Dithering the line between State- and County-shields

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Carl Rogers - 29 Jul 2007 19:34 GMT

Hi All,

At one point in time, California had similar signage-conventions for State
and County shields. How so? Just one shield, the traditional miner spade,
was assigned to both route classifications. By today's standards, it may be
hard to distinguish the old State- and County-shields because (a) the
shields' shape were identical, and (b) the route-number text in the shields
were identical.

Here is a photograph of CA-24 in Sacramento County, which carried an
intersection w/ County Route 12:
http://worldwide-hwys.calrog.com/tmp/old-ca-shields.html (Credit: to Joel
Windmiller for passing this one along!)

For those who call northern California home, it may seem like a "stretch"
that Route 24 ever extended into Sacramento County. Well, it did just
that... and went even further! Here was Route 24's routing in 1950, at its
peak-affluence:

(1) Through Berkeley, as Ashby Avenue (present-day State Route 13).
(2) From east Oakland to Walnut Creek (present-day, it's the same route
designation).
(3) Towards Port Chicago (present-day State Route 242).
(4) Duplex w/ State Route 4 into Antioch (present-day Route 4 solo-plex)
(5) Over the Antioch Bridge, and towards Sacramento (present-day State
Route 160).
(6) Outside Sacramento, north into Yuba City, Quincy, and finally to its
eastern terminus at US Federal Route 395. (present-day State Route 70).

Cheers,

Carl Rogers
"Adding human experience to transportation enthusiasm"
********
Calrog.com, http://www.calrog.com :
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Steve Riner - 29 Jul 2007 21:46 GMT

> Hi All,
>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> MySpace: http://www.myspace.com/calrog
> ********

Just as one swallow doesn't make a summer (even at San Juan
Capistrano), one spade sign labeled "county" doesn't make a marking
convention that was commonly followed. Note that the signs have the
diamond logo at the bottom, indicating they were produced by the
California State Automobile Association (CSAA). CSAA and its
counterpart in Southern California, ACSC, had responsibility for
signage on California state routes until about 1949. Signs after that
date will have the round California Division of Highways logo
underneath.

Also note that California State Highway 12 crosses old CA-24 (the part
that is now CA-160) in Sacramento County. The "TEMPORARY" indicator on
this sign suggests that this is a temporary routing of CA-12 over a
county road, and CSAA may well have decided to mark this distinction
while still maintaining a uniform route marker along its length.

Oh --- and the bear on the sign is the California Brown Bear, not the
California Grizzly.

California did not have a marked county road system until the 1960s,
when the current alphanumeric markings appeared. Only in the far
northeast corner of the state have I seen other kinds of numeric
county road markings not part of this system, and elsewhere roads that
weren't numbered according to the alphanumeric system simply had
names.

Steve Riner
Pueblo West CO

Explore New Mexico and Minnesota Highways: http://www.steve-riner.com

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Carl Rogers - 30 Jul 2007 00:46 GMT

Hi Steve,

Thank you! Finally, an intelligent discussion on Usenet transportation
groups. I appreciate the time you put into the response. I find this
to be a breath of fresh air!

> Just as one swallow doesn't make a summer (even at San Juan
> Capistrano), one spade sign labeled "county" doesn't make a marking
> convention that was commonly followed.

Define "common" in tangible, operational terms! Is there any evidence
to cite the county shield were used nowhere else? Even if this county
shield-pattern were to be sprinkled lightly throughout the State, a
interregional, yet minority-sampled distribution could plausibly be
defined as "common" in one's operational definition! Something tells me
there was more than one of these shields ever used in northern state, at
bare minimum. If this was limited to Sacramento County, I'd find that
fascinating considering the widespread deployment of CSAA shields in
that era. If you have evidence to prove the singular incidence of the
county shield, asserting one swallow was the only to exist, please cite.
A few of my colleagues would be interested to see proof either way!

Note that the signs have the

> diamond logo at the bottom, indicating they were produced by the
> California State Automobile Association (CSAA). CSAA and its
> counterpart in Southern California, ACSC, had responsibility for
> signage on California state routes until about 1949. Signs after that
> date will have the round California Division of Highways logo
> underneath.

Excellent catch! ;)

> Also note that California State Highway 12 crosses old CA-24 (the part
> that is now CA-160) in Sacramento County.

That's not too far from the town of Terminous. How apt to
road-enthusiast nomenclature, even if the letter "o" snuck its way in!

The "TEMPORARY" indicator on

> this sign suggests that this is a temporary routing of CA-12 over a
> county road, and CSAA may well have decided to mark this distinction
> while still maintaining a uniform route marker along its length.
>
> Oh --- and the bear on the sign is the California Brown Bear, not the
> California Grizzly.

Au contraire. Reputable sources point to the Grizzly as the designation:

www.cahighways.org/chrphas3.html

"In 1934, the state began numbering non-Federal Highways with a "bear
shield", shaped like a miner's spade and displaying a grizzly bear above
the number. Signage was still done by the CSAA and ACSC."

www.caltrafficsigns.com/chronology.htm

"ACSC and CSAA erect black and white State route shields on State
highways. The new sign is in the shape of a miner's spade and displays a
grizzly bear from the State flag. Often called a "bear shield"."

If you disagree w/ these assertions, plea your case to the authors of
these reputable web-sources. Also worth mention is that the California
Grizzly is the state animal (
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2002/08/05_bears.html), so
designating a brown bear on a shield is simply non-nonsensical to the
state's bearing.

> California did not have a marked county road system until the 1960s,
> when the current alphanumeric markings appeared. Only in the far
> northeast corner of the state have I seen other kinds of numeric
> county road markings not part of this system, and elsewhere roads that
> weren't numbered according to the alphanumeric system simply had
> names.

Mendocino County is another region where numeric County Routes exist.
Taken in 2006,

http://worldwide-hwys.calrog.com/me-111.html

Cheers,

Carl Rogers
"Adding human experience to transportation enthusiasm"
********
Calrog.com,http://www.calrog.com:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
An integrated media arm in Turn-of-the-Century PC Development,
International Transportation Research, and Interpersonal Psychology.
Has served your home country and ninety-eight of its worldwide
neighbours since 2000, through Internet downstream and published works.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MySpace: http://www.myspace.com/calrog
********

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Steve Riner - 30 Jul 2007 04:08 GMT

> Hi Steve,
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> county shield, asserting one swallow was the only to exist, please cite.
> A few of my colleagues would be interested to see proof either way!

I can't prove a negative. I can provide anecdotal, observational
evidence by one who was born and traveled extensively in California
(admittedly as a child, albeit a precocious one for road features)
while the bear spade signs were extant. I never saw a county route
marker of any design other than the pentagonal signs that appeared in
the early 1960s. I would have noted such a thing. My opinion still is
that my theory cited in the previous message is the most likely
explanation for the curious sign (thanks for sharing that photo). You
can take my theory and about $3 and buy a gallon of gas. If anyone
else has photos or recollections to the contrary, then you will have
additional evidence to support an opposite conclusion.

> > Oh --- and the bear on the sign is the California Brown Bear, not the
> > California Grizzly.
>
> Au contraire. Reputable sources point to the Grizzly as the designation:

You are correct. I always heard the animal referred to as the
California Brown Bear, but the grizzly is a subset of the brown bear.
Sorry I didn't check further.

> Mendocino County is another region where numeric County Routes exist.

Not surprising that they are found elsewhere in scattered locations. I
saw them in Lassen County. Square signage not unlike old Minnesota
county route markers, except white on green. I first saw these in the
late 1960s, after the alphanumeric markers on pentagonal signs were
extensive elsewhere in the state, so they were notable.

Steve Riner
Pueblo West CO

Explore New Mexico and Minnesota highways: http://www.steve-riner.com

Reply to this Message

Carl Rogers - 30 Jul 2007 04:18 GMT

>> Au contraire. Reputable sources point to the Grizzly as the designation:
>>
> You are correct. I always heard the animal referred to as the
> California Brown Bear, but the grizzly is a subset of the brown bear.
> Sorry I didn't check further.

Hey Steve,

Don't worry about it... I didn't think about the grizzly being a subset of
the brown bear. That said, it can also be said that your claim was correct
all along!

G'night,

Carl Rogers
"Adding human experience to transportation enthusiasm"
********
Calrog.com, http://www.calrog.com :
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
An integrated media arm in Turn-of-the-Century PC Development, International
Transportation Research, and Interpersonal Psychology. Has served your home
country and ninety-eight of its worldwide neighbours since 2000, through
Internet downstream and published works.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MySpace: http://www.myspace.com/calrog
********

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Cameron Kaiser - 30 Jul 2007 15:55 GMT

>>Mendocino County is another region where numeric County Routes exist.

>Not surprising that they are found elsewhere in scattered locations. I
>saw them in Lassen County. Square signage not unlike old Minnesota
>county route markers, except white on green. I first saw these in the
>late 1960s, after the alphanumeric markers on pentagonal signs were
>extensive elsewhere in the state, so they were notable.

I presume you mean

http://www.floodgap.com/roadgap/395/u15/

It's interesting that Lassen county has alphanumerics also.

Modoc just puts their county road numbers on little "street signs."

--
Cameron Kaiser * ckaiser@floodgap.com * posting with a Commodore 128
personal page: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/
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necromancer - 30 Jul 2007 21:52 GMT

Carl Rogers:

> At one point in time, California had similar signage-conventions for State
> and County shields. How so? Just one shield, the traditional miner spade,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> http://worldwide-hwys.calrog.com/tmp/old-ca-shields.html (Credit: to Joel
> Windmiller for passing this one along!)

Not very a very good thing on the part of the people who created the
signs. To have the SR shield look almost exactly like the CR would make
it rather dangerous for drivers who would have to take eyes off the road
for more than an instant to discern whether the road is a SR or CR.

Signature

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an idiot it is yet again:

"Idiot. District attorneys are considered part of the police force."

--Speeders & Drunk Drivers Are MURDERERS, 7/30/07
Ref: http://tinyurl.com/24a2f5
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Gary V - 31 Jul 2007 14:02 GMT

On Jul 30, 4:52 pm, necromancer

> Not very a very good thing on the part of the people who created the
> signs. To have the SR shield look almost exactly like the CR would make
> it rather dangerous for drivers who would have to take eyes off the road
> for more than an instant to discern whether the road is a SR or CR.

What is the concern that a driver be able to tell a SR from a CR?
Most of the public follows numbers, not caring what kind of number it
is. That's why we see so many news stories and advertisements that
use incorrect terms or shields.

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US 71 - 31 Jul 2007 16:05 GMT

> What is the concern that a driver be able to tell a SR from a CR?
> Most of the public follows numbers, not caring what kind of number it
> is. That's why we see so many news stories and advertisements that
> use incorrect terms or shields.

To be honest, it's only something a Road Scholar really pays attention to
(using the wrong shield). When I was interviewed a couple years ago, I had
to explain why a sign for MO 71 or AR 62 was significant enough to be
photographed.

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