Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Car Audio / April 2004
Damping Material Question
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Ron - 16 Mar 2004 01:29 GMT I always thought the purpose for damping material was to keep sound waves from bouncing off of the back/sides of the enclosure and back into the driver causing distortion.
What is the deal with using damping material to fool the enclosure into thinking it is bigger? If you add something to a box, doesn't it make it smaller? LOL
Fred - 16 Mar 2004 10:48 GMT > I always thought the purpose for damping material was to keep sound > waves from bouncing off of the back/sides of the enclosure and back into > the driver causing distortion. Its purpose is to reduce standing waves within the enclosure that would affect the frequency response. This applies to mid-to-high range of the audio spectrum. I don't think distortion is an issue.
> What is the deal with using damping material to fool the enclosure into > thinking it is bigger? If you add something to a box, doesn't it make it > smaller? LOL At lower frequencies where standing waves and reflections aren't an issue because the enclosure dimensions prevent them anyway, the addition of damping material will increase the enclosures effective size
thelizman - 16 Mar 2004 18:06 GMT > Its purpose is to reduce standing waves within the enclosure that would > affect the frequency response. This applies to mid-to-high range of the > audio spectrum. I don't think distortion is an issue.
> At lower frequencies where standing waves and reflections aren't an issue > because the enclosure dimensions prevent them anyway, the addition of > damping material will increase the enclosures effective size How many 15 foot subwoofer boxes have you ever seen? It's not about "standing waves", unless you're building a full range box.
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Fred - 16 Mar 2004 21:02 GMT > > Its purpose is to reduce standing waves within the enclosure that would > > affect the frequency response. This applies to mid-to-high range of the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > How many 15 foot subwoofer boxes have you ever seen? It's not about > "standing waves", unless you're building a full range box. You wanna read my post again? See the part about mid-to-high range of the audio spectrum?
thelizman - 17 Mar 2004 02:02 GMT > You wanna read my post again? See the part about mid-to-high range of the > audio spectrum? You wanna explain to me where mid to high frequencies occur in a subwoofer system, ya moron?
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Fred - 17 Mar 2004 07:38 GMT > > You wanna read my post again? See the part about mid-to-high range of the > > audio spectrum? > > You wanna explain to me where mid to high frequencies occur in a > subwoofer system, ya moron? When you show me where the original post mentioned a subwoofer you totally stupid fuckwit. He said "enclosure" not subwoofer!
Les - 17 Mar 2004 07:42 GMT "Fred" <noemail@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message > > > You wanna read my post again? See the part about mid-to-high range of
> the > > > audio spectrum? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > When you show me where the original post mentioned a subwoofer you totally > stupid fuckwit. He said "enclosure" not subwoofer! He does not have to say subwoofer, it is implied. It is called reading comprehension skills. Do they not teach that anymore? Therefore high frequencies really have nothing to do with the question posed.
Les
Fred - 17 Mar 2004 08:53 GMT > "Fred" <noemail@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message > > > You wanna read my > post again? See the part about mid-to-high range of [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Les No implication in the original post at all. You have interpreted your way and I have interpreted it as it was written. It has nothing to do with comprehension at all. If sh.t was electricity you'd be a walking, talking power station.
thelizman - 17 Mar 2004 15:29 GMT > No implication in the original post at all. You have interpreted your way > and I have interpreted it as it was written. It has nothing to do with > comprehension at all. If sh.t was electricity you'd be a walking, talking > power station. You're an idiot. Just admit it. Anyone who starts talking about standing waves in a box for a car is an idiot for multiple reasons.
Be quiet now.
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Tha Ghee - 20 Mar 2004 20:34 GMT > > No implication in the original post at all. You have interpreted your way > > and I have interpreted it as it was written. It has nothing to do with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Be quiet now. are you saying there are no standing waves in sub encs.??
thelizman - 20 Mar 2004 22:39 GMT > are you saying there are no standing waves in sub encs.?? Not at subwoofer frequencies. Prove me wrong.
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Tha Ghee - 28 Mar 2004 00:20 GMT > > are you saying there are no standing waves in sub encs.?? > > Not at subwoofer frequencies. Prove me wrong. yes there are, if there were not then what's the purpose of fiberfill, to reduce standing waves, and make the enc. seem bigger.
show me data where there are no standing waves in enc. since you're all knowing.
Les - 18 Mar 2004 04:54 GMT "Fred" <noemail@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message > > >
> No implication in the original post at all. You have interpreted your way > and I have interpreted it as it was written. It has nothing to do with > comprehension at all. If sh.t was electricity you'd be a walking, talking > power station. So what do you think the OP is talking about? A box for his tweeters? He mentioned a box and an enclosure, ie things you would normally place a subwoofer in. He also mentions 2 phenomenoms that are associated with subwoofers. So there are 4 things associated with a subwoofer system. Now I can stretch one, maybe two of those things to include midbass drivers. But how can you stretch it that much to think he is talking mid/high drivers? You need to take a reading for comprehension class.
BTW: OP, you should just google for this topic as it has been discussed many times here.
Les
Tha Ghee - 20 Mar 2004 20:33 GMT > > You wanna read my post again? See the part about mid-to-high range of the > > audio spectrum? > > You wanna explain to me where mid to high frequencies occur in a > subwoofer system, ya moron? if you have a metal cone sub there can be hi-freq content. look at the lab graphs, so he's not a moron you may be.
Les - 21 Mar 2004 06:29 GMT "Tha Ghee" <grewatson@yahoo.com> wrote in message > if you have a metal cone sub there can be hi-freq content. look at the lab
> graphs, so he's not a moron you may be. No Ghee, you and Fred are morons. Do you not run a crossover on a sub? Are you that dumb? Let's say you run your crossover unusually high at 140Hz, do you consider that high frequency? We are talking application here, not what a sub could potentially do in a lab if the conditions are right.
Les
MZ - 24 Mar 2004 23:06 GMT > No Ghee, you and Fred are morons. Do you not run a crossover on a sub? Are > you that dumb? Let's say you run your crossover unusually high at 140Hz, do > you consider that high frequency? We are talking application here, not what > a sub could potentially do in a lab if the conditions are right. Maybe he's talking about harmonics?
But I think if you're getting harmonics of that amplitude and that frequency, standing waves are the least of your problems...
Nousaine - 25 Mar 2004 03:10 GMT "MZ" zarellam@twcnyremove.rr.comspam wrote:
>> No Ghee, you and Fred are morons. Do you not run a crossover on a sub? Are >> you that dumb? Let's say you run your crossover unusually high at 140Hz, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >But I think if you're getting harmonics of that amplitude and that >frequency, standing waves are the least of your problems... In a 2600 ft3 room the standing wave region runs from 25-300 Hz. In a smaller car such as a Corvette, CRX, Acura Integra this is shifted up an octave to roughly 60-600 Hz. In a larger car it drops somewhat....but it's very common to have standing wave effects at 140 Hz in a vehicle.
Scott Gardner - 25 Mar 2004 04:46 GMT >"MZ" zarellam@twcnyremove.rr.comspam >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >roughly 60-600 Hz. In a larger car it drops somewhat....but it's very common to >have standing wave effects at 140 Hz in a vehicle. I think the standing waves discussion originally centered on whether you could find them *inside* an enclosure, and whether damping material would affect them. Whether or not they're present inside the vehicle, I think it's safe to say that the volume inside a subwoofer enclosure is so small as to preclude the formation of standing waves inside the box.
Scott Gardner
Nousaine - 25 Mar 2004 05:01 GMT >>"MZ" zarellam@twcnyremove.rr.comspam >>wrote: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >Scott Gardner Agreed; standing waves at bass frequencies inside an enclosure are irrelevant to al but the largest enclosures....say 25 ft3.
Tha Ghee - 28 Mar 2004 00:27 GMT > "MZ" zarellam@twcnyremove.rr.comspam > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > roughly 60-600 Hz. In a larger car it drops somewhat....but it's very common to > have standing wave effects at 140 Hz in a vehicle. if you look at the graphs of some subs they can play up to 2k or so.
MZ - 28 Mar 2004 01:13 GMT > > In a 2600 ft3 room the standing wave region runs from 25-300 Hz. In a > smaller [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > if you look at the graphs of some subs they can play up to 2k or so. The primary breakup mode of most subs are much much lower than that. There may be a few that could play up high (maybe some of those aluminum jobs?), but the impedance is often much higher up there. Got any examples of subs that don't break up until 2kHz and still have a reasonably low impedance there?
Tha Ghee - 03 Apr 2004 19:11 GMT > > > In a 2600 ft3 room the standing wave region runs from 25-300 Hz. In a > > smaller [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > that don't break up until 2kHz and still have a reasonably low impedance > there? The Aura Force 10s and Dynaudio
MZ - 03 Apr 2004 19:40 GMT Which dynaudio?
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> > > > In a 2600 ft3 room the standing wave region runs from 25-300 Hz. In a > > > smaller [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > > The Aura Force 10s and Dynaudio Tha Ghee - 11 Apr 2004 00:26 GMT > Which dynaudio? the 8" & 10" went up the mid 1khz, and if memory servers me correctly the review said you could use them in a 2 way system in a pinch.
Les - 25 Mar 2004 04:28 GMT "MZ" <zarellam@twcnyremove.rr.comspam> wrote in
> Maybe he's talking about harmonics? > > But I think if you're getting harmonics of that amplitude and that > frequency, standing waves are the least of your problems... I considered harmonics but came to basically the same conclusion that if you have harmonics that are that bad then something else is wrong. I also considered the source, Ghee, and thought that he probably doesn't even know what a harmonic is.
Les
Tha Ghee - 28 Mar 2004 00:21 GMT > "Tha Ghee" <grewatson@yahoo.com> wrote in message > if you have a metal cone > sub there can be hi-freq content. look at the lab [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Les were are not morons, there are subs that you can run without x-overs were talking concepts that's why I mentioned this.
Les - 28 Mar 2004 05:51 GMT "Tha Ghee" <grewatson@yahoo.com> wrote in message > >
> were are not morons, there are subs that you can run without x-overs were > talking concepts that's why I mentioned this. Why would you want to run the sub without a crossover? We are not talking conepts here, we are talking what is actually going to happen in the vehicle. The OP asked a "what will this actually do?" type question and you respond, in your broken english, with some theory that could potentially happen, maybe, if you are a MORON and don't know how to setup a subwoofer system.
Les
Tha Ghee - 03 Apr 2004 19:24 GMT > "Tha Ghee" <grewatson@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > > were are not morons, there are subs that you can run without x-overs were [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Les if you read most CA mags they say you can run certain subs without a x-over just face it away from the front. ok Les and you're so eloquent can I be like you when I'm near 80??
MZ - 03 Apr 2004 19:42 GMT > if you read most CA mags they say you can run certain subs without a x-over > just face it away from the front. ok Les and you're so eloquent can I be > like you when I'm near 80?? You can. But that doesn't mean they're responsive that high. Also, getting back to the original topic, if you're trying to attenuate high frequencies by facing it away from the front, then why would you be concerned with standing waves?
Tha Ghee - 11 Apr 2004 00:30 GMT > > if you read most CA mags they say you can run certain subs without a > x-over [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > by facing it away from the front, then why would you be concerned with > standing waves? Those are two different topic, standing waves and high freq. are not what I discussing, just that some subs can play high freq. that's all.
MZ - 11 Apr 2004 00:39 GMT You brought up high frequencies to demonstrate that standing waves can be an issue. So the two are inseparable. My question stands: if you're trying to attenuate high frequencies by turning the driver around, why would you be concerned with standing waves?
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> > > if you read most CA mags they say you can run certain subs without a > > x-over [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Those are two different topic, standing waves and high freq. are not what I > discussing, just that some subs can play high freq. that's all. Tha Ghee - 17 Apr 2004 07:55 GMT > You brought up high frequencies to demonstrate that standing waves can be an > issue. So the two are inseparable. My question stands: if you're trying to > attenuate high frequencies by turning the driver around, why would you be > concerned with standing waves? standing waves have nothing to do with high freq. if I said that it was a mistake.
thelizman - 04 Apr 2004 05:40 GMT > if you read most CA mags they say you can run certain subs without a x-over > just face it away from the front. ok Les and you're so eloquent can I be > like you when I'm near 80?? Without a crossover, it is not longer a subwoofer. Face it away from the front? As if high frequency sounds didn't reflect...
...just when I thought you couldn't get any more stupid, you surprise me.
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Tha Ghee - 11 Apr 2004 00:32 GMT > > if you read most CA mags they say you can run certain subs without a x-over > > just face it away from the front. ok Les and you're so eloquent can I be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > ...just when I thought you couldn't get any more stupid, you surprise me. so just because it has no outside filtering it changes what it is, explain this to me?? they do but they will get absorbed more easily then low freq. content. not as much as you do, I didn't know someone could spout this much crap and no one call them on it.
thelizman - 16 Mar 2004 18:04 GMT > I always thought the purpose for damping material was to keep sound > waves from bouncing off of the back/sides of the enclosure and back into [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > thinking it is bigger? If you add something to a box, doesn't it make it > smaller? LOL The idea is that the thermal insulation aspect of "stuffing" (usually polyfill, though fiberglass insulation has been used in some home speakers I've seen - not hot on the idea of glass fibers being propelled into my atmosphere) absorbs some of the acoustic output of the speaker in the same way the air in a larger enclosure would.
In theory, it ads 15-25%. In actual practice...well...you can make up your own mind, but I've never measured any actual noticable change that couldn't also be accounted for by other factors.
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Don Hills - 17 Mar 2004 01:59 GMT >In theory, it ads 15-25%. In actual practice...well...you can make up >your own mind, but I've never measured any actual noticable change that >couldn't also be accounted for by other factors. Actually, if you use the right density of stuffing, you do get about 15 to 25% effective size increase. The stuffing slows down the propagation of the sound waves within the enclosure. The effect is more commonly used to advantage in "transmission line" style home enclosures, allowing the use of a shorter line for a given bass extension. I've got a technical paper somewhere here with suggested densities for various types of stuffing. I expect there'll be useful information on web sites that discuss home construction of hi-fi speakers, too.
 Signature Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand
Nousaine - 17 Mar 2004 05:16 GMT >>In theory, it ads 15-25%. In actual practice...well...you can make up >>your own mind, but I've never measured any actual noticable change that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >advantage in "transmission line" style home enclosures, allowing the use of >a shorter line for a given bass extension. Actually slowing down sound has nothing to do with it this effect (I've conducted experiments that show up to 36% apparent enclosure size increase ---- 1.5 lbs per cubic foot @ 1.5 ft3 enclosure.) It has to do with keeping thermal conditions in the enclosure closer to isothermal as opposed to adiabatic.
But, so far, all the effects are relative to small signal response .... Theile/Small parameters. It's time to investigate large signal conditions.
I've got a technical paper
>somewhere here with suggested densities for various types of stuffing. I >expect there'll be useful information on web sites that discuss home >construction of hi-fi speakers, too. 1 to 1.5 pounds per cubic foot appears to be optimal and stuffing tupe (fiberglas, rockwool, wool or polyester) idicates that polyester is as good as the others and has no disadvantages.
Don Hills - 17 Mar 2004 15:14 GMT >Actually slowing down sound has nothing to do with it this effect (I've >conducted experiments that show up to 36% apparent enclosure size increase ---- >1.5 lbs per cubic foot @ 1.5 ft3 enclosure.) It has to do with keeping thermal >conditions in the enclosure closer to isothermal as opposed to adiabatic. Er... No. I refer you to the seminal works on the topic:
[1] A. R. Bailey: "Non Resonant Loudspeaker Enclosure", Wireless World, October 1965, and "The Transmission Line Enclosure", Wireless World, May 1972.
[3] L. J .S. Bradbury: "The Use of Fibrous Materials in Loudspeaker Enclosures", JAES Vol. 24 No. 3, April 1976.
Both found (Bailey by experiment, Bradbury by theoretical work) that about 0.5 lb per cubic foot was optimum, and reduced the speed of sound to around half of its free air value. This amount of reduction cannot be solely due to isothermal versus adiabatic effects, as the theoretical maximum reduction in apparent velocity is only on the order of 15%. Someone did some research into the reasons for the discrepancy, and it is this paper which I'm currently looking for in what I jokingly call a filing system. Dick Pierce did some work on this, maybe he knows - are you listening, Dick?
For the apparent enclosure size increase, your experimental figures are quite close to the theoretical maximum (about 40%).
>1 to 1.5 pounds per cubic foot appears to be optimal and stuffing tupe >(fiberglas, rockwool, wool or polyester) idicates that polyester is as good as >the others and has no disadvantages. As the man with a wooden leg said, "That's a matter of a pinion." <grin>
 Signature Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand
thelizman - 17 Mar 2004 17:15 GMT > As the man with a wooden leg said, "That's a matter of a pinion." <grin> Isn't that also the same man who said "har, whars th' cabin boyee, aye need t'sheath me sword"?
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Nousaine - 17 Mar 2004 20:01 GMT >>Actually slowing down sound has nothing to do with it this effect (I've >>conducted experiments that show up to 36% apparent enclosure size increase [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > October 1965, and "The Transmission Line Enclosure", Wireless World, May >1972. Bailey's work was with open enclosures.
>[3] L. J .S. Bradbury: "The Use of Fibrous Materials in Loudspeaker > Enclosures", JAES Vol. 24 No. 3, April 1976. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >due to isothermal versus adiabatic effects, as the theoretical maximum >reduction in apparent velocity is only on the order of 15%. I'll bow to Bradbury. Haven't read that for several years now.
Someone did some
>research into the reasons for the discrepancy, and it is this paper which >I'm currently looking for in what I jokingly call a filing system. Dick >Pierce did some work on this, maybe he knows - are you listening, Dick? > >For the apparent enclosure size increase, your experimental figures are >quite close to the theoretical maximum (about 40%). Indeed they were; which probably meant that the highest stuffing density may have somehow added mass to the system. Which is why I use 25% as a rule of thumb.
>>1 to 1.5 pounds per cubic foot appears to be optimal and stuffing tupe >>(fiberglas, rockwool, wool or polyester) idicates that polyester is as good >as >>the others and has no disadvantages. > >As the man with a wooden leg said, "That's a matter of a pinion." <grin> I'll amend that to 1 lb/ft3.
Don Hills - 18 Mar 2004 10:58 GMT >Bailey's work was with open enclosures. Indeed, and if you refer to my earlier post you may deduce that I was referring to transmission line enclosures. I'll concede that the original thread topic was sealed boxes.
>Indeed they were; which probably meant that the highest stuffing density may >have >somehow added mass to the system. Which is why I use 25% as a rule of thumb. I seem to recall that one theory for the greater than expected reduction of velocity in a transmission line was due to physical coupling (movement) of the fibres, but I may be wrong - that's why I want to find the paper.
 Signature Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand
Eddie Runner - 17 Mar 2004 20:12 GMT give him hell Don! Tom wrote a paper for a car audiuo magazine that seemed to me to be just a sensationalized (exagerated!) plagerizm of the original fellows that you quote below...
I tried to point this out to him several times but he wont put up any of his test data and only wants to belittle my expertise on the matter...
I have been trying to drag him into a good conversation on this topic for quite some time so I could do some testing and post a web page on just how wrong he is... But he wont discuss it at all he just wants to say he is right and everyone else is wrong.
Tom gets these old tech papers and he appearantly thinks no one else on here is gonna have the same papers so he embelishes them for his own purposes and tells his falsehoods....
He tried it on me quoting Beraneks book... I think I suprised the crap outa him when I actually had the book and I posted some drawings and text from the same book which proved him totally wrong on some standing wave issues...
Toms not a bad guy, he is just a little overzealous in his embelishing of facts so he can publish his own papers in largely non technical magazines for profit...
> >Actually slowing down sound has nothing to do with it this effect (I've > >conducted experiments that show up to 36% apparent enclosure size increase ---- [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > -- > Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand Don Hills - 18 Mar 2004 11:07 GMT >give him hell Don! Why? I'm aware of his history, and he does appear to be what many claim him to be, but he's made his reputation and now he has to live with it. As you well know, I generally confine myself to gently pointing out the misconceptions some people expound from time to time. Have you figured out how a bridged amp works yet? <big grin> And notice how the "should I fasten down my sub box" thread went quiet? <bigger grin> I could see the light bulbs lighting up from way over here...
>Toms not a bad guy, he is just a little overzealous in his embelishing >of facts so he can publish his own papers in largely non technical >magazines for profit... Thanks for the concise potted history. Google Groups filled in the gaps. I saw some of the arguments that Tom has been in while I was looking for clues as to the title of the paper I can't find. (I did find an on-topic post by Dick Pierce from 1985...)
 Signature Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand "I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi- national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet software and decent hardware support."
Eddie Runner - 18 Mar 2004 19:06 GMT > Have you figured out > how a bridged amp works yet? <big grin> Please notice that thanks to my persistance it is now VERY RARE to find someone saying that bridging halves the resistance....
> And notice how the "should I fasten > down my sub box" thread went quiet? <bigger grin> I dont remember that thread was I in that one..??
Eddie
Don Hills - 19 Mar 2004 00:56 GMT >Please notice that thanks to my persistance it is now >VERY RARE to find someone saying that bridging >halves the resistance.... Ah, but that doesn't mean you're right. <just kidding>
>I dont remember that thread was I in that one..?? Nope. Sancho and Lizard were. Look in Google for "How to secure a sub enclosure", started 2 weeks ago.
 Signature Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand
Eddie Runner - 19 Mar 2004 01:36 GMT > >Please notice that thanks to my persistance it is now > >VERY RARE to find someone saying that bridging > >halves the resistance.... > > Ah, but that doesn't mean you're right. <just kidding> a few years back everyone said bridging halves speakers impedance.. it was on tech websites, manufacturers web sites, (some of my best argueing was with some of the JL techs) and even in amp install manuals.... Thanks to my persistance none of that is there anymore, folks have learned the truth... Damn I am good.... ;-)
> >I dont remember that thread was I in that one..?? > > Nope. Sancho and Lizard were. Look in Google for "How to secure a sub > enclosure", started 2 weeks ago. Ahhh... I try not to argue with morons...
Eddie
gregs - 20 Mar 2004 04:27 GMT >> >Please notice that thanks to my persistance it is now >> >VERY RARE to find someone saying that bridging [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >of that is there anymore, folks have learned the truth... Damn >I am good.... ;-) Aw but you rarely hear what bridging really does.It doubles the voltage!
greg
Scott Gardner - 20 Mar 2004 05:18 GMT >>> >Please notice that thanks to my persistance it is now >>> >VERY RARE to find someone saying that bridging [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >>of that is there anymore, folks have learned the truth... Damn >>I am good.... ;-)
>Aw but you rarely hear what bridging really does.It >doubles the voltage! > >greg True, and I've always wondered why it's not explained that way more often in the first place. I used to see that "halving the impedance" crap all the time too, when the correct explanation is so much simpler - you double the voltage swing, which quadruples the output power. (Obviously, the *total* power only doubles, since you're going from two channels to only one when you bridge the amp.)
Liz - I'm saddened to hear that the JL techs were arguing with you about how amp bridging works. I can understand it if the marketing types were confused, and maybe even the manual writers, but the techs and engineers should know better. How hard is it to understand that power equals voltage squared divided by impedance?
Scott Gardner
dontbelievethis@hotmail.com - 20 Mar 2004 16:30 GMT >True, and I've always wondered why it's not explained that way more >often in the first place. I used to see that "halving the impedance" [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Scott Gardner Power does not equal voltage squared divided by impedance..... sorry, but power equalss voltage squared divided by resistance...
impedance and resistances are different...
If you wanna be talking about impedences...you gotta take into account PF angles... which means you arent really dealing with Power anymore, your dealing V-A (volt-amps). Just what i gathered at Electrical eng. school.
Never did understand why speakers are rated in WATTS and impedences.
Can anyone explain this to me? Or is the 5 text books i spent ,which seems to be, unlimited hours reading...wrong?
Eddie Runner - 20 Mar 2004 16:52 GMT MARKETING, MARKETING!!!!
> Never did understand why speakers are rated in WATTS and impedences. > > Can anyone explain this to me? Or is the 5 text books i spent ,which > seems to be, unlimited hours reading...wrong? Scott Gardner - 20 Mar 2004 17:48 GMT >>True, and I've always wondered why it's not explained that way more >>often in the first place. I used to see that "halving the impedance" [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >Can anyone explain this to me? Or is the 5 text books i spent ,which >seems to be, unlimited hours reading...wrong? "Power" is a valid term for describing both AC and DC circuits - the units just differ. "Power" is simply the rate of energy flow in a circuit (first derivative of energy with respect to time, or p=dw/dt). This rate of energy flow is always called "power", whether we're talking about DC or AC circuits. The load in question can be purely resistive, purely reactive, or a combination of the two - "power" is still a valid term to describe the rate of energy flow through the load.
In AC power equations, you have "true power", "reactive power", and "apparent power" (this is the infamous "power triangle"). "Apparent power" is the hypotenuse of the triangle, and "true power" and "reactive power" are the two legs.
True power comes from the resistive portion of the load, and reactive power comes from the reactive portion of the load. True power is measured in Watts, and reactive power is measured in VAR (volt-amps reactive). Apparent power is the combination of the two, and as you've mentioned, is properly measured in VA (volt-amps).
Impedance is a combination of resistance and reactance. The same formula applies throughout, though.
True power is voltage squared divided by resistance. Reactive power is voltage squared divided by reactance. Apparent (or total) power is voltage squared divided by impedance.
So, voltage squared divided by impedance is a valid equation for Apparent (or total) power in an AC circuit. You are correct that in AC circuits, there will be phase and time components in the voltage and reactance to deal with as well.
As to your question about why speakers are rated using "Watts" and "impedence", they're half-correct. Speaker loads have both a resistive component and a reactive component. This combination of resistance and reactance is "impedance", so they're correct to use "impedance" to describe a speaker.
However, since speakers loads are both resistive and reactive, the power delivered to them is both true power and reactive power. Thus, the total power delivered to the speaker is the combination of the two, or "apparent power". Apparent power should be measured in V-A, not Watts. Technically, stereo amplifiers should be rated in V-A as well. I figure more consumers understand "Watts" as a unit of power than volt-amps, and as long as the amp manufacturers and speaker manufacturers are on the same page, there's no real harm done in using "Watts" instead of the correct "volt-amps"
Scott Gardner
Kevin Murray - 20 Mar 2004 21:45 GMT Speakers are rated in watts in order to tell you how much electrical power they can dissipate. Over 95% of the power delivered to a loudspeaker is dissipated as heat by it's resistive element and can quickly barbecue the voice coil. Reactive power (V-A) is what does all the work in a speaker. Since the reactive power is not converted to heat, the maximum V-A delivered to a speaker will vary depending on several things such as enclosure type, signal frequency, and driver x-max among others. In this case the driver will reach it's excursion limit and mechanically destroy itself.
Since your average loudspeaker is only about 5% efficient at best, it's satisfactory to only provide it's maximum power rating in watts. If a speaker bottoms out it will sound like crap and the listener will turn down the volume. This inherent "built-in protection" protects the speaker from mechanical damage resulting from excessive V-A.
Kevin Murray
> >True, and I've always wondered why it's not explained that way more > >often in the first place. I used to see that "halving the impedance" [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Can anyone explain this to me? Or is the 5 text books i spent ,which > seems to be, unlimited hours reading...wrong? thelizman - 20 Mar 2004 23:59 GMT > If a speaker > bottoms out it will sound like crap and the listener will turn down the volume. > This inherent "built-in protection" protects the speaker from mechanical damage > resulting from excessive V-A. You would think, anyway. What most often happens is the listener ignores it, thinks its part of the source, or because the subs are in the trunk they don't even notice. Thats why as an installer I was such a fan of Alpine's (or was it JBL's?)old soft-clip design. The speaker never bottomed out per-se, it just got harder to push.
It's also worth pointing out that IME 75% of the time a speaker blows, its not the voice coil that went bad, but the mechanical portion of the speaker which couldn't handle the abuse. Spiders and surrounds come unglued, get worn out, or the cone itself becomes warped. I've even seen some speakers where the leads get ripped out of the speaker terminal in subs that have high Xmax, but don't cut the leads long enough. Power handling in a voice coil is rarely a problem. Thats why I tell people not to worry about an amp thats too big, you can always turn it down when things start to go "thwack!".
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Nousaine - 23 Mar 2004 04:08 GMT thelizman hammerattack@teamrocs.com wrote:
Kevin Murray wrote:
>> If a speaker >> bottoms out it will sound like crap and the listener will turn down the >volume. >> This inherent "built-in protection" protects the speaker from mechanical >damage >> resulting from excessive V-A. If the speaker "bottoms" meaning striking some part of the basket it is often already damaged.
>You would think, anyway. What most often happens is the listener ignores >it, thinks its part of the source, or because the subs are in the trunk >they don't even notice. That's common; an overload condition isn't "heard" until the driver quits.
Thats why as an installer I was such a fan of
>Alpine's (or was it JBL's?)old soft-clip design. The speaker never >bottomed out per-se, it just got harder to push. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >not to worry about an amp thats too big, you can always turn it down >when things start to go "thwack!". FWIW; in speaker testing the most common failure mode is melting voice coil glue. I drive every woofer to its maximum SPL capability using a ramped sine wave ( a demanding but non-purposfully threatening) that has characteristics similar to musical programs.
Using a Crown Macro-Tech 5000VZ I've blown up dozens of woofers but have only damaged suspensions on a few occasions. It's true that this represents a lab condition and not repeated abuse over a long time. But, thinking about it, nearly all woofers have more Xsus (linear suspension stroke) than Xmag (linear motor travel) so it's hard to imagine a situation where a limited stroke motor woukd tear out a suspension with more travel.
Not saying that it doesn't happen; I'd just like to know more about the circumstance.
Eddie Runner - 23 Mar 2004 18:18 GMT > Not saying that it doesn't happen; I'd just like to know more about the > circumstance. Tom, I think Liz, and maybe other installers may be mistaken here.. As installers working in the bay we do see alot of speakers with worn out surrounds and alot of problems other than burned VCs.
But I think your right this time Tom, the things other than burned VCs like surrounds coming apart are usually just bad (cheap or badly engineered) speakers... Or where an installer put a screw threw it or where the outside (where the cork would be but they dont use cork anymore) is coming off so badly that the speaker is coming apart from the basket.
The ones where the customer just play the damn things too loud are typicly burned coils, but we probably see (in the bays) way more of other types of abuse on the drivers as well....
I see what Liz is saying, and you work in a lab more than a bay so you may not see what real installers see... But what we see isnt really what Liz thinks it is (IMO).....
Eddie Runner
Nousaine - 23 Mar 2004 20:45 GMT Eddie Runner eddie@installer.com
...snip....>The ones where the customer just play the damn things too loud
>are typicly burned coils, but we probably see (in the bays) way >more of other types of abuse on the drivers as well.... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Eddie Runner Of course we're also ignoring environmental damage (temperature cycling, dirt, ultraviolet light, moisture) as well.
Eddie Runner - 24 Mar 2004 00:54 GMT I was covering that in design, IMO car speakers should be designed to withstand the elements common in a car.
Back when Boston Acoustics came out with car speakers the first generation used a kind of a clear plastic cone, after a year or more the cones would try out and youcould put your finger through them like a stale cracker.....
When they fixed that the next generation ALL of the foam surrounds rotted away after time....
Eventually they learned ..!! ha ha
Boston isnt the only one that LEARNED the hard way there were many, and some that havent yet... ;-)
Eddie
> Eddie Runner eddie@installer.com > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Of course we're also ignoring environmental damage (temperature cycling, dirt, > ultraviolet light, moisture) as well. thelizman - 23 Mar 2004 22:00 GMT > thelizman hammerattack@teamrocs.com > > FWIW; in speaker testing the most common failure mode is melting voice coil > glue. I drive every woofer to its maximum SPL capability using a ramped sine > wave ( a demanding but non-purposfully threatening) that has characteristics > similar to musical programs. <snip>
> Not saying that it doesn't happen; I'd just like to know more about the > circumstance. Yeah, in your LAB, where you don't deal with seasonal swings in temperature and humidity. Woofers should be designed for real world conditions, not to satisfy lab tests.
 Signature thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either"
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Kevin Murray - 24 Mar 2004 00:27 GMT <snip>
> If the speaker "bottoms" meaning striking some part of the basket it is often > already damaged. <snip>
What do you mean by "striking some part of the basket?" I was referring to the motor assembly. I'm sure it's possible but I've yet to see a woofer damaged from a few whacks against the pole piece. I would think that if the diaphragm itself were to strike the basket, the damage would be assured and catastrophic.
Nousaine - 24 Mar 2004 05:15 GMT ><snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >itself >were to strike the basket, the damage would be assured and catastrophic. I'm thinking you mean whacks against the back plate. But yes I've encountered 2 models recently where the damage sounded simply like a rubbing voice coil and/or tinsel lead clicks but dissecting the driver revealed windings knocked off the rear of the former and a deformed former end.
Tinsel leads hitting the cone are a clicking phenomenon. Cone hitting the basket is rare but seldom catastrophic; most cones will deform without permanent damage. In the catastrophic case we usually get a broken neck joint at the coil former/cone.
The other possibilty is the spider hitting the basket; yes, its rare but there are some designs where this can happen.
MZ - 24 Mar 2004 23:00 GMT > Speakers are rated in watts in order to tell you how much electrical power they > can dissipate. Over 95% of the power delivered to a loudspeaker is dissipated as [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > This inherent "built-in protection" protects the speaker from mechanical damage > resulting from excessive V-A. 5%? You're being kind...
Kevin Murray - 25 Mar 2004 00:53 GMT Like I said, "at best." You never know when someone has come up with a yet unknown but more efficient design. I was covering my a.s really.
> > Speakers are rated in watts in order to tell you how much electrical power > they [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > 5%? You're being kind... Eddie Runner - 20 Mar 2004 16:52 GMT > Liz - I'm saddened to hear that the JL techs were arguing with you > about how amp bridging works. Liz..????????????
No Scott, it was me! Eddie Runner!
In the old days EVERYONE said inpedance halves when bridging an amplifier (thats how bridging works)... Many amp manuals said so.. Many web sites said so. Most all installers said so... And RAC said so every day!
Anyone that was around back then will remember my relentless debates and arguements over why it was not so... It is doubling the voltage, not halving the impedance!
If youve been around to see me in some big arguements here then let me tell you the recent arguements are nothing compared to the size and length of the arguements over bridging that we used to have, those were the whoppers!! Since EVERYONE was against me, I sometimes argued against 5 or 6 guys at the same time, it was overwhelming but I stuck it out and eventually won just about everyone over to the truth....
Alot of folks back then called me the bridging guy.
After a while when someone would come on and say bridging halves the impedence, someone would say DONT LET EDDIE SEE YOU SAY THAT!! ha ha ha
Nowdays I almost never hear that anymore... For a while I know folks were afraid I would jump on them if they said it... ;-) Now, it may just be because amps arent bridged that much anymore, the class D amps are so common......
Get it right in the history books, it was Eddie Runner, not Liz!
Eddie
MZ - 24 Mar 2004 23:04 GMT > Since EVERYONE was against me, I > sometimes argued against 5 or 6 guys at the same time, it was > overwhelming but I stuck it out and eventually won just about everyone > over to the truth.... Yeah, but that's like heaven to you.
Eddie Runner - 25 Mar 2004 00:10 GMT yes it was some of the most fun online I have ever had...
> > Since EVERYONE was against me, I > > sometimes argued against 5 or 6 guys at the same time, it was > > overwhelming but I stuck it out and eventually won just about everyone > > over to the truth.... > > Yeah, but that's like heaven to you. Kevin Murray - 25 Mar 2004 00:55 GMT What's the most fun you've had online...?
> yes it was some of the most fun online I have ever had... Eddie Runner - 25 Mar 2004 01:46 GMT im not gonna say
> What's the most fun you've had online...? > > > yes it was some of the most fun online I have ever had... MZ - 25 Mar 2004 01:52 GMT My guess is it involves the name "Paris Hilton"...
 Signature Mark remove "remove" and "spam" to reply
> im not gonna say > > > What's the most fun you've had online...? > > > > > yes it was some of the most fun online I have ever had... gregs - 18 Mar 2004 20:41 GMT >>>In theory, it ads 15-25%. In actual practice...well...you can make up >>>your own mind, but I've never measured any actual noticable change that [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >But, so far, all the effects are relative to small signal response .... >Theile/Small parameters. It's time to investigate large signal conditions. That would be an interesting investigation.
greg
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