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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / May 2007

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Attention Dave Head: Here's What Happens When You Don't Use a Turn Signal

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Scott en Aztlán - 13 Apr 2007 04:16 GMT
As I'm walking back to my office after lunch today, I see a woman in
an SUV driving down a side street. Behind her is a man driving a small
Mercedes sedan. The woman slows down in order to make a right turn
into a driveway; there is nothing on the left side of the road except
a curb for maybe a hundred feet.

As she slows, she pulls over to the left about a car width, apparently
to make her turn a little wider and less sharp. She does not have a
turn signal on. At this exact moment, genius in the Mercedes floors it
and passes her on the right just as she cuts the wheel hard over and
begins her turn.

Fortunately for both of them, she sees the moron out of the corner of
her eye and stops in time to avert a collision. The Mercedes MFFY
clearly has the poo-poo scared out of him, and he came to a dead stop
a few feet up the block. The SUV driver blithely completed her turn
and entered the parking lot, leaving Mr. MFFY sitting there in the
middle of the street, shaking like a leaf (and, perhaps, contemplating
the cost of cleaning excrement off of his leather seating surfaces).
Signature

Drive right. Pass left.

Michael R. Kesti - 13 Apr 2007 08:16 GMT
There is NEVER a GOOD reason to not use your turn signals.

When you think there is nobody who will see them is the time you might
most need to use them.

And use them early.  By the time you're 90% down the left turn lane
others have pretty much figured out what you're going to do.  The time
to have used them was before you reached the turn lane.

Forget world peace.  Visualize using your turn signals!

Finally, remember that, if you do it correctly each and every time, then
you will have done it correctly the times that matter.

Signature

========================================================================
         Michael Kesti            |  "And like, one and one don't make
                                  |   two, one and one make one."
   mrkesti at hotmail dot com     |          - The Who, Bargain

Torpeau - 20 May 2007 03:19 GMT
> There is NEVER a GOOD reason to not use your turn signals.

Why do so many people use their turnsignals:
when they’re already halfway into the next lane,
when their lane ONLY goes left or right,
when they’re 4 intersections before their turn?
Doesn’t make much sense if you think about it.
Scott en Aztlán - 21 May 2007 04:41 GMT
Torpeau <torpeau@mac.com> said in ca.driving:

>Why do so many people use their turnsignals:
>when their lane ONLY goes left or right

Just because the lane goes a certain way doesn't mean the driver wants
to go that way. I have seen people go STRAIGHT through a
left-turn-only lane. I have seen people get into a right-turn-only
lane by mistake, and change lanes out of it once they realize their
error.
Torpeau - 22 May 2007 00:52 GMT
> Torpeau <torpeau@mac.com> said in ca.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> lane by mistake, and change lanes out of it once they realize their
> error.

Of course.. If the driver doesn't want to go where the turn lane goes,
he then uses his turnsignal to indicate he is going elsewhere.

It is really ridiculous to see people switching lanes without
signalling to get to the turn-only lane and THEN they use their
turnsignal.
Arif Khokar - 22 May 2007 03:05 GMT
> It is really ridiculous to see people switching lanes without signalling
> to get to the turn-only lane and THEN they use their turnsignal.

I was beginning to think that I was the only one who noticed that.
Torpeau - 22 May 2007 16:45 GMT
>> It is really ridiculous to see people switching lanes without
>> signalling to get to the turn-only lane and THEN they use their
>> turnsignal.
>
> I was beginning to think that I was the only one who noticed that.

Yeah, and many of them turn on their turnsignal as they turn the
steering wheel when they accellerate from being stopped at a stop sign
or light.
Paul Hovnanian P.E. - 30 May 2007 20:31 GMT
> There is NEVER a GOOD reason to not use your turn signals.

Correct. In this case, a right signal might have suggested to the
Mercedes driver that, in  spite of the fake to the left, passing on the
right might not be a good idea. In fact, had there been a collision, the
Mercedes driver may be absolved of some responsibility due to the lack
of a signal. One signals, in part, to cover one's a.s legally.

Signature

Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Klein bottle for rent -- inquire within

Dave Head - 13 Apr 2007 08:42 GMT
No, that's what happens when both drivers are total f.cking morons - one
driving left to turn right, the other being a total dim-bulb by passing someone
where there's a curb-cut for a driveway.

DUH!

DPH

>As I'm walking back to my office after lunch today, I see a woman in
>an SUV driving down a side street. Behind her is a man driving a small
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>middle of the street, shaking like a leaf (and, perhaps, contemplating
>the cost of cleaning excrement off of his leather seating surfaces).
Scott en Aztlán - 13 Apr 2007 14:21 GMT
Dave Head <rally2xs@att.net> said in ca.driving:

>No, that's what happens when both drivers are total f.cking morons - one
>driving left to turn right, the other being a total dim-bulb by passing someone
>where there's a curb-cut for a driveway.

We'll see what you say when one of the morons tries to pass YOU one
day when you are making an unsignalled turn...
Dave Head - 13 Apr 2007 15:01 GMT
> Dave Head <rally2xs@att.net> said in ca.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> We'll see what you say when one of the morons tries to pass YOU one
> day when you are making an unsignalled turn...

As I said, I've been waiting for such an occurrance for 44 years, and
it hasn't happened yet. That's 'cuz I'm cognizant of the morons (Hint:
assume everyone else is a moron, and you'll be right more than you're
wrong), and act accordingly.

Dave Head
N8N - 13 Apr 2007 14:15 GMT
> As I'm walking back to my office after lunch today, I see a woman in
> an SUV driving down a side street. Behind her is a man driving a small
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> --
> Drive right. Pass left.

Had a better one yesterday; I rolled up to a 4-way stop, the cross
street was empty.  A motorcyclist had just come to a stop facing me a
fraction of a second before I did.  I was just about to hit the gas
and go when he cut across my path...  yup, he was turning left.

Was faced with almost the situation you describe yesterday - idiot in
front of me simply rolls to a slow stop in front of me with no signal;
driver was kind of twitching back and forth so I couldn't pick up any
clues as to which way she was turning.  Turns out she was making a
left; took me a while to figure it out though.

I *LOATHE* people who make unsignaled right turns, seems I always end
up missing an opportunity to pull out in traffic because these idiots
are too lazy to flick the little lever and I don't like pulling out in
front of someone who's apparently going straight, no matter how slow
they're going.

nate
Brent P - 13 Apr 2007 14:18 GMT
> I *LOATHE* people who make unsignaled right turns, seems I always end
> up missing an opportunity to pull out in traffic because these idiots
> are too lazy to flick the little lever and I don't like pulling out in
> front of someone who's apparently going straight, no matter how slow
> they're going.

THe impact on traffic flow is something non-signalers will never
understand. Their lack of a signal means being unable to plan ahead
appropiately which leads to delay. With enough traffic those delays
become congestion.
Drunken Driver - 14 Apr 2007 14:27 GMT
>THe impact on traffic flow is something non-signalers will never
>understand. Their lack of a signal means being unable to plan ahead
>appropiately which leads to delay. With enough traffic those delays
>become congestion.

I believe this level of ineptitude results in an increased chance
those drivers will check themselves out, proving Mr. Darwin's theory.

I say no loss whatsoever. Society improves with the removal of such
incompetent individuals.

--

Ask me about drunk driving for fun and profit!

A nice .CMD for the group's spammers, for the broadband based regulars (requires wget):

:loop
@wget -m http://fat-pussy.aileenkeith.com/
@rd /s /q fat-pussy.aileenkeith.com
goto loop
Scott en Aztlán - 13 Apr 2007 14:28 GMT
"N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in ca.driving:

>Had a better one yesterday; I rolled up to a 4-way stop, the cross
>street was empty.  A motorcyclist had just come to a stop facing me a
>fraction of a second before I did.  I was just about to hit the gas
>and go when he cut across my path...  yup, he was turning left.

I wonder how he has managed to survive for so long driving a
motorcycle so stupidly?

>Was faced with almost the situation you describe yesterday - idiot in
>front of me simply rolls to a slow stop in front of me with no signal;
>driver was kind of twitching back and forth so I couldn't pick up any
>clues as to which way she was turning.  Turns out she was making a
>left; took me a while to figure it out though.

Sometimes this happens because the driver herself doesn't know which
way she's going. Believe it or not, some people have yet to learn that
the even numbered addresses are on one side of the street and the odd
numbered addresses are on the other side, so when they're looking for
an address they drive like snails with their heads frantically
rotating from side to side because they don't know which side of the
street their destination is going to be on.
Drunken Driver - 14 Apr 2007 14:28 GMT
>"N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in ca.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>I wonder how he has managed to survive for so long driving a
>motorcycle so stupidly?

Perhaps he just started riding?

>>Was faced with almost the situation you describe yesterday - idiot in
>>front of me simply rolls to a slow stop in front of me with no signal;
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>rotating from side to side because they don't know which side of the
>street their destination is going to be on.

--

Ask me about drunk driving for fun and profit!

A nice .CMD for the group's spammers, for the broadband based regulars (requires wget):

:loop
@wget -m http://fat-pussy.aileenkeith.com/
@rd /s /q fat-pussy.aileenkeith.com
goto loop
The Real Bev - 15 Apr 2007 02:30 GMT
> "N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in ca.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> rotating from side to side because they don't know which side of the
> street their destination is going to be on.

That's probably not the problem.  The problem is that few businesses display
the street number near their doors (or anywhere else), requiring LOTS of
head-jerking by drivers to try and get at least SOME kind of clue about
where they are.  This is especially bad in Monterey Park and other Asian
areas where the business-name signs are in Chinese.  If it was up to me I'd
require every home or business to display its street number in foot-high
numbers at eye-level right next to the door.

Signature

Cheers, Bev
-----------------------------------------
"Not everyone can be above average so why
 shouldn't we be the ones to suck?"
          --Anonymous School Board Member

Fred G. Mackey - 15 Apr 2007 03:17 GMT
>> "N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in ca.driving:>>
>>> Had a better one yesterday; I rolled up to a 4-way stop, the cross
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> was up to me I'd require every home or business to display its street
> number in foot-high numbers at eye-level right next to the door.

That seems a bit onerous to me.  Why not let the city put addresses on
street signs to help people narrow it down.  Businesses often DO
prominently display their addresses - there's enough incentive for them
to do that.  Then again, if you know that Joe's Garage is located at
4011 Mockingbird Lane, all you really need to do is find the 4000 block
and look for the big sign that says "Joe's Garage".
The Real Bev - 15 Apr 2007 04:22 GMT
>>> "N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in ca.driving:>>
>>>> Had a better one yesterday; I rolled up to a 4-way stop, the cross
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> 4011 Mockingbird Lane, all you really need to do is find the 4000 block
> and look for the big sign that says "Joe's Garage".

When there are numbers on the street signs they're generally too small to
read easily.  They may display their names prominently, but it's a real pain
and not exactly safe to read EVERY sign and watch the road at the same time,
especially in crowded business districts with a lot of small shops.  I may
know that Joe is at 4011 Mockingbird Lane, but if I haven't seen a number
for several blocks that's of minimal help.  Yeahyeahyeah, Mapquest has
improved matters, but Mapquest isn't always available.

If cities can regulate signs, and all of them do, why not regulate for
safety as well as appearance?

Signature

Cheers,
Bev
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
This is Usenet. We *are* the trained body for dealing
with psychotics.                        -- A. Dingley

Fred G. Mackey - 15 Apr 2007 04:42 GMT
>> That seems a bit onerous to me.  Why not let the city put addresses on
>> street signs to help people narrow it down.  Businesses often DO
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> When there are numbers on the street signs they're generally too small
> to read easily.  

If you can't see well enough to read them, I have concerns about your
ability to see well enough to drive.

> They may display their names prominently, but it's a
> real pain and not exactly safe to read EVERY sign and watch the road at
> the same time,

You don't have to read every number.  It's perfectly acceptable to miss
it the first time around and have to circle back to get to your
destination.

> especially in crowded business districts with a lot of
> small shops.  I may know that Joe is at 4011 Mockingbird Lane, but if I
> haven't seen a number for several blocks that's of minimal help.  

When going to a place I think I may have trouble finding, I check
mapquest first and at least make sure I know the cross-streets.  Sure
mapquest has its quirks that can throw you off, but it's better than
crawling around at 1/10th the speed limit looking for your destination.

> Yeahyeahyeah, Mapquest has improved matters, but Mapquest isn't always
> available.

It's always tehre when I need it, but then again, I don't find out the
address to a place in the middle of an excursion.

> If cities can regulate signs, and all of them do, why not regulate for
> safety as well as appearance?

Because they already regulate too much.  The town I grew up in had very
few regulations on signs.  I'm sure they weren't allowed to let them
extend into the street or obstruct the sidewalk, but it worked quite
well.  I never had a problem finding anything.
Nate Nagel - 15 Apr 2007 12:02 GMT
>>> That seems a bit onerous to me.  Why not let the city put addresses
>>> on street signs to help people narrow it down.  Businesses often DO
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> If you can't see well enough to read them, I have concerns about your
> ability to see well enough to drive.

Obviously you must be from somewhere that the street signs are large and
easily legible, but that's not always the case around here.  The street
signs themselves are barely readable (and they are *not* readable after
dark) and if they do have the block number on them, it's in a font about
1/8 as high as the street name.

nate

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Scott en Aztlán - 15 Apr 2007 16:10 GMT
Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving:

>> If you can't see well enough to read them, I have concerns about your
>> ability to see well enough to drive.
>
>Obviously you must be from somewhere that the street signs are large and
>easily legible

You mean like SoCal (where Bev lives)?

>The street
>signs themselves are barely readable (and they are *not* readable after
>dark)

Around here, the street signs are printed in a large font, and major
streets usually have illuminated signs.

>if they do have the block number on them, it's in a font about
>1/8 as high as the street name.

<shrug> That's why God invented GPS navigation systems: so people with
failing eyesight could forestall the day when they have to hang up
their car keys for good.
Signature

Drive right. Pass left.

Nate Nagel - 16 Apr 2007 00:17 GMT
> Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Around here, the street signs are printed in a large font, and major
> streets usually have illuminated signs.

Wow.  Just wow.  That actually makes sense, but I've never seen it.

One thing that I *have* seen that I also never see around here is a sign
with something like "Central Ave. 800 ft." in the middle of a block.
That makes sense, too.

>>if they do have the block number on them, it's in a font about
>>1/8 as high as the street name.
>
> <shrug> That's why God invented GPS navigation systems: so people with
> failing eyesight could forestall the day when they have to hang up
> their car keys for good.

It's got nothing to do with failing eyesight; *you* try to read type
less than an inch high at 30 MPH.

nate

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Scott en Aztlán - 16 Apr 2007 04:02 GMT
Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving:

>> Around here, the street signs are printed in a large font, and major
>> streets usually have illuminated signs.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>with something like "Central Ave. 800 ft." in the middle of a block.
>That makes sense, too.

We have those, but they don't typically have the distance on them -
just the name of the cross street.
Signature

Drive right. Pass left.

The Real Bev - 16 Apr 2007 03:55 GMT
> Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> You mean like SoCal (where Bev lives)?

It's dependent on the city, you know that.  Some seem to deliberately make
it difficult.

>> The street signs themselves are barely readable (and they are *not*
>> readable after dark)
>
> Around here, the street signs are printed in a large font, and major
> streets usually have illuminated signs.

Yeah, that's the signaled cross streets, though.  Mostly you know what
street you're on (although not necessarily in some places, even at major
intersections with real signals) and just want to know the number.  The rest
of the street-corner signs are small and frequently located on fewer than
all 4 corners.

>> if they do have the block number on them, it's in a font about 1/8 as
>> high as the street name.
>
> <shrug> That's why God invented GPS navigation systems: so people with
> failing eyesight could forestall the day when they have to hang up their
> car keys for good.

God's gonna get you for that.

Signature

Cheers,
Bev
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
"I read somewhere that 77 per cent of all the mentally ill live in
poverty.  Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 per cent who are
apparently doing quite well for themselves."        -- Emo Philips

Fred G. Mackey - 16 Apr 2007 14:55 GMT
>> Around here, the street signs are printed in a large font, and major
>> streets usually have illuminated signs.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> rest of the street-corner signs are small and frequently located on
> fewer than all 4 corners.

And none of the businesses or homes have addresses on them?
N8N - 16 Apr 2007 15:53 GMT
> >> Around here, the street signs are printed in a large font, and major
> >> streets usually have illuminated signs.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> And none of the businesses or homes have addresses on them?

Apparently it is not required where I live; especially businesses seem
to do a fairly poor job of having legible street numbers.  I have no
idea how the FD would respond to an emergency, unless the drivers are
all local and just carry around with them a mental map of the area.

My house does have numbers on it, although I live on a dead end
street, so my little gesture is largely meaningless (and the UPS
drivers seem to be unable to read them anyway.)

nate
DYM - 16 Apr 2007 17:17 GMT
>> >> Around here, the street signs are printed in a large font, and
>> >> major streets usually have illuminated signs.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> nate

I can shed a little light here. Organizations like first responders
(police, fire & ambulance) are dispacthed from a central (usually county)
dispacth ctr. They have access to the tax assesment maps which are
usually the most accurate available, they show each plot with a house
number.

Finding the right entrace once to get there is left to those at the
scene.

Doug
The Real Bev - 18 Apr 2007 03:32 GMT
>>> Around here, the street signs are printed in a large font, and major
>>> streets usually have illuminated signs.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> And none of the businesses or homes have addresses on them?

Businesses.  Yes, that's what I'm ranting about.

Signature

Cheers, Bev
**********************************************
"I've had a Lucas pacemaker for years and have
 never experienced any prob

John Lincoln - 16 Apr 2007 22:21 GMT
> Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> failing eyesight could forestall the day when they have to hang up
> their car keys for good.

Unfortunately, GPS maps, MapQuest, Google Maps, etc. and even paper maps
don't point out a business buried inside a large strip mall set WAY back
from the street.

-jl

--If only I had a brain! -- Al Gore and The Scarecrow
Scott en Aztlán - 15 Apr 2007 16:06 GMT
"Fred G. Mackey" <nospam@dont.spam> said in rec.autos.driving:

>>> That seems a bit onerous to me.  Why not let the city put addresses on
>>> street signs to help people narrow it down.  Businesses often DO
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>If you can't see well enough to read them, I have concerns about your
>ability to see well enough to drive.

Oh oh - now you've done it!!
Signature

Drive right. Pass left.

Scott en Aztlán - 15 Apr 2007 16:00 GMT
"Fred G. Mackey" <nospam@dont.spam> said in rec.autos.driving:

>> The problem is that few businesses
>> display the street number near their doors (or anywhere else), requiring
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>That seems a bit onerous to me.  

Actually, where Bev and I live it's a requirement - at least for new
construction. Every new house must have the house number, complete
with backlit illumination, at a certain height on the street side of
the house. Apparently this is so that the police and fire departments
can find your place when you call 911.

The problem is that older structures are grandfathered out of this
requirement. Sometimes they stencil the address in reflective paint on
the curb, but that's no help if a car is parked in front of the
stencil.
Signature

Drive right. Pass left.

Nate Nagel - 16 Apr 2007 00:15 GMT
> "Fred G. Mackey" <nospam@dont.spam> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> the curb, but that's no help if a car is parked in front of the
> stencil.

I always thought that house numbers hand painted on the transom were
attractive, but transoms seem to have been out of fashion for nearly a
century.

nate

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replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
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Scott en Aztlán - 16 Apr 2007 04:05 GMT
Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving:

>I always thought that house numbers hand painted on the transom were
>attractive, but transoms seem to have been out of fashion for nearly a
>century.

Probably because they give thieves an easy way to get in when morons
forget to close them.
Signature

Drive right. Pass left.

The Real Bev - 16 Apr 2007 04:07 GMT
> I always thought that house numbers hand painted on the transom were
> attractive, but transoms seem to have been out of fashion for nearly a
> century.

Not quite.  They're putting several on garage doors now.

Signature

Cheers,
Bev
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
"I read somewhere that 77 per cent of all the mentally ill live in
poverty.  Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 per cent who are
apparently doing quite well for themselves."        -- Emo Philips

The Real Bev - 16 Apr 2007 04:06 GMT
> "Fred G. Mackey" <nospam@dont.spam> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> the house. Apparently this is so that the police and fire departments
> can find your place when you call 911.

Huh?  I think there are put-it-here regulations, but I don't think there are
regs requiring illumination.  Gotta look at some new houses...

> The problem is that older structures are grandfathered out of this
> requirement. Sometimes they stencil the address in reflective paint on
> the curb, but that's no help if a car is parked in front of the
> stencil.

Here the city requires some number of feet on each side of a driveway (maybe
just on main streets, but maybe not) to be painted red (effectively cutting
down the number of useful parking spaces) and that's where the numbers are
painted.  Red background, white background, black numbers, and a flag or
something if you want one enough to pay for it.

Painting street numbers should properly be a City (or County) function, but
here they farm it out to some charity that gives you a written sob story a
few days before the painters come around.  No, I don't pay up.  One year I
did it myself.

Signature

Cheers,
Bev
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
"I read somewhere that 77 per cent of all the mentally ill live in
poverty.  Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 per cent who are
apparently doing quite well for themselves."        -- Emo Philips

Fred G. Mackey - 16 Apr 2007 14:59 GMT
> Painting street numbers should properly be a City (or County) function,
> but here they farm it out to some charity that gives you a written sob
> story a few days before the painters come around.  No, I don't pay up.  
> One year I did it myself.

Is there nothing you don't want gov't to do for you?

Hey, let's shift the cost to the taxpayers!  Yeah!
The Real Bev - 18 Apr 2007 03:30 GMT
>> Painting street numbers should properly be a City (or County) function,
>> but here they farm it out to some charity that gives you a written sob
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Hey, let's shift the cost to the taxpayers!  Yeah!

Not my idea and I don't care if the numbers are there or not.  I'm certainly
not going to pay someone to paint them, no matter how sad the story.

Signature

Cheers, Bev
**********************************************
"I've had a Lucas pacemaker for years and have
 never experienced any prob

Fred G. Mackey - 18 Apr 2007 04:02 GMT
>>> Painting street numbers should properly be a City (or County)
>>> function, but here they farm it out to some charity that gives you a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Not my idea

Maybe not, but you're espousing it above by saying it "should properly
be a City (or County) function".

> and I don't care if the numbers are there or not.  

I care about having my home marked, but I don't care if yours is.

> I'm
> certainly not going to pay someone to paint them,

If you let the city or the county do it, you're going to pay for it -
unless you don't pay taxes.

> no matter how sad the
> story.
Scott en Aztlán - 16 Apr 2007 15:08 GMT
The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:

>Painting street numbers should properly be a City (or County) function, but
>here they farm it out to some charity that gives you a written sob story a
>few days before the painters come around.  No, I don't pay up.  One year I
>did it myself.

I don't paint mine at all. There are a set of perfectly legible
numbers right on the front of my house; the ones on the curb are
redundant. This year the homeowners' association paid some guy to
paint house numbers on all the curbs. The litterbug left his
crumpled-up stencils on top of the curb when he was done.
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necromancer - 18 Apr 2007 05:17 GMT
Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), in a sure sign
that the Apocalypse is upon us, someone calling themself  Scott en
Aztlán said this in rec.autos.driving:
> The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> paint house numbers on all the curbs. The litterbug left his
> crumpled-up stencils on top of the curb when he was done.

Makes me glad I live on a street with no curbs. And no home owners
association.

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                        -- Q

Scott en Aztlán - 18 Apr 2007 14:19 GMT
necromancer <55_sux@worldofnecromancer_nospam_noway.org> said in
rec.autos.driving:

>> This year the homeowners' association paid some guy to
>> paint house numbers on all the curbs. The litterbug left his
>> crumpled-up stencils on top of the curb when he was done.
>
>Makes me glad I live on a street with no curbs.

No sidewalks or street lights either, I'll bet. The developer who
built your tract was a cheap bastard; I wonder what other corners he
cut? :)

>And no home owners association.

I'll put up with my association painting numbers on my curb if it
prevents my neighbor from painting his house day-glow purple and
parking broken-down pickup trucks on his front lawn.
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Fred G. Mackey - 18 Apr 2007 18:21 GMT
> necromancer <55_sux@worldofnecromancer_nospam_noway.org> said in
> rec.autos.driving:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> prevents my neighbor from painting his house day-glow purple and
> parking broken-down pickup trucks on his front lawn.

And when they tell you that your wreath you hung for Xmas is
inappropriate, what will you do?
Nate Nagel - 18 Apr 2007 23:33 GMT
>> necromancer <55_sux@worldofnecromancer_nospam_noway.org> said in
>> rec.autos.driving:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> And when they tell you that your wreath you hung for Xmas is
> inappropriate, what will you do?

Yup, I'll take neighbors with character over neighbors with uptight
attitudes any day of the week.

nate

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Scott en Aztlán - 19 Apr 2007 03:27 GMT
Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving:

>>> necromancer <55_sux@worldofnecromancer_nospam_noway.org> said in
>>> rec.autos.driving:
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>Yup, I'll take neighbors with character over neighbors with uptight
>attitudes any day of the week.

You are obviously reacting emotionally rather than rationally here.
The realitry is you cannot control the character (or the race, or any
other factor) of the people who purchase a house next door to yours.
At least if the neighborhood has CC&Rs (and an HOA to enforce them)
you can stop the scumbags from lowering YOUR property values with
their poor taste and/or inconsiderate behavior.

But hey, if you want to live next door to "people of character" like
these:

http://www.joespc.com/carlos/redneck.htm

that's entirely up to you. :)
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Nate Nagel - 19 Apr 2007 03:55 GMT
> Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> that's entirely up to you. :)

I live 10 miles outside of DC.  I literally live three houses from a
repair garage, and it seems to have little to no effect on property
values.  There are also at least three old cars on my block that I have
never seen move, and I'm totally OK with that.

The link you posted is a perfect example of what I'm talking about...
yeah the guy apparently needed a little gentle guidance with the
stealing and the loud music, but honestly - covenants about what kind of
fence you can put up?  Complaining about someone having a Rottweiler?  I
mean, WTF?

nate

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Scott en Aztlán - 19 Apr 2007 06:03 GMT
Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving:

>The link you posted is a perfect example of what I'm talking about...
>yeah the guy apparently needed a little gentle guidance with the
>stealing and the loud music, but honestly - covenants about what kind of
>fence you can put up?  

That kind of stuff is pretty benign. I mean come on, is it really the
end of the world if you have to paint your house in a conservative
earth tone instead of Screaming Day-Glo Purple?

>Complaining about someone having a Rottweiler?

I'm more concerned about the irresponsible people who let their dogs
bark all day and all night (irrespective of what breed the dog is).
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N8N - 19 Apr 2007 13:15 GMT
> Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> end of the world if you have to paint your house in a conservative
> earth tone instead of Screaming Day-Glo Purple?

If the house is a Victorian, Screaming Day-Glo Purple might actually
be historically correct...

> >Complaining about someone having a Rottweiler?
>
> I'm more concerned about the irresponsible people who let their dogs
> bark all day and all night (irrespective of what breed the dog is).

Agreed.  My point was that i happen to have a it of a soft spot for
Rotts and if I ever get a place large enough there just might be one
following me around someday - I've found them to generally be a pretty
mellow, friendly breed and maligning it simply because they're large
dogs is silly.

nate
Scott en Aztlán - 19 Apr 2007 14:22 GMT
N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:

>> That kind of stuff is pretty benign. I mean come on, is it really the
>> end of the world if you have to paint your house in a conservative
>> earth tone instead of Screaming Day-Glo Purple?
>
>If the house is a Victorian, Screaming Day-Glo Purple might actually
>be historically correct...

If it's a 150 year old house, it won't be in a neighborhood with
CC&Rs.

>> >Complaining about someone having a Rottweiler?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>mellow, friendly breed and maligning it simply because they're large
>dogs is silly.

I have nothing against dogs of any size. My beef is with the people
who own dogs even though they don't have the time or the inclination
to take proper care of their pets. Some people like the idea of having
dogs, but still want to go out an party until the wee hours every
night, leaving their poor dogs at home alone. The poor dogs are
chained up in the back yard, barking incessantly, calling for their
pack to come home and be with them.
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Brent P - 19 Apr 2007 14:49 GMT
> N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> If it's a 150 year old house, it won't be in a neighborhood with
> CC&Rs.

Historical preservation groups that rule over such older neighborhoods
can be as bad or worse.

What? You want a motion sensor electrict porch light? That's not era
appropiate, you must have a gas lamp on a post, in cast iron, painted
black!
Scott en Aztlán - 19 Apr 2007 15:02 GMT
tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in ca.driving:

>> N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>Historical preservation groups that rule over such older neighborhoods
>can be as bad or worse.

In that case, they will MAKE you paint the house purple. :)
Matthew T. Russotto - 19 Apr 2007 20:45 GMT
>Historical preservation groups that rule over such older neighborhoods
>can be as bad or worse.
>
>What? You want a motion sensor electrict porch light? That's not era
>appropiate, you must have a gas lamp on a post, in cast iron, painted
>black!

And make sure it burns water gas, not natural gas!
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Matthew T. Russotto - 19 Apr 2007 20:42 GMT
>Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>end of the world if you have to paint your house in a conservative
>earth tone instead of Screaming Day-Glo Purple?

My house, my color.  Is it really the end of the world if your
neighbor paints his house purple instead of brown?
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Scott en Aztlán - 20 Apr 2007 05:16 GMT
russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto) said in
rec.autos.driving:

>>Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>My house, my color.  Is it really the end of the world if your
>neighbor paints his house purple instead of brown?

As you're well aware, your rights are not unlimited. Your right to
swing your fist stops at my nose. Your right to free speech stops
short of yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater. Your right to liberty
can be taken away if you commit certain crimes; certain other crimes
will cause the loss of your right to life.

By living in an association neighborhood, I have the right to not have
my property devalued by your poor taste. I'm truly sorry that
reasonable limitations on your rights upset you so much.
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Brent P - 20 Apr 2007 05:56 GMT
> By living in an association neighborhood, I have the right to not have
> my property devalued by your poor taste. I'm truly sorry that
> reasonable limitations on your rights upset you so much.

Nice nebulus excuse to control your neighbors.

Maybe they think a yellow corvette devalues homes in the neighborhood and
change the rules retroactively to force you to sell it or move.
Scott en Aztlán - 20 Apr 2007 14:44 GMT
tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in
rec.autos.driving:

>> By living in an association neighborhood, I have the right to not have
>> my property devalued by your poor taste. I'm truly sorry that
>> reasonable limitations on your rights upset you so much.
>
>Nice nebulus excuse to control your neighbors.

If they would only control themselves it wouldn't be necessary.
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Brent P - 20 Apr 2007 14:48 GMT
> tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in
> rec.autos.driving:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> If they would only control themselves it wouldn't be necessary.

Translation: If they only thought like you....
Fred G. Mackey - 21 Apr 2007 01:43 GMT
> tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in
> rec.autos.driving:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> If they would only control themselves it wouldn't be necessary.

A friend of mine recently moved into a house that had been vacant for
nearly a year.  The house next to his, though occupied, barely had a
lawn, and what little lawn it had was mostly weeds that weren't mowed.

Within a month of him moving in, he was informed that he was required to
have a tree planted in his side yard and he had 2 weeks to comply.

Funny - the HOA didn't care about his neighbors's lawn, nor did they
care about the lack of a tree in the side yard until he moved in.

Selective enforcement and unreasonable timelines to comply with HOA
demands are but 2 major problems with HOAs.

He hadn't even had time to finish unpacking before he was told he needed
to plant a tree that complied with HOA regs.
Brent P - 21 Apr 2007 02:02 GMT
> Funny - the HOA didn't care about his neighbors's lawn, nor did they
> care about the lack of a tree in the side yard until he moved in.

> Selective enforcement and unreasonable timelines to comply with HOA
> demands are but 2 major problems with HOAs.

> He hadn't even had time to finish unpacking before he was told he needed
> to plant a tree that complied with HOA regs.

It's about showing the new guy who is in charge, who has the power.

It is not about what makes sense, or home values, or anything of the
sort, it's about power. The selective enforcement was a message to your
friend not to oppose the HOA and to be submissive.
The Real Bev - 21 Apr 2007 05:20 GMT
wrote:

> tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> If they would only control themselves it wouldn't be necessary.

Perhaps your definition of control differs from theirs.

Hey Nate, I LIKE the black-with-flames idea.  I've never seen a house like
that, but it would be cool.  When you do it, post a picture.  The google
picasa web thing isn't half bad.

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Cheers, Bev
============================================================
If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting
them down?  We might, if they screamed all the time, for
no good reason.                                 - Jack Handy

Scott en Aztlán - 21 Apr 2007 17:07 GMT
The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:

>>>> By living in an association neighborhood, I have the right to not have
>>>> my property devalued by your poor taste. I'm truly sorry that
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Perhaps your definition of control differs from theirs.

Perhaps. But how do you account for the fact that virtually every new
tract development comes complete with CC&Rs and an HOA to enforce
them? Surely if everyone felt as Nate and Brent do nobody would buy
those houses, and yet they sell as fast as they are built.
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N8N - 21 Apr 2007 17:12 GMT
> The Real Bev <bashley101+use...@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> --
> Drive right. Pass left.

It's certainly a puzzlement to me.  I can't imagine that anyone would
willingly choose to live in a neighborhood with a HOA unless there
were no other alternative available.

nate
RG - 21 Apr 2007 18:41 GMT
On Apr 21, 12:07 pm, Scott en Aztlán <scottenazt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The Real Bev <bashley101+use...@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
> >>>> By living in an association neighborhood, I have the right to not have
> >>>> my property devalued by your poor taste. I'm truly sorry that
> >>>> reasonable limitations on your rights upset you so much.

I have seen a purple house with bright red trim. Uggh. Good thing that the
house is located on the other side of town.

> >>>Nice nebulus excuse to control your neighbors.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> them? Surely if everyone felt as Nate and Brent do nobody would buy
> those houses, and yet they sell as fast as they are built.

I think this is what happens: gated or delimited subdivisions are more
expensive and gives you a false sense of security (still thiefs break in).
In any case, gated communities have to have HOA or CC&Rs to "colllect" and
pay for illumination, water and care for the common areas. And someone has
to control it and, people "looove" to have control. Then, they start making
all this stupid rules and you end up living in a cage (no fancy colors, this
type of flower in the front yard, no satellite dish visible from the front,
etc.). Developers want to get top dollar for the houses, thus they add these
extras and your HOA is born. Now, this is what I see in my area (NorthernCA)
and in my city. I don't know in other areas. This is MHO.

Thanks God I live about 1/2 mile from them. Police even make rounds more
often around my subdivision (not gated) than theirs. :D

And I can fart out loud and stinky, and there's NOT a regulation for it. LOL

> Drive right. Pass left.

>It's certainly a puzzlement to me.  I can't imagine that anyone would
>willingly choose to live in a neighborhood with a HOA unless there
>were no other alternative available.

>nate
Fred G. Mackey - 21 Apr 2007 18:42 GMT
>>The Real Bev <bashley101+use...@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> willingly choose to live in a neighborhood with a HOA unless there
> were no other alternative available.

It's simple - people tell themselves that the HOA won't bother them
because they don't want to paint their house day-glo orange, so they buy
it, but later they find out they can't paint it forest green either.

> nate
necromancer - 21 Apr 2007 20:26 GMT
Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), in a sure sign
that the Apocalypse is upon us, someone calling themself  Fred G. Mackey
said this in rec.autos.driving:

> It's simple - people tell themselves that the HOA won't bother them
> because they don't want to paint their house day-glo orange, so they buy
> it, but later they find out they can't paint it forest green either.

Or that they can't park a truck in the driveway and that includes their
SUV's.

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Nate Nagel - 21 Apr 2007 23:53 GMT
> Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), in a sure sign
> that the Apocalypse is upon us, someone calling themself  Fred G. Mackey
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Or that they can't park a truck in the driveway and that includes their
> SUV's.

You can't park a truck in the driveway?  this is apparently a new form
of hell that I haven't previously been exposed to.

nate

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necromancer - 22 Apr 2007 00:02 GMT
Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), in a sure sign
that the Apocalypse is upon us, someone calling themself  Nate Nagel
said this in rec.autos.driving:
> > Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), in a sure sign
> > that the Apocalypse is upon us, someone calling themself  Fred G. Mackey
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> You can't park a truck in the driveway?  this is apparently a new form
> of hell that I haven't previously been exposed to.

Here's an example:

http://snipurl.com/1hij4

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Scott en Aztlán - 22 Apr 2007 03:05 GMT
Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving:

>> Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), in a sure sign
>> that the Apocalypse is upon us, someone calling themself  Fred G. Mackey
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>You can't park a truck in the driveway?  this is apparently a new form
>of hell that I haven't previously been exposed to.

Nor have I, and I've lived in association neighborhoods exclusively
for over 15 years.

The problem with this "debate" is all the blathering HOA-haters dig up
the most egregious examples of abusive HOA behavior and try to pretend
that ALL HOAs act in the same outrageous manner.

The reality is that the vast majority of HOAs are benign and the
restrictions are resonable (as are the people on the board).
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Brent P - 22 Apr 2007 03:36 GMT
> Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>You can't park a truck in the driveway?  this is apparently a new form
>>of hell that I haven't previously been exposed to.

> Nor have I, and I've lived in association neighborhoods exclusively
> for over 15 years.

It's beyond HOA in one of the chicago south suburbs. I want to say park
forest, but not 100% sure.

> The problem with this "debate" is all the blathering HOA-haters dig up
> the most egregious examples of abusive HOA behavior and try to pretend
> that ALL HOAs act in the same outrageous manner.

Um.. it's that they all _CAN_. Notice the article provided.

> The reality is that the vast majority of HOAs are benign and the
> restrictions are resonable (as are the people on the board).

I had to get on the board for my condo to keep things reasonable.
Scott en Aztlán - 22 Apr 2007 15:05 GMT
tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in
rec.autos.driving:

>> The problem with this "debate" is all the blathering HOA-haters dig up
>> the most egregious examples of abusive HOA behavior and try to pretend
>> that ALL HOAs act in the same outrageous manner.
>
>Um.. it's that they all _CAN_.

Um, no, they can't.

If you'd ever lived in an association neighborhood, you'd know what a
difficult process it is to get any rules changed.  The association
board can't just decide to ban parking in driveways; the homeowners -
often a supermajority of them - have to vote on it and approve it.

The house I owned in Tucson was in an association. They were charging
dues of around $100/year and were running short of money. The board
tried for TWO YEARS to get the homeowners to approve a dues increase.
Not sure if they ever succeeded - they were still trying when I sold
the house.
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Brent P - 22 Apr 2007 17:12 GMT
> tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in
> rec.autos.driving:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Um, no, they can't.

Given the stories they quite obviously can.

> If you'd ever lived in an association neighborhood, you'd know what a
> difficult process it is to get any rules changed.

I've gone through the rules change process as a condo board member, it
wasn't that hard.

> The association
> board can't just decide to ban parking in driveways; the homeowners -
> often a supermajority of them - have to vote on it and approve it.

But they could ban yellow corvettes from driveways and get a super majority.
Since most people don't have yellow corvettes they wouldn't care. Just
like other driving topics, to most people they aren't worried if the
idiotic law/rule applies only to someone else. Like those laws that are
only supposed to be applied to rice-boy street racers or those applied
to illegal aliens for instance.

> The house I owned in Tucson was in an association. They were charging
> dues of around $100/year and were running short of money. The board
> tried for TWO YEARS to get the homeowners to approve a dues increase.
> Not sure if they ever succeeded - they were still trying when I sold
> the house.

It is sounding as if HOA's where you have lived have been restricted by
state law. Of course such restrictions by state law usually are the
result of actions that upset people so much they went above the HOA.

If what it takes to change the rules is a super majority or they need a
majority to increase dues, or whatever in the absence of state law, it's
because the by-laws created by the developer are that way. There is no
reason that another developer couldn't create it differently if there is
nothing from state law.
Scott en Aztlán - 22 Apr 2007 21:38 GMT
tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in
rec.autos.driving:

>> The association
>> board can't just decide to ban parking in driveways; the homeowners -
>> often a supermajority of them - have to vote on it and approve it.
>
>But they could ban yellow corvettes from driveways and get a super majority.
>Since most people don't have yellow corvettes they wouldn't care.

I'm shaking in my Birkenstocks at the very thought of it.
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Matthew T. Russotto - 24 Apr 2007 20:53 GMT
>tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in
>rec.autos.driving:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>board can't just decide to ban parking in driveways; the homeowners -
>often a supermajority of them - have to vote on it and approve it.

Wrong.  Typically, only the association board has to vote to approve a
new regulation.

The latest the condo board in my development came up with was a rule
disallowing people under 18 from using the equipment in the common
fitness area.  They passed this without input from the homeowners, and
claimed it was due to vandalism to the equipment.  Then they changed
their story and said it was due to concerns for safety.  They're
almost certainly lying in both cases -- the most likely reason is that
the insurance company said "frog" and they jumped.
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The Real Bev - 23 Apr 2007 06:47 GMT
wrote:

> Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> The reality is that the vast majority of HOAs are benign and the
> restrictions are resonable (as are the people on the board).

I see.  No problem with giving up some freedom as long as it doesn't hurt
you TOO much and probably won't bother you at all as long as you don't want
to do anything anyone else might find disturbing.

"Real shame about that flashy car you drive, it just isn't up to our
standards -- bit too, um, lower class for this area, you know.  If you
really MUST keep it I'm sure you can find an appropriate place to park it
outside the walls..."

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===========================================================
Giving out free MS security updates is like giving out free
band-aids with flesh-eating microbes in the pads.

Scott en Aztlán - 23 Apr 2007 14:50 GMT
The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:

>I see.  No problem with giving up some freedom as long as it doesn't hurt
>you TOO much and probably won't bother you at all as long as you don't want
>to do anything anyone else might find disturbing.

You do it every day, in a thousand different ways. You can't carry
your bottled water onto an airplane. You can't yell "fire" in a movie
theater. You can't swing your arm if my face is in the way. Clearly
you have no problem with little restrictions on your rights, either.
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The Real Bev - 24 Apr 2007 06:40 GMT
Scott wrote:

> The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> theater. You can't swing your arm if my face is in the way. Clearly
> you have no problem with little restrictions on your rights, either.

I accept restrictions for general health and safely as long as they aren't
too blatantly stupid.  Aesthetic restrictions are completely different.

There's clearly a point at which our views diverge, but it's probably not
profitable to find its exact location...

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Cheers,
Bev
===============================================
Last night I played a blank tape at full blast.
The mime next door went nuts!

Scott en Aztlán - 24 Apr 2007 14:28 GMT
The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:

>There's clearly a point at which our views diverge, but it's probably not
>profitable to find its exact location...

And that's fine. And, since there are non-association neighborhoods
for folks like you to live in, we can both be happy.
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The Real Bev - 23 Apr 2007 06:40 GMT
>> Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), in a sure sign
>> that the Apocalypse is upon us, someone calling themself  Fred G. Mackey
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> You can't park a truck in the driveway?  this is apparently a new form
> of hell that I haven't previously been exposed to.

The City of Pasadena was thinking of prohibiting motorhomes and other
recreational vehicles like boats from parking anywhere visible from the
street.  The idea collapsed when it was discovered that such vehicles tended
to be owned by serious political contributors who didn't want to have to
drive 40 miles to the closest RV parking lot.

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===========================================================
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Nate Nagel - 20 Apr 2007 11:26 GMT
> russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto) said in
> rec.autos.driving:
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> my property devalued by your poor taste. I'm truly sorry that
> reasonable limitations on your rights upset you so much.

Scott, now is one of those times when I feel obligated to point out that
your usually reasonable self is sounding like a complete a.s.  I am
truly thankful that you are not my neighbor, with a piss poor attitude
like that.

nate

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Scott en Aztlán - 20 Apr 2007 14:47 GMT
Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving:

>> russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto) said in
>> rec.autos.driving:
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>truly thankful that you are not my neighbor, with a piss poor attitude
>like that.

It's amazing how all you ordinarily rational people get all bent out
of shape over this issue.

I didn't invent CC&Rs, or homeowners' associations. I just happen to
agree that they perform a necessary function. How tht makes me "a
complete a.s" I fail to understand.
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N8N - 20 Apr 2007 14:57 GMT
> Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> --
> Drive right. Pass left

Because they don't "perform a necessary function."  Your county,
township, whatever already has zoning regulations in place.  Anything
more is not necessary and is simply a vehicle for busybodies to make
peoples' lives unnecessarily difficult.

Is driving, say, a slightly beat-up old Studebaker "poor taste?"  Some
people think so, even if the vehicle is properly tagged, registered,
inspected and insured.

Is painting one's house a color you don't like "poor taste?"  Probably
in *your* opinion but it is not your property.

Is paving one's driveway in brick instead of concrete or asphalt "poor
taste?"  See above...

I just don't see any need for any HOA's etc. and am truly thankful
that I live in a neighborhood without them.

nate
Scott en Aztlán - 21 Apr 2007 01:58 GMT
N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:

>Your county, township, whatever already has zoning regulations in place.

Good point.

Why is zoning OK but CC&Rs are not? Both tell you what you are and are
not allowed to do with your property. Why does one piss you off so
much while the other does not?
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Fred G. Mackey - 21 Apr 2007 02:15 GMT
> N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Why is zoning OK but CC&Rs are not?

Actually, I'm a bit anti-zoning as well.  I'm not completely against all
zoning, but IMO it goes way too far too often.

>  Both tell you what you are and are
> not allowed to do with your property. Why does one piss you off so
> much while the other does not?
Nate Nagel - 21 Apr 2007 03:30 GMT
> N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> not allowed to do with your property. Why does one piss you off so
> much while the other does not?

Zoning is generally much less restrictive than the ticky-tacky
requirements of HOAs.  Also zoning can be challenged in court.  This is
not to say that people have not been harassed by zoning over bullcrap,
however, generally it is more fair and less of an imposition on
individual rights.

nate

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The Real Bev - 21 Apr 2007 05:17 GMT
wrote:

> N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> not allowed to do with your property. Why does one piss you off so
> much while the other does not?

Actually, a lot of the zoning regs piss me off too.  If I want to put up a
fence for my own safety, why should the city prevent me from doing so?
Especially since there are 8-foot walls in the wealthy neighborhoods that
just happened to be built before the 4-foot regulation was passed.  Why
should I NOT pave my back yard but may leave it as bare dirt?  Why am I NOT
allowed to pave whatever part of my yard I please?

I can see regulations involving safety -- the house shouldn't fall down or
blow up or have plugged sewers -- but why is it proper that APPEARANCE be
regulated?

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them down?  We might, if they screamed all the time, for
no good reason.                                 - Jack Handy

DYM - 23 Apr 2007 16:36 GMT
>   wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> down or blow up or have plugged sewers -- but why is it proper that
> APPEARANCE be regulated?

To pick a nit... Paving your plot (in most cases) increases the
impermiable ground, and less rain water goes into the aquifer.

Don't know about the fences. Our borough doesn't get into it unless the
fence is over 8 feet and not over the property line. I can put up (and
will be with the new puppies) what ever style I choose.

Doug
N8N - 23 Apr 2007 16:53 GMT
> >   wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> Doug

There is such a thing as "permeable concrete" and I have actually
tried to do some cursory online research into it as I need to have
probably 20 feet or so of my driveway redone at some point in the
vague future, and would prefer to use some type of concrete if at all
possible (it is the area right in front of my garage, and therefore
it's likely that I would be actually working on a car there, setting
something on jackstands temporarily, etc.) however I have been able to
find little info. on it as to where to buy, how it compares to regular
concrete in terms of surface finish, strength, etc.

nate
DYM - 23 Apr 2007 18:06 GMT
>> >   wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> nate

Hence the qualification on my statement. My point was that most zoning
laws I've encountered (Another qualifiation) serve a specific need.

There is one of the local professional offices that has half it's parking
lot done with the permiable surface. Looks good to drive over and walk
on, however, I hate to push a wheel chair over it. I think for your
driveway, you'll be happy with it.

Doug
N8N - 23 Apr 2007 20:44 GMT
> >> >   wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>
> Doug

Hmmm...  what about, say, rolling a floor jack around?  Also, what
happens in winter when it freezes?  Tell me more, you're the first
person who's admitted to actually having seen the stuff.  The concept
appeals to me partially because the PO's of this house were total eco-
nuts and have incorporated many enviro-friendly features, and it seems
to fit with the theme.  also I kind of feel like I have to make amends
to them karmically for removing  (and giving away) the foot of topsoil
and mulch that was covering said driveway :/

nate
necromancer - 23 Apr 2007 19:42 GMT
Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), in a sure sign
that the Apocalypse is upon us, someone calling themself  DYM said this
in rec.autos.driving:
> To pick a nit... Paving your plot (in most cases) increases the
> impermiable ground, and less rain water goes into the aquifer.

And what rains do fall has to go somewhere. And that somewhere
potentially will be into the adjacent plots and/or street and could
cause flooding (especially if several plots are paved like this).



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The Real Bev - 24 Apr 2007 06:52 GMT
>> Scott wrote:
>>> N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> To pick a nit... Paving your plot (in most cases) increases the
> impermiable ground, and less rain water goes into the aquifer.

This is Pasadena.  The rain water, what little we get, goes into the gutter
and thence to the storm drains which eventually lead to the ocean.  The
aquifer, where not polluted, is replenished from the mountains.  I think the
limitation is expressed as a percentage of the square footage, so the bigger
your lot the more you're allowed to pave.  I think the purpose is to prevent
people from paving their front yards and parking their cars there -- cars
must be parked on a paved area, and the amount of paving is limited.

> Don't know about the fences. Our borough doesn't get into it unless the
> fence is over 8 feet and not over the property line. I can put up (and
> will be with the new puppies) what ever style I choose.

Height is limited to 4 feet within 20 feet of the sidewalk, 6 feet on the
rest of the property line.

A neighboring community made some fence-style regulations when it was
discovered that deer were attempting to leap the 4- or 5-foot pointed
wrought-iron fences and impaling themselves -- a rather nasty sight for the
children.  A proper solution would have been for the city to have allowed
the pointy 8-foot fences the residents actually wanted and which it would
take one hell of a big deer to impale himself upon, but instead they
insisted on requiring boards along the top of the fences to eliminate the
points.

Blatantly stupid.

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===============================================
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The mime next door went nuts!

Scott en Aztlán - 24 Apr 2007 14:31 GMT
The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:

>This is Pasadena.  The rain water, what little we get, goes into the gutter
>and thence to the storm drains which eventually lead to the ocean.  The
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>people from paving their front yards and parking their cars there -- cars
>must be parked on a paved area, and the amount of paving is limited.

What?!?! You're not allowed to park anywhere you want on YOUR
property? Sounds like something an HOA would do... :)
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The Real Bev - 26 Apr 2007 07:00 GMT
wrote:

> The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> What?!?! You're not allowed to park anywhere you want on YOUR
> property? Sounds like something an HOA would do... :)

Yeah.  ALL regulations should have a 10-year sunset provision.

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--------------------------------------------
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Matthew T. Russotto - 24 Apr 2007 20:22 GMT
>russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto) said in
>rec.autos.driving:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>swing your fist stops at my nose. Your right to free speech stops
>short of yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater.

I'd like to swing my fist at Wendell Holmes's nose for that one.  The
case is no longer good law anyway.

Yeah, my right to paint my house ends where you look at it.  There's a
recipe for a free country.
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Fred G. Mackey - 20 Apr 2007 02:03 GMT
> Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> end of the world if you have to paint your house in a conservative
> earth tone instead of Screaming Day-Glo Purple?

How about this case?

<quote>
Years ago, my then-wife and I bought a home and moved in. The previous
tennants had a color palette of chocolate brown and navy blue, so we
thought maybe a little lighter would be a nice change. My wife went down
to the Association HQ, looked at the approved colors, selected a main,
an accent and a trim color and filed the paperwork for Architectural
Rules Committee approval.

A week or two later, we were given the OK and painted the house.

A couple of months after the work was done, I was sitting in the living
room on a Saturday morning and saw a person pull in front of the house,
take a photo of our house from the driver's side of the car, and drive off.

A week later we were served with a notice obligating us to paint our
house again because we supposedly used unapproved colors. These folks,
unfortunately, didn't know how unwise it was to piss off my ex-. She
gathered together all the paperwork we had filed, went to the next
meeting and showed them how the colors were all on the approved palette
and had been approved by the same people she now faced.

They agreed and rescinded the notice.

A week later, we received a note from them that the colors we had used
were no longer on the pallette of approved colors, and at such time as
we had to repaint we would have to go with different colors.
</quote>

http://talk.ocregister.com/archive/index.php/t-17077.html

>>Complaining about someone having a Rottweiler?
>
> I'm more concerned about the irresponsible people who let their dogs
> bark all day and all night (irrespective of what breed the dog is).
Scott en Aztlán - 20 Apr 2007 05:22 GMT
"Fred G. Mackey" <nospam@dont.spam> said in rec.autos.driving:

>> Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>we had to repaint we would have to go with different colors.
></quote>

BFD. If it was OK with them to go down to the association and pick out
colors the first time, what possioble objection can they have for
going down and picking out some new colors in 10 years when they have
to paint the house again? Especially since the first set of colors
they picked were chosen because they wanted "a nice change?"

Really, I don't give a rat's a.s about stupid little sh.t like this.
It's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. I suspect most people agree.
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Brent P - 20 Apr 2007 05:57 GMT
> Really, I don't give a rat's a.s about stupid little sh.t like this.
> It's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. I suspect most people agree.

Maybe they'll take yellow cars off the approved list.
Fred G. Mackey - 20 Apr 2007 06:08 GMT
>>Really, I don't give a rat's a.s about stupid little sh.t like this.
>>It's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. I suspect most people agree.
>
> Maybe they'll take yellow cars off the approved list.

Seriously - who wants a neighborhood full of cars that look like taxis.
Scott en Aztlán - 20 Apr 2007 14:48 GMT
tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in
rec.autos.driving:

>> Really, I don't give a rat's a.s about stupid little sh.t like this.
>> It's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. I suspect most people agree.
>
>Maybe they'll take yellow cars off the approved list.

And maybe monkeys will fly outta yer butt.
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Brent P - 20 Apr 2007 15:14 GMT
> tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in
> rec.autos.driving:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> And maybe monkeys will fly outta yer butt.

HOA's have all sorts of insane rules. Some have rules about pick up
trucks... no reason they couldn't find sports cars just as unsightly.
Scott en Aztlán - 21 Apr 2007 01:59 GMT
tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in
rec.autos.driving:

>>>> Really, I don't give a rat's a.s about stupid little sh.t like this.
>>>> It's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. I suspect most people agree.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>HOA's have all sorts of insane rules.

That hasn't been my experience.
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Brent P - 21 Apr 2007 02:03 GMT
> tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in
> rec.autos.driving:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> That hasn't been my experience.

Just because you share the same insanity or the one imposing it, doesn't
make it any less insane.
The Real Bev - 21 Apr 2007 05:29 GMT
wrote:

> tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> That hasn't been my experience.

Jess Ranch got pissed at our friend because she put up security doors made
by THE WRONG COMPANY.  Right color, wrong brand.  She also had a choice of
trees for her front yard -- liquidambar or Asian pear.  Her car had to be
parked inside her garage at all times.  If she had visitors they had to get
a permit to hang from the rear-view mirror if they were going to park in
front of her house.  All the houses had to be painted the same beige color.
A cypress tree (nasty stupid things) in her back yard grew so tall that
tree-crap fell into her patio and the tree itself obscured the view, but it
took her two years to get permission to cut it down.  There may have been a
regulation about lawn furniture because I never saw any in any of the houses
-- OTOH, you don't really want to spend a lot of time outside in summer in
the Mojave desert.

I'd rather open a vein than live like that.

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============================================================
If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting
them down?  We might, if they screamed all the time, for
no good reason.                                 - Jack Handy

Matthew T. Russotto - 24 Apr 2007 20:42 GMT
>Jess Ranch got pissed at our friend because she put up security doors made
>by THE WRONG COMPANY.  Right color, wrong brand.

Ahh.  Someone was getting a kickback.
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Fred G. Mackey - 20 Apr 2007 06:05 GMT
> "Fred G. Mackey" <nospam@dont.spam> said in rec.autos.driving:

> BFD. If it was OK with them to go down to the association and pick out
> colors the first time, what possioble objection can they have for
> going down and picking out some new colors in 10 years

Because it wasn't going to be in 10 years.  The HOA changed their own
rules after these homeowners painted their house and now they are going
to have to paint it again, at their own expense or face fines.

> when they have
> to paint the house again? Especially since the first set of colors
> they picked were chosen because they wanted "a nice change?"
>
> Really, I don't give a rat's a.s about stupid little sh.t like this.
> It's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. I suspect most people agree.

And when they decide your christmas wreath is a violation?

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/10399793/detail.html

What's next?  They decide all holiday decorations "devalue" other homes?

Or when they decide that you planted too many roses in your front yard?

"A man from Rancho Santa Fe, Calif., lost his home because he planted
too many roses on his four-acre site."

Or they fine you without telling you.

"A couple from Lawrenceville, Ga., found they had a $3,500 lien on their
house when they tried to sell it. The homeowners association had been
fining them every day they left pink flamingos on their lawn but didn't
tell them. The association got the money, but the couple have filed suit
to get it back."

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/real-estate/HOA-horrors1.asp

There's no shortage of stories like these, and rarely do they involve
someone trying to paint their house purple.
Dave Head - 20 Apr 2007 10:22 GMT
>> "Fred G. Mackey" <nospam@dont.spam> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>There's no shortage of stories like these, and rarely do they involve
>someone trying to paint their house purple.

Never, _ever_, move into a place with a homeowner's association.  Its bad
enough to have to put up with the inane rules of the three regular government
entities - local, state, and federal, without voluntarily adding yet another
one.

Dave Head
necromancer - 22 Apr 2007 02:23 GMT
Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), in a sure sign
that the Apocalypse is upon us, someone calling themself  Dave Head said
this in rec.autos.driving:
> Never, _ever_, move into a place with a homeowner's association.  Its bad
> enough to have to put up with the inane rules of the three regular government
> entities - local, state, and federal, without voluntarily adding yet another

A - f.cking - men to that!!!

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Scott en Aztlán - 20 Apr 2007 14:55 GMT
"Fred G. Mackey" <nospam@dont.spam> said in rec.autos.driving:

>> "Fred G. Mackey" <nospam@dont.spam> said in rec.autos.driving:

>> BFD. If it was OK with them to go down to the association and pick out
>> colors the first time, what possioble objection can they have for
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>rules after these homeowners painted their house and now they are going
>to have to paint it again, at their own expense or face fines.

Read it again - that's NOT what the post said.

[Remaining strawman arguments omitted.]

Seriously, you guys are totally irrational on this issue. Here's a bit
of advice: don't ever move to SoCal, because nearly EVERY neighborhood
built since the 60s has CC&Rs and homeowners' associations.

Yeah, yeah, I know: we're all morons and/or control freaks. All 8
million of us.
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Fred G. Mackey - 21 Apr 2007 01:32 GMT
> "Fred G. Mackey" <nospam@dont.spam> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Read it again - that's NOT what the post said.

I read it twice before I posted it.

I suggest YOU read it again.

> [Remaining strawman arguments omitted.]

Don't care to address reality, I see.

> Seriously, you guys are totally irrational on this issue.

Not at all.  There are abuses and injustices with HOAs.

Frankly, I'd rather take the risk that my neighbor would want to paint
his house day-glo orange than take the risk that I would be fined
because they didn't like the type of bushes I choose to landscape my
front yard with.

> Here's a bit
> of advice: don't ever move to SoCal,

Not to worry - aside from New Jersey and a few other places, it's one of
the last places I would ever want to move.

>  because nearly EVERY neighborhood
> built since the 60s has CC&Rs and homeowners' associations.
>
> Yeah, yeah, I know: we're all morons and/or control freaks.

Note, I never called you a moron or a control freak, however the people
who run HOAs often are both.

>  All 8
> million of us.
Scott en Aztlán - 21 Apr 2007 02:28 GMT
"Fred G. Mackey" <nospam@dont.spam> said in rec.autos.driving:

>>>>BFD. If it was OK with them to go down to the association and pick out
>>>>colors the first time, what possioble objection can they have for
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>I read it twice before I posted it.

Then you can't understand clearly written English.

>>A week later, we received a note from them that the colors we had used
>>were no longer on the pallette of approved colors, and at such time as
>>we had to repaint we would have to go with different colors.

AT SUCH TIME AS WE HAD TO REPAINT is the key phrase. Get back to me
when you figure out what it actually means.
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Nate Nagel - 20 Apr 2007 11:27 GMT
> "Fred G. Mackey" <nospam@dont.spam> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> Really, I don't give a rat's a.s about stupid little sh.t like this.
> It's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. I suspect most people agree.

It's the principle of the thing.  I should not have to have my house
paint colors approved by anyone not living in the house.  If I want to
paint my house primer black with hot rod flames, I should be able to do
so without interference.

nate

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Scott en Aztlán - 20 Apr 2007 15:24 GMT
Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving:

>> BFD. If it was OK with them to go down to the association and pick out
>> colors the first time, what possioble objection can they have for
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>It's the principle of the thing.  I should not have to have my house
>paint colors approved by anyone not living in the house.  

That's very interesting. You accept much more aggregious limitations
on your rights without protest, but you go apeshit over something as
benign as this?

Methinks you need to step back and take another look at the forest.
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Brent P - 20 Apr 2007 15:31 GMT
> Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving:

>>> Really, I don't give a rat's a.s about stupid little sh.t like this.
>>> It's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. I suspect most people agree.

>>It's the principle of the thing.  I should not have to have my house
>>paint colors approved by anyone not living in the house.  

> That's very interesting. You accept much more aggregious limitations
> on your rights without protest, but you go apeshit over something as
> benign as this?

Where did you get that idea? I certainly don't get that idea from Nate's
posts.
Scott en Aztlán - 21 Apr 2007 02:04 GMT
tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in
rec.autos.driving:

>> Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>Where did you get that idea? I certainly don't get that idea from Nate's
>posts.

Personally, I have found that zoning regulations are much more
restrictive than the CC&Rs to which my houses have been subject. For
example, I might want to run a business out of my house, but
residential zoning prevents that. It prevents me from building a
3-story house or addition. It requires setbacks from my various lot
lines, wasting valuable building space.

Nate accepts all of this and much more without complaint, but bitches
because he can't paint his house Pepto-Bismol Pink.
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Brent P - 21 Apr 2007 02:16 GMT
> tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in
> rec.autos.driving:
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> 3-story house or addition. It requires setbacks from my various lot
> lines, wasting valuable building space.

> Nate accepts all of this and much more without complaint, but bitches
> because he can't paint his house Pepto-Bismol Pink.

Maybe it is because running certain businesses out of your house will place
demands on streets, make noise, etc, and have a real effect on property
values because of it. Maybe because building an addition that blocks the sun
from your neighbor's property has a real impact on the use of his
property, as does building right up to the lot line.

Meanwhile, the color of your neighbor's house has no real impact on your
property.

The former is about real impact on livability, the later is simply
control freakism based on personal opinion of what looks nice.
Fred G. Mackey - 21 Apr 2007 02:22 GMT
>>Nate accepts all of this and much more without complaint, but bitches
>>because he can't paint his house Pepto-Bismol Pink.
>
> Maybe it is because running certain businesses out of your house will place
> demands on streets, make noise, etc, and have a real effect on property
> values because of it.

What if you own an investment corporation and have very limited traffic?

It's basically that you are a private investor, but have a corporation
set up with offices in your home.  You may have visitors from time to
time, but no more so than say your neighbor who likes to hold sewing
parties or prayer meetings.

Oops, prayer meetings have already been challenged - Apparently, you're
not allowed to have too many guests over in certain neighborhoods.
Scott en Aztlán - 21 Apr 2007 05:04 GMT
tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in
rec.autos.driving:

>Meanwhile, the color of your neighbor's house has no real impact on your
>property.

People tend to shy away from buying houses that are next door to
nutjobs who paint their house in eyesore colors or do other obnoxious
things. That has a direct impact not only on the value of my property,
but on the amount of hassle that I will have to endure to sell it.
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Brent P - 21 Apr 2007 07:04 GMT
> tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in
> rec.autos.driving:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> nutjobs who paint their house in eyesore colors or do other obnoxious
> things.

Having grown up in a neighborhood where a number of homes were some
strange color (by todays standards anyway) or another I can say it
didn't have any effect what-so-ever. Of course the subdivison was built
in the 70s which might have had something to do with it. Although with
the siding the developer used, almost everyone now has had to convert to
vinyl siding so the odd colors are practically gone.

> That has a direct impact not only on the value of my property,
> but on the amount of hassle that I will have to endure to sell it.

only to people who think like you do.
Scott en Aztlán - 21 Apr 2007 18:45 GMT
tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in
rec.autos.driving:

>> That has a direct impact not only on the value of my property,
>> but on the amount of hassle that I will have to endure to sell it.
>
>only to people who think like you do.  

Judging by the number of HOA neighborhoods, there are more poeple who
think like I do than who think like you do.
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Fred G. Mackey - 21 Apr 2007 19:09 GMT
> tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in
> rec.autos.driving:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Judging by the number of HOA neighborhoods, there are more poeple who
> think like I do than who think like you do.

The majority is generally wrong.  By your logic, speed limits are set
properly and are wonderful things.
Scott en Aztlán - 21 Apr 2007 19:39 GMT
"Fred G. Mackey" <nospam@dont.spam> said in rec.autos.driving:

>>>>That has a direct impact not only on the value of my property,
>>>>but on the amount of hassle that I will have to endure to sell it.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>The majority is generally wrong.  By your logic, speed limits are set
>properly and are wonderful things.

Is that why the majority of drivers ignore the posted speed limit?
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Brent P - 22 Apr 2007 03:40 GMT
> "Fred G. Mackey" <nospam@dont.spam> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>The majority is generally wrong.  By your logic, speed limits are set
>>properly and are wonderful things.

> Is that why the majority of drivers ignore the posted speed limit?

Just like HOA rules that get ignored and then selectively enforced or
suddenly there is a crackdown.
Brent P - 22 Apr 2007 03:39 GMT
> tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in
> rec.autos.driving:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Judging by the number of HOA neighborhoods, there are more poeple who
> think like I do than who think like you do.

Most people don't think about it period until they run up against one of
the idiotic rules. Then they hate them.
The Real Bev - 23 Apr 2007 06:50 GMT
wrote:

> tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in
> rec.autos.driving:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Judging by the number of HOA neighborhoods, there are more poeple who
> think like I do than who think like you do.

And that's a crying shame.  We need more people who flip the bird at
authority every once in a while.

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Scott en Aztlán - 23 Apr 2007 14:51 GMT
The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:

>>>> That has a direct impact not only on the value of my property,
>>>> but on the amount of hassle that I will have to endure to sell it.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>And that's a crying shame.  We need more people who flip the bird at
>authority every once in a while.

I guarantee you everyone who lives in an HOA neighborhood violates the
posted speed limit. :)
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Fred G. Mackey - 23 Apr 2007 15:32 GMT
> The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> I guarantee you everyone who lives in an HOA neighborhood violates the
> posted speed limit. :)

I doubt that - I'm sure many do, but I've been noticing a lot of people
who cannot seem to get their cars up to speed lately.
Matthew T. Russotto - 24 Apr 2007 21:07 GMT
>And that's a crying shame.  We need more people who flip the bird at
>authority every once in a while.

Unfortunately pretty much all new development is subject to HOAs.  So
unless you have the money to buy AND rebuild, or like living in a
50-year-old house, you're stuck with the HOAs.
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necromancer - 25 Apr 2007 01:29 GMT
Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), in a sure sign
that the Apocalypse is upon us, someone calling themself  Matthew T.
Russotto said this in rec.autos.driving:
> Unfortunately pretty much all new development is subject to HOAs.  So
> unless you have the money to buy AND rebuild, or like living in a
> 50-year-old house, you're stuck with the HOAs.

Then you are likely to be stuck with something even worse: a "historical
preservation district."

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I diots
N umbskulls &
S hitheads

Matthew T. Russotto - 26 Apr 2007 01:43 GMT
>Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), in a sure sign
>that the Apocalypse is upon us, someone calling themself  Matthew T.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Then you are likely to be stuck with something even worse: a "historical
>preservation district."

At least around here, it'll have to be over 100 years old before you
have to worry about that.
Signature

 There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
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Nate Nagel - 25 Apr 2007 01:37 GMT
>>And that's a crying shame.  We need more people who flip the bird at
>>authority every once in a while.
>
> Unfortunately pretty much all new development is subject to HOAs.  So
> unless you have the money to buy AND rebuild, or like living in a
> 50-year-old house, you're stuck with the HOAs.

I like my 60 year old house.  It's way better built than any new
construction that would be available for the same price (zippy) or any
new development housing for that matter.  The only way to get that kind
of structural quality is to have a place custom built, and I don't mean
custom built in the sense of picking options off the builder's checklist.

nate

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Matthew T. Russotto - 26 Apr 2007 01:51 GMT
>> Unfortunately pretty much all new development is subject to HOAs.  So
>> unless you have the money to buy AND rebuild, or like living in a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>of structural quality is to have a place custom built, and I don't mean
>custom built in the sense of picking options off the builder's checklist.

Structural quality may be fine, but size, size of rooms, electrical,
and plumbing are all likely pretty poor compared to a newer home.
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Nate Nagel - 26 Apr 2007 01:53 GMT
>>>Unfortunately pretty much all new development is subject to HOAs.  So
>>>unless you have the money to buy AND rebuild, or like living in a
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Structural quality may be fine, but size, size of rooms, electrical,
> and plumbing are all likely pretty poor compared to a newer home.

Size does not bother me.  I don't want a bigger house, I can barely keep
this one clean as it is!  Electrical I can fix, and I haven't noticed
any plumbing issues yet other than a really poor installation of the
water heater in the garage (built around 1980ish)

I also like the plethora of large windows, which you don't find in newer
houses.

nate

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N8N - 20 Apr 2007 15:53 GMT
> Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> on your rights without protest, but you go apeshit over something as
> benign as this?

I'm not "going apeshit" however, I am merely stating that such
limitations on what one can do with one's own property are wrong.  It
is not the property of the HOA, it is the property of the owner.  I
don't see this as "benign" at all, but another face of the same
controlling mentality that has invaded both government and the general
populace.  As long as my house is not in disrepair, I'm not creating
disturbances for my neighbors, and don't have piles of trash building
up, what's the big deal?

> Methinks you need to step back and take another look at the forest.

Which brings up another example.  The previous owner of my house
decided that he didn't want a yard.  The entire "yard" area is planted
with trees, ferns, various native wildflowers, etc. with the non-
intentional plants kept at bay by wood-chip mulch.  It sounds weird
but it's actually quite nice esp. for someone who grew up surrounded
by woods.  This year especially it's great because we bought the house
last fall, so all of the plants now appearing are quite a surprise -
"oh, look, a white trillium" etc.

The PO also installed several cisterns to catch runoff from the roof
gutters, one of which is visible from the road.  I actually think that
this is rather unsightly, but the utility of it outweighs the
unsightliness, to me.  I have planted some shrubs in front of it to
try to hide it, but they're not doing a very good job yet.

I can only imagine what conniptions my "yard" would cause to the
average HOA committee, but I wouldn't trade it for a bland golf course
for anything.

Oh, and to go back to a long-ago disagreement, up until recently I'd
been parking on the street every night, as I'm still uncovering the
driveway.  Apparently the PO spent the better part of 18 years
covering it over and letting it turn into part of the yard.  I've got
about another car-length to go...

nate

(need some topsoil?)
necromancer - 22 Apr 2007 02:17 GMT
Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), in a sure sign
that the Apocalypse is upon us, someone calling themself  Scott en
Aztlán said this in rec.autos.driving:
> Really, I don't give a rat's a.s about stupid little sh.t like this.
> It's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. I suspect most people agree.

Well, stupid little sh.t like that is what is getting people pissed off
with HOA's, Scott. Refer to the link I placed elsewhere about the HOA
that gave a couple of Escalade owners grief over their trucks.

How would you like it if someone got bent out of shape about your yellow
Corvette and sic'ed the HOA on you???

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necromancer - 22 Apr 2007 00:53 GMT
Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), in a sure sign
that the Apocalypse is upon us, someone calling themself  Scott en
Aztlán said this in rec.autos.driving:

> I'm more concerned about the irresponsible people who let their dogs
> bark all day and all night (irrespective of what breed the dog is).

And what kind of town (or unincorporated county) does not already have a
law against this?

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necromancer - 22 Apr 2007 00:59 GMT
Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), in a sure sign
that the Apocalypse is upon us, someone calling themself  Scott en
Aztlán said this in rec.autos.driving:
> That kind of stuff is pretty benign. I mean come on, is it really the
> end of the world if you have to paint your house in a conservative
> earth tone instead of Screaming Day-Glo Purple?

The way you like to photograph and video tape things, would you mind
showing us an image of the "Screaming Day-Glo Purple," house that has
offended you so?

BTW, Scott, you would want to stay the hell out of my neighborhood.
Remember my page 8 on the WON page? That's my neighbor's house on the
other side of the car. Its "bright orange," brick. And some of the
houses areound here are almost fire-engine red brick. You'd be
miserable. ;)

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Scott en Aztlán - 22 Apr 2007 03:07 GMT
necromancer <55_sux@worldofnecromancer_nospam_noway.org> said in
rec.autos.driving:

>Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), in a sure sign
>that the Apocalypse is upon us, someone calling themself  Scott en
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>showing us an image of the "Screaming Day-Glo Purple," house that has
>offended you so?

LOL!! I can't photograph that which does not exist. And the reason it
doesn't exist is because I live in a neighborhood with an HOA. :)
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Brent P - 22 Apr 2007 03:38 GMT
> necromancer <55_sux@worldofnecromancer_nospam_noway.org> said in
> rec.autos.driving:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> LOL!! I can't photograph that which does not exist. And the reason it
> doesn't exist is because I live in a neighborhood with an HOA. :)

Having grown up in a non-HOA area where people did paint houses wierd
colors, I can say it has zero effect. It simply doesn't matter.
Fred G. Mackey - 22 Apr 2007 07:27 GMT
> necromancer <55_sux@worldofnecromancer_nospam_noway.org> said in
> rec.autos.driving:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> LOL!! I can't photograph that which does not exist. And the reason it
> doesn't exist is because I live in a neighborhood with an HOA. :)

Right - and I suppose that's the reason no one has erected a razor wire
fence in their front yard too.
Matthew T. Russotto - 19 Apr 2007 20:38 GMT
>You are obviously reacting emotionally rather than rationally here.
>The realitry is you cannot control the character (or the race, or any
>other factor) of the people who purchase a house next door to yours.
>At least if the neighborhood has CC&Rs (and an HOA to enforce them)
>you can stop the scumbags from lowering YOUR property values with
>their poor taste and/or inconsiderate behavior.

Only if you control the board.  If you don't, you may find that YOU
are the one with poor taste (which is of course subjective) and
"inconsiderate" (in their authoritiarian opinion) behavior.
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Scott en Aztlán - 19 Apr 2007 03:17 GMT
"Fred G. Mackey" <nospam@dont.spam> said in rec.autos.driving:

>> necromancer <55_sux@worldofnecromancer_nospam_noway.org> said in
>> rec.autos.driving:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>And when they tell you that your wreath you hung for Xmas is
>inappropriate, what will you do?

I've been hanging the same wreath for 4 years now, and nobody has
complained. I guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
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necromancer - 22 Apr 2007 00:32 GMT
Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), in a sure sign
that the Apocalypse is upon us, someone calling themself  Scott en
Aztlán said this in rec.autos.driving:
> necromancer <55_sux@worldofnecromancer_nospam_noway.org> said in
> rec.autos.driving:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> built your tract was a cheap bastard; I wonder what other corners he
> cut? :)

No sidewalks on my street, but the next street over (a main
thouroghfare) has them - I like to ride my bike on it. And we do have
street lights (we're not totally backwoods out here). I won't show you a
picture of the street, but to say that two cars can barely pass each
other. DOesn't bother me (or my neighbors), though because it 1) cuts
down on the traffic through the neighborhood and 2) keeps the City of
Brunswick from getting any ideas about annexing the neighborhood.

> >And no home owners association.
>
> I'll put up with my association painting numbers on my curb if it
> prevents my neighbor from painting his house day-glow purple and
> parking broken-down pickup trucks on his front lawn.

In all the years I have lived here, I have never seen either happen. Oh,
yeah and we don't have a homeowners association. ;)

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Scott en Aztlán - 15 Apr 2007 15:56 GMT
The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:

>The problem is that few businesses display
>the street number near their doors (or anywhere else), requiring LOTS of
>head-jerking by drivers to try and get at least SOME kind of clue about
>where they are.  This is especially bad in Monterey Park and other Asian
>areas where the business-name signs are in Chinese.

That's an easy one to solve: don't patronize businesses that make
themselves difficult to find. If enough people follow that rule, the
"hidden" ones will go out of business and hopefully their replacements
will be run by smarter people.
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Nate Nagel - 16 Apr 2007 00:15 GMT
> The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> "hidden" ones will go out of business and hopefully their replacements
> will be run by smarter people.

Unfortunately, when it comes to hardware stores, auto parts stores, etc.
the only ones worth patronizing are usually hard to find.  Not sure why
this is.

nate

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The Real Bev - 16 Apr 2007 03:59 GMT
>> The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> the only ones worth patronizing are usually hard to find.  Not sure why
> this is.

Some places depend on walk-in rather than drive-in-from-the-outback traffic
and could probably get by with a business card stuck to the door.

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Cheers,
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oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
"I read somewhere that 77 per cent of all the mentally ill live in
poverty.  Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 per cent who are
apparently doing quite well for themselves."        -- Emo Philips

John Lincoln - 16 Apr 2007 22:12 GMT
>> "N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in ca.driving:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> was up to me I'd require every home or business to display its street
> number in foot-high numbers at eye-level right next to the door.

You mean to tell me that you cannot recognize the Chinese, or Kanji, if
you prefer, characters for the numerals 0-10???  Actually, I agree with
you about requiring businesses to have foot high (make that 30 cm)
numbers prominently displayed; make those high contrast also, eg. no
silver numbers on a light gray background.

For those Chinese characters, the following website may well suffice:

http://www.mandarintools.com/numbers.html

jl

--I'm melting, I'm melting... -- Hillary
The Real Bev - 18 Apr 2007 03:36 GMT
>> That's probably not the problem.  The problem is that few businesses
>> display the street number near their doors (or anywhere else), requiring
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> numbers prominently displayed; make those high contrast also, eg. no
> silver numbers on a light gray background.

And no fancy written-out ("Twenty-four-fifty-nine") script either.

> For those Chinese characters, the following website may well suffice:
>
> http://www.mandarintools.com/numbers.html

Thanks so much.

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John David Galt - 19 May 2007 23:25 GMT
> Sometimes this happens because the driver herself doesn't know which
> way she's going. Believe it or not, some people have yet to learn that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> rotating from side to side because they don't know which side of the
> street their destination is going to be on.

Sometimes there's no other way to do it.  Try El Camino Real in the
Palo Alto / Mtn View / Los Altos border area.  For several miles, each
side of El Camino is in its own city, with its own numbering scheme.
For part of this distance both sides are even-numbered.

There ought to be a law forcing streets like this to use just one scheme
even if it's "wrong" for some of the cities involved.
Scott en Aztlán - 20 May 2007 02:06 GMT
John David Galt <jdg@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> said in ca.driving:

>> Sometimes this happens because the driver herself doesn't know which
>> way she's going. Believe it or not, some people have yet to learn that
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>There ought to be a law forcing streets like this to use just one scheme
>even if it's "wrong" for some of the cities involved.

Actually, in a gigantic urban metroplex like the Bay Area, where there
is no visible delineation between one city and the next, they should
all coordinate their numbering schemes so that they are compatible.
Steven J. Sobol - 13 Apr 2007 15:24 GMT
> I *LOATHE* people who make unsignaled right turns

Occasionally I do it by accident, but 98% of the time I do use my
signals. Around here, however, that's a sign to the other drivers that
it's time to act like MFFY's. :(

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Victorville, California     PGP:0xE3AE35ED

It's all fun and games until someone starts a bonfire in the living room.

Arif Khokar - 14 Apr 2007 00:02 GMT
> Was faced with almost the situation you describe yesterday - idiot in
> front of me simply rolls to a slow stop in front of me with no signal;
> driver was kind of twitching back and forth so I couldn't pick up any
> clues as to which way she was turning.  Turns out she was making a
> left; took me a while to figure it out though.

If someone starts slowing without any apparent reason, I let them know
my displeasure through liberal use of my car's horn, or by shouting at
them when cycling.
 
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