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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / July 2009More than 160 drivers ticketed in South Pasadena police sting
AVOID SOUTH PASADENA LIKE THE PLAGUE. A PROVERBIAL 'SPEED TRAP!' (TOO BAD FOR THE MERCHANTS OF THAT FAIR CITY) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-bus-ticketing19-2009jun19,0,6895209.story From the Los Angeles Times More than 160 drivers ticketed in South Pasadena police sting $500 citations issued to drivers who fail to stop for a school bus with lights flashing. By Corina Knoll 9:57 PM PDT, June 18, 2009 More than 160 people received $500 traffic citations Wednesday as part of a sting by the South Pasadena Police Department involving a decoy school bus complete with people walking on and off the vehicle. The sting -- designed to nab motorists who fail to stop for school buses with flashing red lights -- has generated debate in the city. Some said the program was unfair, charging that the location was unusual for a school bus, that the officers created a distraction and that there were no schoolchildren present. "It was a crazy place for a school bus to be parked," said Valerie McAndrews, whose 16-year-old daughter was among those cited. "You don't stop in the middle of Huntington or you're going to be rear- ended. In this particular instance, I don't think there was any way to obey the law." Others are supporting the effort, saying the city needs to crack down on drivers who don't follow the rules. The yellow school bus first appeared on the busy six-lane road about 8 a.m. near the intersection of Milan Avenue, which has no stop sign or crosswalk. San Gabriel resident Mary Hatton, 42, said she approached the area about 8:45 a.m. and was confused when she saw more than a dozen officers among the cars in the middle of the busy street. "It was a circus of lights and chaos," she said of the sting that included officers from the cities of Alhambra, Monterey Park, San Gabriel, San Marino and the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department Temple City station. "No one was speeding," Hatton said. "I mean people were literally just trying to figure out what was going on and what to do to keep away from whatever the activity was. I thought I was being directed along with other motorists away from whatever it was that was happening." Instead, Hatton also received the $500 ticket. The South Pasadena Police Department decided to set up the sting in the area after receiving a complaint from the parents of a disabled child who boards a school bus on Huntington Drive, Police Chief Dan Watson said. "They've had a difficult time getting to the bus because people don't comply with the vehicle code," he said. That code says drivers may not pass a school bus with its red lights flashing when it is "stopped for the purpose of loading or unloading any schoolchildren." Sgt. Tony Abdalla said there were two decoys who got on and off the bus while the warning lights were flashing. "There were no children to be seen from my vantage point," said Hatton. She also said that the scene distracted more than it mimicked a life- like situation. This distinction may weigh in favor of those who decide to contest their tickets, said Santa Monica attorney Philip Israels. "If in fact what the officers are doing is suggesting that people commit a crime which they normally would not be committing, then we get into a whole issue of whether or not there's entrapment," he said. Watson said Matthew St. George, a Superior Court commissioner in Alhambra, had been on site and assured police the operation was within legal guidelines. "The fact that we wrote so many tickets in a short period of time is an indication that the driving public is not aware that they're required to stop or they're not paying attention." He said the sting was not designed to generate extra revenue for the city. Some community members endorsed the officers' actions, especially on a road where traffic whizzes by and accidents are known to occur. "We just had someone last year that got killed right up the street here," said Sandra Muro, a dental assistant whose office is nearby. "They're making a point that they need to slow down." corina.knoll@latimes.com In message <df428e45-3329-4299-8c66-4083c35eee40@a39g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, >AVOID SOUTH PASADENA LIKE THE PLAGUE. A PROVERBIAL 'SPEED TRAP!' (TOO >BAD FOR THE MERCHANTS OF THAT FAIR CITY) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >9:57 PM PDT, June 18, 2009 OK, so you got a ticket in SoPas, so now you're on a vendetta to embarrass them/make them look bad/punish them for citing you? >>AVOID SOUTH PASADENA LIKE THE PLAGUE. A PROVERBIAL 'SPEED TRAP!' (TOO >>BAD FOR THE MERCHANTS OF THAT FAIR CITY) Nobody drafted them. Lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas. > OK, so you got a ticket in SoPas, so now you're on a vendetta to > embarrass them/make them look bad/punish them for citing you? I read that there were so many flaws in this 'sting' operation that they decided to toss out all the tickets. No idea if it's true or not.  SignatureCheers, Bev xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx "Once you've provoked a few people into publicly swearing they are going to hunt you down and kill you, the thrill wears off." -Elric of Imrryr > In message > <df428e45-3329-4299-8c66-4083c35ee...@a39g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > OK, so you got a ticket in SoPas, so now you're on a vendetta to > embarrass them/make them look bad/punish them for citing you? South Pasadena can do that without my help. Are you associated with SPPD? For your information, wise guy, the officer was wrong in his 'observation.' I have plenty of ammunition (figuratively speaking, that is) to refute his silly ticket. It's called reasonable doubt. But perhaps you don't think that threshold test applies to traffic infractions. Perhaps you would like to pay a $201 bail plus $35 for the actual offense. South Pasadena is known for its aggressive traffic enforcement. So be it. But when they write tickets with feeble justification just to generate revenue to fund public safety perks like 90-100% pensions, that's where I draw the line. As to the school bus sting, I hope the whole lot (160+) of $500 citations are dismissed. Looks like the SPPD will have to go back to their bake sales. In message <23749feb-fd80-4284-bedf-c8d8f70d9c42@v23g2000pro.googlegroups.com>, >> In message >> <df428e45-3329-4299-8c66-4083c35ee...@a39g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> OK, so you got a ticket in SoPas, so now you're on a vendetta to >> embarrass them/make them look bad/punish them for citing you? >Are you associated with SPPD? Are you associated with the Special Olympics? In which event(s) are you competing? >For your information, wise guy, the officer was wrong in his >'observation.' I have plenty of ammunition (figuratively speaking, >that is) to refute his silly ticket. OK, so what's your explanation for dredging up a month-old article about a traffic sting in SoPas? And why am I a "wise guy" for asking about the obvious theme in your posts? >South Pasadena is known for its aggressive traffic enforcement. Really? I've never heard that In fact, I drove through SoPas just the other day. Not only did I not get a ticket, I didn't even see a single cop. >But when they write tickets with feeble >justification just to generate revenue to fund public safety perks >like 90-100% pensions, that's where I draw the line. And when do you plan to produce your evidence that proves that they do this? Where's the money trail that shows how traffic fines end up in the pension fund? > AVOID SOUTH PASADENA LIKE THE PLAGUE. A PROVERBIAL 'SPEED TRAP!' (TOO > BAD FOR THE MERCHANTS OF THAT FAIR CITY) > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-bus-ticketing19-2009jun19,0,6895209.story > ... > > More than 160 people received $500 traffic citations Wednesday as part > of a sting by the South Pasadena Police Department involving a decoy > school bus complete with people walking on and off the vehicle. They all deserve it. I stopped for a school bus with flashing red lights once and was almost rear-ended. The a.shole behind me even yelled at me. He shut up when I got out and pointed at the school bus' lights. > They all deserve it. I stopped for a school bus with flashing red lights > once and was almost rear-ended. The a.shole behind me even yelled at me. > He shut up when I got out and pointed at the school bus' lights. People don't care. My wife has been yelled at for not pulling forward out of the parking lot where my son used to attend school, even though she would have mowed down a kid walking to school. And this was another PARENT getting pissed. We have enough problems here with the natives being complete jerks behind the wheel, but there are a lot of kids (at this particular school) that moved up from Los Angeles, and the "I own the road" attitude seems to be somewhat worse in those people. It got so that I refused to be at the school during regular drop-off or pickup times, since people can't pull their heads from their a.ses long enough to realize that children can get hurt because if their a.shole- ness. (Sorry if it sounds like I have a chip on my shoulder, but I have several good reasons to have the chip there. This is but one.) SignatureSteve Sobol, Victorville, California, USA sjsobol@JustThe.net >People don't care. My wife has been yelled at for not pulling forward >out of the parking lot where my son used to attend school, even though [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >enough to realize that children can get hurt because if their a.shole- >ness. Here's a thought: how about letting the kids WALK to school, like I did when I was a kid? Then you wouldn't have to worry about MFFY parents and traffic jams in front of the school. > Here's a thought: how about letting the kids WALK to school, like I > did when I was a kid? Then you wouldn't have to worry about MFFY > parents and traffic jams in front of the school. Not practical, the school is a good 10-12 miles from our house. When we lived in Apple Valley, it was further. We have the kids enrolled via open enrollment, in the school district where my wife teaches. SignatureSteve Sobol, Victorville, California, USA sjsobol@JustThe.net >> Here's a thought: how about letting the kids WALK to school, like I >> did when I was a kid? Then you wouldn't have to worry about MFFY >> parents and traffic jams in front of the school. > >Not practical, the school is a good 10-12 miles from our house. !!! Yikes!!! >When we lived in Apple Valley, it was further. > >We have the kids enrolled via open enrollment, in the school district >where my wife teaches. Well, I guess you've made your lifestyle choice; now you have to lie in it. :) > <sjsobol@JustThe.net> wrote: >>scottenaztlan@yahoo.com says... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >>Not practical, the school is a good 10-12 miles from our house. Uphill both ways. > !!! Yikes!!! Don't they usually send buses for kids who live that far from school? >>When we lived in Apple Valley, it was further. And probably hotter. >>We have the kids enrolled via open enrollment, in the school district >>where my wife teaches. > > Well, I guess you've made your lifestyle choice; now you have to lie > in it. :) The world is full of a.sholes and most of them, at least in the USA, drive. Unless somebody can figure out how to lock all the a.sholes away in some sort of prison/resort (the humane alternative to what they really deserve) we just have to learn to deal with them -- unpleasant though it may be. SignatureCheers, Bev =/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\= "Sure, everyone's in favor of saving Hitler's brain, but when you put it into the body of a great white shark, suddenly you're a madman." --Futurama >> <sjsobol@JustThe.net> wrote: >>>scottenaztlan@yahoo.com says... [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Don't they usually send buses for kids who live that far from school? This is California. Ah-nold is taking so much money away from schools that they can no longer afford buses. >The world is full of a.sholes and most of them, at least in the USA, drive. >Unless somebody can figure out how to lock all the a.sholes away in some sort >of prison/resort (the humane alternative to what they really deserve) we just >have to learn to deal with them -- unpleasant though it may be. In SoCal, you can't get anywhere without a car. If we took away the a.sholes' licenses and impounded their cars whever they were caught driving without licenses, that would be the equivalent of home confinement. > This is California. Ah-nold is taking so much money away from schools > that they can no longer afford buses. Heh. While I agree with you, your point is irrelevant. As parents who place our school-age kids in another school district through an inter- district transfer, the onus is on us to transport the kids to school, and as far as I'm concerned, that's exactly the way it should be. SignatureSteve Sobol, Victorville, California, USA sjsobol@JustThe.net >> This is California. Ah-nold is taking so much money away from schools >> that they can no longer afford buses. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >district transfer, the onus is on us to transport the kids to school, >and as far as I'm concerned, that's exactly the way it should be. I agree, but that doesn't explain why all the other parents are driving their kids to that school. I *guarantee* you that 99% of the kids being driven every morning live close enough to walk to school. > I agree, but that doesn't explain why all the other parents are > driving their kids to that school. I *guarantee* you that 99% of the > kids being driven every morning live close enough to walk to school. Victor Valley Union High School District charges parents to bus their kids to school. As far as I know, this is a blatant violation of No Child Left Behind. But they were doing it a few years ago, too, before the current round of cuts. Snowline Unified, Apple Valley Unified and Hesperia Unified do not charge AFAIK, and Adelanto doesn't yet have a high school. SignatureSteve Sobol, Victorville, California, USA sjsobol@JustThe.net > scottenaztlan@yahoo.com says... > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > But they were doing it a few years ago, too, before the current round of > cuts. I'd be willing to bet that they'd cave if anybody pushed it. They used to charge for various "extras" here until some parents made a big stink about it. Same for "special education". Hey, which is more important, that our kids learn to read or that the teachers have conference days in nice hotels with good food in nice beach towns at taxpayer expense? > Snowline Unified, Apple Valley Unified and Hesperia Unified do not > charge AFAIK, and Adelanto doesn't yet have a high school. SignatureCheers, Bev ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ To define recursion, we must first define recursion. >Victor Valley Union High School District charges parents to bus their >kids to school. As far as I know, this is a blatant violation of No >Child Left Behind. Even if the costs are passed directly along to the parents, busing is still going to be cheaper than being a personal chauffeur to your kids. Lemme guess: it's not COOL to ride the bus, so the kids refuse to do it, right? > Even if the costs are passed directly along to the parents, busing is > still going to be cheaper than being a personal chauffeur to your > kids. I can't reply to that, as I don't recall what the costs *are.* Our kids walk to high school. > Lemme guess: it's not COOL to ride the bus, so the kids refuse to do > it, right? Which kids are you referring to? *MY* kids are close enough to their *high school* that they can walk. The school I was talking about that was far away, was the K-8 school in my wife's district. Neither of my older two kids attend school there anymore. SignatureSteve Sobol, Victorville, California, USA sjsobol@JustThe.net >> Lemme guess: it's not COOL to ride the bus, so the kids refuse to do >> it, right? > >Which kids are you referring to? The ones who could ride the bus (or walk), but who are getting rides in Mommy's FUV instead and which in turn causes the congestion and poor driving behavior you noted at the start of this sub-thread. > >> Lemme guess: it's not COOL to ride the bus, so the kids refuse to do > >> it, right? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > in Mommy's FUV instead and which in turn causes the congestion and > poor driving behavior you noted at the start of this sub-thread. I agree that more kids could probably walk. I don't know how many of those kids had a say in the matter. In many cases, I would bet that the parents make that decision themselves. SignatureSteve Sobol, Victorville, California, USA sjsobol@JustThe.net > <bashley101+et@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > This is California. Ah-nold is taking so much money away from schools > that they can no longer afford buses. Why bus a kid to a school that can't teach him anything? If the unions got class size down to 10 they still wouldn't be able to teach the kids to read. >>The world is full of a.sholes and most of them, at least in the USA, drive. >>Unless somebody can figure out how to lock all the a.sholes away in some sort [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > driving without licenses, that would be the equivalent of home > confinement. Your point being...? SignatureCheers, Bev =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- If he had any brains, he'd take them out and play with them. >>>The world is full of a.sholes and most of them, at least in the USA, drive. >>>Unless somebody can figure out how to lock all the a.sholes away in some sort [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Your point being...? Taking away someone's ability to drive is effectively the same as locking them up. > <bashley101+et@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Taking away someone's ability to drive is effectively the same as > locking them up. I fail to see a problem here... SignatureCheers, Bev ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ To define recursion, we must first define recursion. >> <bashley101+et@gmail.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >I fail to see a problem here... I didn't say it was a problem. I was merely making an observation. > Why bus a kid to a school that can't teach him anything? If the unions got > class size down to 10 they still wouldn't be able to teach the kids to read. I may be biased, but.. I have a huge problem with that completely outrageous generalization. SignatureSteve Sobol, Victorville, California, USA sjsobol@JustThe.net > bashley101+et@gmail.com says... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I may be biased, but.. I have a huge problem with that completely outrageous > generalization. I understand that, and I realize that there MUST be some good teachers in the system (I know one, so I'm willing to believe that Mrs. Sobol is also one). OTOH, I look at the Pasadena school system and see that it's about as bad as it can get without actually shooting the students. I'm willing to let the school board share the blame, maybe even the larger part of it, but that doesn't make things any better for the hapless kids whose parents can't (or don't realize why it's necessary to) send them to a private school. SignatureCheers, Bev ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ To define recursion, we must first define recursion. > > I may be biased, but.. I have a huge problem with that completely outrageous > > generalization. > > I understand that, and I realize that there MUST be some good teachers in the > system (I know one, so I'm willing to believe that Mrs. Sobol is also one). Without going into a huge post about how amazing a teacher my wife is... :) She does a great job of reaching her students, which makes it a lot easier to educate them. > OTOH, I look at the Pasadena school system and see that it's about as bad as it > can get without actually shooting the students. I'm willing to let the school > board share the blame, maybe even the larger part of it, but that doesn't make > things any better for the hapless kids whose parents can't (or don't realize > why it's necessary to) send them to a private school. Well, certain school districts are in halfway-decent shape and others aren't. Don't even get me started about Cleveland Metro School District. They stopped caring about the kids a long time ago. At least the board did. SignatureSteve Sobol, Victorville, California, USA sjsobol@JustThe.net > bashley101+et@gmail.com says... > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > :) She does a great job of reaching her students, which makes it a lot > easier to educate them. It's probably essential. And it's not easy to describe/quantify/whatever. One thing I do know, though -- a teacher without a sense of humor that the kids can appreciate is doomed :-( >> OTOH, I look at the Pasadena school system and see that it's about as bad as it >> can get without actually shooting the students. I'm willing to let the school [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > They stopped caring about the kids a long time ago. At least the board > did. My daughter lives in a 'nice' school district. Reasonably well-to-do educated residents, new schools, etc. She was a kick-a.s PTA President for several years until she burned out. She said their system was going downhill too and it had nothing to do with the money. SignatureCheers, Bev ================================================================== "America is at an awkward stage: it is too late to work within the system, but it is too early to shoot the bastards." -Claire Wolfe > My daughter lives in a 'nice' school district. Reasonably well-to-do educated > residents, new schools, etc. She was a kick-a.s PTA President for several > years until she burned out. She said their system was going downhill too and > it had nothing to do with the money. I bet a lot of it has to do with NCLB... SignatureSteve Sobol, Victorville, California, USA sjsobol@JustThe.net > bashley101+et@gmail.com says... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I bet a lot of it has to do with NCLB... There is that, of course, but the caliber of the teachers was decreasing too. A friend teaches in super-upscale area filled with movie stars, although not all of the students are celebrispawn. He says there are some kids who just don't want to bother learning anything. Period. Grades mean nothing to them. Some are and some are not stupid, they're just not interested. I can't see a way to keep kids like that from dragging down the rest of the class as long as you require them to be "educated". It's possible for fabulous teachers to motivate SOME previously-unmotivated kids, but there's some not-minuscule number who are simply millstones doomed to living on their trust funds, welfare, or their jobs at the car wash. Perhaps a major in janitorial work... SignatureCheers, Bev *************************************************************** When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a thumb. >A friend teaches in super-upscale area filled with movie stars, although not >all of the students are celebrispawn. He says there are some kids who just [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I can't see a way to keep kids like that from dragging down the rest of the >class as long as you require them to be "educated". There used to be a way: it's called FLUNKING them and holding them back a grade. We can't do that anymore, of course, because it would "stigmatize" the poor little darlings to be held back while all their peers advance. The irony is, a little bit of stigma might be just what these little punks need to become interested in learning. > Don't they usually send buses for kids who live that far from school? No, it's up to us to transport because we *chose* to put our son at that particular school. Really, it's no big deal, it's on the way from the day care to the school where Sarah works. My wife's district does have kids way out in the middle of the desert, miles from any of the schools, and yes, those kids *do* get busing to the schools. > >>When we lived in Apple Valley, it was further. > > And probably hotter. Yes, in general. But only a little bit. :) > The world is full of a.sholes and most of them, at least in the USA, drive. > Unless somebody can figure out how to lock all the a.sholes away in some sort > of prison/resort (the humane alternative to what they really deserve) we just > have to learn to deal with them -- unpleasant though it may be. Yup. SignatureSteve Sobol, Victorville, California, USA sjsobol@JustThe.net > bashley101+et@gmail.com says... > My wife's district does have kids way out in the middle of the desert, miles > from any of the schools, and yes, those kids *do* get busing to the schools. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Yes, in general. But only a little bit. :) OK, I missed the 'Victorville' thing :-( SignatureCheers, Bev =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- If he had any brains, he'd take them out and play with them. > > <sjsobol@JustThe.net> wrote: > >>scottenaztlan@yahoo.com says... [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > of prison/resort (the humane alternative to what they really deserve) we just > have to learn to deal with them -- unpleasant though it may be. Now, now. We don't call them a.sholes. They are MFFYs. >> The world is full of a.sholes and most of them, at least in the USA, >> drive. Unless somebody can figure out how to lock all the a.sholes away in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Now, now. We don't call them a.sholes. They are MFFYs. Outsiders don't understand "MFFYs" but everybody understands a.sholes. SignatureCheers, Bev =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- If he had any brains, he'd take them out and play with them. >>> The world is full of a.sholes and most of them, at least in the USA, >>> drive. Unless somebody can figure out how to lock all the a.sholes away in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Outsiders don't understand "MFFYs" but everybody understands a.sholes. We need to edumacate them. "MFFY" needs to become a mainstream term. :) > <bashley101+et@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > We need to edumacate them. "MFFY" needs to become a mainstream term. The danger, of course, is that they will think it's a GOOD thing. SignatureCheers, Bev ================================================================== "America is at an awkward stage: it is too late to work within the system, but it is too early to shoot the bastards." -Claire Wolfe > In message <h42o17$5g...@news.eternal-september.org>, The Real Bev > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > We need to edumacate them. "MFFY" needs to become a mainstream term. > :) Whenever I see a news article about someone who is "troubled" I immediately translate that to "a.shole." "a.shole actress Lindsay Lohan was caught driving her..." you get the idea. jg -- @home.com is bogus. Then there's the old routine about confusing gun and a.s. "Officer, I was robbed by a guy with a gun in his a.s!" > >We have the kids enrolled via open enrollment, in the school district > >where my wife teaches. > > Well, I guess you've made your lifestyle choice; now you have to lie > in it. :) I really don't see what the problem is. Our day care is out there too. Plus, my son, who used to go to that school, is entering high school this fall, and our high school is (literally) a 5-10 minute walk from our house. SignatureSteve Sobol, Victorville, California, USA sjsobol@JustThe.net >> >We have the kids enrolled via open enrollment, in the school district >> >where my wife teaches. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >I really don't see what the problem is. Our day care is out there too. The problem is your entire family is enslaved to the automobile. Your kids can't go to school without a ride. All their friends from school live at least 10 miles away from your house, so after-school activity is limited to "play dates" which also require car rides. Of course, nobody these days seems to see any of that as a problem. >Plus, my son, who used to go to that school, is entering high school >this fall, and our high school is (literally) a 5-10 minute walk from >our house. Well that's a plus, even if he'll only be walking there for 2 out of the 4 years. :) > The problem is your entire family is enslaved to the automobile. Your > kids can't go to school without a ride. All their friends from school > live at least 10 miles away from your house, so after-school activity > is limited to "play dates" which also require car rides. Of course, > nobody these days seems to see any of that as a problem. We don't have a whole lot of options up here. The area is too big to make walking practical to most places, and mass transit routes only run once an hour. SignatureSteve Sobol, Victorville, California, USA sjsobol@JustThe.net >> The problem is your entire family is enslaved to the automobile. Your >> kids can't go to school without a ride. All their friends from school [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >We don't have a whole lot of options up here. Yeah, that's what everybody says when I bring this up. Their house is too far away from everything - and they say it as if they had absolutely no say in where their house is located. Somehow *I* managed to end up with a house that's within walking distance of schools, shopping, a medical/dental office building, bus routes, and a commuter train station, but nobody else can manage to do it. :) > Yeah, that's what everybody says when I bring this up. Their house is > too far away from everything - and they say it as if they had [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > routes, and a commuter train station, but nobody else can manage to do > it. :) I'm sure you have more options in O.C. than I do here. Are you done explaining how much of a jerk I am for not using mass transit? SignatureSteve Sobol, Victorville, California, USA sjsobol@JustThe.net >> Yeah, that's what everybody says when I bring this up. Their house is >> too far away from everything - and they say it as if they had [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I'm sure you have more options in O.C. than I do here. Are you done >explaining how much of a jerk I am for not using mass transit? Did I call you a jerk? SoCal freeways - especially the 91 - are clogged to the breaking point by people who simply had no choice but to buy that 3000 SF McMansion in the IE and now commute to their jobs in OC for 2 hours per day. THOSE people are jerks, and their quality of life is suffering mightily for it. In most cases, people who don't have transportation options don't have them because transit options were not high on their priority list when they were house-shopping. They actually DID have the option of choosing a house with transit options and high walkability, but opted instead for a larger house on the urban fringe. The irony is they have less time to spend in those nice, big houses because they're busy schlepping all over SoCal in their cars. > >> Yeah, that's what everybody says when I bring this up. Their house is > >> too far away from everything - and they say it as if they had [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > in OC for 2 hours per day. THOSE people are jerks, and their quality > of life is suffering mightily for it. You did not *call me* a jerk, no. But you keep on carping at me about how there are alternatives. I'm reading between the lines. In fact, there really aren't any viable alternatives here. But, you also seem to keep forgetting where I live. I readily acknowledge the traffic problem down the hill, but I also stay well away from the biggest problems. I have driven the 91 exactly three (or *maybe* four) times in the six years I've lived in Southern California. I avoid it like the plague; the 405 too. I take the freeway to work when I have to be in the office, and to client's sites when I have to be onsite. Other than that, I don't actually *use* the freeways much. So, painting me with the same brush as (probably) millions of Angelenos is pointless. SignatureSteve Sobol, Victorville, California, USA sjsobol@JustThe.net >> >I'm sure you have more options in O.C. than I do here. Are you done >> >explaining how much of a jerk I am for not using mass transit? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >But you keep on carping at me about how there are alternatives. I'm >reading between the lines. Don't be so defensive. :) My comments about those fools who clog up the 91 every morning and evening were not directed at you. > Don't be so defensive. :) My comments about those fools who clog up > the 91 every morning and evening were not directed at you. Cool. As long as you understand that I don't use the freeways at all on more than an occasional basis (except about 8 miles of I-15 on the days I need to go into the office), we're fine. :) SignatureSteve Sobol, Victorville, California, USA sjsobol@JustThe.net >> Don't be so defensive. :) My comments about those fools who clog up >> the 91 every morning and evening were not directed at you. > >Cool. As long as you understand that I don't use the freeways at all on >more than an occasional basis (except about 8 miles of I-15 on the days >I need to go into the office), we're fine. :) There's nothing wrong with living in the IE if you also work in the IE. It's only a problem when you move to the IE because you can afford a larger house there and then spend so much time commuting to your job in LA or OC that you have no time left to actually spend in your nice big house. :) > In message <MPG.24d0437b5ce88b29989...@news.justthe.net>, Steve Sobol > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > less time to spend in those nice, big houses because they're busy > schlepping all over SoCal in their cars. I actually bought my first house bicycling distance from my job. I had the house a lot longer than the job (and panic-sold the '63 Vette when I lost the job, dammit). That's when I explicitly decided it's stupid to site your house because of a job. A couple years later (mid-80's) I discovered I could live anywhere because of telecommuting, and decided to live where I want, and only secondarily choose commuting as an issue. As it turns out, telecommuting sucked (this was before starbucks and wireless, of course), and face time is important. But I've had a dozen different jobs, and just two houses (a quarter mile apart, as it happened, since I found such a nice spot, after travelling all over), since then. Not counting investment houses, of course. Those have all been right on bus lines. Poor people love that, because they truly don't have transportation options. Some of my tenants have been there literally for generations. And some of them wind up with worse commutes than me. I can't see paying $400K for a tiny 2 bedroom condo walking distance from my work, unless the pets die, the wife leaves, and my life generally turns into a bad country western song. Then perhaps I'd live on a boat anyways. I admit the schlep is old. But every time I think about it, and look at the realistic options, I like my house better. I was cracked up by the salesman who sold me the Chrysler, and then gave me a ride as we shuffled cars about - he was totally enamored of my huge driveway. Something like that happens every time someone sees my house for the first time - I've gotten used to it, I live there, but newbies are amazed by things I take for granted. Like my basement... and of course, it's coastal, not the IE, so I'm not a jerk. :-) Funny thing is, a couple of my old buddies from high school, both car guys (one is an editor for Petersen publications) live with their families near my work. Small world. But we all bought before the bubble. jg -- @home.com is bogus. Yay Stu! http://4wheeloffroad.automotive.com/1164/1979-ford-bronco/index.html In message <b8065b2f-7b9a-4700-a5a4-26568e705009@18g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, >I actually bought my first house bicycling distance from my job. I >had the house a lot longer than the job (and panic-sold the '63 Vette >when I lost the job, dammit). That's when I explicitly decided it's >stupid to site your house because of a job. I agree. Most people change jobs much more often than they change houses, especially if they are homeowners. Selecting a house that's well located WRT everyday needs, shopping, transit, schools, etc., even if it's a little farther away from your current job, makes a lot more sense. >A couple years later >(mid-80's) I discovered I could live anywhere because of >telecommuting, and decided to live where I want, and only secondarily >choose commuting as an issue. Telecommuting is at least as ephemeral as the job it's attached to. I telecommuted full time for 2 years, but when that contract ended I had to return to an on-site position. That was six years ago, and I haven't had an opportunity to telecommute since. In my experience, most employers assume that if they can't see you working, then you aren't. That mentality is pretty tough to overcome. > Telecommuting is at least as ephemeral as the job it's attached to. I > telecommuted full time for 2 years, but when that contract ended I had > to return to an on-site position. That was six years ago, and I > haven't had an opportunity to telecommute since. In my experience, > most employers assume that if they can't see you working, then you > aren't. That mentality is pretty tough to overcome. There's a reason for that. My experience as a manager was that those who telecommute were almost always less productive than those who didn't. Those who worked regularly in the office always seemed to get there projects done faster than the telecommuters. Also the telecommuters tended to be less accessible via phone. Not all the telecommuters but definitely a good majority of them. - Peter > In message > <b8065b2f-7b9a-4700-a5a4-26568e705...@18g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > transit, schools, etc., even if it's a little farther away from your > current job, makes a lot more sense. In my experience, it's been a _lot_ farther away. That's not my choice, so I rationalize it as getting OC or urban SD wages with sub- rural SD expenses :-) As far as everyday needs, it's near perfection. It's technically in the county, so it's got the rural flavor and large lots (a few areas of .5 acre lots from boom times, but mostly over 1 or 2 acres, depending on where exactly), and yet, only a couple of miles to all the big chains and little stores and cheap day labor and excellent restaurants. Sometimes I miss not having sewers, though, and it is a little too close to the barrio - that's both a plus and minus. And of course, the expected issues with wild animals, bugs 'n bees, odd smells from nurseries, people maintaining their yards or working in their garages with loud equipment, drought, fires, old people who think its ok to let their dogs roam, kids with no helmets riding offroad vehicles on the road etc. There's a lot of narrow private roads with hundreds of houses that will just be a double-disaster trying to get firetrucks up while people get out. Check out the house next door to my old one (zestimate a bit off, to say the least, or if it isn't, I'll take ten): http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/birds-eye-view-map/16628415_zpid/#birds-eye-view > >A couple years later > >(mid-80's) I discovered I could live anywhere because of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > most employers assume that if they can't see you working, then you > aren't. That mentality is pretty tough to overcome. My boss is pretty cool about it, sometimes I don't telecommute because I know if I'm home, I will get the honey-do's. But mostly I need info that doesn't seem to get to me at home, and I just can't trust stupid cox.net (or any of the others) to keep connected. Cell service can be iffy, there's a hill between me and the nearest tower -I'm definitely curious about femtocells (as if they won't suffer the same problems as my cable and phone...). I was considering just Fridays, since the amtrak is useless and 5 worse in the PM, but changing my daily habits has its own issues. There's also the issue of when I'm programming, if I don't have to leave at a certain time, I may not stop, messing up my internal clock for days afterward. That's for the young. I'm more productive telecommuting when it's my usual schedule (or if I have some particular motivation, like a weekend major upgrade), but I can see Peter's point. There is a really nice beach out there... My Irvine car had a flat Monday morning in the Irvine transit center parking garage. Two utility razor blades deep in the tread. I sure as hell hope it was just bad luck, not some nutcase going around taking a dislike to commuters. jg -- @home.com is bogus. Where I often walk: http://www.carlsbadistan.com/?p=2026 http://activerain.com/image_store/uploads/2/5/0/6/9/ar12463372496052.jpg >>> The problem is your entire family is enslaved to the automobile. Your >>> kids can't go to school without a ride. All their friends from school [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > routes, and a commuter train station, but nobody else can manage to do > it. :) I'd prefer to live at least half a mile from the next habitation and as far back from the street as I could get, wouldn't you? With a 6-foot fence so I could actually use the front yard. Big trees. Quiet, no annoying people to be annoyed by, you can probably see the stars on clear nights and a whole lot of other good things. The price involves doing more driving than the sardines packed into apartments do. It would be worth it. SignatureCheers, Bev +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Little Mary took her skis upon the snow to frisk. Wasn't she a silly girl her little * ? >I'd prefer to live at least half a mile from the next habitation and as far >back from the street as I could get, wouldn't you? With a 6-foot fence so I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >It would be worth it. I used to live in a place like that. My lot was 1.1 acres in a neighborhood of ~1 acre lots. It was on a hill, and the street was at the foot of that hill, so from the street you could only see the roof of the house. The houses on my street backed up to a large open space and an elementary school. It was peaceful and quiet, just as you imagine it would be. The neighbors were far away in all directions, with plenty of buffer zone around you. And it had a great city lights view. That's the good part. The bad part was it was a 1-mile walk to the nearest store. It was also a 1-mile walk to get to the nearest bus stop, and that bus only ran twice per (week)day: one run into the city in the morning, and one run out of the city in the evening. That was the most auto-dependent I have ever been in my entire life. Our next-door neighbors were an elderly couple in their 80s. At one point the husband has a relapse of his lung cancer, so the wife was taking care of him. He could no longer drive, so she did all the driving. Then the wife fell sick, and she was temporarily unable to drive as well. Suddenly they had to depend totally on other people to drive them places, take them grocery shopping, take them to the doctor, etc. Their little corner of Paradise turned into a prison overnight. Bottom line, a little country estate like that is nice to have, as long as you can still drive (or can afford to hire a chauffeur). > In message <MPG.24cfb455f11facda989...@news.justthe.net>, Steve Sobol > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > routes, and a commuter train station, but nobody else can manage to do > it. :) There was a period of time I thought I was sorry I didn't opt for the cul-de-sac with kids and stuff, but after meeting some of those people and their neighbors, I'm glad I went more upscale. And I'm REALLY glad I'm not one of those poor suckers who've discovered how really annoying it is to have a train blast its horn every 15 minutes outside your house ( http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/jul/19/1n19horn22185-trains-horn-has -locals-sounding/?uniontrib ) . I do wish public transportation was closer than a couple of miles though. I could ride my bike to the Sprinter, take that to the Amtrak, etc., but I'd have to leave so early it really makes more sense to just drive to the O'side transit center. There are some nice places to live near there, but not for kids. I'm glad I'm not one of those poor suckers who became reliant on the bus, only to have the bus district cancel the route due to state funding issues. There is a school bus that stops across from my house, but it doesn't go to my kids schools. My kids go to magnet schools, which are an odd bit of funding creativity. Extra money from the gummint, makes the school more desirable, makes the crappy neighborhood more desirable, neighborhood improves, everybody's happy. In a practical sense, the actually smart and motivated kids get segregated into good classes, and the, er, others, get what their... well, finishing that sentence is left as an exercise. Of course, one of the schools became dependent on state programs, and they're getting boned, or deboned, as the case may be, it's still up in the air. The magnet high school that is currently under construction looks like it won't be as good as the old high school (yes Prejean went there...) for the gifted students. The principal makes all the difference. School funding... Did I mention the governor is troubled? Someone just got murdered in westchester, near my old high school. jg -- @home.com is bogus. I once drove a beauty queen on my Corvette (that is, she was sitting where the t-top would be) for the homecoming parade. As we were waiting in line, she asked if she had time to pee... |
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