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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / May 2007Attention Dave Head: Here's What Happens When You Don't Use a Turn Signal
As I'm walking back to my office after lunch today, I see a woman in an SUV driving down a side street. Behind her is a man driving a small Mercedes sedan. The woman slows down in order to make a right turn into a driveway; there is nothing on the left side of the road except a curb for maybe a hundred feet. As she slows, she pulls over to the left about a car width, apparently to make her turn a little wider and less sharp. She does not have a turn signal on. At this exact moment, genius in the Mercedes floors it and passes her on the right just as she cuts the wheel hard over and begins her turn. Fortunately for both of them, she sees the moron out of the corner of her eye and stops in time to avert a collision. The Mercedes MFFY clearly has the poo-poo scared out of him, and he came to a dead stop a few feet up the block. The SUV driver blithely completed her turn and entered the parking lot, leaving Mr. MFFY sitting there in the middle of the street, shaking like a leaf (and, perhaps, contemplating the cost of cleaning excrement off of his leather seating surfaces).  SignatureDrive right. Pass left. There is NEVER a GOOD reason to not use your turn signals. When you think there is nobody who will see them is the time you might most need to use them. And use them early. By the time you're 90% down the left turn lane others have pretty much figured out what you're going to do. The time to have used them was before you reached the turn lane. Forget world peace. Visualize using your turn signals! Finally, remember that, if you do it correctly each and every time, then you will have done it correctly the times that matter. Signature======================================================================== Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make | two, one and one make one." mrkesti at hotmail dot com | - The Who, Bargain > There is NEVER a GOOD reason to not use your turn signals. Why do so many people use their turnsignals: when they’re already halfway into the next lane, when their lane ONLY goes left or right, when they’re 4 intersections before their turn? Doesn’t make much sense if you think about it. Torpeau <torpeau@mac.com> said in ca.driving: >Why do so many people use their turnsignals: >when their lane ONLY goes left or right Just because the lane goes a certain way doesn't mean the driver wants to go that way. I have seen people go STRAIGHT through a left-turn-only lane. I have seen people get into a right-turn-only lane by mistake, and change lanes out of it once they realize their error. > Torpeau <torpeau@mac.com> said in ca.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > lane by mistake, and change lanes out of it once they realize their > error. Of course.. If the driver doesn't want to go where the turn lane goes, he then uses his turnsignal to indicate he is going elsewhere. It is really ridiculous to see people switching lanes without signalling to get to the turn-only lane and THEN they use their turnsignal. > It is really ridiculous to see people switching lanes without signalling > to get to the turn-only lane and THEN they use their turnsignal. I was beginning to think that I was the only one who noticed that. >> It is really ridiculous to see people switching lanes without >> signalling to get to the turn-only lane and THEN they use their >> turnsignal. > > I was beginning to think that I was the only one who noticed that. Yeah, and many of them turn on their turnsignal as they turn the steering wheel when they accellerate from being stopped at a stop sign or light. > There is NEVER a GOOD reason to not use your turn signals. Correct. In this case, a right signal might have suggested to the Mercedes driver that, in spite of the fake to the left, passing on the right might not be a good idea. In fact, had there been a collision, the Mercedes driver may be absolved of some responsibility due to the lack of a signal. One signals, in part, to cover one's a.s legally. SignaturePaul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Klein bottle for rent -- inquire within No, that's what happens when both drivers are total f.cking morons - one driving left to turn right, the other being a total dim-bulb by passing someone where there's a curb-cut for a driveway. DUH! DPH >As I'm walking back to my office after lunch today, I see a woman in >an SUV driving down a side street. Behind her is a man driving a small [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >middle of the street, shaking like a leaf (and, perhaps, contemplating >the cost of cleaning excrement off of his leather seating surfaces). Dave Head <rally2xs@att.net> said in ca.driving: >No, that's what happens when both drivers are total f.cking morons - one >driving left to turn right, the other being a total dim-bulb by passing someone >where there's a curb-cut for a driveway. We'll see what you say when one of the morons tries to pass YOU one day when you are making an unsignalled turn... > Dave Head <rally2xs@att.net> said in ca.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > We'll see what you say when one of the morons tries to pass YOU one > day when you are making an unsignalled turn... As I said, I've been waiting for such an occurrance for 44 years, and it hasn't happened yet. That's 'cuz I'm cognizant of the morons (Hint: assume everyone else is a moron, and you'll be right more than you're wrong), and act accordingly. Dave Head > As I'm walking back to my office after lunch today, I see a woman in > an SUV driving down a side street. Behind her is a man driving a small [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > -- > Drive right. Pass left. Had a better one yesterday; I rolled up to a 4-way stop, the cross street was empty. A motorcyclist had just come to a stop facing me a fraction of a second before I did. I was just about to hit the gas and go when he cut across my path... yup, he was turning left. Was faced with almost the situation you describe yesterday - idiot in front of me simply rolls to a slow stop in front of me with no signal; driver was kind of twitching back and forth so I couldn't pick up any clues as to which way she was turning. Turns out she was making a left; took me a while to figure it out though. I *LOATHE* people who make unsignaled right turns, seems I always end up missing an opportunity to pull out in traffic because these idiots are too lazy to flick the little lever and I don't like pulling out in front of someone who's apparently going straight, no matter how slow they're going. nate > I *LOATHE* people who make unsignaled right turns, seems I always end > up missing an opportunity to pull out in traffic because these idiots > are too lazy to flick the little lever and I don't like pulling out in > front of someone who's apparently going straight, no matter how slow > they're going. THe impact on traffic flow is something non-signalers will never understand. Their lack of a signal means being unable to plan ahead appropiately which leads to delay. With enough traffic those delays become congestion. >THe impact on traffic flow is something non-signalers will never >understand. Their lack of a signal means being unable to plan ahead >appropiately which leads to delay. With enough traffic those delays >become congestion. I believe this level of ineptitude results in an increased chance those drivers will check themselves out, proving Mr. Darwin's theory. I say no loss whatsoever. Society improves with the removal of such incompetent individuals. -- Ask me about drunk driving for fun and profit! A nice .CMD for the group's spammers, for the broadband based regulars (requires wget): :loop @wget -m http://fat-pussy.aileenkeith.com/ @rd /s /q fat-pussy.aileenkeith.com goto loop "N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in ca.driving: >Had a better one yesterday; I rolled up to a 4-way stop, the cross >street was empty. A motorcyclist had just come to a stop facing me a >fraction of a second before I did. I was just about to hit the gas >and go when he cut across my path... yup, he was turning left. I wonder how he has managed to survive for so long driving a motorcycle so stupidly? >Was faced with almost the situation you describe yesterday - idiot in >front of me simply rolls to a slow stop in front of me with no signal; >driver was kind of twitching back and forth so I couldn't pick up any >clues as to which way she was turning. Turns out she was making a >left; took me a while to figure it out though. Sometimes this happens because the driver herself doesn't know which way she's going. Believe it or not, some people have yet to learn that the even numbered addresses are on one side of the street and the odd numbered addresses are on the other side, so when they're looking for an address they drive like snails with their heads frantically rotating from side to side because they don't know which side of the street their destination is going to be on. >"N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in ca.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I wonder how he has managed to survive for so long driving a >motorcycle so stupidly? Perhaps he just started riding? >>Was faced with almost the situation you describe yesterday - idiot in >>front of me simply rolls to a slow stop in front of me with no signal; [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >rotating from side to side because they don't know which side of the >street their destination is going to be on. -- Ask me about drunk driving for fun and profit! A nice .CMD for the group's spammers, for the broadband based regulars (requires wget): :loop @wget -m http://fat-pussy.aileenkeith.com/ @rd /s /q fat-pussy.aileenkeith.com goto loop > "N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in ca.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > rotating from side to side because they don't know which side of the > street their destination is going to be on. That's probably not the problem. The problem is that few businesses display the street number near their doors (or anywhere else), requiring LOTS of head-jerking by drivers to try and get at least SOME kind of clue about where they are. This is especially bad in Monterey Park and other Asian areas where the business-name signs are in Chinese. If it was up to me I'd require every home or business to display its street number in foot-high numbers at eye-level right next to the door. SignatureCheers, Bev ----------------------------------------- "Not everyone can be above average so why shouldn't we be the ones to suck?" --Anonymous School Board Member >> "N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in ca.driving:>> >>> Had a better one yesterday; I rolled up to a 4-way stop, the cross [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > was up to me I'd require every home or business to display its street > number in foot-high numbers at eye-level right next to the door. That seems a bit onerous to me. Why not let the city put addresses on street signs to help people narrow it down. Businesses often DO prominently display their addresses - there's enough incentive for them to do that. Then again, if you know that Joe's Garage is located at 4011 Mockingbird Lane, all you really need to do is find the 4000 block and look for the big sign that says "Joe's Garage". >>> "N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in ca.driving:>> >>>> Had a better one yesterday; I rolled up to a 4-way stop, the cross [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > 4011 Mockingbird Lane, all you really need to do is find the 4000 block > and look for the big sign that says "Joe's Garage". When there are numbers on the street signs they're generally too small to read easily. They may display their names prominently, but it's a real pain and not exactly safe to read EVERY sign and watch the road at the same time, especially in crowded business districts with a lot of small shops. I may know that Joe is at 4011 Mockingbird Lane, but if I haven't seen a number for several blocks that's of minimal help. Yeahyeahyeah, Mapquest has improved matters, but Mapquest isn't always available. If cities can regulate signs, and all of them do, why not regulate for safety as well as appearance? SignatureCheers, Bev @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ This is Usenet. We *are* the trained body for dealing with psychotics. -- A. Dingley >> That seems a bit onerous to me. Why not let the city put addresses on >> street signs to help people narrow it down. Businesses often DO [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > When there are numbers on the street signs they're generally too small > to read easily. If you can't see well enough to read them, I have concerns about your ability to see well enough to drive. > They may display their names prominently, but it's a > real pain and not exactly safe to read EVERY sign and watch the road at > the same time, You don't have to read every number. It's perfectly acceptable to miss it the first time around and have to circle back to get to your destination. > especially in crowded business districts with a lot of > small shops. I may know that Joe is at 4011 Mockingbird Lane, but if I > haven't seen a number for several blocks that's of minimal help. When going to a place I think I may have trouble finding, I check mapquest first and at least make sure I know the cross-streets. Sure mapquest has its quirks that can throw you off, but it's better than crawling around at 1/10th the speed limit looking for your destination. > Yeahyeahyeah, Mapquest has improved matters, but Mapquest isn't always > available. It's always tehre when I need it, but then again, I don't find out the address to a place in the middle of an excursion. > If cities can regulate signs, and all of them do, why not regulate for > safety as well as appearance? Because they already regulate too much. The town I grew up in had very few regulations on signs. I'm sure they weren't allowed to let them extend into the street or obstruct the sidewalk, but it worked quite well. I never had a problem finding anything. >>> That seems a bit onerous to me. Why not let the city put addresses >>> on street signs to help people narrow it down. Businesses often DO [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > If you can't see well enough to read them, I have concerns about your > ability to see well enough to drive. Obviously you must be from somewhere that the street signs are large and easily legible, but that's not always the case around here. The street signs themselves are barely readable (and they are *not* readable after dark) and if they do have the block number on them, it's in a font about 1/8 as high as the street name. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving: >> If you can't see well enough to read them, I have concerns about your >> ability to see well enough to drive. > >Obviously you must be from somewhere that the street signs are large and >easily legible You mean like SoCal (where Bev lives)? >The street >signs themselves are barely readable (and they are *not* readable after >dark) Around here, the street signs are printed in a large font, and major streets usually have illuminated signs. >if they do have the block number on them, it's in a font about >1/8 as high as the street name. <shrug> That's why God invented GPS navigation systems: so people with failing eyesight could forestall the day when they have to hang up their car keys for good. SignatureDrive right. Pass left. > Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Around here, the street signs are printed in a large font, and major > streets usually have illuminated signs. Wow. Just wow. That actually makes sense, but I've never seen it. One thing that I *have* seen that I also never see around here is a sign with something like "Central Ave. 800 ft." in the middle of a block. That makes sense, too. >>if they do have the block number on them, it's in a font about >>1/8 as high as the street name. > > <shrug> That's why God invented GPS navigation systems: so people with > failing eyesight could forestall the day when they have to hang up > their car keys for good. It's got nothing to do with failing eyesight; *you* try to read type less than an inch high at 30 MPH. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving: >> Around here, the street signs are printed in a large font, and major >> streets usually have illuminated signs. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >with something like "Central Ave. 800 ft." in the middle of a block. >That makes sense, too. We have those, but they don't typically have the distance on them - just the name of the cross street. SignatureDrive right. Pass left. > Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > You mean like SoCal (where Bev lives)? It's dependent on the city, you know that. Some seem to deliberately make it difficult. >> The street signs themselves are barely readable (and they are *not* >> readable after dark) > > Around here, the street signs are printed in a large font, and major > streets usually have illuminated signs. Yeah, that's the signaled cross streets, though. Mostly you know what street you're on (although not necessarily in some places, even at major intersections with real signals) and just want to know the number. The rest of the street-corner signs are small and frequently located on fewer than all 4 corners. >> if they do have the block number on them, it's in a font about 1/8 as >> high as the street name. > > <shrug> That's why God invented GPS navigation systems: so people with > failing eyesight could forestall the day when they have to hang up their > car keys for good. God's gonna get you for that. SignatureCheers, Bev oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo "I read somewhere that 77 per cent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 per cent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves." -- Emo Philips >> Around here, the street signs are printed in a large font, and major >> streets usually have illuminated signs. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > rest of the street-corner signs are small and frequently located on > fewer than all 4 corners. And none of the businesses or homes have addresses on them? > >> Around here, the street signs are printed in a large font, and major > >> streets usually have illuminated signs. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > And none of the businesses or homes have addresses on them? Apparently it is not required where I live; especially businesses seem to do a fairly poor job of having legible street numbers. I have no idea how the FD would respond to an emergency, unless the drivers are all local and just carry around with them a mental map of the area. My house does have numbers on it, although I live on a dead end street, so my little gesture is largely meaningless (and the UPS drivers seem to be unable to read them anyway.) nate >> >> Around here, the street signs are printed in a large font, and >> >> major streets usually have illuminated signs. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > nate I can shed a little light here. Organizations like first responders (police, fire & ambulance) are dispacthed from a central (usually county) dispacth ctr. They have access to the tax assesment maps which are usually the most accurate available, they show each plot with a house number. Finding the right entrace once to get there is left to those at the scene. Doug >>> Around here, the street signs are printed in a large font, and major >>> streets usually have illuminated signs. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > And none of the businesses or homes have addresses on them? Businesses. Yes, that's what I'm ranting about. SignatureCheers, Bev ********************************************** "I've had a Lucas pacemaker for years and have never experienced any prob > Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > failing eyesight could forestall the day when they have to hang up > their car keys for good. Unfortunately, GPS maps, MapQuest, Google Maps, etc. and even paper maps don't point out a business buried inside a large strip mall set WAY back from the street. -jl --If only I had a brain! -- Al Gore and The Scarecrow "Fred G. Mackey" <nospam@dont.spam> said in rec.autos.driving: >>> That seems a bit onerous to me. Why not let the city put addresses on >>> street signs to help people narrow it down. Businesses often DO [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >If you can't see well enough to read them, I have concerns about your >ability to see well enough to drive. Oh oh - now you've done it!! SignatureDrive right. Pass left. "Fred G. Mackey" <nospam@dont.spam> said in rec.autos.driving: >> The problem is that few businesses >> display the street number near their doors (or anywhere else), requiring [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >That seems a bit onerous to me. Actually, where Bev and I live it's a requirement - at least for new construction. Every new house must have the house number, complete with backlit illumination, at a certain height on the street side of the house. Apparently this is so that the police and fire departments can find your place when you call 911. The problem is that older structures are grandfathered out of this requirement. Sometimes they stencil the address in reflective paint on the curb, but that's no help if a car is parked in front of the stencil. SignatureDrive right. Pass left. > "Fred G. Mackey" <nospam@dont.spam> said in rec.autos.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > the curb, but that's no help if a car is parked in front of the > stencil. I always thought that house numbers hand painted on the transom were attractive, but transoms seem to have been out of fashion for nearly a century. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving: >I always thought that house numbers hand painted on the transom were >attractive, but transoms seem to have been out of fashion for nearly a >century. Probably because they give thieves an easy way to get in when morons forget to close them. SignatureDrive right. Pass left. > I always thought that house numbers hand painted on the transom were > attractive, but transoms seem to have been out of fashion for nearly a > century. Not quite. They're putting several on garage doors now. SignatureCheers, Bev oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo "I read somewhere that 77 per cent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 per cent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves." -- Emo Philips > "Fred G. Mackey" <nospam@dont.spam> said in rec.autos.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > the house. Apparently this is so that the police and fire departments > can find your place when you call 911. Huh? I think there are put-it-here regulations, but I don't think there are regs requiring illumination. Gotta look at some new houses... > The problem is that older structures are grandfathered out of this > requirement. Sometimes they stencil the address in reflective paint on > the curb, but that's no help if a car is parked in front of the > stencil. Here the city requires some number of feet on each side of a driveway (maybe just on main streets, but maybe not) to be painted red (effectively cutting down the number of useful parking spaces) and that's where the numbers are painted. Red background, white background, black numbers, and a flag or something if you want one enough to pay for it. Painting street numbers should properly be a City (or County) function, but here they farm it out to some charity that gives you a written sob story a few days before the painters come around. No, I don't pay up. One year I did it myself. SignatureCheers, Bev oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo "I read somewhere that 77 per cent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 per cent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves." -- Emo Philips > Painting street numbers should properly be a City (or County) function, > but here they farm it out to some charity that gives you a written sob > story a few days before the painters come around. No, I don't pay up. > One year I did it myself. Is there nothing you don't want gov't to do for you? Hey, let's shift the cost to the taxpayers! Yeah! >> Painting street numbers should properly be a City (or County) function, >> but here they farm it out to some charity that gives you a written sob [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Hey, let's shift the cost to the taxpayers! Yeah! Not my idea and I don't care if the numbers are there or not. I'm certainly not going to pay someone to paint them, no matter how sad the story. SignatureCheers, Bev ********************************************** "I've had a Lucas pacemaker for years and have never experienced any prob >>> Painting street numbers should properly be a City (or County) >>> function, but here they farm it out to some charity that gives you a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Not my idea Maybe not, but you're espousing it above by saying it "should properly be a City (or County) function". > and I don't care if the numbers are there or not. I care about having my home marked, but I don't care if yours is. > I'm > certainly not going to pay someone to paint them, If you let the city or the county do it, you're going to pay for it - unless you don't pay taxes. > no matter how sad the > story. The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: >Painting street numbers should properly be a City (or County) function, but >here they farm it out to some charity that gives you a written sob story a >few days before the painters come around. No, I don't pay up. One year I >did it myself. I don't paint mine at all. There are a set of perfectly legible numbers right on the front of my house; the ones on the curb are redundant. This year the homeowners' association paid some guy to paint house numbers on all the curbs. The litterbug left his crumpled-up stencils on top of the curb when he was done. SignatureDrive right. Pass left. Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), in a sure sign that the Apocalypse is upon us, someone calling themself Scott en Aztlán said this in rec.autos.driving: > The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > paint house numbers on all the curbs. The litterbug left his > crumpled-up stencils on top of the curb when he was done. Makes me glad I live on a street with no curbs. And no home owners association. Signature"You cheated, Picard? I'm impressed!" -- Q necromancer <55_sux@worldofnecromancer_nospam_noway.org> said in rec.autos.driving: >> This year the homeowners' association paid some guy to >> paint house numbers on all the curbs. The litterbug left his >> crumpled-up stencils on top of the curb when he was done. > >Makes me glad I live on a street with no curbs. No sidewalks or street lights either, I'll bet. The developer who built your tract was a cheap bastard; I wonder what other corners he cut? :) >And no home owners association. I'll put up with my association painting numbers on my curb if it prevents my neighbor from painting his house day-glow purple and parking broken-down pickup trucks on his front lawn. SignatureDrive right. Pass left. > necromancer <55_sux@worldofnecromancer_nospam_noway.org> said in > rec.autos.driving: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > prevents my neighbor from painting his house day-glow purple and > parking broken-down pickup trucks on his front lawn. And when they tell you that your wreath you hung for Xmas is inappropriate, what will you do? >> necromancer <55_sux@worldofnecromancer_nospam_noway.org> said in >> rec.autos.driving: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > And when they tell you that your wreath you hung for Xmas is > inappropriate, what will you do? Yup, I'll take neighbors with character over neighbors with uptight attitudes any day of the week. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving: >>> necromancer <55_sux@worldofnecromancer_nospam_noway.org> said in >>> rec.autos.driving: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Yup, I'll take neighbors with character over neighbors with uptight >attitudes any day of the week. You are obviously reacting emotionally rather than rationally here. The realitry is you cannot control the character (or the race, or any other factor) of the people who purchase a house next door to yours. At least if the neighborhood has CC&Rs (and an HOA to enforce them) you can stop the scumbags from lowering YOUR property values with their poor taste and/or inconsiderate behavior. But hey, if you want to live next door to "people of character" like these: http://www.joespc.com/carlos/redneck.htm that's entirely up to you. :) SignatureDrive right. Pass left. > Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > that's entirely up to you. :) I live 10 miles outside of DC. I literally live three houses from a repair garage, and it seems to have little to no effect on property values. There are also at least three old cars on my block that I have never seen move, and I'm totally OK with that. The link you posted is a perfect example of what I'm talking about... yeah the guy apparently needed a little gentle guidance with the stealing and the loud music, but honestly - covenants about what kind of fence you can put up? Complaining about someone having a Rottweiler? I mean, WTF? nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving: >The link you posted is a perfect example of what I'm talking about... >yeah the guy apparently needed a little gentle guidance with the >stealing and the loud music, but honestly - covenants about what kind of >fence you can put up? That kind of stuff is pretty benign. I mean come on, is it really the end of the world if you have to paint your house in a conservative earth tone instead of Screaming Day-Glo Purple? >Complaining about someone having a Rottweiler? I'm more concerned about the irresponsible people who let their dogs bark all day and all night (irrespective of what breed the dog is). SignatureDrive right. Pass left. > Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > end of the world if you have to paint your house in a conservative > earth tone instead of Screaming Day-Glo Purple? If the house is a Victorian, Screaming Day-Glo Purple might actually be historically correct... > >Complaining about someone having a Rottweiler? > > I'm more concerned about the irresponsible people who let their dogs > bark all day and all night (irrespective of what breed the dog is). Agreed. My point was that i happen to have a it of a soft spot for Rotts and if I ever get a place large enough there just might be one following me around someday - I've found them to generally be a pretty mellow, friendly breed and maligning it simply because they're large dogs is silly. nate N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: >> That kind of stuff is pretty benign. I mean come on, is it really the >> end of the world if you have to paint your house in a conservative >> earth tone instead of Screaming Day-Glo Purple? > >If the house is a Victorian, Screaming Day-Glo Purple might actually >be historically correct... If it's a 150 year old house, it won't be in a neighborhood with CC&Rs. >> >Complaining about someone having a Rottweiler? >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >mellow, friendly breed and maligning it simply because they're large >dogs is silly. I have nothing against dogs of any size. My beef is with the people who own dogs even though they don't have the time or the inclination to take proper care of their pets. Some people like the idea of having dogs, but still want to go out an party until the wee hours every night, leaving their poor dogs at home alone. The poor dogs are chained up in the back yard, barking incessantly, calling for their pack to come home and be with them. SignatureDrive right. Pass left. > N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > If it's a 150 year old house, it won't be in a neighborhood with > CC&Rs. Historical preservation groups that rule over such older neighborhoods can be as bad or worse. What? You want a motion sensor electrict porch light? That's not era appropiate, you must have a gas lamp on a post, in cast iron, painted black! tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in ca.driving: >> N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Historical preservation groups that rule over such older neighborhoods >can be as bad or worse. In that case, they will MAKE you paint the house purple. :) >Historical preservation groups that rule over such older neighborhoods >can be as bad or worse. > >What? You want a motion sensor electrict porch light? That's not era >appropiate, you must have a gas lamp on a post, in cast iron, painted >black! And make sure it burns water gas, not natural gas! SignatureThere's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can result in a fully-depreciated one. >Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >end of the world if you have to paint your house in a conservative >earth tone instead of Screaming Day-Glo Purple? My house, my color. Is it really the end of the world if your neighbor paints his house purple instead of brown? SignatureThere's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can result in a fully-depreciated one. russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto) said in rec.autos.driving: >>Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >My house, my color. Is it really the end of the world if your >neighbor paints his house purple instead of brown? As you're well aware, your rights are not unlimited. Your right to swing your fist stops at my nose. Your right to free speech stops short of yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater. Your right to liberty can be taken away if you commit certain crimes; certain other crimes will cause the loss of your right to life. By living in an association neighborhood, I have the right to not have my property devalued by your poor taste. I'm truly sorry that reasonable limitations on your rights upset you so much. SignatureDrive right. Pass left. > By living in an association neighborhood, I have the right to not have > my property devalued by your poor taste. I'm truly sorry that > reasonable limitations on your rights upset you so much. Nice nebulus excuse to control your neighbors. Maybe they think a yellow corvette devalues homes in the neighborhood and change the rules retroactively to force you to sell it or move. tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in rec.autos.driving: >> By living in an association neighborhood, I have the right to not have >> my property devalued by your poor taste. I'm truly sorry that >> reasonable limitations on your rights upset you so much. > >Nice nebulus excuse to control your neighbors. If they would only control themselves it wouldn't be necessary. SignatureDrive right. Pass left. > tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in > rec.autos.driving: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > If they would only control themselves it wouldn't be necessary. Translation: If they only thought like you.... > tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in > rec.autos.driving: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > If they would only control themselves it wouldn't be necessary. A friend of mine recently moved into a house that had been vacant for nearly a year. The house next to his, though occupied, barely had a lawn, and what little lawn it had was mostly weeds that weren't mowed. Within a month of him moving in, he was informed that he was required to have a tree planted in his side yard and he had 2 weeks to comply. Funny - the HOA didn't care about his neighbors's lawn, nor did they care about the lack of a tree in the side yard until he moved in. Selective enforcement and unreasonable timelines to comply with HOA demands are but 2 major problems with HOAs. He hadn't even had time to finish unpacking before he was told he needed to plant a tree that complied with HOA regs. > Funny - the HOA didn't care about his neighbors's lawn, nor did they > care about the lack of a tree in the side yard until he moved in. > Selective enforcement and unreasonable timelines to comply with HOA > demands are but 2 major problems with HOAs. > He hadn't even had time to finish unpacking before he was told he needed > to plant a tree that complied with HOA regs. It's about showing the new guy who is in charge, who has the power. It is not about what makes sense, or home values, or anything of the sort, it's about power. The selective enforcement was a message to your friend not to oppose the HOA and to be submissive. wrote: > tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > If they would only control themselves it wouldn't be necessary. Perhaps your definition of control differs from theirs. Hey Nate, I LIKE the black-with-flames idea. I've never seen a house like that, but it would be cool. When you do it, post a picture. The google picasa web thing isn't half bad. SignatureCheers, Bev ============================================================ If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handy The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: >>>> By living in an association neighborhood, I have the right to not have >>>> my property devalued by your poor taste. I'm truly sorry that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Perhaps your definition of control differs from theirs. Perhaps. But how do you account for the fact that virtually every new tract development comes complete with CC&Rs and an HOA to enforce them? Surely if everyone felt as Nate and Brent do nobody would buy those houses, and yet they sell as fast as they are built. SignatureDrive right. Pass left. > The Real Bev <bashley101+use...@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > -- > Drive right. Pass left. It's certainly a puzzlement to me. I can't imagine that anyone would willingly choose to live in a neighborhood with a HOA unless there were no other alternative available. nate On Apr 21, 12:07 pm, Scott en Aztlán <scottenazt...@yahoo.com> wrote: > The Real Bev <bashley101+use...@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: > > >>>> By living in an association neighborhood, I have the right to not have > >>>> my property devalued by your poor taste. I'm truly sorry that > >>>> reasonable limitations on your rights upset you so much. I have seen a purple house with bright red trim. Uggh. Good thing that the house is located on the other side of town. > >>>Nice nebulus excuse to control your neighbors. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > them? Surely if everyone felt as Nate and Brent do nobody would buy > those houses, and yet they sell as fast as they are built. I think this is what happens: gated or delimited subdivisions are more expensive and gives you a false sense of security (still thiefs break in). In any case, gated communities have to have HOA or CC&Rs to "colllect" and pay for illumination, water and care for the common areas. And someone has to control it and, people "looove" to have control. Then, they start making all this stupid rules and you end up living in a cage (no fancy colors, this type of flower in the front yard, no satellite dish visible from the front, etc.). Developers want to get top dollar for the houses, thus they add these extras and your HOA is born. Now, this is what I see in my area (NorthernCA) and in my city. I don't know in other areas. This is MHO. Thanks God I live about 1/2 mile from them. Police even make rounds more often around my subdivision (not gated) than theirs. :D And I can fart out loud and stinky, and there's NOT a regulation for it. LOL > Drive right. Pass left. >It's certainly a puzzlement to me. I can't imagine that anyone would >willingly choose to live in a neighborhood with a HOA unless there >were no other alternative available. >nate >>The Real Bev <bashley101+use...@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > willingly choose to live in a neighborhood with a HOA unless there > were no other alternative available. It's simple - people tell themselves that the HOA won't bother them because they don't want to paint their house day-glo orange, so they buy it, but later they find out they can't paint it forest green either. > nate Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), in a sure sign that the Apocalypse is upon us, someone calling themself Fred G. Mackey said this in rec.autos.driving: > It's simple - people tell themselves that the HOA won't bother them > because they don't want to paint their house day-glo orange, so they buy > it, but later they find out they can't paint it forest green either. Or that they can't park a truck in the driveway and that includes their SUV's. Signature"Look down on me, you will see a fool. Look up at me, you will see your lord. Look straight at me, you will see yourself." - Charles Manson > Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), in a sure sign > that the Apocalypse is upon us, someone calling themself Fred G. Mackey [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Or that they can't park a truck in the driveway and that includes their > SUV's. You can't park a truck in the driveway? this is apparently a new form of hell that I haven't previously been exposed to. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), in a sure sign that the Apocalypse is upon us, someone calling themself Nate Nagel said this in rec.autos.driving: > > Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), in a sure sign > > that the Apocalypse is upon us, someone calling themself Fred G. Mackey [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > You can't park a truck in the driveway? this is apparently a new form > of hell that I haven't previously been exposed to. Here's an example: http://snipurl.com/1hij4 SignatureC an't I nterpret A nything Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving: >> Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), in a sure sign >> that the Apocalypse is upon us, someone calling themself Fred G. Mackey [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >You can't park a truck in the driveway? this is apparently a new form >of hell that I haven't previously been exposed to. Nor have I, and I've lived in association neighborhoods exclusively for over 15 years. The problem with this "debate" is all the blathering HOA-haters dig up the most egregious examples of abusive HOA behavior and try to pretend that ALL HOAs act in the same outrageous manner. The reality is that the vast majority of HOAs are benign and the restrictions are resonable (as are the people on the board). SignatureDrive right. Pass left. > Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >>You can't park a truck in the driveway? this is apparently a new form >>of hell that I haven't previously been exposed to. > Nor have I, and I've lived in association neighborhoods exclusively > for over 15 years. It's beyond HOA in one of the chicago south suburbs. I want to say park forest, but not 100% sure. > The problem with this "debate" is all the blathering HOA-haters dig up > the most egregious examples of abusive HOA behavior and try to pretend > that ALL HOAs act in the same outrageous manner. Um.. it's that they all _CAN_. Notice the article provided. > The reality is that the vast majority of HOAs are benign and the > restrictions are resonable (as are the people on the board). I had to get on the board for my condo to keep things reasonable. tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in rec.autos.driving: >> The problem with this "debate" is all the blathering HOA-haters dig up >> the most egregious examples of abusive HOA behavior and try to pretend >> that ALL HOAs act in the same outrageous manner. > >Um.. it's that they all _CAN_. Um, no, they can't. If you'd ever lived in an association neighborhood, you'd know what a difficult process it is to get any rules changed. The association board can't just decide to ban parking in driveways; the homeowners - often a supermajority of them - have to vote on it and approve it. The house I owned in Tucson was in an association. They were charging dues of around $100/year and were running short of money. The board tried for TWO YEARS to get the homeowners to approve a dues increase. Not sure if they ever succeeded - they were still trying when I sold the house. SignatureDrive right. Pass left. > tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in > rec.autos.driving: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Um, no, they can't. Given the stories they quite obviously can. > If you'd ever lived in an association neighborhood, you'd know what a > difficult process it is to get any rules changed. I've gone through the rules change process as a condo board member, it wasn't that hard. > The association > board can't just decide to ban parking in driveways; the homeowners - > often a supermajority of them - have to vote on it and approve it. But they could ban yellow corvettes from driveways and get a super majority. Since most people don't have yellow corvettes they wouldn't care. Just like other driving topics, to most people they aren't worried if the idiotic law/rule applies only to someone else. Like those laws that are only supposed to be applied to rice-boy street racers or those applied to illegal aliens for instance. > The house I owned in Tucson was in an association. They were charging > dues of around $100/year and were running short of money. The board > tried for TWO YEARS to get the homeowners to approve a dues increase. > Not sure if they ever succeeded - they were still trying when I sold > the house. It is sounding as if HOA's where you have lived have been restricted by state law. Of course such restrictions by state law usually are the result of actions that upset people so much they went above the HOA. If what it takes to change the rules is a super majority or they need a majority to increase dues, or whatever in the absence of state law, it's because the by-laws created by the developer are that way. There is no reason that another developer couldn't create it differently if there is nothing from state law. tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in rec.autos.driving: >> The association >> board can't just decide to ban parking in driveways; the homeowners - >> often a supermajority of them - have to vote on it and approve it. > >But they could ban yellow corvettes from driveways and get a super majority. >Since most people don't have yellow corvettes they wouldn't care. I'm shaking in my Birkenstocks at the very thought of it. SignatureDrive right. Pass left. >tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) said in >rec.autos.driving: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >board can't just decide to ban parking in driveways; the homeowners - >often a supermajority of them - have to vote on it and approve it. Wrong. Typically, only the association board has to vote to approve a new regulation. The latest the condo board in my development came up with was a rule disallowing people under 18 from using the equipment in the common fitness area. They passed this without input from the homeowners, and claimed it was due to vandalism to the equipment. Then they changed their story and said it was due to concerns for safety. They're almost certainly lying in both cases -- the most likely reason is that the insurance company said "frog" and they jumped. SignatureThere's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can result in a fully-depreciated one. wrote: > Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > The reality is that the vast majority of HOAs are benign and the > restrictions are resonable (as are the people on the board). I see. No problem with giving up some freedom as long as it doesn't hurt you TOO much and probably won't bother you at all as long as you don't want to do anything anyone else might find disturbing. "Real shame about that flashy car you drive, it just isn't up to our standards -- bit too, um, lower class for this area, you know. If you really MUST keep it I'm sure you can find an appropriate place to park it outside the walls..." SignatureCheers, Bev =========================================================== Giving out free MS security updates is like giving out free band-aids with flesh-eating microbes in the pads. The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: >I see. No problem with giving up some freedom as long as it doesn't hurt >you TOO much and probably won't bother you at all as long as you don't want >to do anything anyone else might find disturbing. You do it every day, in a thousand different ways. You can't carry your bottled water onto an airplane. You can't yell "fire" in a movie theater. You can't swing your arm if my face is in the way. Clearly you have no problem with little restrictions on your rights, either. SignatureDrive right. Pass left. Scott wrote: > The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > theater. You can't swing your arm if my face is in the way. Clearly > you have no problem with little restrictions on your rights, either. I accept restrictions for general health and safely as long as they aren't too blatantly stupid. Aesthetic restrictions are completely different. There's clearly a point at which our views diverge, but it's probably not profitable to find its exact location... SignatureCheers, Bev =============================================== Last night I played a blank tape at full blast. The mime next door went nuts! The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: >There's clearly a point at which our views diverge, but it's probably not >profitable to find its exact location... And that's fine. And, since there are non-association neighborhoods for folks like you to live in, we can both be happy. SignatureDrive right. Pass left. >> Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), in a sure sign >> that the Apocalypse is upon us, someone calling themself Fred G. Mackey [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > You can't park a truck in the driveway? this is apparently a new form > of hell that I haven't previously been exposed to. The City of Pasadena was thinking of prohibiting motorhomes and other recreational vehicles like boats from parking anywhere visible from the street. The idea collapsed when it was discovered that such vehicles tended to be owned by serious political contributors who didn't want to have to drive 40 miles to the closest RV parking lot. SignatureCheers, Bev =========================================================== Giving out free MS security updates is like giving out free band-aids with flesh-eating microbes in the pads. > russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto) said in > rec.autos.driving: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > my property devalued by your poor taste. I'm truly sorry that > reasonable limitations on your rights upset you so much. Scott, now is one of those times when I feel obligated to point out that your usually reasonable self is sounding like a complete a.s. I am truly thankful that you are not my neighbor, with a piss poor attitude like that. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving: >> russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto) said in >> rec.autos.driving: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >truly thankful that you are not my neighbor, with a piss poor attitude >like that. It's amazing how all you ordinarily rational people get all bent out of shape over this issue. I didn't invent CC&Rs, or homeowners' associations. I just happen to agree that they perform a necessary function. How tht makes me "a complete a.s" I fail to understand. SignatureDrive right. Pass left. > Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> said in rec.autos.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > -- > Drive right. Pass left Because they don't "perform a necessary function." Your county, township, whatever already has zoning regulations in place. Anything more is not necessary and is simply a vehicle for busybodies to make peoples' lives unnecessarily difficult. Is driving, say, a slightly beat-up old Studebaker "poor taste?" Some people think so, even if the vehicle is properly tagged, registered, inspected and insured. Is painting one's house a color you don't like "poor taste?" Probably in *your* opinion but it is not your property. Is paving one's driveway in brick instead of concrete or asphalt "poor taste?" See above... I just don't see any need for any HOA's etc. and am truly thankful that I live in a neighborhood without them. nate N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: >Your county, township, whatever already has zoning regulations in place. Good point. Why is zoning OK but CC&Rs are not? Both tell you what you are and are not allowed to do with your property. Why does one piss you off so much while the other does not? SignatureDrive right. Pass left. > N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Why is zoning OK but CC&Rs are not? Actually, I'm a bit anti-zoning as well. I'm not completely against all zoning, but IMO it goes way too far too often. > Both tell you what you are and are > not allowed to do with your property. Why does one piss you off so > much while the other does not? > N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > not allowed to do with your property. Why does one piss you off so > much while the other does not? Zoning is generally much less restrictive than the ticky-tacky requirements of HOAs. Also zoning can be challenged in court. This is not to say that people have not been harassed by zoning over bullcrap, however, generally it is more fair and less of an imposition on individual rights. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel wrote: > N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > not allowed to do with your property. Why does one piss you off so > much while the other does not? Actually, a lot of the zoning regs piss me off too. If I want to put up a fence for my own safety, why should the city prevent me from doing so? Especially since there are 8-foot walls in the wealthy neighborhoods that just happened to be built before the 4-foot regulation was passed. Why should I NOT pave my back yard but may leave it as bare dirt? Why am I NOT allowed to pave whatever part of my yard I please? I can see regulations involving safety -- the house shouldn't fall down or blow up or have plugged sewers -- but why is it proper that APPEARANCE be regulated? SignatureCheers, Bev ============================================================ If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handy |
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