. > You are not required to mash the pedals to the floor. It's okay to lightly > push them. I did say for normal slowing down in my post. IOW when lightly braking, the pressure required on the pedal is not enough to hold me in the seat. > The hand brake is intended to keep a stationary car it rest, it is not > intended to bring a moving car to a halt. Yes, it can do that when called [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > they haven't the force (leverage) aplied that the main brakes have. For > another thing, they call it a Parking Brake for a reason. I do know what a handbrake or parking brake should be capable of. My drive has a slight slope. Unless I really heave on it, the car will still roll. My wife would never be able to pull it on enough. Mike. >> You are not required to mash the pedals to the floor. It's okay to >> lightly push them. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > still roll. My wife would never be able to pull it on enough. > Mike. It can be adjusted. The spec on my 3 series is that the brake should engagek on the 4th click of the ratchet mechanism. The adjustment is a bit tedious to accomplish because the left and right side are adjusted independently of each other. One can be adjusted properly, and the other one still be too loose. >>> You are not required to mash the pedals to the floor. It's okay to >>> lightly push them. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > independently of each other. One can be adjusted properly, and the other > one still be too loose. That only adjusts the lever position, and whilst an adjustment may achieve a slightly better machanical advantage. It will not turn a poor handbrake into a good one. The problem with mine is undoubtedly in the hubs, or maybe stiffness in the linkage etc, but as I said. I'm not worried about it. I've no doubt I can easily improve them to an acceptable level. Mike. >>>> You are not required to mash the pedals to the floor. It's okay to >>>> lightly push them. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > a slightly better machanical advantage. It will not turn a poor handbrake > into a good one. That's true, if only one brake is working. Having said that, two working brakes is not twice as good as one. Two working brakes are better than one marginal brake though. > >> You are not required to mash the pedals to the floor. It's okay to > >> lightly push them. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > each other. One can be adjusted properly, and the other one still be too > loose. IM(limited)E adjusting it will make littel difference to the effectiveness. I would periodically (now and again) engage the handbrake whilst driving (slowly and for a few seconds only) - I think someone sujggested that it might rought things up (though I'd have thought smooth things down!) and it may have made a minor improvement. But on the whole I would describe it as woeful (on that 1997 model). My previous comments on this matter: http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.autos.bmw/browse_frm/thread/3d93181 a13ccf93a/acf0f58d023f5d36?lnk=st&q=jeremy+523i+brake&rnum=1 #acf0f58d023f5d36 Signaturejeremy ['01 BMW 530iA SE Touring] > I did say for normal slowing down in my post. > IOW when lightly braking, the pressure required on the pedal is not > enough to hold me in the seat. You are not supposed to hold yourself in your seat with foot pressure on the brakes. Are you wearing teflon pants or something? Signature-Fred W >> I did say for normal slowing down in my post. >> IOW when lightly braking, the pressure required on the pedal is not >> enough to hold me in the seat. > > You are not supposed to hold yourself in your seat with foot pressure on > the brakes. Of course you are. Otherwise how would you stop yourself sliding forward in the seat under heavy braking. It should be relative. Light or heavy braking should need enough pressure on the pedal to avoid sliding forwards. I'm not a newbie to driving. I've been driving for decades. I think I know by now what is acceptable as far as a foot brake is concerned, and as it stands, the foot brake on my car is too sensitive. My quesstion was, whether that is normal for the E39. Mike. > >> IOW when lightly braking, the pressure required on the pedal is not > >> enough to hold me in the seat. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Of course you are. Otherwise how would you stop yourself sliding forward in > the seat under heavy braking. By either using the 'dead pedal' to brace with your other foot or by depending on your seat/shoulder belt to hold you in place. Using the brake pedal to keep yourself from sliding forward in the seat is ludicrous. It sounds as if you have your seat bottom cushion tilted forward. > I'm not a newbie to driving. I've been driving for decades. In which case I suppose I'm glad we're separated by an ocean. > I think I know > by now what is acceptable as far as a foot brake is concerned, and as it > stands, the foot brake on my car is too sensitive. Then put the heel of your brake foot on the floor and use it for leverage and to modulate the pressure. -- C.R. Krieger >> >> IOW when lightly braking, the pressure required on the pedal is not >> >> enough to hold me in the seat. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > By either using the 'dead pedal' to brace with your other foot or by > depending on your seat/shoulder belt to hold you in place. Shouldn't be necessary. For comfort it's far better that the pressure exerted on the pedal is more or less the same as the pressure required to hold you in the seat. Of course the other foot is used as well, but it should not be needed for just light slowing down down braking. Using the > brake pedal to keep yourself from sliding forward in the seat is > ludicrous. It sounds as if you have your seat bottom cushion tilted > forward. Do you think that I don't know how to adjust a seat? >> I'm not a newbie to driving. I've been driving for decades. > > In which case I suppose I'm glad we're separated by an ocean. Make all the snide comments you like, but you have no idea of whether I'm good or bad driver. My insurance Co thinks I'm good enough for maximum NCB though, after 16 years of claim and conviction free motoring. >> I think I know >> by now what is acceptable as far as a foot brake is concerned, and as it >> stands, the foot brake on my car is too sensitive. > > Then put the heel of your brake foot on the floor and use it for > leverage and to modulate the pressure. Don't be ridiculous. If the ball of your foot is on the pedal, unless you have enormous feet, your heel will be off the floor. Mike. >>> >> IOW when lightly braking, the pressure required on the pedal is not >>> >> enough to hold me in the seat. [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > have enormous feet, your heel will be off the floor. > Mike. My heel is on the floor while I work the brake pedal. I completely do not get what your problem is, unless you have the back of the seat higher than the front, and you slide downhill while stopping. Maybe the seats are too slippery from the crap they smear on them at the Detail Shop. Use the foot rest under your left foot to hold you back against the seat while you brake. Whatever the problem is, it isn't the brakes. > I completely do not get what your problem is, unless you have the back of > the seat higher than the front, and you slide downhill while stopping. > > Maybe the seats are too slippery from the crap they smear on them at the > Detail Shop. None of the above applies. > Use the foot rest under your left foot to hold you back against the seat > while you brake. Whatever the problem is, it isn't the brakes. You obviously don't believe there is an optimum for brake pedal pressure. That brakes can be too light or too heavy for comfort. In which case I understand your inability to understand what I mean when I say I believe the brakes are too light for comfort. Mike. > You obviously don't believe there is an optimum for brake pedal > pressure. That brakes can be too light or too heavy for comfort. In > which case I understand your inability to understand what I mean when I > say I believe the brakes are too light for comfort. FWIW I didn't notice any difference in pedal pressure when changing from my E34 525 auto. I'd call the brakes on my E39 'perfectly weighted' ;-) Signature*Can fat people go skinny-dipping? Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> You obviously don't believe there is an optimum for brake pedal >> pressure. That brakes can be too light or too heavy for comfort. In [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > FWIW I didn't notice any difference in pedal pressure when changing from > my E34 525 auto. I'd call the brakes on my E39 'perfectly weighted' ;-) You seem to be the only one who knows what I'm on about. :-) I noticed yesterday when swapping the wheels, that all the discs could do with being replaced. Not very badly worn, but a little too much lipping for me. Maybe once they are replaced with new pads all round, the brakes will feel better, and maybe.I can improve the h/brake at the same time. Mike. > You obviously don't believe there is an optimum for brake pedal > pressure. That brakes can be too light or too heavy for comfort. In > which case I understand your inability to understand what I mean when I > say I believe the brakes are too light for comfort. Getting to the main point above, what are you using for pads and rotors? I have found that there can be a great deal of variation depending on what kind of rotors and pads are installed. Some tend to be much grabbier than others... Signature-Fred W > >> > You are not supposed to hold yourself in your seat with foot pressure > >> > on the brakes. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > exerted on the pedal is more or less the same as the pressure required to > hold you in the seat. Do you want comfort or effective braking? Wait; let me guess ... you have an automatic, don't you? > Of course the other foot is used as well, but it > should not be needed for just light slowing down down braking. Then there should be no problem. Get it out from under your right knee and put it where it should be. > Using the > > brake pedal to keep yourself from sliding forward in the seat is > > ludicrous. It sounds as if you have your seat bottom cushion tilted > > forward. > > Do you think that I don't know how to adjust a seat? It is not outside the realm of possibility. As a BMW club driving instructor, I see some truly ridiculous seating positions. > >> I'm not a newbie to driving. I've been driving for decades. > > > > In which case I suppose I'm glad we're separated by an ocean. > > Make all the snide comments you like, It's not snide. That implies malice. I intend no malice. That makes it glib. > but you have no idea of whether I'm > good or bad driver. My insurance Co thinks I'm good enough for maximum NCB > though, after 16 years of claim and conviction free motoring. Insurance companies have no clue whether you're a good driver. They only know whether you've hit anything lately - or reported what you did hit to them. There are some stunningly bad drivers who have managed to avoid such incidents. [Apparently, there is a God.] During most of the 16 years to which you refer, I've been teaching others how to drive at high speeds as well as in competition. I resolve problems like yours all the time. Of course, you need to get over blaming it all on the car and accept that your technique might need some changing. > > Then put the heel of your brake foot on the floor and use it for > > leverage and to modulate the pressure. > > Don't be ridiculous. If the ball of your foot is on the pedal, unless you > have enormous feet, your heel will be off the floor. If you are trying to modulate an overboosted brake with light pressure, you don't want to use the ball of your foot. You want to use the toe - with your heel braced on the floor. -- C.R. Krieger (Been there; done that) Mike G wrote: > > Mike G wrote: > >> > You are not supposed to hold yourself in your seat with foot pressure > >> > on the brakes. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > exerted on the pedal is more or less the same as the pressure required to > hold you in the seat. Do you want comfort or effective braking? Wait; let me guess ... you have an automatic, don't you? What has being an automatic got to do with whether or not I'm comfortable with the braking. I've also got a Celica GT4 turbo, or Alltrack as they call them in the US. The weighting on it's brakes is just about right compared to the E39, but if you refer to my OP you might notice I wrote that apart from the lightness of them, the brakes were fine. > Of course the other foot is used as well, but it > should not be needed for just light slowing down down braking. Then there should be no problem. Get it out from under your right knee and put it where it should be. Again. Read my OP. > Using the > > brake pedal to keep yourself from sliding forward in the seat is > > ludicrous. It sounds as if you have your seat bottom cushion tilted > > forward. > > Do you think that I don't know how to adjust a seat? It is not outside the realm of possibility. As a BMW club driving instructor, I see some truly ridiculous seating positions. > >> I'm not a newbie to driving. I've been driving for decades. > > > > In which case I suppose I'm glad we're separated by an ocean. > > Make all the snide comments you like, It's not snide. That implies malice. I intend no malice. That makes it glib. I suggest you look up the meaning of snide. Insinuating, or slyly derogatory. Your comment qualifies on both counts. > but you have no idea of whether I'm > good or bad driver. My insurance Co thinks I'm good enough for maximum NCB > though, after 16 years of claim and conviction free motoring. Insurance companies have no clue whether you're a good driver. They only know whether you've hit anything lately - or reported what you did hit to them. There are some stunningly bad drivers who have managed to avoid such incidents. Agreed. But my point remains. You're making an assumption based on no evidence whatsover of my competence on the road. I have no problem with driving the car. Look again at my OP. [Apparently, there is a God.] During most of the 16 years to which you refer, I've been teaching others how to drive at high speeds as well as in competition. I resolve problems like yours all the time. Of course, you need to get over blaming it all on the car and accept that your technique might need some changing. That comment is patronising to say the least. My problem as you put it, does not interfere with my ability to drive the car. If I think the brakes are too light, that is an opinion. They are light compared to other cars I've owned or driven, and lighter than I'd prefer. How can anyone dispute someones personal preferences? They might have a different opinion, but does that mean it's better? As far as the individual is concerned? I would suggest that all drivers have what they consider to be ideal weighting for brakes and steering. Steering feel, feedback etc. In that respect I'm no different to anyone else. If you are trying to modulate an overboosted brake with light pressure, you don't want to use the ball of your foot. You want to use the toe - with your heel braced on the floor. All this started with a simple question, basically just asking if a light brake was normal for an E39. So far no one has answered it. Instead I have had replies telling me to use my left foot, which I do anyway, whatever car I'm driving, and others inferring I don't know how to adjust the seat, or drive properly. Mike. Instead of bitching back and forth here, Change your disks and pads for some HIGH quality OEM or similar equipment AND FLUSH the system properly..... it could be old fluid that is half cooked, has air or whatever... I agree with E28Guy, small changes to your position of seat or feet could also be the issue... he has the proper experience to offer advice... I would listen. > Mike G wrote: >> > Mike G wrote: [quoted text clipped - 98 lines] > or drive properly. > Mike. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > Instead of bitching back and forth here, Change your disks and pads for > some HIGH quality OEM or similar equipment AND FLUSH the system > properly..... it could be old fluid that is half cooked, has air or > whatever... I'm not bitching, I just don't like being patronised by those replying to unasked questions, without answering the question that was asked. And if you were following the thread, you'd have noticed that I do intend to replace the discs and pads all round. > I agree with E28Guy, small changes to your position of seat or feet could > also be the issue... Gordon Bennet!.How will any of that alter the pedal weighting? They are very light compared to an E34 which I also own. he has the proper experience to offer advice... I would > listen. When he tells me something I don't already know, I will. Anyway, despite all the obvious advice about a good seating position and the use of my left foot for support, bla, bla etc, one poster has answered my question. Which is that the weighting on E39 brakes, should be similar to the weighting of the brakes on my E34. Hopefully when I fit new discs and pads all round, that will indeed be the case. And if you're not going to answer the points I made, you might at least snip them from your reply. Mike. > I'm not bitching, I just don't like being patronised by those replying to > unasked questions, without answering the question that was asked. > And if you were following the thread, you'd have noticed that I do intend to > replace the discs and pads all round. I'm afraid that is one of the risks you run when posting to usenet. Just ignore what offends you. Signaturejeremy ['01 BMW 530iA SE Touring] >> I agree with E28Guy, small changes to your position of seat or feet >> could also be the issue... > > Gordon Bennet!.How will any of that alter the pedal weighting? Maybe it will help keep you a.s in the seat where it belongs instead of sliding forward onto the brake pedal? Signature-Fred W >>> I agree with E28Guy, small changes to your position of seat or feet >>> could also be the issue... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Maybe it will help keep you a.s in the seat where it belongs instead of > sliding forward onto the brake pedal? Why do you find it so difficult to understand that all I wanted was an answer to whether a lightly weighted brake pedal was common with E39's. I didn't need or want advice on how to stay in the seat. If you read my OP, you might notice :- Quote. "unless I brace myself with my left foot, I slide forward in the seat" Unnquote. So why do you and others feel the need to advise me to do something I'm already doing? Mike. >Why do you find it so difficult to understand that all I wanted was an >answer to whether a lightly weighted brake pedal was common with E39's. >I didn't need or want advice on how to stay in the seat. Maybe it's because you gave your question a really stupid title -- "Brakes Too Good"? -- Larry >>Why do you find it so difficult to understand that all I wanted was an >>answer to whether a lightly weighted brake pedal was common with E39's. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Too > Good"? I'll give you that. Maybe it was a bit ambiguous, but there was no ambiguity in the body of my post. That was clear enough. Mike > All this started with a simple question, basically just asking if a > light brake was normal for an E39. So far no one has answered it. Nonsense. Several E39 owners have told you that yes, this car has powerful brakes. Several others (including me) have said you can make them less so with a different choice of rotors and pads. > Instead I have had replies telling me to use my left foot, which I do > anyway, whatever car I'm driving, and others inferring I don't know how > to adjust the seat, or drive properly. And you have ignored all of these suggestions as well as the others above, no doubt. They are all constructive comments. Signature-Fred W >> All this started with a simple question, basically just asking if a light >> brake was normal for an E39. So far no one has answered it. > > Nonsense. Several E39 owners have told you that yes, this car has > powerful brakes. Really. Tell me where? And since when has the power of brakes been related to pedal weighting? Several others (including me) have said you can make > them less so with a different choice of rotors and pads. Several? And if you care to read my reply to Dave Plowman, you'll see I said I intended to replace all the discs and pads, 'before' it was suggested by you or anyone else. Do you actually read previous replies in a thread before you post? >> Instead I have had replies telling me to use my left foot, which I do >> anyway, whatever car I'm driving, and others inferring I don't know how >> to adjust the seat, or drive properly. > > And you have ignored all of these suggestions as well as the others above, > no doubt. They are all constructive comments. Hardly constructive if the recipient is already doing, or has done, what has been suggested. It was all there to be read in my earlier posts. Mike. >>> All this started with a simple question, basically just asking if a >>> light brake was normal for an E39. So far no one has answered it. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > It was all there to be read in my earlier posts. > Mike. I've got a great idea for you Mike. f.ck off and die. Signature-Fred W >>>> All this started with a simple question, basically just asking if a >>>> light brake was normal for an E39. So far no one has answered it. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > I've got a great idea for you Mike. f.ck off and die. The last refuge of those who run out of logical argument. Abuse. And if you do decide to reply to any of my future posts, please make sure you understand them first. There's a good fellow. Have a nice day. Mike. >>>>> All this started with a simple question, basically just asking if a >>>>> light brake was normal for an E39. So far no one has answered it. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >Have a nice day. >Mike. Fred's a bit into the malt tonight. I wonder if will introduce "Nazi" into the conversation later in the evening. That should end the thread... DAS For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- [...] > Fred's a bit into the malt tonight. > > All this started with a simple question, basically just asking if a > > light brake was normal for an E39. So far no one has answered it. > Nonsense. Several E39 owners have told you that yes, this car has > powerful brakes. Several others (including me) have said you can make > them less so with a different choice of rotors and pads. I swapped from an E34 six to an E39 six - same as Mike - and I can't say I noticed any difference. Both cars were on OEM discs and pads, though. Signature*Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > > All this started with a simple question, basically just asking if a > > light brake was normal for an E39. So far no one has answered it. > Nonsense. Several E39 owners have told you that yes, this car has > powerful brakes. How light the pedal is at normal speeds has little to do with how powerful the brakes are - I had a Vauxhall with servo drums which had stupidly light brakes which faded to nothing if you tried to stop from speed. Signature*Aim Low, Reach Your Goals, Avoid Disappointment * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >>>>IOW when lightly braking, the pressure required on the pedal is not >>>>enough to hold me in the seat. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > -- > C.R. Krieger Thanks. I weas going to say that but decided I would be wasting my breath on such an experienced driver... ;-) Signature-Fred W >> In which case I suppose I'm glad we're separated by an ocean. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Thanks. I weas going to say that but decided I would be wasting my breath > on such an experienced driver... ;-) Not at all. We can all learn from others, but I object to snide patronising comments from those who have no idea of my driving experience. Apparently some posters can't accept that others might have a different opinion, and feel the need to denigrate them in some way. Mike. > The hand brake is intended to keep a stationary car it rest, it is not > intended to bring a moving car to a halt. Yes, it can do that when > called upon, No it can't. Not if the car is left in drive. > but that is not its job, and its failure to do that as > well as the main brakes should not be considered a fault. For one > thing, the brake pads for the parking brake have less than half of the > mechanical advantage as the main brakes -- they are considerably > smaller in surface area, and they haven't the force (leverage) aplied > that the main brakes have. That's total bollocks. ;-) The E39 like most BMWs for years has a drum brake within the rear disk for the handbrake, and the friction area is many times that of the rear pads. > For another thing, they call it a Parking Brake for a reason. Hand brake or parking brake makes no difference - it's pathetic. Signature*Being healthy is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> The hand brake is intended to keep a stationary car it rest, it is not >> intended to bring a moving car to a halt. Yes, it can do that when [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > brake within the rear disk for the handbrake, and the friction area is > many times that of the rear pads. On my car, the hand brake pads are very small. The braking force they can apply is much less than the main brakes. >> For another thing, they call it a Parking Brake for a reason. > > Hand brake or parking brake makes no difference - it's pathetic. Yes Dave, we've had this discussion before. > > That's total bollocks. ;-) The E39 like most BMWs for years has a drum > > brake within the rear disk for the handbrake, and the friction area is > > many times that of the rear pads. > On my car, the hand brake pads are very small. The braking force they > can apply is much less than the main brakes. Which BMW has a caliper hand brake? But no matter - this type is usually very good, and far better than the E39 drum in disc type. As is the combined type where the pads are shared. Signature*Strip mining prevents forest fires. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> > That's total bollocks. ;-) The E39 like most BMWs for years has a drum >> > brake within the rear disk for the handbrake, and the friction area is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Which BMW has a caliper hand brake? None that I know of, but I never said there was such a thing. What I said was that the parking brake "pads" (shoes really, but you knew that already) were smaller than main brake pads. I also said the braking force that is applied is much less than the main brakes. On my 3 Series car(s), the parking brake pads (or shoes if you prefer) are about half the size of the main brakes. They are both narrower and shorter than the main brakes. > >> On my car, the hand brake pads are very small. The braking force they > >> can apply is much less than the main brakes. > > > > Which BMW has a caliper hand brake? > None that I know of, but I never said there was such a thing. What I > said was that the parking brake "pads" (shoes really, but you knew that > already) were smaller than main brake pads. I also said the braking > force that is applied is much less than the main brakes. > On my 3 Series car(s), the parking brake pads (or shoes if you prefer) > are about half the size of the main brakes. They are both narrower and > shorter than the main brakes. I'd suggest you have another look. Signature*24 hours in a day ... 24 beers in a case ... coincidence? * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> >> On my car, the hand brake pads are very small. The braking force they >> >> can apply is much less than the main brakes. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > I'd suggest you have another look. And they are closer to the axle (center of the circle), so they require greater force to accomplish the same work. > > I'd suggest you have another look. > And they are closer to the axle (center of the circle), so they require > greater force to accomplish the same work. A drum brake of that diameter is perfectly capable of working well as a hand brake. And does on other models. But not the E39. As Mike G says the same size brake works ok on an E34 - and you imply on a 3 Series. FWIW I've driven other examples of the E39 and they're as bad. It is hopeless for hill starts on a manual. I will be changing all the discs and pads on my E39 shortly and may investigate further, but when I first got the car I checked it thoroughly and adjusted it correctly - which it wasn't as supplied by a main dealer, with a stuck adjuster in one drum and the cables set incorrectly. Just to confirm how poor it is if you're facing downwards on a slight hill and still in drive it won't hold the car stationary. Signature*A hangover is the wrath of grapes. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >>> > That's total bollocks. ;-) The E39 like most BMWs for years has a drum >>> > brake within the rear disk for the handbrake, and the friction area is [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > about half the size of the main brakes. They are both narrower and shorter > than the main brakes. The main brakes use pads. How can the the linings in the handbrake drums be shorter? Narrower certainly, but I'd guess the total area of the h/brake linings exceed the area of the two pads on the same wheel. They should certainly have enough area to hold the car on a slope. They do on an E34, so they 'should' work as well on an E39, but from the experience of Dave, myself, and others, it would appear they don't. Mike. >>>That's total bollocks. ;-) The E39 like most BMWs for years has a drum >>>brake within the rear disk for the handbrake, and the friction area is [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > But no matter - this type is usually very good, and far better than the > E39 drum in disc type. As is the combined type where the pads are shared. Nobody said they had calipers. Just that the drum pads (shoes) are small... Signature-Fred W > >>On my car, the hand brake pads are very small. The braking force they > >>can apply is much less than the main brakes. > > > > Which BMW has a caliper hand brake? But no matter - this type is > > usually very good, and far better than the E39 drum in disc type. As > > is the combined type where the pads are shared. > Nobody said they had calipers. Just that the drum pads (shoes) are > small... Calipers have pads, drums shoes. And saying they were smaller in area than the main pads only confirmed that's what was meant - to me at least. Cars with separate handbrake calipers often do have smaller pads than the main brakes. Signature*How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost? * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >>>>On my car, the hand brake pads are very small. The braking force they >>>>can apply is much less than the main brakes. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > with separate handbrake calipers often do have smaller pads than the main > brakes. I do not know of any BMWs that had seperate calipers for the parking brake. AFAIK they all have drums in the rear disk. At least since the advent of rear disk brakes... ;-) Signature-Fred W >>The hand brake is intended to keep a stationary car it rest, it is not >>intended to bring a moving car to a halt. Yes, it can do that when [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > brake within the rear disk for the handbrake, and the friction area is > many times that of the rear pads. I believe Jeff hit the nail on the head with the "force (leverage)" statement. The parking drum brakes have plenty of contact area, just not enough mechanical advantage to provide the required friction. Signature-Fred W > You are not required to mash the pedals to the floor. It's okay to lightly > push them. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > they haven't the force (leverage) aplied that the main brakes have. For > another thing, they call it a Parking Brake for a reason. It *used* to be called an emergency brake. Eisboch > > The hand brake is intended to keep a stationary car it rest, it is not > > intended to bring a moving car to a halt. Yes, it can do that when [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > that the main brakes have. For another thing, they call it a Parking > > Brake for a reason. > It *used* to be called an emergency brake. Although with dual circuit brakes, as are common these days, there's not so much need. However, it's perfectly possible to design a drum brake of this size which would lock the wheels at say 30 mph. Or indeed to use the rear calipers for the job - I had a Rover P6 with Girling disc brakes where the handbrake was part of the rear caliper, and that would exceed 90% efficiency at the annual MOT. Signature*(on a baby-size shirt) "Party -- my crib -- two a.m Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > I'm not worried about, but the handbrake doesn't seen too good either, > but that might be because it's an auto and hasn't been used enough to > keep the drums and linkage in good condition. I'm afraid they're a bad joke. Just why they're worse than an E34 I don't know. Signature*7up is good for you, signed snow white* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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