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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Car Audio / December 2003Directed Amplifiers
I just seen the 2003 Directed amplifiers at their website. I hate to say it, but they look like Alpine V12 knock-offs. Maybe like old Alpines. They look nothing like the current Alpines. Not that there's anything wrong with that. A bunch of amps looked just like that in the early and mid 90's. Paul Vina > I just seen the 2003 Directed amplifiers at their website. I hate to say it, > but they look like Alpine V12 knock-offs. could have something to do with us having spent more on the insides than the outsides, too... JD or not >Maybe like old Alpines. They look nothing like the current Alpines. Not >that there's anything wrong with that. A bunch of amps looked just like [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I can see spending more time in the insides the outsides, fitting an Orion or PPI mainboard into an Alpine case is not an easy task. >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >--------------090001030608000608000608 [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >JD >or not What the hell would we want to do that for? Product cloning is for pussies, and we were shipping the Directed amps before we even bought ADST. At least, the PCB designs - the mechanical design changed in 2002 at CES which was a month and half after the acquisition. But I'm not offended, it's a very common misconception. I am however thinking you haven't ever looked very close at any PCB's for the three brands in question. Actually, if you want to know the real story, we paid a top industrial designer for both the Directed and the Viper amps mechanicals that year... but Viper was having its big launch so we intentionally dialed back the Directed to a more conservative look so Viper would be the attention-getter. JD >I can see spending more time in the insides the outsides, fitting an Orion or >PPI mainboard into an Alpine case is not an easy task. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >> John, I know their not a clone, I just wanted to hear your 2 cents. But they do look like the older Apline V12's. >What the hell would we want to do that for? Product cloning is for >pussies, and we were shipping the Directed amps before we even bought [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >>> >>> > John, I know their not a clone, I just wanted to hear your 2 cents. But they > do look like the older Apline V12's. ppi amps look like mufflers... does that make them mufflers? -- sancho the f.ck did i put that tylenol? ok, THAT was funny!! LMAO! Paul Vina > > John, I know their not a clone, I just wanted to hear your 2 cents. But > they [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > sancho > the f.ck did i put that tylenol? the sancho... just when you think he's dead, he pops up on the comedy circuit JD >ok, THAT was funny!! LMAO! > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > He does have a gift...  SignatureJohn Spagnolo - teamROCS #016 Multi Media Xpress Car Audio www.mmxpress.com "It's about the music stupid!" John "Batvette" Lucier 98' R.A.C. FAQ: http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/ JL Audio Tech Section: http://www.jlaudio.com/tutorials MMXpress Tech Section: http://www.mmxpress.com/technical/ > ok, THAT was funny!! LMAO! > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > sancho > > the f.ck did i put that tylenol? > > John, I know their not a clone, I just wanted to hear your 2 cents. But > they [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > sancho > the f.ck did i put that tylenol? Actually, I always thought PPI amps resembled the photon torpedos from Star Trek... interesting ... wait'll you see the new stuff :-) JD > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > oh boy.. can't wait, whooo hoooo.... FHLH.... can I have my black and silver Directed amps back? interesting ... wait'll you see the new stuff :-) JD Daniel Ruiz wrote: sancho" <tR-003.at.ev1.dot.net> wrote in message news:vt574lluoqsk7f@corp.supernews.com... John, I know their not a clone, I just wanted to hear your 2 cents. But they do look like the older Apline V12's. ppi amps look like mufflers... does that make them mufflers? -- sancho the f.ck did i put that tylenol? Actually, I always thought PPI amps resembled the photon torpedos from Star Trek... sure, if you send me tree-fitty... JD > oh boy.. can't wait, whooo hoooo.... > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >> >> >> > John, I know their not a clone, I just wanted to hear your 2 cents. But >> they [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Actually, I always thought PPI amps resembled the photon torpedos from > Star Trek... Rumor has it, that those in Engineering at ADST just before the DEI purchase called the new ORION amplifier design "Spock's Coffin" John Andreen maybe a tad like some Crossfire models also... there are only so many ways you can trim out a conventional heat sink design like that. JD >John, I know their not a clone, I just wanted to hear your 2 cents. But they >do look like the older Apline V12's. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >>>> >>>> You're right. I dont see nothing wrong with a little bit of the retro look.You thought that I would point that out. Just like back in the day When PPI repainted Orion GX amplifiers and sold them as the PPI art searies, such as the PPi-2150M >Maybe like old Alpines. They look nothing like the current Alpines. Not >that there's anything wrong with that. A bunch of amps looked just like [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >it, >> but they look like Alpine V12 knock-offs. Are you on crack? PPI and Orion were two separate companies until ADST bought them both. Even then the designs were still separate. Paul Vina > You're right. I dont see nothing wrong with a little bit of the retro look.You > thought that I would point that out. Just like back in the day When PPI [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >it, > >> but they look like Alpine V12 knock-offs. I'm I on crack?, no. Very good and thank for the history lession. Take a good look, and I mean I good look at the PPi-2150M and Orion GX line of amplifiers. The heatsinks are the same, the end plates and even the screws are the same, further more the The RCA connectors are the same. Hey is that a DIN plug on the side of the PPi-2150M for a bridging module, you know like the one on the Orion Gx line? >Are you on crack? PPI and Orion were two separate companies until ADST >bought them both. Even then the designs were still separate. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> >it, >> >> but they look like Alpine V12 knock-offs. SO? Lots of companies get parts from the same vendors. And how do you know it was PPI that stole anyone's design (assuming there was any copying in the first place)? Paul Vina > I'm I on crack?, no. Very good and thank for the history lession. Take a good > look, and I mean I good look at the PPi-2150M and Orion GX line of [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >> >it, > >> >> but they look like Alpine V12 knock-offs. Back in those days, Orion ampifier heatsinks were hand crafted, in their Tempe AZ factory. The Orion GX line was out way before the PPI Art Series line. The PPI Art Series line came out around the same time as the Orion SX line of amplifiers. I'm not saying that PPI stole anything. What I am saying is that they bough the GX line from Orion and repained them and sold them as their early Art Series line. A short time after the Art Series came out PPI changed the case to a finless rounded end heatsink like the one found on the A100 and A200 amplifier. The next time that you come across a PPI 2075AM, 4200AM or 2150M, take a close look and you'll see what I mean. Here is another inferesting fact that many people are unaware of, PPI used to sell gear under the Phaze Audio name. >SO? Lots of companies get parts from the same vendors. And how do you know >it was PPI that stole anyone's design (assuming there was any copying in the >first place)? > >Paul Vina And Linear Power had amps that looked like that too. Big deal. I also doubt Orio was making their own heatsinks. Almost everyone, even today, buys them from a 3rd party. Paul Vina > Back in those days, Orion ampifier heatsinks were hand crafted, in their Tempe > AZ factory. The Orion GX line was out way before the PPI Art Series line. The [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > > >Paul Vina Linar Power, (also known as Eye Candy amps) amps looked nothing like it Orion, they had full rap around fins on their heats sinks with stainless steel end plates. They also had/ have their heatsinks drilled out on the inside to fit the metal bi-polor trasistors that they use. Doubt it or not, The fact is that Orion had their own tool shop and their hand crafted heatsinks made right in their Tempe AZ plant. Just in case you didn't know the heatsinks came in four colors. Black, SX, Red HCCA and custom chrome or gold plated with the option of having your name engraved. :) n article <EWGzb.424418$Fm2.427533@attbi_s04>, "Paul Vina" <paulvina@comcast.net> wrote: >And Linear Power had amps that looked like that too. Big deal. I also >doubt Orio was making their own heatsinks. Almost everyone, even today, >buys them from a 3rd party. > >Paul Vina Yes I know, I sold them for 4 years. Paul Vina > Linar Power, (also known as Eye Candy amps) amps looked nothing like it Orion, > they had full rap around fins on their heats sinks with stainless steel end [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > > >Paul Vina You're talking about the secondary machining required for assembly... the heat sinks were from an outside supplier, they brought them in bulk and cut them there. many amp mfr's did this in house, some still do. I remember touring the Zapco facility in Modesto back in the 80's after they had just acquired a big machine for milling and tapping holes, etc. - they had been doing it by hand with a drill press before that! Still has nothing to do with PPI ... if it would help, I could call a buddy that worked in the metal shop and drove a forklift around the place before he moved into the front office, and ask him what flavor of crack you might be on... or, maybe a couple of the speaker designers that worked there as well. JD >Linar Power, (also known as Eye Candy amps) amps looked nothing like it Orion, >they had full rap around fins on their heats sinks with stainless steel end [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> >> Maybe he's had a little too much "Ear Candy"! Paul Vina > You're talking about the secondary machining required for assembly... > the heat sinks were from an outside supplier, they brought them in bulk [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >> > >>Paul Vina In late 1997 or early 1998 - Ted Guenther and his sister, who owned PPI sold the company to Phase Audio. PPI came under the direction of Phase Audio and was shortly broke. From there it was sold to Orion/Ads and then on to Directed Electronics. In its original state - PPI had good products and an excellent reputation. Directed is huge and has the ability to revive PPI given time. Alma Gates www.teamgates.org Wow, Alma I haven't seen you post in forever! How are you doing? Paul Vina > In late 1997 or early 1998 - Ted Guenther and his sister, who owned PPI sold > the company to Phase Audio. PPI came under the direction of Phase Audio and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Alma Gates > www.teamgates.org Hello Paul, I read R.A.C.all the time - just seldom post unless something catches my eye as in PPI. PPI will always have a very special place in my life and I just want things straight..It was a great company that was destroyed by outsiders. Things happen that you cannot control and this was one of them. I have been with DEI (Python) for a few years now and was pleased that they were able to purchase PPI. Only time will tell what happens. I know what you mean. When Phaze bought PPI I wan't a real happy camper personally but it did make my job easier since I wasn't selling PPI so it was easier to get people to look at my product. I was really happy when DEI bought ADST and decided to give the line some attention. Paul Vina > Hello Paul, > I read R.A.C.all the time - just seldom post unless something catches my eye as [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Only time will tell what happens. iirc 'phaze' audio made and/or marketed tube amps (somehow affiliated with butler) and metal coned speakers before and after the ppi acquisition... i found a page to confirm while i was composing this: http://www.butleraudio.com/bk.html i believe they are what captain howdy referred to when he said, "Here is another inferesting fact that many people are unaware of, PPI used to sell gear under the Phaze Audio name." -- sancho inferesting indeed > In late 1997 or early 1998 - Ted Guenther and his sister, who owned PPI sold > the company to Phase Audio. PPI came under the direction of Phase Audio and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Alma Gates > www.teamgates.org Phaze bought PPI ... then, they damn near killed it by creating bogus receivables so the bank would keep lending them money to buy more product, which they then tried to sell off to pay the bank, but never getting ahead in the process. Whole thing was the end result of a very ambitious plan to grow the business aggressively which was why they also brought in the off-shore PPI amp line, and the C1/C2 subs and matching speaker lines. It all came crashing down around 1999? Something like that... we looked at the time but didn't make an offer, and ADST ended up absorbing them. JD >iirc > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > You go girl!!! I wish you would have been invited/asked to purchase PPI from PHAZE LLC and not ADST. Perhaps things might have turned out different. Sigh John Andreen > In late 1997 or early 1998 - Ted Guenther and his sister, who owned PPI > sold [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Alma Gates > www.teamgates.org No they weren't ... they have been buying heat sinks from outside suppliers for many years. Many of them that would love to collect what they were owed on the several occasions one company or the other in Phoenix stiffed them. Do you even remember wht Art series looked like? It has no fins, a triangular shape at one edge and a circular roll at the opposite edge. The top cover was white painted steel with pretty pictures painted on it. I defy you to find me an Orion that has EVER looked like that. The original GX amps had the same heat sink as the original HCCA, predated them actually ... I know, I became an authorized dealer for the brand in 1987. The GX were black with silver machined accent strips, and the HCCA were a dark red with the same machined strips. They both used phantom power DIN inputs, although RCA's were provided for use when you weren't driving them with an Orion processor. There is a later GX mechanical design, before it became the SX series and later Extreme stuff. At the timethe GX came out, PPI was making such models as the 4030, 2075, that kind of stuff. They migrated to the longer, skinny models not long afterwards - like the big surfboard stuff - 2200, 2350, those kind of critters. When the Art series came out, it changed the mechanical look 100% and was very different than anything anyone else in the US was making or would make, before being replaced itself by the first-gen PowerClass models in 1987. You are simly wrong in what you're saying - and I will be glad to have one of the two surviving vice presidents of Orion and Precision Power, or their amplifier parts procurement manager, all of whom I work with daily, confirm that you're wrong. Or, you could just let it go. JD >Back in those days, Orion ampifier heatsinks were hand crafted, in their Tempe >AZ factory. The Orion GX line was out way before the PPI Art Series line. The [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> >> Hey John, If you are saying that either James T, Bill T, Sean D, or Roger P have any real idea on these issue's, then let's all hear from them. I know you won't as I am indeed "calling your bluff" James T hasn't got a clue about anything except how to make something cheaper ( and with less quality ). Bill T might have some idea about Orion, but when pressed, he didn't even know what the filter cut-off slope was for an Orion product. There is nothing Sean D can add because it is 100% clueless. Roger P is perhaps the one shining star, at least for the PPI products as he began his career with PPI sanding raw heatsinks in preparation for subsequent paint and silkscreen. Ask him. John Andreen > No they weren't ... they have been buying heat sinks from outside > suppliers for many years. Many of them that would love to collect what [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] >>> >>> I never said ay of those guys were engineers, but they damn sure know they don't have to hide from dealers that want to return entire shipments of defective amplifiers any more ... I think perhaps you are extrapolating a little further than my remarks actually warranted. You clearly know the inside story from the pre-ADST days far better than I do, but if you go back and read what I wrote it was clearly referencing the conditions at ADST when we acquired them. As to the heat sink commonality, you tell me: did one of the companies produce for the other or not? Did one of the two steal an extrusion design from the other? The two examples Captain Howdy was harping about were clearly not what he claimed. Feel free to provide more specifics if you ware arguing in his favor on that point. JD >Hey John, > [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > > > I never said ay of those guys were engineers, but they damn sure know > they don't have to hide from dealers that want to return entire [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > JD Mr Durbin, I have gone back as far as I can remember and things kind of go like this. A company called OHM TECH used to do contract board manufacturing for Rockford Fosgate. After a period of time, these individuals at OHM TECH saw an opportunity to make money by building their own product. This handful of people started ORION. Time went by and several of the original people had a falling out. They left and started Precision Power Inc. The biggest differences were over topologies. Orion preferred fixed duty cycle quasi-regulated power supplies. PPI preferred fully regulated PWM regulation schemes, hence the name Precision Power. At this juncture, I am pretty sure that only a handful of companies were using PWM. There was a gigantic rift between ORION and PPI that only ended when PPI and ORION were both under ADST roof. A little known factoid is that all ORION amplifiers made up until the "Spock's Coffin" line had vestigial elements left over in the Power supply section that are of little or no use in a MOSFET power supply. In fact, these elements often have a substantial deleterious effect on the amplifier. In short they can blow up just "because". PPI was not without its share of internal strife either. An inside power play between the 2 top shareholders resulted in a split that created EXTANT amplifiers. EXTANT even used PPI's first building as their base of operations. This was largely due in fact to Mr Scoon still owning the building. PPI produced amplifiers for Crutchfield, Jensen, Sansui, MTX and your speaker guy's (Doctor Dave) ex-employer. Not once did they produce products for ORION. Nor did they ever conspire with them and use their heatsinks. PPI extrusions have always been "their own" and the extrusion dies were always purchased outright. Does this help? John Andreen This would explain why early PPI amplifiers looked like Orion GX knock offs, as I have stated. Since these were the same people that created Orion to begin with, when they left Orion and started PPI, I highly doubt that they trashed every bit of knowledge they had and agreed on and started totally fresh at PPI. They were more then likely buying parts from the same suppliers along with their extrusion dies and applying knowledge that they already had from Orion. Bottom line is when you have Orion's people building amplifiers, you get Orion amplifiers with changes that both sides could not agree on as a single team, such as the fully regulated power supplies as stated by John Andreen. Just how wrong was I by saying that early PPI amplifiers looked like Orion GX knock offs? As it turns out early PPI amplifiers were more of an Orion knock off then I thought, which is totally fine now that I am aware of the fact that they were made by the same people. >I have gone back as far as I can remember and things kind of go like this. >A company called OHM TECH used to do contract board manufacturing for [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >supply. In fact, these elements often have a substantial deleterious >effect on the amplifier. In short they can blow up just "because". You are making assumptions that are in fact not in evidence. I know, I was there at just about the beginning. Or, I have long friendships with those who were there at the beginning of PPI. Those very same people that you say became PPI from ORION also were from OHM TECH that did Rockford-Fosgate shop work. By your way of thinking, PPI should also look like RF amplifiers. Or failing that you must also believe that ORION "knocked-off" RF amplifiers of that era. And they did. Square with Fins. You should check your dimensions more carefully and read what I said. The Internals of a PPI amplifier were nothing like that of an ORION...NOTHING AT ALL! They did start completely fresh. In fact, the Mechanical Engineer at Orion stayed at ORION and PPI hired a new person as their ME. I believe that only one Audio Engineer that was Originally at OHM TECH left ORION to work at PPI. I know him very, very well and he would tell you that the amplifiers were quite dissimilar. Different Power Supply, different output section, etc. Yeah, the outsides "looked" similar, square with fins. You somehow seem to believe that all that were at ORION were cleft in two and became 2 exact copies. One to stay behind at ORION and one to leave to form PPI. That is not the case. It took some time for PPI to make new contacts, and to find sources of raw materials, recruit employees, etc. On another note, had PPI stolen from ORION any intellectual property, then they would have been sued into oblivion by ORION. Remember, ORION had about a 2 year head start. They had capital and profits. Why did they not get sued by ORION? It was because they were completely different. GET IT! PPI was in business for 17 years before going into decline. That says something. John Andreen > This would explain why early PPI amplifiers looked like Orion GX knock > offs, as I have stated. Since these were the same people that created [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Orion knock off then I thought, which is totally fine now that I am aware > of the fact that they were made by the same people. It's always been amazing to me how much variety, creativity, and ingenuity is scattered through the history of car audio by the people that started in that one "little" part of the country. Quite a cauldron of invention... JD >You are making assumptions that are in fact not in evidence. I know, I was >there at just about the beginning. Or, I have long friendships with those [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Thanks! I have met a few of the characters that were part of that hsitory, and had heard some pieces of those details over the years, but not in a cohesive way. Only thing I saw there that I am still curious about is the full PWM going that far back with PPI - seems to me they made loosely regulated amps early on, and on other occasions throughout the history of the brand. For example, when I was an Orion dealer back in 87/88, we also dabbled in PPI amps and processors, around the period when they had models like the 2075, and I seem to recall an asymmetric 4 channel model called the 4030 or something like that. I don't recall those pieces having the extra transformer you'd expect from a fully regulated design. In the PCX family, only the larger models are fully regulated - the smaller ones are loosely regulated, i.e. "adaptive PWM power supply" as Marketing calls it :-) JD > > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > Their very, very first units were self-oscillators, in reality there was no PWM chips yet made or were cost prohibitive. Can't remember when the decision was made to go regulated with a controller. You are right though, the really small amps (below 100 Watts) were "loosely regulated" (hate the phrasology). Mostly due to PCB real estate for the secondary storage device (large Inductor). PPI even produced a unit called internally as the "Peanut". Might have been 10-12 Watts/ channel whose heatsink was only about 3-4" long. But very early on, there was a push internally for for PWM P/S as there was the issue of excessive heat caused by high idle currents on the larger amplifiers when using fixed duty cycle Pulse width power supplies. There was also the issue of the protection afforded a regulated design. In general, I try not to use the term "loosely regulated" when describing a power supply as there can be loosely regulated PWM supplies and there can be tightly regulated fixed duty cycle power supplies. A better way is to always describe the topology. PWM Fixed frequency forward converter, Flyback converter, etc. PPI PWM power supplies are mostly of the Fixed frequency forward converter type. The PPI2350 is the exception as it is a PWM full H-bridge converter. This spreads the "electrical stress" on the MOSFET devices but also can fail spectacularly when cross conduction occurs. JA > Thanks! I have met a few of the characters that were part of that > hsitory, and had heard some pieces of those details over the years, but [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] >> >> Captain Howdy YOU ARE ON CRACK You are completely remiss in your assertions. I have worked with and for PPI for most of its real existance in car audio. I can unequivocably tell you that PPI never bought ORION Heatsinks and repainted them. Back then, almost all amplifiers had the same look. Square, with fins. They may be similar, but they were not the same. Regarding the Phaze Audio claim, you are once again incorrect. The original owners of PPI ( a brother and sister ) sold to a gentleman from Indiana who was also the owner of Phaze Audio LLC. The selling price was over double the then current value of PPI. Phaze Audio LLC made a few thousand amplifiers on their own prior to buying PPI in 1998. They dropped their current product lines and continued with the PPI products as they were better designed, manufacturing friendly and had decent profit margins. You got it backwards, Phaze Audio LLC did business under the PPI brand names. Their own products fell by the wayside. Poor management and unproven embezzlement led to the demise of Phaze Audio LLC DBA PPI. ADST purchased the remaining assets and brand name of PPI. Phaze Audio went the way of the Dodo. The PPI product lines under ADST management made up almost 75% of ADST sales. But, once again upper management would not listen to reason and spent far too much time, effort and monies on trying to make their money losing brands profitable again. Even the PPI brands suffered when really poor Engineering decisions were made by NON-Engineers and managers who had inflated ego's and no common sense. The owner of ADST trusted these people and believed their lies and half truths. Most of these trusted few resigned or were fired when it was discovered that they had created a house of cards. By that time it was too late and ADST Inc was sold to DEI. DEI still makes the PPI line of Amplifiers and some Signal processors, but IMHO they cannot hold a candle to the originals. They are now made overseas by a company that makes many brands of amplifiers for many other companies. If you want an inkling as to the popularity of the new PPI lines, visit Ebay and check out just how many people are bidding on the PCX series amplifiers offered there. Then, check out the bidding on the older models such as the Art Series and the M an AM series. QED BTW there was only one "ART" series. Those are the PPI amplifiers whose names begin with "A". The "M" series was PPI first line of amplifiers using MOSFETS in their power supply. The "AM" series was an improved version of the "M" series. The White w/Graphics and Black w/graphics were simply mid-design cycle changes to promote sales, much like the PPI Powerclass line and the subsequent chrome version of the same. p.s If you look closely on an ART series amplifier, you will find the initials CHY. The artist name is/was Carolyn Hall Young. John Andreen > Back in those days, Orion ampifier heatsinks were hand crafted, in their > Tempe AZ factory. The Orion GX line was out way before the PPI Art Series [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> >>Paul Vina > Captain Howdy YOU ARE ON CRACK All Hail Prince of the Obvious -- Lizard You're one to talk. >> Captain Howdy YOU ARE ON CRACK > >All Hail Prince of the Obvious JA, Thanks for the history update. However, I would love to hear your explanation of how PPI product has somehow deteriorated since we made the ADST acquisition. Here are some facts: * The PCB assembly was already being imported * The final assembly was conducted under no recognized global or US quality system standard * The company was chronically short on cash and forced to make decisions that constantly affected product quality * Return rates on product were becoming a growing problem * Precision Power had themselves already gone offshore to bring in a lower end amp line, as well as ALL of their speakers, and subs * Since the acquisition, Directed has done the following: o Eliminated a slew of problems in the original PCX design, including failure to make power, higher than speced THD+N, etc. etc. None of the original topology was altered in the process, and that topology dates back to Art series or before. PowerClass amps were not much more than Art series circuits with an added crossover and new mechanical design. o Replaced the problematic transistor clamping method that PPI had used for years with one that actually prevents transistors from overheating regularly o Spent the better part of 2002 buying back ADST-built defectives from dealers so they'd continue to support the brand - and a bunch of consumers too o Moved production to ISO9000 certified facilities o Brought R&D and development under our own ISO9000 and QS9000 quality system guidelines o Ditched the crappy C1/C2 subs and replaced them with considerably higher performance, higher quality PowerClass line o Added the US designed and engineered DCX subs and neo component/coax series - getting PPI back into the premium sub/speaker business for the first time since the Phaze speakers and flat piston Pro subs went away. If you stop by our booth at CES in January, you can get a look at the next phase of the revival of this fine brand - a completely new amp family. You'll also see a couple of new processors, a new line of PowerClass speakers, and while you're there, say hello to Roger Paeselt, former VP Sales for PPI - he's stayed with us through the transition and will be the first to tell you that things have gotten a LOT better. I'm old myself - been kicking around 12V since 1977 - and I love old school as much as the next guy. But anyone that tells you the old stuff was better in this case hasn't got a freaking clue. Also, you really need to get over the country of origin hang-up - the names of companies much bigger and better known in audio than us are everywhere in Asia these days... consumer electronics is a global business, and consumers always want more for less. And, something that people rarely understand but anyone that has ever been a product manager in this business learned in the last few years: the factories in Asia will jump through hoops to produce your latest design, and make it work right. The factories in the US take 2-3 times as long, aren't interested in tooling new parts to meet your spec, and frankly don't compete on price, delivery, or any of the critical areas for being an OEM. John Durbin Audio Product Category Manager Directed Electronics Inc. aka JD >Captain Howdy YOU ARE ON CRACK > [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > > John you are mostly correct about your assertion below. You are however misinformed about the clamping method that PPI had been using since just about day one of their existence. That method only failed on the PCX line of amplifiers that were produced at ADST Inc. Up until that time, the material callout for the steel bottom/hang-off clamp was specified as an ASTM grade that was meant to have a "springy" characteristic ( read carbon content) and holes were used to hold the clamping screws in place. When the ME at ADST ( his name was Chris C ) and the then VP of Engineering Enrique S, came up with an idea of using an extruded groove to capture the clamping screws instead, all clamping ability was lost. Now, ignoring studies and objections to the contrary, this method was put into production. Any MORON can grasp the fact that a round hole ( of proper diameter )can handle much more shear stress than a groove of similar proportions. Roughly 6 times more to be exact. That is where the failure of the original clamping method occurred. The original PPI clamping was extremely successful and would still work today if properly implimented. The Topology lineage you speak of only begins at the ART series. Much was changed between the AM series and the ART series. If you were to review the schematics, you would know that. You could also contact Bruce McMillan(sp?) at JL AUDIO for a short discourse on the differences, though he may not wish to talk with the enemy. Failure rates in the field were never over 1-2% at the original PPI. Gee, I guess they did follow some form of quality control standards. Failure rates when James T took the production of the PPI PCB's offshore were right around 4%. A 100% increase in field failure. Failure rates on the PCX line produced at ADST were as high as 47%, almost 1 in 2. Bad by any stretch of the imagination. It is easy to be able to brag about being able to better your quality control when you reference the ADST/PPI PCX series. Can you state and prove that your failure rates now are at or below 1-2%? Don't believe me, ask Roger. John Andreen > JA, > [quoted text clipped - 151 lines] >> >> Your explanation of the material changes that caused the transistor failures jibes with what I've been told, but my point that the current method works better still stands. It is far less subject to material spec differences and more tolerant of assembly torque variances. As to the failure rate issue, I would say that figures don't lie but liars can figure - not casting any aspersions your way but frankly there's been so much BS clouding this brand starting from the Phaze ownership days that I would question ANY data that was put in front of me from that period. Certainly nobody in the operation was looking at accurate numbers at the business end... and there's plenty of ways to cook defect rates too. However, I have no argument with your contention that the product quality dropped off from what it had been. We spent a fair amount of time debugging stuff in 2002 just for that reason. My comments about the lack of quality process reflected what we found at ADST in late 2001, also from some things we saw when we looked at an acquisition in 99? whenever it was the Phaze bubble burst. Naming James as somehow responsible for moving production offshore is pretty weak - I am sure executive management and a need to improve efficiency and cost-down product was the real driver of that. The fact that he's still getting that job done and doing it damn well while constantly improving the reliability and performance of the product speaks to which of the group had better comon sense - there's very little glory to be had as the owner of a defunct process that disappeared because it cost too much for the company to stay in business. JD >John you are mostly correct about your assertion below. You are however >misinformed about the clamping method that PPI had been using since just [quoted text clipped - 198 lines] > > I guess I didn't answer the root question. How has the product changed for the better or the worse. For one thing, you would never find any TL07x operational amplifiers in any ART series or Powerclass amplifier designs or their signal processors. They have a very high noise floor and their use often times makes an amplifiers output sound like "music being pushed through sand". The original designs preferred National SC LM series of OPAMPs. Better yet, Burr-Brown were sometimes seen in certain designs. Capacitors in or around the signal paths were always Poly Film, Mylar or Silver Mica. No crappy ceramics or high drift mono's were used. I am speaking of the PPI lineage prior to being produced offshore. PPI designs also had a penchent for using high grade output devices such as those from ROHM and SANKEN. These were indeed audio grade output devices. If DEI's PPI amplifiers are at least using ON SEMI's MJx21193/21194 than I will concede this point. They really are great devices. Too much is also placed on THD+N performance of an audio amplifier, including DEI. IMHO, offshore turnkey builders often try to better this specification instead of focusing on IMD. Poor IMD numbers can have a large, deleterious effect on an amplifiers sound quality. When I measured a few of the PCX amplifiers in 2001, several of these amplifiers had an IMD about 4 times that of the PC line. Pretty much like that of an ORION G4 series amplifier. I do not know if this has been corrected in the "new" PPI PCX amplifiers, but I do know that this was not a criterion on your "DESIGN DOCUMENT" list. To all in this group, it (THD+N) should never be a "figure of merit" when choosing an amplifier. In fact, some of the best sounding amplifiers in the world have relatively high THD+N. Negative feedback and THD+N are antagonists. Lowering one increases the other. And it is always better to minimize negative feedback. Makes an amplifier sound "alive" or more "natural". JD, talk to your sages on this one. This one wasn't DEI's call originally, but too much internal signal processing can often lead to loss of channel seperation and degredation of S/N. Amplifiers should amplify. Signal processors should signal process. Being all things to all men is not a good thing. I recall an old addage, "Jack of all trades, Master of none". If you want to win the hearts and minds of all those who believe in "the old school PPI", then I suggest you return to basics. Do you guys even know just how important the PPI "hybrid" board was to creating the "PPI sound". Is it still there? What about the "nuance" cap?. Are there still two muting stages prior to the output stage input? I will leave you with a final perspective. It all truly boils down to the synergy that the Design teams had at the original PPI. No single person was any more or any less than another. All ideas and opinions counted. The original PPI was neither a Marketing driven company, nor was it an Engineering driven company. It was simply an Idea driven company. People wanted to work for this company and it ideals. They would even take big pay cuts just to be part of the magic. It was this "joy de vivre", this spark, this essence, this "je ne sais quoi", that made that company and its products great. PPI is now just another name in a long list of names under the umbrella of DEI. It is now in effect lost like tears in rain. PPI was once great, perhaps it can be again. John Andreen BTW, I hear that John W is no longer with DEI. Good move. I do hope that you learned from a true ZEN master ( George R ) whilst he was in your midst. > JA, > [quoted text clipped - 151 lines] >> >> Isn't that the truth. und "alive" or more "natural". JD, talk to your sages on this one. >This one wasn't DEI's call originally, but too much internal signal >processing can often lead to loss of channel seperation and degredation of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >minds of all those who believe in "the old school PPI", then I suggest you >return to basics. > PPI is now just another name in a long list of names under >the umbrella of DEI. It is now in effect lost like tears in rain. > >PPI was once great, perhaps it can be again. Again, you show your ignorance... please refer to my response to John, who will certainly "get it" as he clearly has a well above average idea what he's talking about. JD >Isn't that the truth. > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> >> Holy cow, it's freaking thesis paper! Good stuff though... I'm dropping a few responses/comments in below: >I guess I didn't answer the root question. How has the product changed for >the better or the worse. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >SEMI's MJx21193/21194 than I will concede this point. They really are >great devices. I'd have to look, frankly - I do know we still use Burr-Brown ops in some of the a/d/s/ Powerplate models, but the transistor selection is beyond my area of expertise. Though I have been responsible to that level of detail in the past, I am purely marketing-side these days. >Too much is also placed on THD+N performance of an audio amplifier, >including DEI. IMHO, offshore turnkey builders often try to better this >specification instead of focusing on IMD. Why do you say that? I've been responsible for that kind of philosophical choice from the beginning at DEI, and have never been an advocate of exceptionally low THD+N. Other than some processors, nothing we've ever built was designed to do much better than maybe 0.05% to 0.8%. The things I learned about amp philosophy from Robert Zeff and others while working my way through retail are much closer in line with what you're advocating. While I do not believe that some of the things people fixate on are particularly audible (as long as they reach at least a minimal "threshold"level anyway), i.e. damping factor, slew rate, THD+N, etc., I'm not opposed to improving them either. > Poor IMD numbers can have a >large, deleterious effect on an amplifiers sound quality. When I measured [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >it is always better to minimize negative feedback. Makes an amplifier >sound "alive" or more "natural". JD, talk to your sages on this one. You're preaching to the choir, I cut my teeth as an installer working with Zapco amps that fit that description to a T. I remember a very funny day in the install bay around 1981-82 when a salesman from Kimber was trying to convince us that using their braided signal cables would solve all our noise problems and in addition, allow the amps we were installing to produce more power. He set up a whole demo with a scope and an amp he had brought where he was able to conclusively show that noise induced in the signal cables was looping through the amp's output stage via negative feedback, resulting in heat, reduced power etc. Then my boss had him substitute a Zapco 150A in place of his test amp. There was no difference before and after, as the Zapco had so little feedback that the looping phenomenon was undectable. The salesman left shortly after that without an opening order... >This one wasn't DEI's call originally, but too much internal signal >processing can often lead to loss of channel seperation and degredation of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >minds of all those who believe in "the old school PPI", then I suggest you >return to basics. Ok, we'll be the guys living in that 2% of the business that doesn't include front end processing in their amps. What the hell, the brand was almost dead when we picked it up anyway. I happen to like really high-grade processors myself - although I've found that very good digital solutions can be a good substitute - but it doesn't mean we can survive selling at a competitive disadvantage to the entire world. The same thing about too much internal processing is also true of outboard processors, plus you don't always control the signal routing - that's in the hands of an installer. There's plenty of noisy processors out there, and plenty more that cause noise in systems due to lousy attention to signal path and grounding details, not to mention some that clip prematurely at internal chokepoints due to stupid gain choices or lousy component selection. >Do you guys even know just how important the PPI "hybrid" board was to >creating the "PPI sound". Is it still there? What about the "nuance" cap?. >Are there still two muting stages prior to the output stage input? Yes on the hybrid board - not every model, but I know the PCX 2400 uses them and I believe some of the other 2 and 4 channel larger stuff does as well. Not sure about the mono blocks or the 5 channel. The prototype 1000 watt 4 channel for next year I was looking at in Engineering today has four of them. And, those hybrid boards got debugged - again, by our engineers after the acquisition - so it works as well now as the original domestic version did. Don't know about the other elements. >I will leave you with a final perspective. It all truly boils down to the >synergy that the Design teams had at the original PPI. No single person [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >PPI was once great, perhaps it can be again. Send them our way - we love people that work for joy instead of money :-) Seriously, I do understand the passion of those people and the company back then. Though they were different philosophically, a/d/s/ and Orion had that same passion for product and the whole car audio lifestyle. many of us - and I say us because I've always had the same passion about what I do in this business, as do those Phoenix people that have stayed on with us after the acquisition. It's definitely harder to have the same flavor within the corporate frame, but as a very positive offset we can focus purely on the product, and the marketing, and the ideas without having to worry whether we're employed next week, next month, next year. In the long run, that plus the passion should be a great combination and allow us to do some fun, cool stuff. I worry more about where the car audio market is headed and how we get it moving back towards SQ and more advanced levels as a hobby than I do about whether we'll make it or whether the brands will prosper. >John Andreen > >BTW, I hear that John W is no longer with DEI. Good move. I do hope that >you learned from a true ZEN master ( George R ) whilst he was in your >midst. > John and George were both a pleasure to work with as was Sam, was very disappointed we couldn't convince them to relocate and design nice amps with us in San Diego. As to whether it was a good move, I won't comment - people need to be where they're happy. But, he was important to us and has been missed - I hope that turns out to be equally true where he is now. His replacement is a pretty cool guy too - gentleman named Carlos. You may know him... JD > > [quoted text clipped - 163 lines] > > John, Could that be a one Carlos C who might have worked at Rockford Fosgate. If so, He is quite the Audio Engineer. John Andreen that's the guy... JD >John, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >John Andreen > He was always quiet at RF so we didn't converse much. But I do remember that he did good work. JA > that's the guy... > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >>John Andreen >> So what you really mean is that PPI never bought Orion heats sinks, they just coped their design, since Orion was a big seller in those days. The "M" series art work sure looks like the same art works they used on the art series. But then again PPI amps still all look the same from the PC series to now. The PC series four channel amps were ruined thanks to their uneven crossover between front and rear channels that was mounted in the amp via header pins . The PCX series totally sucked a.s, even if your were lucky enough to get one that worked new out of the box. I do agree that the art series was the last decent line of amps that PPI produced to date. No one sells DEI gear around here, other then their overpriced alarms, nor have I used any of their gear other then their overpriced alarms. Maybe if PPI made half of the advances that MTX made to their amps over the years, they still be as popular as they once were. That's my two cents. > No one sells DEI gear around here, > other then their overpriced alarms, nor have I used any of their gear other > then their overpriced alarms. Too bad. You don't know what your missing. I have been using Directed Audio in my own vehicles since there was a Directed Audio (OK, it was DEI Audio back then). I've never heared anyone say a bad thing about them. >Maybe if PPI made half of the advances that MTX > made to their amps over the years, they still be as popular as they once were. Advances like what? SignatureJohn Spagnolo - teamROCS #016 Multi Media Xpress Car Audio www.mmxpress.com "It's about the music stupid!" John "Batvette" Lucier 98' R.A.C. FAQ: http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/ JL Audio Tech Section: http://www.jlaudio.com/tutorials MMXpress Tech Section: http://www.mmxpress.com/technical/ > So what you really mean is that PPI never bought Orion heats sinks, they just > coped their design, since Orion was a big seller in those days. The "M" series [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > made to their amps over the years, they still be as popular as they once were. > That's my two cents. Surface mount technology. Isolated mainboard, isolating the power supply, amp channels, crossover, gains and inputs to it's own cells reducing the size of the mainboard resulting in a smaller amplifier foot print over poke through technology. Also producing a much cleaner look eliminating jumper wires and power rails. Have you looked inside a PPI amplifier lately? Lets not forget about my favorite MTX amplifier advance in their class D line, The compression circuit, protecting the subwoofer during amplifier clipping at high volume levels compressing peak spikes. The only thing that I would add is a adjustable compression ratio. >Advances like what? Yes, I look inside them all the time - both theirs and ours. Among other things, I like looking at symmetrical PCB layout and bipolar transistors, rather than asymmetrical n-channel FET outputs. I also like looking at the transient response characteristics of the two when driven hard. No prize for guessing which one is devoid of nasty spikes and other artifacts at that point. You're welcome to your choice, it's a strong reliable amp and there are many things I do like about it, but it's not much in the audiophile realm. As for jumper wires and power rails, when did MTX ever manage to make a 1600 watt class AB amp? As I recall, the closest they got was the 2300X, notorious for shorting over-stressed output FET's and passing DC straight to the voice coil. Nice little side effect from passing 90A of B+ directly to the transformer secondary common rather than ground as most AB amps do. That amp was only about 600 watts, I hate to think what a 1000+ watt amp from them would have looked like internally, but I bet it would have come with power rails and been below-spec for output device current capacity. And, last time I looked there was not a jumper wire in sight in the PCX amps so I'm not sure what that's all about. As to the compression, that's a great device if you're more concerned with the return rate on your subwoofers as opposed to enjoying music at its dynamic best. In addition, small footprints are easier with lower powered amps. All that surface mount stuff you're so giddy about is pretty meaningless as the amp gets bigger, since the working parts - power supply components and output devices - drive the footprint far harder than front end components. Then again, if you can name an MTX amp that has half the front end functionality of a PCX, I'll eat my hat. However, since you brought it up perhaps you'd like to take a little closer look at the hybrid SMT driver boards in the PCX 2400 - we use that stuff when it makes sense. We use the crap out of it in our "over-priced" alarms, since size matters a lot more in that business. Hell, I even speced surface mount components in the second generation DEI Audio amps - it's no magic technology, what's more important is the circuit design and execution, not the choice of SMT vs. through-hole. But, frankly your whole rant sounds mostly like it is coming from someone having read a bunch of marketing lit from the manufacturer, and taking it as gospel. JD >Surface mount technology. Isolated mainboard, isolating the >power supply, amp channels, crossover, gains and inputs to it's own cells [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> >> Oh. OK then. Thought ya meant something that made em sound better. :-) I always liked MTX as a great bang for the buck brand. I even had a system with MTX amps for a while. The old Thunder 2300 and a Thunder 2175. SignatureJohn Spagnolo - teamROCS #016 Multi Media Xpress Car Audio www.mmxpress.com "It's about the music stupid!" John "Batvette" Lucier 98' R.A.C. FAQ: http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/ JL Audio Tech Section: http://www.jlaudio.com/tutorials MMXpress Tech Section: http://www.mmxpress.com/technical/ > Surface mount technology. Isolated mainboard, isolating the > power supply, amp channels, crossover, gains and inputs to it's own cells [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > >Advances like what? I just like the fact that MTX is doing their own thing in regards to building amplifiers. Sort of like Blaupunkt and their new class T amplifiers. >Oh. OK then. > >Thought ya meant something that made em sound better. :-) > >I always liked MTX as a great bang for the buck brand. I even had a system >with MTX amps for a while. The old Thunder 2300 and a Thunder 2175. Cuz no one else has done class T. Can you say Alpine? I know you can, you think everyone rips them off for all their designs. I guess Blaupunkt ripped them off too! Dork. Paul Vina > I just like the fact that MTX is doing their own thing in regards to building > amplifiers. Sort of like Blaupunkt and their new class T amplifiers. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >I always liked MTX as a great bang for the buck brand. I even had a system > >with MTX amps for a while. The old Thunder 2300 and a Thunder 2175. Class T technology is owned by TriPath Technologies, Inc and is leased/licensed to companies such as Alpine and Blaupunkt. While most TriPath licensees use single TriPath devices for each channel, Blaupunkt uses two per channel. You have spent way too many years with your head under a dashboard. The lack of blood flow to your brain isn't doing you any justice. Dork >Cuz no one else has done class T. Can you say Alpine? I know you can, you >think everyone rips them off for all their designs. I guess Blaupunkt [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >system >> >with MTX amps for a while. The old Thunder 2300 and a Thunder 2175. I already know all this. Dork. Paul Vina > Class T technology is owned by TriPath Technologies, Inc and > is leased/licensed to companies such as Alpine and Blaupunkt. While most [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >system > >> >with MTX amps for a while. The old Thunder 2300 and a Thunder 2175. Well then, try to spend a little less time under the dashboard and restore the blood flow to your brain. In the long run you'll be a much happier person with a lot less anger. >I already know all this. Dork. > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >> >system >> >> >with MTX amps for a while. The old Thunder 2300 and a Thunder 2175. I suppose if I showed you that same design, available for purchase by pretty much any company with a checkbook, in a catalog from the factory, with a generic heat sink design wrapped around it, you would still think it was "doing their own thing", eh? Also, the licensing is covered by buying the chips ... there's no separate "technology" agreement. If there is one, it's with the factory, not the brand owner - like Blaupunkt. Given a couple of other larger companies offer similar chip-based solutions, Tripath wouldn't have gotten very far with a licensing requirement. JD >Class T technology is owned by TriPath Technologies, Inc and >is leased/licensed to companies such as Alpine and Blaupunkt. While most [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >>>> >> Those would be the DEI Audio amps that had that "natural open" sound these guys are advocating, right? They may have been fugly little bastards but they sounded just fine... JD >>No one sells DEI gear around here, >>other then their overpriced alarms, nor have I used any of their gear [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > damn dude, step away from the crack pipe... JD >So what you really mean is that PPI never bought Orion heats sinks, they just >coped their design, since Orion was a big seller in those days. The "M" series [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > It seems at this point that I should be setting my calendar in Outloo for a reminder in December 2004 to reply to a post "2004 Directed amp look like Brand X" from Howdy Doody. Jua - OldOneEy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over one million posts online View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=16757 What is your point other then being a noob? >It seems at this point that I should be setting my calendar in Outlook >for a reminder in December 2004 to reply to a post "2004 Directed amps >look like Brand X" from Howdy Doody. > >Juan >What is your point other then being a noob? Psssst. Captain, its the other way around. And this is coming from a noob that uses AOL, poor child. >>What is your point other then being a noob? > >Psssst. Captain, its the other way around. And tell me I didn't just read this................ OMG it just keeps going. Paul Vina > And this is coming from a noob that uses AOL, poor child. > > >>What is your point other then being a noob? > > > >Psssst. Captain, its the other way around. >And this is coming from a noob that uses AOL, poor child. SO? Who cares. The aol newsgroup browser is easy to use and strings messages how I LIKE them. And I am no noob. How long have you been posting here? A few weeks? So go back to McDonalds your shift should be starting soon, and be sure you take your latest subscription to the car audio rag so you can learn even more than you already know. Oh and be sure you tell us how Rockford copied Kicker and how PPI copied Pyle or whatever irrelevent BS you like to spew. Les > And this is coming from a noob that uses AOL, poor child. > > >>What is your point other then being a noob? > > > >Psssst. Captain, its the other way around. trust me O1Eye is far from a noob, he's done CES reports since I've been on car audio sites like 97 Tell me he didn't just post that............ This guy's even dumber than I thought. Paul Vina > What is your point other then being a noob? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > >Juan Dumb, why because I pointed out something that none of you were able to see ? >Tell me he didn't just post that............ > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> > >> >Juan What, that Freaks a noob? You ARE on crack. He's been here as long as I can remember and I've been here on and off for at least 4 or 5 years. Paul Vina > Dumb, why because I pointed out something that none of you were able to see ? > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >> > > >> >Juan I'd be looking for a discussion on what the new Precision Power amps look like, myself ... JD >It seems at this point that I should be setting my calendar in Outlook >for a reminder in December 2004 to reply to a post "2004 Directed amps [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > John it doesn't matter what the new Precision Power amps look like, I was just trying to point out that the early Precision Power amps looked too much like the Orion GX line. Now we both know the real reason why. Done, end of story. >I'd be looking for a discussion on what the new Precision Power amps >look like, myself ... > >JD I agree with the "done" part, but my comments below were directed not to you but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ... JD >John it doesn't matter what the new Precision Power amps look like, I was just >trying to point out that the early Precision Power amps looked too much like [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> > but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ... Yeah, where the heck did THAT guy come from? People just be poppin out the woodwork. SignatureJohn Spagnolo - teamROCS #016 Multi Media Xpress Car Audio www.mmxpress.com "It's about the music stupid!" John "Batvette" Lucier 98' R.A.C. FAQ: http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/ JL Audio Tech Section: http://www.jlaudio.com/tutorials MMXpress Tech Section: http://www.mmxpress.com/technical/ > I agree with the "done" part, but my comments below were directed not to > you but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ... [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >> > >>JD Here's another guy popping out of the woodwork. I've been reparing Orion PPI and A/D/S/ amplifiers for over 10 years as a hobby. It is not a conicidence that these amplifiers are almost exactly designed the same from a circuitry standpoint. All 3 use the same output fets which are Motorola Semiconductor (2N6488 and 2N6491) (M) and either Fairchild or International Semiconductor on the power supplies. (F) (I~R). All cream of the crop as far as High Tolerance Mosfets, Fets, or Jfets. If I had to pick out the best amplifier that was ever made by the ADST family of companies, it would be the GX line from Orion by far. Ultra simplistic and fuctionallity that some of you may not realize. The top dog GX line, the 2350gx and 4100gx, are actually 2 amplifiers in 1 chassis. The 2350gx actually has the 400BDG module right inside. In this case its called the Input BD, which takes a single input channel (R+L) and splits into 2 channels, and inverting (180 degree phase) 1 side to each of the two amplifiers in the chassis. > > but to that "n00b", Old One Eye ... > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > >> > > >>JD ??? 2N6488 and 2N6491 are complementary bipolar transistors, not MOSFET's: http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/2N6487-D.PDF Orion used them in the early days for switching power supplies, even after many companies had started making the change to FET's. I suspect design elements relating to that are what John was referring to when he mentioned "vestiges" that persisted in Orion supplies up until the current product line. And I think you must not have followed the discussion about design philosophy or lineage, relative to these brands borrowing designs from each other. This comment: "these amplifiers are almost exactly designed the same from a circuitry standpoint" is just not accurate. You need to look beyond the shared brands for some internal parts - which is hardly surprising, there are only so many semiconductor brands to choose from - and consider the very different power supply or output stage configurations, not to mention different front end topology. JD >Here's another guy popping out of the woodwork. > [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] >>>>> >>>>> Back in the day, I had an Orion 280Gx and 2150GX they were both rock sold amps. Even now days I would still take 2250SX or 2100HCCA, even more so a 500GS over most of the new stuff out there today. Orion also had a purple NT line which I like very much. Back in the day those amps were real pro gear without any crossovers, fuses, speaker protection and polarity protection just to name some. >If I had to pick out the best amplifier that was ever made by the >ADST family of companies, it would be the GX line from Orion by far. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >(180 degree phase) 1 side to each of the two amplifiers in the >chassis. Just to let you know 2N6488 and 2N6491 devices are not FETS or MOSFETS they are BJT's. MOSFETS are used in power supplies as they are easier to control for high current switching and BJT's are used in output sections mostly due to PNP/NPN complementary pair parameter symmetry. It is also said that BJT's make for "smoother" sound than MOSFET's. Both PPI and Orion used these devices early on and possibly currently. They are good devices. Rated at 80V@15A ( not continuous ). They were once equally well at home in the power supply section as well as output sections as long as the rail voltages of the outputs were less than +/-40V. Fairchild makes good stuff, but the internal die size of many of their devices is smaller than their counterparts. Means, they are not as good at handling overstress. JA > Here's another guy popping out of the woodwork. > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >> > >> >> > >>JD Haven't been used in either brand for some time - the newer high current, low rds FET's just work better in switching supplies. JD >Just to let you know > [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] > > Are you really this dense? Forgive me if someone has already said that a few times (hey, I use the CarAudioForum gateway for RAC so it might be a bit old). So far, this has come out. PPI and Orion use different heatsinks, made from different dies. Ok, so that part goes out the window. They used different topologies. Changing from Orion's topology to PPI's topology would probably require starting from scratch I would imagine. Like trying to make a front wheel drive car rear wheel drive or an automatic car into a stick. Better off starting from scratch than modifying I would think. They DON'T look the same. Look at the pictures. I have owned and sold several of both series of amps and trust me they are not the same. If you put a GX280 back to back with a PPI 2075AM or 2075M they would not even be close when it comes to most of the measurements. They have different connectors for power. Also, the PPI amps didn't need a bridging adaptor like the Orion amps. They use a different heatsink, with a different footprint (so it wasn't like the Sansui and PPI models that were similar sizes with a different look, but similar foot prints). I still don't see why you fail to see what to all of us is so obvious. Some employees at Orion left because they didn't like the way things were being made. Do you think they would start a company to make things exactly like Orion did before them? No, to ensure they didn't get called Orion knock-offs, they used different heatsinks (back then, everyone had a black heatsink with few exceptions) so claiming that because both PPI amps and Orion amps were black so they must be similar is a plain wrong. Juan > *This would explain why early PPI amplifiers looked like Orion GX > knock offs, [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > >effect on the amplifier. In short they can blow up just "because". > > * -- OldOneEye ------------------------------------------------------------------------ CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over one million posts online! View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=167571 I guess that you missed gold's post. I've been reparing Orion PPI and A/D/S/ amplifiers for over 10 years as a hobby. It is not a conicidence that these amplifiers are almost exactly designed the same from a circuitry standpoint. All 3 use the same output fets which are Motorola Semiconductor (2N6488 and 2N6491) (M) and either Fairchild or International Semiconductor on the power supplies. (F) (I~R). All cream of the crop as far as High Tolerance Mosfets, Fets, or Jfets. >I still don't see why you fail to see what to all of us is so obvious. >Some employees at Orion left because they didn't like the way things [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Juan > I guess that you missed gold's post. > > I've been reparing Orion PPI and A/D/S/ amplifiers for over 10 years > as a hobby. It is not a conicidence that these amplifiers are almost > exactly designed the same from a circuitry standpoint. From a circuitry standpoint? You mean a parts standpoint I think. So that takes care of about 2% of the process. What about the other 98%? Care to explain how you came up with that number? Parts and engineering, after all PPI was made by Orion ex-employees >> I guess that you missed gold's post. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >From a circuitry standpoint? You mean a parts standpoint I think. So that >takes care of about 2% of the process. What about the other 98%? > Care to explain how you came up with that number? Parts and engineering, after > all PPI was made by Orion ex-employees So then why are USAcoustics amps nothing like ESX amps? Because there was no cloning done? >> Care to explain how you came up with that number? Parts and engineering, >after >> all PPI was made by Orion ex-employees > >So then why are USAcoustics amps nothing like ESX amps? > Because there was no cloning done? Well, if it's all about parts and the engineering team as you suggest, then those two amps should be identical, right? *sigh* ... PPI (the company) was STARTED by a group of people that had a previous relationship with Orion. So what? Orion was strongly influenced by the original Fosgate (pre-Rockford) amp designs too, does that make ANYTHING else you've written about this stuff true? No, it doesn't... just let it go, wouldya? Look, if you were to say something like: the a/d/s/ EQ300 was the exact same unit electrically as the Orion DEQ30, or that Orion speaker systems used a/d/s/ tooled parts once upon a time, or even that ADST once shipped a/d/s/ powered subs with Orion woofers in them, I wouldn't be wasting my time debating with you. Those things are all true... but what you've stated about Orion and PPI amps being clones or closely related at the point in time you referenced is a load of crap. At least two people that are in a position to know better, one of whom has zero vested interest currently in any of the brands in question, have told you so. Why are you still talking? JD >Care to explain how you came up with that number? Parts and engineering, after >all PPI was made by Orion ex-employees [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> >> Yeah, but much of that was wrong... you need to pick better role models grasshopper. JD >I guess that you missed gold's post. > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> >> Care to point out just how much of it was wrong, you're not really telling me much. I thought you made it clear in your posts that you don't know jack about their products of the yesteryears. I'm not saying that PPI gear is bad, well other then their new junk compared to their old gear. PPI gear is cloned in more ways then one, but that has been pointed out already in the above posts. That's my opinion along with DEI alarms being overpriced in features and in quality,comparing the my 300+ Viper to my $100 Audiovox alarm and I'm sticking to my opinion. Checkout Ebay and you'll see what people are paying for old Orion and PPI amps compared to the new ones. That should make things clear enough for you. Oh, and DEI warranty support sucks a.s in Canada, in Ontario to be exact, replacement parts are hard to get, and your products have too high of a markup (not sure what that means). These are some of the reasons I was given when I asked two local dealers why they dropped DEI and related products such as Orion and PPI from their lineup. Sounds like poor marketing in this area, What do you think JD? >Yeah, but much of that was wrong... you need to pick better role models >grasshopper. > >JD > Checkout Ebay and you'll see what people are paying for old > Orion and PPI amps compared to the new ones. Ah yes, ebay. Where Audiobahn is the biggest seller. Maybe Audiobahn is a little better then you think, i don't know I have never used any of their gear. No one is foced to bid on amps that they don't want on Ebay. If Audiobahn is the biggest seller on Ebay, then their is a reason for it. What is your point? >> Checkout Ebay and you'll see what people are paying for old >> Orion and PPI amps compared to the new ones. > >Ah yes, ebay. Where Audiobahn is the biggest seller. > Maybe Audiobahn is a little better then you think, i don't know I have never > used any of their gear. No one is foced to bid on amps that they don't want on > Ebay. If Audiobahn is the biggest seller on Ebay, then their is a reason for > it. What is your point? My point is that ebay sales are not a valid measure of an amp's quality. I have to agree with that, since some people rather buy an amp because it is cheap. But a valid measure of an amp's quality is the final bid mount that an amp sells for. Example, last week I seen a non-working Orion 500GS sell for over $300, that's about the same price of a brand new 500watt Orion on Ebay. Here is another one, a used Mcintosh MC 431M at $550 (auction is still open), you wont see a used 400 watt Kenwood sell for that price. >> Maybe Audiobahn is a little better then you think, i don't know I have >never [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >My point is that ebay sales are not a valid measure of an amp's quality. > I have to agree with that, since some people rather buy an amp because it is > cheap. But a valid measure of an amp's quality is the final bid mount that an > amp sells for. No, it's not. The final bid amount is a result of what people are willing to spend. You make the assumption that everyone bidding on amplifiers has experience will all the amplifiers available and therfore can make that determination. Nothing can be further from the truth. The fact remains that Kenwood amps, for example, tend to go for more money than the equivalently-rated ESX amps simply because there are more people who have heard of them. Ditto for Infinity speakers versus, say, Macrom. Are you then going to make the claim that Kenwood and Infinity make better equipment than ESX and Macrom? >Example, last week I seen a non-working Orion 500GS sell for > over $300, Whoever paid that much for a broken amp is insane. There's nothing more to it. But I'm no longer surprised by the idiots that buy car audio anyway. > that's about the same price of a brand new 500watt Orion on Ebay. > Here is another one, a used Mcintosh MC 431M at $550 (auction is still open), > you wont see a used 400 watt Kenwood sell for that price. And I provided examples where your assertion is untrue. So why on earth are you using ebay as a measure of an amp's quality? Why not discuss the relative merits of the amplifier itself? This is just puzzling to me... You are telling me that more people heard of brands such a Mcintosh, Audison, Memphis vs Kenwood or Alpine, so they pay more for them? You got to be joking. >> I have to agree with that, since some people rather buy an amp because it >is [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >equivalently-rated ESX amps simply because there are more people who have >heard of them. A used Kenwood KAC-929 goes for about $ 80 - $100 on ebay. I can't seem to find a used ESX Quantum 1752 for less then $150. It seems that more people heard of ESX then Kenwood, in your own words. >Whoever paid that much for a broken amp is insane. There's nothing more to >it. That's because Orion has nothing in their two channel lineup that even comes close to the GS500. The GS500 was Orion's limited edition flagship amplifier, This is the most sawed after Orion amp to date. The few GS500's that I have seen for sale never sold for less then $800. Not bad for an amp that's around 15 years old. >But I'm no longer surprised by the idiots that buy car audio anyway. So what you're saying is that everyone other then yourself is misinformed about their choice of car audio. Aren't you full of yourself. >And I provided examples where your assertion is untrue. So why on earth are >you using ebay as a measure of an amp's quality? Why not discuss the >relative merits of the amplifier itself? This is just puzzling to me... Because it shows that people rather pay more for older gear, because the new stuff is crap. Isn't that how this got started? > You are telling me that more people heard of brands such a Mcintosh, Audison, > Memphis vs Kenwood or Alpine, so they pay more for them? You got to be joking. You're obviously having trouble understanding the entire point I'm trying to make. I'll assume that I haven't been clear enough then. Let's recap. Your assertion is that the price of an amp on ebay tells us how good an amp is. I disagree with that. I provided several examples (of both amps and speakers) that DON'T follow that trend. Although name recognition and stereotypes do in fact play a major role in the price (but have very little to do with the question at hand - quality), reputation and specs also play an important role. That would explain why McIntosh amps tend to go for more than Kenwood amps. But sometimes it's totally screwy. When you've got Alpine amps going for as much as the equivalent Helix amps, then you know that popularity/recognition is also contributing to the price. All in all, you can't say that an amplifier or speaker is as good as the price tag on it! Mark, you could have stopped with the first 5 words: "You're obviously having trouble understanding" JD chump should have that as a epitaph >>You are telling me that more people heard of brands such a Mcintosh, >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > who would pay more for a Memphis than an Alpine? I think you might want to start with a price sheet, and start factoring in original retail and dealer picing, then depreciating for age... then throw all that out, cause ebay pricing is all about finding the right sucker, not about what the product's real value is. and. none of that has a single F#@%#$%$ THING TO DO WITH YOUR BS COMMENTS ABOUT CLONING!!@! JD tired of your noise floor around here >You are telling me that more people heard of brands such a Mcintosh, Audison, >Memphis vs Kenwood or Alpine, so they pay more for them? You got to be joking. [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > >> >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >--------------020208010501090102060205 [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >throw all that out, cause ebay pricing is all about finding the right >sucker, not about what the product's real value is. Actually, I've found that eBay ending prices are pretty consistent, so I don't know how much of it is "about finding the right sucker". Unless you put an obscenely-high "Buy It Now" price on an item, and a sucker bites, the final ballpark price on the item is representative of what *several* people are willing to pay, not just one sucker. I recently bought three PPI Art Series amps on eBay, an A300.2, and A600.2, and an A1200.2. I paid more for them than their modern equivalents cost, but there were several factors involved. My bidding was based on PPI's good reputation for amps of the vintage, my own prior good experiences with one of their older 4100AM amps, and the fact that I specifically wanted the ART graphics. In short, I believe that eBay ending prices *are* representative of an amp's "value", if you allow "value" to include collectibility, rarity, and nostalgia, and not just the engineering worth of the amp. After all, the Mcintosh 150-watt home tube amps routinely go for more than $3000, even though there are superior modern amps for less money. Some people just prefer the looks, sound, and construction of the older Mac amps. Scott Gardner >and. none of that has a single F#@%#$%$ THING TO DO WITH YOUR BS >COMMENTS ABOUT CLONING!!@! [quoted text clipped - 179 lines] > >--------------020208010501090102060205-- Agreed, but two things: one, none of that proves his erroneous statement about the amps in question being clones; two, nostalgia is wonderfully blind at times. I have been in this business for 26 years, and I too have fond memories of products that I worked with and owned "back in the day" ... the difference is, I can also appreciate how much better much of today's product is. Yes, I own two sets of a/d/s/ 2002 powered speakers and the Nakamichi cassette player that went with them. Hell, I even bought a secondhand Advent 201A simply because it was the first deck I ever owned, and learned how to make good tapes with. Doesn't mean I did or would pay a fortune for them on ebay or automatically consider them technically superior to a modern day CD player or component speaker system. I had a car stuffed full of Fosgate amps - PR2100's - that at the time I was totally thrilled by. Today, I know those amps for what they were: temperamental and less than stable. I'd still like to own one again just because, but it would not likely get into a car I drove regularly. JD > > [quoted text clipped - 244 lines] > > Sorry, wasn't trying to take sides with that post. For the record, I was the one that originally described the DIFFERENCES between the Orion and PPI heatsinks in painstaking detail back when this whole "cloning" foolishness thread started. As for my amps, I feel that the series two Art amps hold their own with just about anything modern, as far as sound quality and reliability go. That being said, I think modern amps are a better *value*, because in addition to having good sound, there's a lot more flexibility with built-in signal processing, there are a lot more low-impedance-capable amps out there, the power ratings are up and the prices are down. But, I'm one of the 2% or so that prefers my amplifiers to amplifiy and nothing else. There are enough of us out there that like the Art Series amplifiers that the going prices are pretty stable on eBay. So unless we're *all* suckers, I still say that eBay is an accurate tool for finding out what the market will bear, and not just about finding a "sucker" to dump something on. You notice that no one on eBay gets into a bidding war over an old Rockwood amp, for example. Scott Gardner >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >--------------020503040604000909040900 [quoted text clipped - 279 lines] ><head> > <meta http-equiv="Co tent-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1"> > <title></title> ></head> [quoted text clipped - 290 lines] > >--------------020503040604000909040900-- That's because we are on the topic of " Checkout Ebay and you'll see what people are paying for old Orion and PPI amps compared to the new ones." I'm glad you noticed though. >and. none of that has a single F#@%#$%$ THING TO DO WITH YOUR BS >COMMENTS ABOUT CLONING!!@! > >JD Is that what the topic is? I thought you were on the topic of "let's see how many times the Captain can be wrong in the same thread"... JD >That's because we are on the topic of " Checkout Ebay and you'll see what >people are paying for old Orion and PPI amps compared to the new ones." I'm [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>JD >> >No, it's not. The final bid amount is a result of what people are willing >to spend. You make the assumption that everyone bidding on amplifiers has >experience will all the amplifiers available and therfore can make that >determination. Nothing can be further from the truth. If that is true. Lots of people are familiar with Pyramid and Jensen, and Pyle amps, we both know that these amps are way over rated in power handling. Take any of the above amps and compare it with a 400watt McIntosh, If people truly did not have the right amount of experience or knowledge to purchase amplifiers the out come in this comparison, would be that no one in their right mind would pay more then $30 for a brand new 400watt McIntosh, simply because you can buy a brand new 1400watt Pyle amp for $90. If these people have enough experience to find and use Ebay, I'm sure that they have enough experience to find and use a google search to find information on any given amp along with end user reviews. Bottom line is that people tend to only buy products that they have had some form of experience with, or know someone that has had a positive experience with that product. 20 years ago things might have been different, but today information is cheap and very easy to find. The fact remains >that Kenwood amps, for example, tend to go for more money than the >equivalently-rated ESX amps simply because there are more people who have >heard of them. Check Ebay, you'll see that the ESX Quantum 752 sells for about $50- $75 more then the Kenwood Kac-929. > >No, it's not. The final bid amount is a result of what people are willing > >to spend. You make the assumption that everyone bidding on amplifiers has [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If that is true. Lots of people are familiar with Pyramid and Jensen, and Pyle > amps, we both know that these amps are way over rated in power handling. > Take > any of the above amps and compare it with a 400watt McIntosh, If people > truly did not have the right amount of experience or knowledge to purchase > amplifiers the out come in this comparison, would be that no one in their > right mind would pay more then $30 for a brand new 400watt McIntosh, simply > because you can buy a brand new 1400watt Pyle amp for $90. Well, that's usually the only people who buy the Pyle amps. The people who don't know what they're buying. Or the people who do know what they're buying but realize what it is. > If these people > have enough experience to find and use Ebay, I'm sure that they have enough > experience to find and use a google search to find information on any given > amp along with end user reviews. Most people aren't willing to put that much research into a purchase. Myself included, for some things. > Bottom line is that people tend to only buy > products that they have had some form of experience with, or know someone that > has had a positive experience with that product. Exactly! And more people have had experience (or know someone who has had experience or talked to someone on the net) with the Best Buy or Circuit City amps than ESX amps. Don't you agree? > The fact remains > >that Kenwood amps, for example, tend to go for more money than the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Check Ebay, you'll see that the ESX Quantum 752 sells for about $50- $75 more > then the Kenwood Kac-929. Recently some people overpaid for a Q752. I was actually one of the bidders but I didn't go that high. They spent $150 for it. It tends to go for about $100. I know because I've sold two of them, bought the same two, and check rather often for ESX amps in general. The main reason I get them (and certain a/d/s/ amps) is because they're undervalued on ebay. I don't have a woody for ESX or a/d/s/ in particular. Also, that Kenwood amp puts out about 1/2 the power of the Q752 if I remember correctly. clearly, you are not familar with the concept of "there's an a.s for every seat" it's what makes Ebay so successful, but your argument about those auctions somehow being relevant to your argument about cloning has holes in it big enough to drive a bus through, JD >I have to agree with that, since some people rather buy an amp because it is >cheap. But a valid measure of an amp's quality is the final bid mount that an [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >> >> > Maybe Audiobahn is a little better then you think, i don't know I have never > used any of their gear. No one is foced to bid on amps that they don't want on [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > >Ah yes, ebay. Where Audiobahn is the biggest seller. one reason that Audiobahn sells well on eBay is because it looks pretty, most people buy car audio comp. based on looks printed specs. when they get a little knowledge they learn to buy the used McIn amp and not the 1000kws for $79.95 1 megawatt for $79.99? I want one! Will I need to add a stiffening cap to my system? How about a new alternator and extra battery? Sorry TG, had to do it ;-) > > Maybe Audiobahn is a little better then you think, i don't know I have > never [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > a little knowledge they learn to buy the used McIn amp and not the 1000kws > for $79.95 > 1 megawatt for $79.99? I want one! Will I need to add a stiffening cap to > my system? How about a new alternator and extra battery? > > Sorry TG, had to do it ;-) that's funny, but a lot of people think like this and when I try to tell them that Helix is good they look at me crazy, "I've never heard of it how can it be any good, is it better than JL?" Sounds like you should be bitching at Directed Canada, not me. They are an independent firm that distributes and markets our products in Canada - and a really great bunch of guys too. However, I have nothing to do with the way they market our security products in Canada so barking at me about it is truly a waste of time. I will say however that if your local dealers want to walk away from doing business with the largest, most successful vehicle security company in the world in favor of buying Canadian-produced product that doesn't have an import tariff - nice free trade policy there, by the way - there's little I can do about it and good luck to them. The support program is not ours either, so be more careful when you say things like "DEI warranty support sucks" - you're slandering the wrong company. DEI is an abbreviation of Directed Electronics, Inc. - once again, that's us, not the company you're talking about. On the rest of the Orion/PPI stuff, give it up - you're wrong, and making a fool of yourself arguing the point with John and me, not to mention Paul and others that don't work for any of the companies in question but that are far more expert on the product than you. Trying to use a guy that said otherwise but was proven wrong in half his comments almost immediately - with supporting evidence int he form of parts data sheets mind you - is just about as stupid as engaging John and me on the subject in the first place. He's clearly either worked for one or more of these companies back in the day, and I am currently the product manager for all the brands in question. You really think you have some inside scoop on this stuff that we don't? Please... Let me repeat: PPI gear is not cloned, never has been cloned, and as long as I have anything to say about it - and I do, that's my job currently - never will be. Same comments can be taken as gospel for Orion and a/d/s/, not to mention Directed Audio. JD >Care to point out just how much of it was wrong, you're not really telling me >much. I thought you made it clear in your posts that you don't know jack about [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> >> >Sounds like you should be bitching at Directed Canada, not me. They are >an independent firm that distributes and markets our products in Canada >- and a really great bunch of guys too. However, I have nothing to do >with the way they market our security products in Canada so barking at >me about it is truly a waste of time. Unfortunately things like this do not reflect on just marketing or a company in part, but they do reflect on the company in whole. What company hired this independent firm that distributes and markets your products in Canada? The support program is not ours either, so be more >careful when you say things like "DEI warranty support sucks" - you're >slandering the wrong company. DEI is an abbreviation of Directed >Electronics, Inc. - once again, that's us, not the company you're >talking about. Slandering??? There is nothing false about my statement, so where do you get slander from? This is what two local dealers had to say when asked why they no longer carry DEI products. This independent firm that distributes and markets your products in Canada represents who by doing so? > Slandering??? There is nothing false about my statement, Yes there is. You said DEI sucks when it's not DEI that you should be mad at, but the marketing firm in Canada that's distributing their product. > so where do you get > slander from? This is what two local dealers had to say when asked why they no > longer carry DEI products. Then they're not very intelligent people and probably won't be in business too much longer if they can't tell the difference between DEI and a DEI distributor. Paul Vina >> Slandering??? There is nothing false about my statement, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> slander from? This is what two local dealers had to say when asked why >they no longer carry DEI products. You must of not understood my post. I said that this was what two dealers had to say. DEI sucks!!! There you go NOW I said it. >Then they're not very intelligent people and probably won't be in business >too much longer if they can't tell the difference between DEI and a DEI >distributor. In Canada new items are sold with a "manufacture's warranty" and not a distributor's warranty. You can also buy extended warranties from retailers. These warranties go into affect after the manufacture's warranty runs out, even though most retailers contract these warranties to other companies to do the repairs, it is the retailer that is responsible to uphold these warranties as is the manufacture and not the companies that the retailer or manufacture contracts. So why in the world would anyone want to worry or have to deal with someone else's problems ? Let me make this really easy for you. You walk into a shopping mall after a cleaning crew that was hired my the mall did some cleaning and left the floor wet, you slip and fall. Who do you sue, The cleaning crew that was hired by the mall or the mall itself? As a matter of fact the one dealer in question has been around since that 70's, and the other store since the late 80's. I think that's long enough to go without question. > You must of not understood my post. I said that this was what two dealers had > to say. DEI sucks!!! There you go NOW I said it. In other words you're saying you weren't intelligent enough to form your own opinion about a product. In fact, you still aren't if you belive the word of 2 dealers over the rest of the car audio world. > In Canada new items are sold with a "manufacture's warranty" and not a > distributor's warranty. You can also buy extended warranties from retailers. > These warranties go into affect after the manufacture's warranty runs out, Ummmmm.......DEI offers a lifetime warranty if installed by an authorized dealer. Why are you paying extra for what DEI provides for free? > even though most retailers contract these warranties to other companies to do > the repairs, it is the retailer that is responsible to uphold these warranties [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > cleaning and left the floor wet, you slip and fall. Who do you sue, The > cleaning crew that was hired by the mall or the mall itself? Because this is SO relevant to the discussion at hand. > As a matter of fact the one dealer in question has been around since that > 70's, and the other store since the late 80's. I think that's long enough to > go without question. You'd think so. Paul Vina Paul, Our warranty covers the US... Canada and Mexico have their own, separate program run by the distributor in place. Not that it should matter much, when you ship product that has as microscopically small of a true defect rate as our alarms do... JD >>You must of not understood my post. I said that this was what two dealers >> [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > > And that even furthers proves what a dumbass he is. He should definitely be more upset with the distributor. Paul Vina Paul, Our warranty covers the US... Canada and Mexico have their own, separate program run by the distributor in place. Not that it should matter much, when you ship product that has as microscopically small of a true defect rate as our alarms do... JD Paul Vina wrote: You must of not understood my post. I said that this was what two dealers had to say. DEI sucks!!! There you go NOW I said it. In other words you're saying you weren't intelligent enough to form your own opinion about a product. In fact, you still aren't if you belive the word of 2 dealers over the rest of the car audio world. In Canada new items are sold with a "manufacture's warranty" and not a distributor's warranty. You can also buy extended warranties from retailers. These warranties go into affect after the manufacture's warranty runs out, Ummmmm.......DEI offers a lifetime warranty if installed by an authorized dealer. Why are you paying extra for what DEI provides for free? even though most retailers contract these warranties to other companies to do the repairs, it is the retailer that is responsible to uphold these warranties as is the manufacture and not the companies that the retailer or manufacture contracts. So why in the world would anyone want to worry or have to deal with someone else's problems ? Let me make this really easy for you. You walk into a shopping mall after a cleaning crew that was hired my the mall did some cleaning and left the floor wet, you slip and fall. Who do you sue, The cleaning crew that was hired by the mall or the mall itself? Because this is SO relevant to the discussion at hand. As a matter of fact the one dealer in question has been around since that 70's, and the other store since the late 80's. I think that's long enough to go without question. You'd think so. Paul Vina >And that even furthers proves what a dumbass he is. He should = >definitely be more upset with the distributor. You are as clueless as they come. When I buy a DEI product, I am buying the product through the retailer and distributor, when a retailer buys a product he/she buys it through the distributor. But the manufacture is still responsible to uphold the warranty or to make sure that the warranty is being upheld by the contracted party. Do I need to spell this out for you Paul? >Paul Vina > [quoted text clipped - 182 lines] > >------=_NextPart_000_0124_01C3CA45.F6F34C80-- I don't know about spelling it out for Paul, but you should go check your facts... warranty laws don't cross national borders. JD >>And that even furthers proves what a dumbass he is. He should = >>definitely be more upset with the distributor. [quoted text clipped - 196 lines] >> >> Call the the Federal Trade Commission and ask for the International Division of Consumer Protection about that, or in Canada call the Competition Bureau, Industry Canada. You moron >I don't know about spelling it out for Paul, but you should go check >your facts... warranty laws don't cross national borders. Why don't you do your own legwork and post it here, instead of stooping to childish namecalling? It's not like I have anything to prove, but clearly YOU have an agenda. Don't expect me to do your research for you... You could also quit changing the subject and go back to what started this, your erroneous jumping to concusions about the commonality of older Orion and PPI designs... or have you finally figured out how far off base you were? JD >Call the the Federal Trade Commission and ask for the International Division >of Consumer Protection about that, or in Canada call the Competition Bureau, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> But the manufacture is still > responsible to uphold the warranty or to make sure that the warranty is being > upheld by the contracted party. Do I need to spell this out for you Paul? Actually JD explained it in his last post. DEI warranties in Canada are handled by Directed Canada, not DEI. Do I need to spell it out for you? Paul Vina >> You must of not understood my post. I said that this was what two dealers >had [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >opinion about a product. In fact, you still aren't if you belive the word >of 2 dealers over the rest of the car audio world. There you go again, you're total off track. This is not about what I think, This is about why local dealers dropped DEI products. These are two dealers that I have talked to personally regarding this issue. None of them said anything negative about DEI products, they said negative things about their service/support. This group does not represent that the car audio world my any means, nor does it apply to the rest of the car audio world. It's a Canadian support issue. >> In Canada new items are sold with a "manufacture's warranty" and not a >> distributor's warranty. You can also buy extended warranties from [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Ummmmm.......DEI offers a lifetime warranty if installed by an authorized >dealer. Why are you paying extra for what DEI provides for free? This has nothing to do with DEI's warranty or it's length, this is an example just to give you a better understanding about how warranties work. >> even though most retailers contract these warranties to other companies to >do [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Because this is SO relevant to the discussion at hand. It's totally irrelevant, because the warranty is given by the manufacture and not the distributor. I don't think that this would be all that hard to understand. >> As a matter of fact the one dealer in question has been around since that >> 70's, and the other store since the late 80's. I think that's long enough [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Paul Vina Re: "There is nothing false about my statement" Yes, there is. You wrote: "DEI warranty support sucks" That is not true, nor does your inability to distinguish between DEI (us) and Directed Canada (our customer) make it true. We do not handle warranty in Canada, and blind surveys of dealers in the US market score our warranty support in the low-to-mid 4's (out of a possible 5, 1 being low and 5 being the best). By the way, maybe you use a different version of the English language up there, but how exactly does one "hire" a customer? These guys work for themselves, not us - hence my use of the term "independent firm". Get it now? I'm starting to wonder if you ever argue about something you truly understand, or just fumble around in the dark like this 24/7... JD > > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >your products in Canada represents who by doing so? > I don't care who handles your warranty or to whom you sell your product to, nor does the law care. As long as you manufacturer the products in question you are fully liable for them and their warranty. If you had a independent firm manufacturing your products in Canada and selling them under the a different brand name, or even under the name "Directed Canada" separating you from your Canadian market under the laws of incorporation that would have been a totally different story. Now go back to sweeping the floor. >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >--------------060102080902070606020404 [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >our warranty support in the low-to-mid 4's (out of a possible 5, 1 being >low and 5 being the best). >By the way, maybe you use a different version of the English language up >there, but how exactly does one "hire" a customer? These guys work for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >JD Where did you dig this theory up? You're almost as clueless about trade law as you are about amplifiers... JD seems to me that everyone and his cousin here at RAC has been sweeping the floor with you, frankly >I don't care who handles your warranty or to whom you sell your product to, >nor does the law care. As long as you manufacturer the products in question [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Like I said, make a phone call, you'll see just what a moron you really are. The only thing that you know is how to talk out your a.s about your products. Trying to tell people how good your new products are while you openly admitted that you don't know sh.t about the products that companies such Orion, PPI and ADS produced before DEI bought them out. Only a moron would believe anything that you have to say about DEI related products. We both know that the truth would be against your best interest. >Where did you dig this theory up? You're almost as clueless about trade >law as you are about amplifiers... > >JD >seems to me that everyone and his cousin here at RAC has been sweeping >the floor with you, frankly Sounds like someone's holiday eggnog was spiked pretty hard this holiday season... n8 > Like I said, make a phone call, you'll see just what a moron you really are. > The only thing that you know is how to talk out your a.s about your products. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >seems to me that everyone and his cousin here at RAC has been sweeping > >the floor with you, frankly Don't put words in my mouth, pal... what I said was I didn't know the inner details about the companies in question during that part of their history. I know the products a lot better than you, which is no surprise given I worked with many of them over the 17 years I spent working in retail before moving to Directed. My first exposure was with a/d/s/ products starting in 1977, at Howard Sound's Denver and Boulder locations. We sold and installed the a/d/s/ 2002/Nakamichi 250 systems, also the passive 200C and 300C. I own a couple of those systems still... also worked with more of that early stuff including the 2001 version with outboard power amp, the first-gen P100 PowerPlate, 300i's, pretty much all of their mobile products in the period of 1981-1993 here in San Diego while working at Radioman, and again after founding La Jolla Audio where we carried the entire mobile line. We were also an authorized Orion dealer, and as I mentioned elsewhere, dabbled in Precision Power. We also had a good friend that built competition vehicles with PPI at the time, and spent sometime playing with their larger surfboard models as a result. I've installed and repaired all of the above, along the way. It's not clear to me what your expertise on these products stems from, other than being confused by a similar heat sink shape. And, you seem very willing to ignore the comments by John Andreen, all of which rebutted your claims and which demonstrated a very expert knowledge of the companies and their products back then. What's wrong, you only go after people you think can't defend themselves? Whatever, you picked the wrong target this time... but go on insulting me if it makes you feel better about yourself. It's a lousy excuse for knowing what you're talking about though... I'm sure some of the other "morons" that have listened to what I have said here about DEI products over the past few years will enjoy your opinion of them, too. JD >Like I said, make a phone call, you'll see just what a moron you really are. >The only thing that you know is how to talk out your a.s about your products. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> >> JD, lets break this down. This all started with my comment about Directed 2003 amplifier line looking like the old Alpine V12 line. I do admit that I did push the issue a little far because you started getting fired up about it, only to be a prick. This brings me to topic number 2, PPI amplifier cloning. I not know for a fact that their was cloning going on with the early PPI amp line, But I do feel that they do/did "look" like Orion GX knock offs with only the black paint missing, and a hell of a lot more then the Directed 2003 amplifier line looking like the old Alpine V12 line. Not that it even matters 20 years later, give or take a few years. Better yet, not that it ever mattered at any time. Topic number 3, Overpriced DEI alarms. Comparing my Viper and Audiovox, I don't see anything that justifies the extra $200. They both have same options. They both still work. The viper is 5 years old and the audiovox is 6 years old, both on their second car. Topic number 4, Older is better. I truly do believe that older PPI, Orion gear is better then their new gear. Their other people that feel that same including John Andreen on the PPI part anyways, I know that you read the post in question and ignored his comments on that issue, just as I did regarding cloning. I also believe that Ebay sales and final bid prices speak for themselves. You don't see the same clueless people paying more for 15- 20 year old Hu. Topic number 5, DEI's poor Canadian product support. This is what two dealers had to say when asked why they dropped DEI products. Why would they both lie, they have nothing to gain by saying this. Topic 6, Warranty support, who is responsible, the suppler or manufacturer. The law simply states that the supplier is fully responsible if the supplier does not identify the manufacturer, at which point the supplier will be seen as the manufacturer. In fact they are both responsible. If you were to sue, you could sue both. Trade laws don't stop at any boarders, not anymore. The same stands for Family law and Ecommerce law. But like I said, the truth is only a phone call away. Who do I go after? You, Mark and Paul? You all can defend yourselves just fine, well maybe not Paul never the less he tries. LOL. John, I can truly say that I enjoy and agree with most of your posts, as I do with Mark's and Paul's posts. I just feel that your posts regarding DEI are a little one-sided. This is the only reason I rattled your cage about DEI. I also know that this post wouldn't of went as far as it did , if it wasn't regarding DEI. >And, you seem very willing to ignore the comments by John Andreen, all >of which rebutted your claims and which demonstrated a very expert [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >JD It's easy to take shots at successful companies like Directed... when they're justified by the facts, assuming any facts are presented, I typically ignore them. When things written about us or our products are misrepresented or outright untrue, I am more likely to respond. I try to avoid taking a purely company line in the process, as it makes what I write less credible. Sticking to facts is the better approach. If everyone on the internet would avoid posting their speculations, myths, and gossip as fact, it would be a much better place. Less entertaining maybe, but better... I will comment on one part of your last post, although again I have nothing personally to do with our alarm business these days: the overwhelming majority of dealers and customers in the US does not agree with your assessment. The survey results that track opinions of our security products and their value vs. other brands like Audiovox emphatically show that people do recognize the difference and are willing to pay for it. We've earned that position through years of consistent quality, and a lot of hard work in engineering, product and customer support areas. If you don't agree, that's your prerogative - but you're in the minority. On the ebay subject, a casual looksuggests that pricing is not driven by "old is better" but by simple supply and demand. Old products are scarcer, and no longer available in quantity at wholesale prices by dealers - or from manufacturers that dump goods that way sometimes. That means the products being sold are mostly by end users, that paid more for them than a dealer would have. I would expect them to sell for more than current product which by comparison is relatively available and in the hands of dealers that paid less for them in the first place. Throw in the predisposition of a certain class of consumers to buy into the "older is better" mythology (not that it isn't true some times, but never as often as the auction market would have you believe), and the model is complete. JD >JD, lets break this down. This all started with my comment about Directed 2003 >amplifier line looking like the old Alpine V12 line. I do admit that I did [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >> >> >I will comment on one part of your last post, although again I have >nothing personally to do with our alarm business these days: the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >customer support areas. If you don't agree, that's your prerogative - >but you're in the minority. I totally believe that to be true. As a matter of fact both of the dealers that I have talked with (the same ones from my previous posts) said nothing but positive things regarding DEI and Clifford alarms. One of them went as far as saying that, I quote" We do not reinstall used alarms with the exception of Viper alarms, due to their low failure rate". From my own experience, I have had no problems over the past 5 years with my Viper 300+, the only thing that I don't like about this model is the built in shock sensor, which is turned off anyways, since I find them to be a pain in the butt with any alarm built in or not. Both the Viper and Audiovox we own have a proximity sensor in place of the shock sensor. This far I have installed 6 or 7 audiovox alarms (never any all-in-ones) for friends and family over the past 15 years and never had any negative results or need for warranty repairs, unlike a crimestopper alarm I used to own. We also have a pair of Valet car starters that work great, both of them are in their second car and are used all year around, since both cars have AC. >On the ebay subject, a casual looksuggests that pricing is not driven by >"old is better" but by simple supply and demand. Old products are [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >JD Let me ask you this, Why are older products in demand at all? There is no shortage of new products to place a high or higher demand on old products. Unlike cars, car amplifiers have no classic or vintage value only a higher chance of failure due to age. If you could buy a brand new amplifier of equal or better quality for less money or just a little more money with a warranty, why buy a used one? That's an excellent question :-) JD >Let me ask you this, Why are older products in demand at all? There is no >shortage of new products to place a high or higher demand on old products. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >why buy a used one? > >I will comment on one part of your last post, although again I have >nothing personally to do with our alarm business these days: the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >customer support areas. If you don't agree, that's your prerogative - >but you're in the minority. I totally believe that to be true. As a matter of fact both of the dealers that I have talked with (the same ones from my previous posts) said nothing but positive things regarding DEI and Clifford alarms. One of them went as far as saying that, I quote" We do not reinstall used alarms with the exception of Viper alarms, due to their low failure rate". From my own experience, I have had no problems over the past 5 years with my Viper 300+, the only thing that I don't like about this model is the built in shock sensor, which is turned off anyways, since I find them to be a pain in the butt with any alarm built in or not. Both the Viper and Audiovox we own have a proximity sensor in place of the shock sensor. This far I have installed 6 or 7 audiovox alarms (never any all-in-ones) for friends and family over the past 15 years and never had any negative results or need for warranty repairs, unlike a crimestopper alarm I used to own. We also have a pair of Valet car starters that work great, both of them are in their second car also and are used all year around, since both cars have AC. >On the ebay subject, a casual looksuggests that pricing is not driven by >"old is better" but by simple supply and demand. Old products are [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >JD Let me ask you this, Why are older products in demand at all? There is no shortage of new products to place a high or higher demand on old products. Unlike cars, car amplifiers have no classic or vintage value only a higher chance of failure due to age. If you could buy a brand new amplifier of equal or better quality for less money or just a little more money with a warranty, why buy a used one? > Topic number 4, Older is better. I truly do believe that older PPI, Orion gear > is better then their new gear. Their other people that feel that same [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > themselves. You don't see the same clueless people paying more for 15- 20 year > old Hu. I think you have to take each amp and company on it's own merits, what used to be good, doesn't always work for now times. Which Class T amps are you refering to? If you mean the ones with th plastic cases, those were dropped from the lineup for reliabilit issues quite a while ago in fact, that is why you see them gettin blown out. Juan > *I just like the fact that MTX is doing their own thing in regards t > building [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > system > >with MTX amps for a while. The old Thunder 2300 and a Thunder 2175. - OldOneEy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over one million posts online View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=16757 Me a noob? Funny Rec.Audio.Car Post from about 8 years ago: http://tinyurl.com/37tt Febuary 1996. Had only recently discovered the internet at that poin really. Did a search in Google for my email (had it for about 8 years as well tons of junkmail at this point) http://tinyurl.com/37tt 2000 plus results. Car Audio Forum: http://tinyurl.com/3cqov 450 posts, 4/2000 register date Elite Car Audio Forums: http://tinyurl.com/yvd2h 1100 posts, Ultimate Member. 8/99 register date SoundDomain Forums: http://tinyurl.com/2rzvz 924 posts, Admin/Mod. 1/2000 Register Date TermPro forums http://tinyurl.com/2cwhy 426 posts, Member # 127 (14000+ members at this point), 6/1999 registe date. CarSound Forum http://tinyurl.com/395d2 1500+ Posts, 6/2000 register date, Ultra Member. Canadian Car Audio Forum http://tinyurl.com/25mq9 150+ posts, 12/2000 register date. About 6500+ posts on several car audio related forums. Seems to me that OldOneEye > Captain Obvious. Juan > *What is your point other then being a noob? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > >Juan - OldOneEy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over one million posts online View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=16757 "Captain Howdy" <user@host.net> wrote in message > I'm I on crack?, no. HA... fuggin classic... The GX heat sink was not the same as the PPI model you're talking about. It was wider, and flatter. They did at some point make Orion amps that were taller, not as wide, and longer - The Beast for example - but still not the same metal. Again, at the time you're talking, these were two separate companies. PPI did do some contract manufacturing for a couple of companies - Crutchfield and Phillips USA as I recall - but they never built for Orion. In fact, if you know any of the people from either organization, I think they'd have died before they shared any designs or parts. As to the RCA's and the socket-head Allen bolts, give me a break already... if the most you can say to prove your point is that they bought from the same parts supplier. or picked the same connector out of a catalog, you're grasping at straws. I can buy the same bolts today - in fact, I have a few boxes sitting in my garage - from local bolt suppliers like Ababa. They were used by virtually everybody that was bolting products like this together in the US back then. My old Zapco's use them and so did Audiomobile. As to the DIN plug, the commonality is that both companies have a common ancestry dating back to Jim Fosgate, and some people that learned a lot about amps from him in the early days of the Phoenix car audio explosion. He had phantom power DIN cable designs to drive outboard processors as early as 1977 - I had two of them in my VW Rabbit at the time. So yes, both companies used phantom power for their processors for several years. Big whoop... JD >I'm I on crack?, no. Very good and thank for the history lession. Take a good >look, and I mean I good look at the PPi-2150M and Orion GX line of [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] >>>> >> >The GX heat sink was not the same as the PPI model you're talking about. >It was wider, and flatter. They did at some point make Orion amps that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >organization, I think they'd have died before they shared any designs or >parts. yeah they did contract work. I had a couple Phillips Sound Labs amps from them at one time....thye also made some crossover models for them as well.... >As to the RCA's and the socket-head Allen bolts, give me a break >already... if the most you can say to prove your point is that they [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] >>>>> >>> Stephen Narayan | IASCA Pro Street 1-600 | IASCA Certified Judge 2003 Audio Perfection | audioperfection@sympatico.ca No System.....yup that's right. Why not check out my car audio museum :) http://canuck.audioguy.net/gear.html When we came along, there were essentially three companies living together under one roof. They did share a few things here and there, like Orion speaker systems that used a/d/s/ driver parts, and once upon a time an a/d/s/ powered sub that used an Orion woofer, but for the most part the brands did not mix at all. Not a bad thing in many ways, but far from efficient. JD >Are you on crack? PPI and Orion were two separate companies until ADST >bought them both. Even then the designs were still separate. [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > dude, where do you get this stuff?!! Anyone who has ever had their hands on them knows that Art Series had absolutely nothing in common with Orion. The two were different companies up until the very late 90's. Also, the 2150M isn't an Art model. Orion never made an amp with no fins, ever. JD I'm not the 100% expert on that period of the two company's histories mind you but everything you've written so far that has "Orion" or "PPI" in it has been totally boofoo >You're right. I dont see nothing wrong with a little bit of the retro look.You >thought that I would point that out. Just like back in the day When PPI [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >>> >> John here's a pic of the 2150M http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3063103910&category=18797 Here's a pic of the Art Series http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3062295868&category=18796 Are you sure the 2150M isn't an Art model? Here's a pic of a Orion GX amplifier, what does that remind you of? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3061181691&category=18796 >dude, where do you get this stuff?!! Anyone who has ever had their hands >on them knows that Art Series had absolutely nothing in common with [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >mind you but everything you've written so far that has "Orion" or "PPI" >in it has been totally boofoo They're similar, but not the same. The fins on the Orion are laid down more where the PPIs are more vertical. Profile used to have amos that looked like these too. Maybe PI and Orion stole the designs from them! a.s. Paul Vina > John here's a pic of the 2150M http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3063103910&category=18797 > Here's a pic of the Art Series http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3062295868&category=18796 > Are you sure the 2150M isn't an Art model? > > Here's a pic of a Orion GX amplifier, what does that remind you of? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3061181691&category=18796 > >dude, where do you get this stuff?!! Anyone who has ever had their hands > >on them knows that Art Series had absolutely nothing in common with [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >mind you but everything you've written so far that has "Orion" or "PPI" > >in it has been totally boofoo > John here's a pic of the 2150M <snip> > Here's a pic of a Orion GX amplifier, what does that remind you of? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3061181691&category=18796 about a bazillion other amps. Seriously. It's got fins, and the middle is flat.. NEVER seen an amp that looked anything remotely like that, EVER narcolept ----- </sarcasm off> > >dude, where do you get this stuff?!! Anyone who has ever had their hands > >on them knows that Art Series had absolutely nothing in common with [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >mind you but everything you've written so far that has "Orion" or "PPI" > >in it has been totally boofoo For some reason he can't seem to grasp that concept. Paul Vina > > John here's a pic of the 2150M > <snip> > > Here's a pic of a Orion GX amplifier, what does that remind you of? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3061181691&category=18796 > about a bazillion other amps. Seriously. It's got fins, and the middle is > flat.. NEVER seen an amp that looked anything remotely like that, EVER [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > >mind you but everything you've written so far that has "Orion" or "PPI" > > >in it has been totally boofoo > For some reason he can't seem to grasp that concept. > > Paul Vina it seems like there are SEVERAL concepts that he doesn't grasp.... narcolept -------- like the concept of thinking. > > > John here's a pic of the 2150M > > <snip> > > > Here's a pic of a Orion GX amplifier, what does that remind you of? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3061181691&category=18796 > > about a bazillion other amps. Seriously. It's got fins, and the middle is > > flat.. NEVER seen an amp that looked anything remotely like that, EVER [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > > >mind you but everything you've written so far that has "Orion" or "PPI" > > > >in it has been totally boofoo You guys are killin' me tonight! Paul Vina > > For some reason he can't seem to grasp that concept. > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > > <snip> > > > > Here's a pic of a Orion GX amplifier, what does that remind you of? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3061181691&category=18796 > > > about a bazillion other amps. Seriously. It's got fins, and the middle > is [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > "PPI" > > > > >in it has been totally boofoo >John here's a pic of the 2150M >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3063103910&category=18797 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Are you sure the 2150M isn't an Art model? Well, it has the same type of graphics as the later "Art" series. I had a PPI 4100AM that looked just like it. It's just a semantic issue - I don't think they weren't officially called the "Art Series" by PPI until the A100, A200 etcetera came out, but I remember calling my 4100AM an "Art Series" at the time, so I think the name was around informally before PPI actually began to use it as a series name. In the PPI lineage, the "M" series begat the "AM" series, begat the "Art" series, begat the "PC" begat the "PCX". So, while you could buy a 4100AM with the white paint and multi-colour silkscreened graphics in 1991 (like I did), you couldn't buy an official "Art Series" PPI amp until 1993, when the equivalent to the 4100AM would have been called the A204. >Here's a pic of a Orion GX amplifier, what does that remind you of? >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3061181691&category=18796 It looks similar, but the heatsink fins are actually shaped differently. All they have in common is the "fins on top, fins on bottom, finless strip down the middle" design, and that was a fairly common scheme at the time. Here's an auction with a good end-view of a PPI 2075 (same chassis style as the 2150M and 4100AM) http://tinyurl.com/y0z6 Look at the seven fins above the "finless strip" and the seven fins below. They're all the same height, and they're all parallel, both lengthwise and widthwise. You could lay a straightedge across the amp and it would touch all fourteen of those fins at the same time. This auction has a good end-view of an Orion GX: http://tinyurl.com/y0yw See how the fins aren't the same height? They're shorter next to the "finless strip" and get taller as they proceed to the edge of the amp. So yes, the older "M" and "AM" amps did look superficially similar to the Orion GX and HCCA amps, but they weren't the same heatsinks. Scot Gardner >>dude, where do you get this stuff?!! Anyone who has ever had their hands >>on them knows that Art Series had absolutely nothing in common with [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>mind you but everything you've written so far that has "Orion" or "PPI" >>in it has been totally boofoo thanks for filling in the detail on that, Scott - you have a clearer picture of that part of the PPI chronology than I do. JD > > [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > > Very sure, granted they share the white paint job and mural, but the innards and the extrusion are not the same at all. At least not identical at all - they probably share some design topology similarities and parts selection - the PPI at least, The Orion is still going to be more different yet. One thing I can tell you for sure, the GX used complimentary bipolar transistors for the power supply (2N6488, 2N6490 pairs - something like that) where the 2150M used MOSFET's - hence the "M" in the model number. On the Orion, look specifically at the broad, fly-cut aluminum strips on the heat sink. Now look at the 2150M - see how the fins end without that wide section as they reach the center low area? Totally different extrusions. Other than the (fairly common) placement and size of the fins, and the center area that's left flat so you can put some markings on the heat sink, these are not that similar. I can see why you would think there's a connection - there is, but it's not what you thought, it's the shared heritage and history of amplifier design and manufacturing in the Valley of the Sun. A lot of stuff looked more similar back then - nowadays it's a much more cutthroat market and you can't get anyone excited with generic looking product. JD >John here's a pic of the 2150M >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3063103910&category=18797 [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> >> >Very sure, granted they share the white paint job and mural, but the >innards and the extrusion are not the same at all. At least not [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >pairs - something like that) where the 2150M used MOSFET's - hence the >"M" in the model number. You are 100% correct, non of the Orion GX stuff was mosfet, it was all bi-polar. >On the Orion, look specifically at the broad, fly-cut aluminum strips on >the heat sink. Now look at the 2150M - see how the fins end without that >wide section as they reach the center low area? Totally different >extrusions. Other than the (fairly common) placement and size of the >fins, and the center area that's left flat so you can put some markings >on the heat sink, these are not that similar. I see your point there. >I can see why you would think there's a connection - there is, but it's >not what you thought, it's the shared heritage and history of amplifier [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >>> >>> (scratching my head as I look at the calendar showing it's damn near 2004) thanks for stopping by... JD better late than never, I suppose >I just seen the 2003 Directed amplifiers at their website. I hate to say it, >but they look like Alpine V12 knock-offs. > (scratching my nutts as I look at the Directed website seeing the 2003 models and thinking, What's JD trying to say?) >(scratching my head as I look at the calendar showing it's damn near 2004) > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>but they look like Alpine V12 knock-offs. >> That you didn't notice they looked like Alpines (or chose not to bitch about it, anyway) until 2 months before CES when they're likely to be replaced. Paul Vina > (scratching my nutts as I look at the Directed website seeing the 2003 models > and thinking, What's JD trying to say?) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >>I just seen the 2003 Directed amplifiers at their website. I hate to say it, > >>but they look like Alpine V12 knock-offs. What are you smoking? If I didn't notice that they looked like Alpines, I wouldn't of posted the fact. LOL Until the 2004 line is available to the public, the 2003 line is still current, so what is your point? >That you didn't notice they looked like Alpines (or chose not to bitch about >it, anyway) until 2 months before CES when they're likely to be replaced. > >Paul Vina ha ha ha Like I have been telling you fools for years, they are all made in the same garage in Tiawan! ha ha ha > If I didn't notice that they looked like Alpines, I > wouldn't of posted the fact. LOL JD was saying that it took you almost a year to realize that they look like an Alpine. He never debated them being current. Only that your powers of observation ar a little.......lacking. Paul Vina > What are you smoking? If I didn't notice that they looked like Alpines, I > wouldn't of posted the fact. LOL Until the 2004 line is available to the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > >Paul Vina Paul, to tell you the truth. I didn't know that Directed even made car audio. I only went to their website to checkout their alarm gear. I live by Toronto, Ontario and no one sells their stuff around here, other then their alarms. >JD was saying that it took you almost a year to realize that they look like >an Alpine. He never debated them being current. Only that your powers of >observation ar a little.......lacking. > >Paul Vina It truely is a shame that they are not that well represented....I've seen them around here though (I'm in Toronto). Definitely don't get everything available from them though. Too bad.....The distributor Directed Canada and Automobility in Montreal haven't penetrated the Toronto market...... >Paul, to tell you the truth. I didn't know that Directed even made car audio. >I only went to their website to checkout their alarm gear. I live by Toronto, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >>Paul Vina Stephen Narayan | IASCA Pro Street 1-600 | IASCA Certified Judge 2003 Audio Perfection | audioperfection@sympatico.ca No System.....yup that's right. Why not check out my car audio museum :) http://canuck.audioguy.net/gear.html I'm in Hamilton and no one around here sell their amplifiers. There two dealers that sell some of their lower end alarms. Their alarms aren't that great of a value anyways. 5 years ago I bought their Viper 300+ alarm for $345 with tax. A year before that, I bought an Audiovox alarm for the wife's car for $115 with tax, with the same options all the way to the same sounding horn. The remotes even have the same range. Both alarms are on their second car now, both still work fine, other then the viper has started locking up for some reason about 8 months ago, this only happened 3 times so far. When this happens the parking lights will flash once or twice to show system arm or disarm without a beep and when the alarm is triggered the horn does not work. Unplugging the alarm fuse gets it working again. With this problem aside. The only difference is that the Viper this far cost me $69 a year to own. The Audiovox alarm being a year older cost me $19.16 to own this far. If I have bought 3 Audiovox alarms the price of owning them would have been the same as the viper, yet two of those alarms would still be unused. Most people don't see this since the average person owns their car for 2-5 years and most often sells their alarm with the car. Those that do remove their alarms or try to have their alarms removed quickly learn the fact that most install shops will not reinstall used alarms. >It truely is a shame that they are not that well represented....I've >seen them around here though (I'm in Toronto). Definitely don't get >everything available from them though. Too bad.....The distributor >Directed Canada and Automobility in Montreal haven't penetrated the >Toronto market...... that was my first assessment ... based on the content of some other posts, I'm thinking of shifting it lower :-) JD >JD was saying that it took you almost a year to realize that they look like >an Alpine. He never debated them being current. Only that your powers of [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > I guess the point would be, thanks for stopping by finally, i.e. we put that stuff up during CES in Jan 2003, and you just now got a look. JD making a mental note to shill more on RAC in the off-season >(scratching my nutts as I look at the Directed website seeing the 2003 models >and thinking, What's JD trying to say?) [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >>> >>> |
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