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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Car Audio / September 2007

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Combining capacitors of different sizes?

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Eric Pulliam - 26 Sep 2007 23:32 GMT
Is there a problem with using the bars to connect multiple caps that
arent all the same size?  They range from 1F to 1.5F.  I was wondering
if since they are different in size they probably have different
charge and discharge rates, would one be discharging into another
possibly causing an overcharge or damage?  There are 4 caps total and
the bars connect them all together.  Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!
Eric   epulliam at ameritech dot net
arthur - 26 Sep 2007 23:54 GMT
Connecting same trype capacitors in parallel reslults in adding
their values together.  Connecting them in series causes the
total value to decrease ( the math is more complex ).

All you people keep thinking of capacitors in terms of DC which is a
static view and invalid in a dymanic circuit.

It should work fine.  You are lowering the operating frequency in
a low pass filter.

arthur

>Is there a problem with using the bars to connect multiple caps that
>arent all the same size?  They range from 1F to 1.5F.  I was wondering
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Thanks!
>Eric   epulliam at ameritech dot net
Matt Ion - 27 Sep 2007 08:31 GMT
> Connecting same trype capacitors in parallel reslults in adding
> their values together.  Connecting them in series causes the
> total value to decrease ( the math is more complex ).

Not all that complex... 1/C1 + 1/C2 + 1/Cx... = 1/Ctotal: just invert
the values, add them together, and flip them back.  If you have a 1F and
two 2F caps in series, you'd get 1/1 + 1/2 + 1/2 = 2/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 = 4/2
... invert to 2/4, and you end up with 1/2F total.

The only time you'd really want to do this is if the caps you have are
rated too low a voltage for your circuit, as the voltage ratings are
additive for series-connected caps (ie. two 6VDC caps in series will
give you a total breakdown of 12VDC).  Not likely to be an issue with
car-stereo caps.

> All you people keep thinking of capacitors in terms of DC which is a
> static view and invalid in a dymanic circuit.

I dunno about your car, but mine operates on DC voltage...

> It should work fine.  You are lowering the operating frequency in
> a low pass filter.

Essentially, yes.

The REAL question, is whether you actually need ANY caps at all, let
alone a shitload of them.  The answer in MOST cases is, "not really."

>> Is there a problem with using the bars to connect multiple caps that
>> arent all the same size?  They range from 1F to 1.5F.  I was wondering
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> Thanks!
>> Eric   epulliam at ameritech dot net
arthur - 27 Sep 2007 09:23 GMT
Alternators output A/C
igition systems are A/C
Sound waves are A/C

what's your issues?

arthur

>I dunno about your car, but mine operates on DC voltage...
Matt Ion - 27 Sep 2007 18:14 GMT
> Alternators output A/C

Alternators output AC... the ONLY place the AC goes is into a regulator
that outputs DC.  Everything else in the car's system runs on DC.

> igition systems are A/C

Wrong.  The closest thing in it to AC is the spark system itself, which
is pulsed DC.

> Sound waves are A/C

Irrelevant.

> what's your issues?

Your supposition is incorrect.  The kind of caps we're talking about
here are used in the DC circuit powering the amp.

> arthur
>
>> I dunno about your car, but mine operates on DC voltage...
arthur - 27 Sep 2007 20:05 GMT
Forget it.  I obviously did not understand the question.
As an aside, an auto battery already acts as a huge capacitor and as
such does not work well filtering high frequencies.

arthur

>Alternators output A/C
>igition systems are A/C
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>>I dunno about your car, but mine operates on DC voltage...
MOSFET - 28 Sep 2007 06:32 GMT
> All you people keep thinking of capacitors in terms of DC which is a
> static view and invalid in a dymanic circuit.

LOL.
He said "static" in relation to capacitors (said in the voice of Butthead).

MOSFET
Matt Ion - 28 Sep 2007 08:08 GMT
>> All you people keep thinking of capacitors in terms of DC which is a
>> static view and invalid in a dymanic circuit.
>>
> LOL.
> He said "static" in relation to capacitors (said in the voice of Butthead).

Huh huh huh.  Uh... that was cool.
Kirby - 27 Sep 2007 19:03 GMT
I would stay away from the capacitors completely. Get a second battery. A
cheap one, or good one will do the same, if not more help to your system.
Not to mention it doesnt need to be charged as fast as a cap, so it takes a
BIT of strain off of your alternator.
buddha73 - 27 Sep 2007 16:39 GMT
Kirby Wrote:
> I would stay away from the capacitors completely. Get a second battery
> A
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> takes a
> BIT of strain off of your alternator.

wrong, capacitors charge very quickly, batteries would supply you wit
more amperage, but only 12.5v.  now getting a nice high outpu
alternator would be better than a cap or a battery.  adding a secon
battery would put way more strain on your alternator so you'd probabl
have to upgrade that too if you get another battery

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Kirby - 28 Sep 2007 08:24 GMT
well my alternator is holding up very well for being a stock 55 amp. I have
3 batteries, and drawing a max of 500 amps. I say that number VERY
generously.
e-nigma - 30 Sep 2007 00:29 GMT
> well my alternator is holding up very well for being a stock 55 amp. I
> have 3 batteries, and drawing a max of 500 amps. I say that number VERY
> generously.

It wont last long....
Kirby - 30 Sep 2007 03:19 GMT
it's lasted a while already.
G - 27 Sep 2007 19:24 GMT
>Is there a problem with using the bars to connect multiple caps that
>arent all the same size?  They range from 1F to 1.5F.  I was wondering
>if since they are different in size they probably have different
>charge and discharge rates, would one be discharging into another
>possibly causing an overcharge or damage?  There are 4 caps total and
>the bars connect them all together.  Any help would be appreciated.

If you hang caps of different sizes off a bar, its probably going to look
pretty weird, or perhaps the bottoms are in a well where you can't see them.

You will have no problems regardless.
Cap value is not controlling discharge rates. ESR is. The cap needs to be
measured for ESR. The manufacturer should give that figure.
Cap values means nothing if ESR is high. A very high ESR wold be OK to use
feeding a headunits keep alive voltage. I actually did that once on my boat.

greg
Matt Ion - 28 Sep 2007 03:12 GMT
>> Is there a problem with using the bars to connect multiple caps that
>> arent all the same size?  They range from 1F to 1.5F.  I was wondering
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Cap values means nothing if ESR is high. A very high ESR wold be OK to use
> feeding a headunits keep alive voltage. I actually did that once on my boat.

Cap value is DIRECTLY controlling the discharge rate.  T=RC, one of the
most basic formulas in electronics: time = resistance times capacitance.
Christopher "Torroid" Ott - 28 Sep 2007 00:51 GMT
> Is there a problem with using the bars to connect multiple caps that
> arent all the same size?  They range from 1F to 1.5F.  I was wondering
> if since they are different in size they probably have different
> charge and discharge rates, would one be discharging into another
> possibly causing an overcharge or damage?  There are 4 caps total and
> the bars connect them all together.  Any help would be appreciated.

The short answer is that it'll be fine. Yes, they would have different
individual time constants if they weren't tied together with a buss bar.
Since they are, we can view the group as one large capacitor. The values
will add together. For automotive use the individual ESR's can be ignored.

From an electrical standpoint the caps should be placed close to your amps,
since they are what pulls the instantaneous loads. Alternatively, I've seen
several mounted under the hood, and know for a fact that it's also
effective. The very best SQ car I've ever seen was Scott Buwaldas 240SX. It
had (3) 1F caps under the hood, approx 10 feet from the amp rack. He felt it
made a significant improvement. This was a world class SQ vehicle, and
Buwalda was neurotic about the quality of his system.

Chris
Matt Ion - 28 Sep 2007 03:29 GMT
> Is there a problem with using the bars to connect multiple caps that
> arent all the same size?  They range from 1F to 1.5F.  I was wondering
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Thanks!
> Eric   epulliam at ameritech dot net

Alright, there's a whole bunch of goofiness and misinformation going on
in this thread, so let's clarify a few things (all of which have been in
the FAQ for over a decade):

1. The single cheapest, simplest upgrade you can make to your car's
electrical system is the wiring; specifically, the wires connecting the
battery to the chassis, the engine block to the chassis, and the engine
block to the battery.  It doesn't matter how big your power wire is from
your battery to your amps if your ground path is squeezed down into a
little dinky 14ga. jumper.

2. EFFECTIVE electrical system upgrades (after the wiring upgrades) are
done in the following order:

 - 1. high-output alternator.  Caps and batteries can only store energy.
      That energy has to come from somewhere in the first place, and
      that place is your alternator.  If your system is sucking more
      juice than your alternator can provide, then any other "fixes"
      will at best buy you a little time.

 - 2. high-capacity battery.  Preferably a separate, dedicated battery
      for your system, using a battery isolator (the kind you find in
      RV stores).  Remember that cars have batteries in the first place
      for one reason: to crank the starter.  Running accessories with
      the engine off, and backing up clocks and station memories, are
      secondary.  Once your engine is running, your alternator should
      be providing all the power needed for your car's systems,
      including your stereo system, and to recharge the battery from
      whatever drain it sustained with the engine off.  A separate
      battery for the stereo system will ensure that you're never
      stuck anywhere because of cranking your system for too long
      with the engine off.

 - 3. capacitors.  Actually, this one comes a very distant three.
      Throwing a shitload of capacitance at your system will really
      make little or no difference unless you're REALLY pulling a
      lot of amperage, and even then, it's REALLY only useful for
      very brief moments.  Given the resistance of the wire feeding
      it charging power FROM THE ALTERNATOR (NOT the battery), a
      cap will typically recharge far slower than it discharged,
      and if you're running sustained long, low, droning notes, it
      will never have a chance to recharge, and thus not provide any
      benefit.

90% of guys who throw a bunch of caps at their system because some joker
told them it would "help them hit harder" are wasting their money,
especially since they've done none of the other upgrades that will
really facilitate the caps being of any benefit.
 
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