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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / November 2007This Must Have Been What it Was Like
I had an appointment in South County yesterday morning, so I had my first opportunity to drive the CA-133 and CA-241 toll roads. At peak travel time in the morning, these toll roads were completely free-flowing, with traffic moving along at about 75 MPH (a standard pace for SoCal freeways when they're not choked with traffic). Because my house is near one on-ramp and my destination was near another, I was able to complete the entire 16-mile trip in under 20 minutes, including stops at the toll plazas to pay cash (I don't have a FasTrak transponder). That's only a couple of minutes longer than it takes me to drive a mere 8 miles to work using surface streets! It occurred to me that this must have been what it was like back in the 40s and 50s when the first freeways were built. You see in the old films of the period how the freeways are NEVER jammed, and traffic is always flowing at full speed. I have read that driving on these freeways was actually a PLEASANT experience; I can certainly use that adjective to describe my trip on the toll roads yesterday. The price for all this pleasure? A mere $2.75 each way! (If I'd had a FasTrak, it would have cost only $2 each way). Now, to those of you in Eastern states this might seem like a lot of money to pay for a toll, but believe me it's a SMALL price to pay to avoid the nighmarish congestion on SoCal's freeways! To drive the equivalent route on freeways and surface streets would have easily taken 45 minutes to an hour at 7:4AM. How much is YOUR time worth? Of course, I was driving against traffic - most of the commuters on the road live in Rancho Bufu Egypt or the Inland Empire and are heading INTO Irvine, whereas I was heading OUT, but traffic was flowing smoothly even in the other direction. I wonder how long this automotive bliss will last? I watched them build these toll roads back around the turn of the millennium. How long before these, too, become so choked with traffic that they become unusable? Already there are signs that the system is overloaded: the last segment of CA-261/Jamboree Road, which is a 10-lane freeway between Bryan Avenue and Barranca Parkway, regularly backs up from Barrance all the way to Walnut, a distance of 2 miles. The 261 is only about 9 years old, and already it is a MAJOR PITA to use! Congestion pricing, already in place on the 91 toll lanes, will out of necessity be instituted on the 133, the 241, and the 261 before too long, which should stave off complete collapse for a time. Eventually, however, even that won't be enough. It will be interesting to drive these roads again in 5 or 10 years and compare the experiences. [...] >I wonder how long this automotive bliss will last? I watched them >build these toll roads back around the turn of the millennium. How [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Barrance all the way to Walnut, a distance of 2 miles. The 261 is only >about 9 years old, and already it is a MAJOR PITA to use! >Congestion pricing, already in place on the 91 toll lanes, will out of >necessity be instituted on the 133, the 241, and the 261 before too >long, which should stave off complete collapse for a time. Eventually, >however, even that won't be enough. It will be interesting to drive >these roads again in 5 or 10 years and compare the experiences. I know the feeling...here in Houston, the Sam Houston Tollway is experiencing growing pains on all four sides, and the next major project will be expanding the South Sam - which was built with two lanes in each direction between about a mile south of US 59 and a mile west of I-45 on the southeast side. The construction on that will start next summer. The Westpark Tollway is already choked, since it was built on the old UPRR right of way that Metro bought around the turn of the millennium - and at morning rush, it's a parking lot from Texas 6 all the way in to between Fondren and the exit to inbound 59. Congestion pricing won't be far behind.  SignaturePatrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (patrick@io.com) Houston, Texas chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (TCI's 2007-08 Houston Aeros) AA#2273 LAST GAME: Houston 5, San Antonio 1 (November 20) NEXT GAME: Friday, November 23 vs. Milwaukee, 7:35 >I know the feeling...here in Houston, the Sam Houston Tollway is experiencing >growing pains on all four sides, and the next major project will be expanding >the South Sam - which was built with two lanes in each direction between >about a mile south of US 59 and a mile west of I-45 on the southeast side. >Congestion pricing won't be far behind. Your problems in Houston are exacerbated by the low (by SoCal standards, at any rate) tolls you guys pay. One time we tried to escape heavy afternoon rush hour traffic on the 10 (Katy Freeway) by ducking off onto the Sam Houston tollway; we came across the flyover ramp to find that the tollway was just as jammed as the freeway! http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8577721143748467490 Clearly the Houston market will bear MUCH higher tolls than are currently being charged. :) >>I know the feeling...here in Houston, the Sam Houston Tollway is experiencing >>growing pains on all four sides, and the next major project will be expanding >>the South Sam - which was built with two lanes in each direction between >>about a mile south of US 59 and a mile west of I-45 on the southeast side. >>Congestion pricing won't be far behind. >Your problems in Houston are exacerbated by the low (by SoCal >standards, at any rate) tolls you guys pay. One time we tried to >escape heavy afternoon rush hour traffic on the 10 (Katy Freeway) by >ducking off onto the Sam Houston tollway; we came across the flyover >ramp to find that the tollway was just as jammed as the freeway! That would depend on which way you went on the West Sam from the Katy...southbound afternoons will back up from the mainline toll south of Boheme, with the tollway still in its original (1988) configuration. Lanes have been added south of that, all the way down to the Southwest (US 59), including the free section between 59 and Beechnut, and are being added along the north leg of the West Sam from 290 over to 249. (The final gap in the Sam Houston loop, from the 59 Eastex to just south of the US 90 Crosby, will start filling in in about a year...and maybe some day, there will be an actual stack at the three freeway crossings that use surface feeders for movements between tollway and freeway: East Sam at 225 Pasadena Freeway, South Sam at 288 South Freeway, East Sam at 90 Crosby Freeway (and possibly a full connection with the Fort Bend Tollway, which is currently limited to feeders). >http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8577721143748467490 >Clearly the Houston market will bear MUCH higher tolls than are >currently being charged. :) HCTRA has raised the rates twice - on the original West Sam leg, the mainline was 75c for EZTag and $1.00 for cash, which are now $1.25 and 1.50, respectively. Other exits have gone up anywhere from 35 to 60 cents. SignaturePatrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (patrick@io.com) Houston, Texas chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (TCI's 2007-08 Houston Aeros) AA#2273 LAST GAME: Houston 5, San Antonio 1 (November 20) NEXT GAME: Friday, November 23 vs. Milwaukee, 7:35 >>Clearly the Houston market will bear MUCH higher tolls than are >>currently being charged. :) > >HCTRA has raised the rates twice - on the original West Sam leg, the mainline >was 75c for EZTag and $1.00 for cash, which are now $1.25 and 1.50, >respectively. Other exits have gone up anywhere from 35 to 60 cents. Have the higher tolls helped cut the congestion any? >>>Clearly the Houston market will bear MUCH higher tolls than are >>>currently being charged. :) >>HCTRA has raised the rates twice - on the original West Sam leg, the mainline >>was 75c for EZTag and $1.00 for cash, which are now $1.25 and 1.50, >>respectively. Other exits have gone up anywhere from 35 to 60 cents. >Have the higher tolls helped cut the congestion any? Not that I've noticed...the Westpark is its usual parking lot at morning and evening rush, but I came across the South Sam from I-45 to Fondren last week at the afternoon stampede and had no problem in the EZTag lanes. From what I've seen, the EZTag lanes at the mainline toll plazas on the South and West Sam are moving normally, save for a couple of spots around I=10 where the reconstruction of the stack is continuing. SignaturePatrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (patrick@io.com) Houston, Texas chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (TCI's 2007-08 Houston Aeros) AA#2273 LAST GAME: Houston 5, San Antonio 1 (November 20) NEXT GAME: Friday, November 23 vs. Milwaukee, 7:35 > I had an appointment in South County yesterday morning, so I had my > first opportunity to drive the CA-133 and CA-241 toll roads. At peak [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > freeways and surface streets would have easily taken 45 minutes to an > hour at 7:4AM. How much is YOUR time worth? That's $2.75 for a one way trip on the toll roads, for only one day. But if I calculate the yearly cost... ($2.75 / 1 day) * (365 days / 1 year) works out to $1003.75 each year (that isn't a leap year). The FasTrak discount of $2.00 works out to $730 per year. Double that if the toll roads are used in both directions, also on the assumption that the toll isn't significantly increased with heavier traffic conditions. And to calculate the actual value beyond time saved, one would have to figure out how much in gas they are wasting by not using the toll roads and being stuck in freeway and surface streets traffic. But, with the current gas prices, if they use even one extra gallon at $3.00+ per gallon, then the toll roads are a good value after all. > That's $2.75 for a one way trip on the toll roads, for only one day. But if > I calculate the yearly cost... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > assumption that the toll isn't significantly increased with heavier traffic > conditions. How many people actually work everyday of the year? I bet a few do, but most don't. A more realistic calculation would be $2.75 x 5 days x 48 weeks (presuming four weeks off for vacation) = $660 for one-way and double that to $1320, for a daily round-trip on the toll-road. And with a FasTrak® discount, the numbers would be $480 one-way and $960 for a daily round trip. - Peter >> That's $2.75 for a one way trip on the toll roads, for only one day. But if >> I calculate the yearly cost... [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > And with a FasTrak® discount, the numbers would be $480 one-way and $960 > for a daily round trip. And remember, time is irreplaceable. SignatureCheers, Bev ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "Even Islamic terrorists don't hate America like liberals do. They don't have the energy. If they had that much energy, they'd have indoor plumbing by now." -- Ann Coulter >I had an appointment in South County yesterday morning, so I had my > first opportunity to drive the CA-133 and CA-241 toll roads. At peak [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > however, even that won't be enough. It will be interesting to drive > these roads again in 5 or 10 years and compare the experiences. I *always* use the Toll Roads when given the opportunity. Traffic on I-5, I-405, CA-91, and CA-55 is so often bad (and a crapshoot, esp the first two routes) and I am *very* traffic-allergic... ironic, given that I live in SoCal. I have a FasTrak transponder and I'm actually on the "free" account, i.e. it's set up to use the 91 Express Lanes at no charge under the arrangement that I'm only to use it for the 3+ passenger lane (which has no toll westbound and no toll eastbound except for peak afternoon use which is half-toll). I don't commute but head into OC once or twice month. I pretty much always have 2 other passengers with me so the arrangement works well... From Riverside, where I live, I jump on CA-91 and get in the HOV lane, which is usually a really big help. Under most circumstances, you can do at least the SL all the way out to the county line, where the Express Lanes start. I just stay in the HOV lane all the way til it becomes the HOV lane if I'm headed to Anaheim or Newport Beach. To way South OC, just jump onto CA-241 before the Express Lanes. I'm also a big fan of CA-73, that's another route with sparse traffic from what I've experienced, and it's also a beautiful drive through the hills near the coast. In my experiences driving, CA-231, CA-133, and CA-73 have low volumes of traffic... but I don't tend to drive during rush hour... this is more during Saturday driving crush times when SoCal gets *huge* backups on freeways. The Toll Roads are great at those times. brink >I *always* use the Toll Roads when given the opportunity. Traffic on I-5, >I-405, CA-91, and CA-55 is so often bad (and a crapshoot, esp the first two >routes) and I am *very* traffic-allergic... ironic, given that I live in >SoCal. I'm the same way. My solution is not to drive on freeways when I can avoid it. When I can't, I'll try to choose a time when traffic isn't as bad, such as after 8 PM or on the weekend. >To way South OC, just jump onto CA-241 before the Express Lanes. I never understood why they did not build a direct connection ramp between the 241 and the 91 Express Lanes. It kinda defeats the whole point to have this nice toll road that dumps you into the nightmare congestion of the 91. Surely the cost of the ramp could have been shared between the two toll agencies and would have boosted usage of both? > >I *always* use the Toll Roads when given the opportunity. �Traffic on I-5, > >I-405, CA-91, and CA-55 is so often bad (and a crapshoot, esp the first two [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > shared between the two toll agencies and would have boosted usage of > both? That's actually something that I never thought about, but I'm sure *somebody* between the two transit agencies (OC & Riverside Counties) along with CalTrans has discussed the possibility of connecting the 91 express lanes with CA 241. On Nov 22, 3:44�pm, Scott in SoCal <scottenazt...@yahoo.com> wrote: > On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:53:07 -0600, "brink" <brinknos...@hotmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > shared between the two toll agencies and would have boosted usage of > both? That's actually something that I never thought about, but I'm sure *somebody* between the two transit agencies (OC & Riverside Counties) along with CalTrans has discussed the possibility of connecting the 91 express lanes with CA 241. ======================= It would be a massive undertaking -- that is one *big* flyover between WB CA-91 and SB CA-241... I'm sure you'd need something similar for the EB CA-91 Express Lanes traffic to get to SB CA-241 because they'd have to be flown over the non-toll lanes to join with CA-241. Likewise, the NB traffic on CA-241 would have to be flown over additional lanes of traffic to get the FasTrak motorists to the Express Lanes directly. Both of these tasks would be mucho dinero... brink >> I never understood why they did not build a direct connection ramp >> between the 241 and the 91 Express Lanes. > >It would be a massive undertaking -- that is one *big* flyover between WB >CA-91 and SB CA-241... Yes, it is - but now that that portion is built, it's a relatively small matter to build a couple more ramps that climb up from the Express Lanes and join the exiting gigundo flyover. Surely such ramps could pay for themselves in increased tollway usage? >I'm sure you'd need something similar for the EB >CA-91 Express Lanes traffic to get to SB CA-241 because they'd have to be >flown over the non-toll lanes to join with CA-241. Yes, one in each direction would make the most sense. >Both of these tasks would be mucho dinero... Both of those toll roads CHARGE mucho dinero. :) >I never understood why they did not build a direct connection ramp >between the 241 and the 91 Express Lanes. It kinda defeats the whole >point to have this nice toll road that dumps you into the nightmare >congestion of the 91. Surely the cost of the ramp could have been >shared between the two toll agencies and would have boosted usage of >both? I also expected the two tollways to connect when the 241 was built. I recall seeing something in the paper a few months ago saying a connection between the 241 and the 91 Express Lanes was being looked into. I found this, mentioning a connection in 2030(!) (page 18): http://bos.ocgov.com/third/newsletters/pdf/Stantec-SR%2091.pdf This site also mentions the connector (page 13): http://www.octa.net/uploadedfiles/010807riverside.pdf Another one from OCTA: http://www.octa.net/abetter91.aspx >>I never understood why they did not build a direct connection ramp >>between the 241 and the 91 Express Lanes. It kinda defeats the whole [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >I found this, mentioning a connection in 2030(!) (page 18): 2030? That'll be an entry in the "Too Little, Too Late" category, I expect. >The proposed 91 Express Lanes connection with SR-241 >scheduled for year 2030 creates a lane imbalance. That "lane imbalance" must be why they didn't build the direct connectors initially; they wanted a chance to add more Express Lanes first. I also noticed that CTPC's franchise to operate the 91 Express Lanes (since acquired by OCTA) expires in 2030, and that AB 1010 gives authorization for tolls to be collected until 2030. Coincidence? >http://bos.ocgov.com/third/newsletters/pdf/Stantec-SR%2091.pdf >91 Express Lanes traffic growth has significantly outstripped >corridor traffic growth. This is a slight tangent, but NO sh.t, SHERLOCK! The free lanes on the 91 have reached their full capacity and cannot accommodate additional cars; OF COURSE the overflow is going to go through the Express Lanes. >While peak hour traffic growth have slowed somewhat, off-peak >and shoulder period traffic have grown dramatically. [...] >Global (general purpose and 91 Express Lanes) daily traffic has >been redistributed to reflect higher non-peak period demand. Again, DUH! Only so many cars can fit through the neck of the bottle per hour; if there are more cars than that, they get delayed in long traffic jams and come through later on, or the drivers plan ahead and leave earlier. Both of these behaviors broaden the "shoulders" of the curve. How much is OCTA paying these consultants to tell us the obvious? :) >Peak hour tolls have increased following the Toll Policy. Translation: Congestion Pricing is having the desired effect, spreading the same number of cars out over a longer period of time and stabilizing traffic density at any given moment. > It occurred to me that this must have been what it was like back in > the 40s and 50s when the first freeways were built. You see in the old > films of the period how the freeways are NEVER jammed, and traffic is > always flowing at full speed. I have read that driving on these > freeways was actually a PLEASANT experience; I can certainly use that > adjective to describe my trip on the toll roads yesterday. It depended on location. Some new roads --expressways and regular expansion--of the 40s and 50s were jammed the day they were opened, or soon afterwards. (Of course, some expressways never reached their full potential.) Also, during the 50s road construction resulted in nasty detours that caused jammups. > I had an appointment in South County yesterday morning, so I had my > first opportunity to drive the CA-133 and CA-241 toll roads. At peak [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > however, even that won't be enough. It will be interesting to drive > these roads again in 5 or 10 years and compare the experiences. If you want to see what some So Cal freeways *used* to be like, check out this link. http://members.cox.net/mkpl2/hist/hist.html -Brent > The price for all this pleasure? A mere $2.75 each way! The problem with tolls is they rise, and always far faster than the general rate of inflation. Someday your grandson will be posting and saying "I remember seeing those films from the early 2000s when tolls were only $2.75 for all that driving pleasure. What is it now? $20! And the roads are logjammed" John SignatureVon Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. --Beethoven |
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