Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
HomeAnnouncements
Discussion Groups
By Brand
BMWChevroletDodgeFordGMHondaLexusMercedes-BenzNissanPeugeotToyotaVolkswagenOther Brands
By Topic
4x4 CarsRVsDrivingMaintenance & RepairCar AudioCollectible Cars
Country Specific
Australian ForumsUK Forums
ArticlesAuto InsuranceBuyingCars & TechnologyMaintenanceMiscellaneousSafety
DMV Resources
Related Topics
MotorcyclesBoatsMore Topics ...

Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Car Audio / April 2004

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Damping Material Question

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Ron - 16 Mar 2004 01:29 GMT
I always thought the purpose for damping material was to keep sound
waves from bouncing off of the back/sides of the enclosure and back into
the driver causing distortion.

What is the deal with using damping material to fool the enclosure into
thinking it is bigger? If you add something to a box, doesn't it make it
smaller? LOL
Fred - 16 Mar 2004 10:48 GMT
> I always thought the purpose for damping material was to keep sound
> waves from bouncing off of the back/sides of the enclosure and back into
> the driver causing distortion.

Its purpose is to reduce standing waves within the enclosure that would
affect the frequency response. This applies to mid-to-high range of the
audio spectrum. I don't think distortion is an issue.

> What is the deal with using damping material to fool the enclosure into
> thinking it is bigger? If you add something to a box, doesn't it make it
> smaller? LOL

At lower frequencies where standing waves and reflections aren't an issue
because the enclosure dimensions prevent them anyway, the addition of
damping material will increase the enclosures effective size
thelizman - 16 Mar 2004 18:06 GMT
> Its purpose is to reduce standing waves within the enclosure that would
> affect the frequency response. This applies to mid-to-high range of the
> audio spectrum. I don't think distortion is an issue.

> At lower frequencies where standing waves and reflections aren't an issue
> because the enclosure dimensions prevent them anyway, the addition of
> damping material will increase the enclosures effective size

How many 15 foot subwoofer boxes have you ever seen? It's not about
"standing waves", unless you're building a full range box.

Signature

thelizman                               "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

Before you ask a question, check the FAQs for this newsgroup at
http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq. It contains over a decade and
a half of knowledge.

teamROCS Car Audio Forums             http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News               http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

Fred - 16 Mar 2004 21:02 GMT
> > Its purpose is to reduce standing waves within the enclosure that would
> > affect the frequency response. This applies to mid-to-high range of the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> How many 15 foot subwoofer boxes have you ever seen? It's not about
> "standing waves", unless you're building a full range box.

You wanna read my post again? See the part about mid-to-high range of the
audio spectrum?
thelizman - 17 Mar 2004 02:02 GMT
> You wanna read my post again? See the part about mid-to-high range of the
> audio spectrum?

You wanna explain to me where mid to high frequencies occur in a
subwoofer system, ya moron?

Signature

thelizman                               "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

Before you ask a question, check the FAQs for this newsgroup at
http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq. It contains over a decade and
a half of knowledge.

teamROCS Car Audio Forums             http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News               http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

Fred - 17 Mar 2004 07:38 GMT
> > You wanna read my post again? See the part about mid-to-high range of the
> > audio spectrum?
>
> You wanna explain to me where mid to high frequencies occur in a
> subwoofer system, ya moron?

When you show me where the original post mentioned a subwoofer you totally
stupid fuckwit. He said "enclosure" not subwoofer!
Les - 17 Mar 2004 07:42 GMT
"Fred" <noemail@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message > > > You wanna read my
post again? See the part about mid-to-high range of
> the
> > > audio spectrum?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> When you show me where the original post mentioned a subwoofer you totally
> stupid fuckwit. He said "enclosure" not subwoofer!

He does not have to say subwoofer, it is implied. It is called reading
comprehension skills. Do they not teach that anymore? Therefore high
frequencies really have nothing to do with the question posed.

Les
Fred - 17 Mar 2004 08:53 GMT
> "Fred" <noemail@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message > > > You wanna read my
> post again? See the part about mid-to-high range of
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Les

No implication in the original post at all. You have interpreted your way
and I have interpreted it as it was written. It has nothing to do with
comprehension at all. If sh.t was electricity you'd be a walking, talking
power station.
thelizman - 17 Mar 2004 15:29 GMT
> No implication in the original post at all. You have interpreted your way
> and I have interpreted it as it was written. It has nothing to do with
> comprehension at all. If sh.t was electricity you'd be a walking, talking
> power station.

You're an idiot. Just admit it. Anyone who starts talking about standing
waves in a box for a car is an idiot for multiple reasons.

Be quiet now.

Signature

thelizman                               "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

Before you ask a question, check the FAQs for this newsgroup at
http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq. It contains over a decade and
a half of knowledge.

teamROCS Car Audio Forums             http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News               http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

Tha Ghee - 20 Mar 2004 20:34 GMT
> > No implication in the original post at all. You have interpreted your way
> > and I have interpreted it as it was written. It has nothing to do with
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Be quiet now.

are you saying there are no standing waves in sub encs.??
thelizman - 20 Mar 2004 22:39 GMT
> are you saying there are no standing waves in sub encs.??

Not at subwoofer frequencies. Prove me wrong.

Signature

thelizman                               "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

Before you ask a question, check the FAQs for this newsgroup at
http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq. It contains over a decade and
a half of knowledge.

teamROCS Car Audio Forums             http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News               http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

Tha Ghee - 28 Mar 2004 00:20 GMT
> > are you saying there are no standing waves in sub encs.??
>
> Not at subwoofer frequencies. Prove me wrong.

yes there are, if there were not then what's the purpose of fiberfill, to
reduce standing waves, and make the enc. seem bigger.

show me data where there are no standing waves in enc. since you're all
knowing.
Les - 18 Mar 2004 04:54 GMT
"Fred" <noemail@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message > > >

> No implication in the original post at all. You have interpreted your way
> and I have interpreted it as it was written. It has nothing to do with
> comprehension at all. If sh.t was electricity you'd be a walking, talking
> power station.

So what do you think the OP is talking about? A box for his tweeters? He
mentioned a box and an enclosure, ie things you would normally place a
subwoofer in. He also mentions 2 phenomenoms that are associated with
subwoofers. So there are 4 things associated with a subwoofer system. Now I
can stretch one, maybe two of those things to include midbass drivers. But
how can you stretch it that much to think he is talking mid/high drivers?
You need to take a reading for comprehension class.

BTW: OP, you should just google for this topic as it has been discussed many
times here.

Les
Tha Ghee - 20 Mar 2004 20:33 GMT
> > You wanna read my post again? See the part about mid-to-high range of the
> > audio spectrum?
>
> You wanna explain to me where mid to high frequencies occur in a
> subwoofer system, ya moron?

if you have a metal cone sub there can be hi-freq content.  look at the lab
graphs, so he's not a moron you may be.
Les - 21 Mar 2004 06:29 GMT
"Tha Ghee" <grewatson@yahoo.com> wrote in message > if you have a metal cone
sub there can be hi-freq content.  look at the lab
> graphs, so he's not a moron you may be.

No Ghee, you and Fred are morons. Do you not run a crossover on a sub? Are
you that dumb? Let's say you run your crossover unusually high at 140Hz, do
you consider that high frequency? We are talking application here, not what
a sub could potentially do in a lab if the conditions are right.

Les
MZ - 24 Mar 2004 23:06 GMT
> No Ghee, you and Fred are morons. Do you not run a crossover on a sub? Are
> you that dumb? Let's say you run your crossover unusually high at 140Hz, do
> you consider that high frequency? We are talking application here, not what
> a sub could potentially do in a lab if the conditions are right.

Maybe he's talking about harmonics?

But I think if you're getting harmonics of that amplitude and that
frequency, standing waves are the least of your problems...
Nousaine - 25 Mar 2004 03:10 GMT
"MZ" zarellam@twcnyremove.rr.comspam
wrote:

>> No Ghee, you and Fred are morons. Do you not run a crossover on a sub? Are
>> you that dumb? Let's say you run your crossover unusually high at 140Hz,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>But I think if you're getting harmonics of that amplitude and that
>frequency, standing waves are the least of your problems...

In a 2600 ft3 room the standing wave region runs from 25-300 Hz. In a smaller
car such as a Corvette, CRX, Acura Integra this is shifted up an octave to
roughly 60-600 Hz. In a larger car it drops somewhat....but it's very common to
have standing wave effects at 140 Hz in a vehicle.
Scott Gardner - 25 Mar 2004 04:46 GMT
>"MZ" zarellam@twcnyremove.rr.comspam
>wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>roughly 60-600 Hz. In a larger car it drops somewhat....but it's very common to
>have standing wave effects at 140 Hz in a vehicle.

I think the standing waves discussion originally centered on whether
you could find them *inside* an enclosure, and whether damping
material would affect them.  Whether or not they're present inside the
vehicle, I think it's safe to say that the volume inside a subwoofer
enclosure is so small as to preclude the formation of standing waves
inside the box.

Scott Gardner
Nousaine - 25 Mar 2004 05:01 GMT
>>"MZ" zarellam@twcnyremove.rr.comspam
>>wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
>Scott Gardner

Agreed; standing waves at bass frequencies inside an enclosure are irrelevant
to al but the largest enclosures....say 25 ft3.
Tha Ghee - 28 Mar 2004 00:27 GMT
> "MZ" zarellam@twcnyremove.rr.comspam
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> roughly 60-600 Hz. In a larger car it drops somewhat....but it's very common to
> have standing wave effects at 140 Hz in a vehicle.

if you look at the graphs of some subs they can play up to 2k or so.
MZ - 28 Mar 2004 01:13 GMT
> > In a 2600 ft3 room the standing wave region runs from 25-300 Hz. In a
> smaller
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> if you look at the graphs of some subs they can play up to 2k or so.

The primary breakup mode of most subs are much much lower than that.  There
may be a few that could play up high (maybe some of those aluminum jobs?),
but the impedance is often much higher up there.  Got any examples of subs
that don't break up until 2kHz and still have a reasonably low impedance
there?
Tha Ghee - 03 Apr 2004 19:11 GMT
> > > In a 2600 ft3 room the standing wave region runs from 25-300 Hz. In a
> > smaller
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> that don't break up until 2kHz and still have a reasonably low impedance
> there?

The Aura Force 10s and Dynaudio
MZ - 03 Apr 2004 19:40 GMT
Which dynaudio?

Signature

Mark
remove "remove" and "spam" to reply

> > > > In a 2600 ft3 room the standing wave region runs from 25-300 Hz. In a
> > > smaller
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> >
> The Aura Force 10s and Dynaudio
Tha Ghee - 11 Apr 2004 00:26 GMT
> Which dynaudio?

the 8" & 10" went up the mid 1khz, and if memory servers me correctly the
review said you could use them in a 2 way system in a pinch.
Les - 25 Mar 2004 04:28 GMT
"MZ" <zarellam@twcnyremove.rr.comspam> wrote in

> Maybe he's talking about harmonics?
>
> But I think if you're getting harmonics of that amplitude and that
> frequency, standing waves are the least of your problems...

I considered harmonics but came to basically the same conclusion that if you
have harmonics that are that bad then something else is wrong. I also
considered the source, Ghee, and thought that he probably doesn't even know
what a harmonic is.

Les
Tha Ghee - 28 Mar 2004 00:21 GMT
> "Tha Ghee" <grewatson@yahoo.com> wrote in message > if you have a metal cone
> sub there can be hi-freq content.  look at the lab
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Les

were are not morons, there are subs that you can run without x-overs were
talking concepts that's why I mentioned this.
Les - 28 Mar 2004 05:51 GMT
"Tha Ghee" <grewatson@yahoo.com> wrote in message > >
> were are not morons, there are subs that you can run without x-overs were
> talking concepts that's why I mentioned this.

Why would you want to run the sub without a crossover?
We are not talking conepts here, we are talking what is actually going to
happen in the vehicle. The OP asked a "what will this actually do?" type
question and you respond, in your broken english, with some theory that
could potentially happen, maybe,  if you are a MORON and don't know how to
setup a subwoofer system.

Les
Tha Ghee - 03 Apr 2004 19:24 GMT
> "Tha Ghee" <grewatson@yahoo.com> wrote in message > >
> > were are not morons, there are subs that you can run without x-overs were
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Les

if you read most CA mags they say you can run certain subs without a x-over
just face it away from the front.  ok Les and you're so eloquent can I be
like you when I'm near 80??
MZ - 03 Apr 2004 19:42 GMT
> if you read most CA mags they say you can run certain subs without a x-over
> just face it away from the front.  ok Les and you're so eloquent can I be
> like you when I'm near 80??

You can.  But that doesn't mean they're responsive that high.  Also, getting
back to the original topic, if you're trying to attenuate high frequencies
by facing it away from the front, then why would you be concerned with
standing waves?
Tha Ghee - 11 Apr 2004 00:30 GMT
> > if you read most CA mags they say you can run certain subs without a
> x-over
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> by facing it away from the front, then why would you be concerned with
> standing waves?

Those are two different topic, standing waves and high freq. are not what I
discussing, just that some subs can play high freq. that's all.
MZ - 11 Apr 2004 00:39 GMT
You brought up high frequencies to demonstrate that standing waves can be an
issue.  So the two are inseparable.  My question stands: if you're trying to
attenuate high frequencies by turning the driver around, why would you be
concerned with standing waves?

Signature

Mark
remove "remove" and "spam" to reply

> > > if you read most CA mags they say you can run certain subs without a
> > x-over
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Those are two different topic, standing waves and high freq. are not what I
> discussing, just that some subs can play high freq. that's all.
Tha Ghee - 17 Apr 2004 07:55 GMT
> You brought up high frequencies to demonstrate that standing waves can be an
> issue.  So the two are inseparable.  My question stands: if you're trying to
> attenuate high frequencies by turning the driver around, why would you be
> concerned with standing waves?

standing waves have nothing to do with high freq.  if I said that it was a
mistake.
thelizman - 04 Apr 2004 05:40 GMT
> if you read most CA mags they say you can run certain subs without a x-over
> just face it away from the front.  ok Les and you're so eloquent can I be
> like you when I'm near 80??

Without a crossover, it is not longer a subwoofer. Face it away from the
front? As if high frequency sounds didn't reflect...

...just when I thought you couldn't get any more stupid, you surprise me.

Signature

thelizman                               "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

Before you ask a question, check the FAQs for this newsgroup at
http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq. It contains over a decade and
a half of knowledge.

teamROCS Car Audio Forums             http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News               http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

Tha Ghee - 11 Apr 2004 00:32 GMT
> > if you read most CA mags they say you can run certain subs without a x-over
> > just face it away from the front.  ok Les and you're so eloquent can I be
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> ...just when I thought you couldn't get any more stupid, you surprise me.

so just because it has no outside filtering it changes what it is, explain
this to me??  they do but they will get absorbed more easily then low freq.
content.  not as much as you do, I didn't know someone could spout this much
crap and no one call them on it.
thelizman - 16 Mar 2004 18:04 GMT
> I always thought the purpose for damping material was to keep sound
> waves from bouncing off of the back/sides of the enclosure and back into
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> thinking it is bigger? If you add something to a box, doesn't it make it
> smaller? LOL

The idea is that the thermal insulation aspect of "stuffing" (usually
polyfill, though fiberglass insulation has been used in some home
speakers I've seen - not hot on the idea of glass fibers being propelled
into my atmosphere) absorbs some of the acoustic output of the speaker
in the same way the air in a larger enclosure would.

In theory, it ads 15-25%. In actual practice...well...you can make up
your own mind, but I've never measured any actual noticable change that
couldn't also be accounted for by other factors.

Signature

thelizman                               "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

Before you ask a question, check the FAQs for this newsgroup at
http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq. It contains over a decade and
a half of knowledge.

teamROCS Car Audio Forums             http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News               http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

Don Hills - 17 Mar 2004 01:59 GMT
>In theory, it ads 15-25%. In actual practice...well...you can make up
>your own mind, but I've never measured any actual noticable change that
>couldn't also be accounted for by other factors.

Actually, if you use the right density of stuffing, you do get about 15 to
25% effective size increase. The stuffing slows down the propagation of the
sound waves within the enclosure. The effect is more commonly used to
advantage in "transmission line" style home enclosures, allowing the use of
a shorter line for a given bass extension. I've got a technical paper
somewhere here with suggested densities for various types of stuffing. I
expect there'll be useful information on web sites that discuss home
construction of hi-fi speakers, too.

Signature

Don Hills    (dmhills at attglobaldotnet)     Wellington, New Zealand

Nousaine - 17 Mar 2004 05:16 GMT
>>In theory, it ads 15-25%. In actual practice...well...you can make up
>>your own mind, but I've never measured any actual noticable change that
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>advantage in "transmission line" style home enclosures, allowing the use of
>a shorter line for a given bass extension.

Actually slowing down sound has nothing to do with it this effect (I've
conducted experiments that show up to 36% apparent enclosure size increase ----
1.5 lbs per cubic foot @ 1.5 ft3 enclosure.)  It has to do with keeping thermal
conditions in the enclosure closer to isothermal as opposed to adiabatic.

But, so far, all the effects are relative to small signal response ....
Theile/Small parameters. It's time to investigate large signal conditions.

I've got a technical paper
>somewhere here with suggested densities for various types of stuffing. I
>expect there'll be useful information on web sites that discuss home
>construction of hi-fi speakers, too.

1 to 1.5 pounds per cubic foot appears to be optimal and stuffing tupe
(fiberglas, rockwool, wool or polyester) idicates that polyester is as good as
the others and has no disadvantages.
Don Hills - 17 Mar 2004 15:14 GMT
>Actually slowing down sound has nothing to do with it this effect (I've
>conducted experiments that show up to 36% apparent enclosure size increase ----
>1.5 lbs per cubic foot @ 1.5 ft3 enclosure.)  It has to do with keeping thermal
>conditions in the enclosure closer to isothermal as opposed to adiabatic.

Er... No. I refer you to the seminal works on the topic:

[1] A. R. Bailey: "Non Resonant Loudspeaker Enclosure", Wireless World,
   October 1965, and "The Transmission Line Enclosure", Wireless World, May 1972.

[3] L. J .S. Bradbury: "The Use of Fibrous Materials in Loudspeaker
   Enclosures", JAES Vol. 24 No. 3, April 1976.

Both found (Bailey by experiment, Bradbury by theoretical work) that about
0.5 lb per cubic foot was optimum, and reduced the speed of sound to
around half of its free air value. This amount of reduction cannot be solely
due to isothermal versus adiabatic effects, as the theoretical maximum
reduction in apparent velocity is only on the order of 15%. Someone did some
research into the reasons for the discrepancy, and it is this paper which
I'm currently looking for in what I jokingly call a filing system. Dick
Pierce did some work on this, maybe he knows - are you listening, Dick?

For the apparent enclosure size increase, your experimental figures are
quite close to the theoretical maximum (about 40%).

>1 to 1.5 pounds per cubic foot appears to be optimal and stuffing tupe
>(fiberglas, rockwool, wool or polyester) idicates that polyester is as good as
>the others and has no disadvantages.

As the man with a wooden leg said, "That's a matter of a pinion." <grin>

Signature

Don Hills    (dmhills at attglobaldotnet)     Wellington, New Zealand

thelizman - 17 Mar 2004 17:15 GMT
> As the man with a wooden leg said, "That's a matter of a pinion." <grin>

Isn't that also the same man who said "har, whars th' cabin boyee, aye
need t'sheath me sword"?

Signature

thelizman                               "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

Before you ask a question, check the FAQs for this newsgroup at
http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq. It contains over a decade and
a half of knowledge.

teamROCS Car Audio Forums             http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News               http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

Nousaine - 17 Mar 2004 20:01 GMT
>>Actually slowing down sound has nothing to do with it this effect (I've
>>conducted experiments that show up to 36% apparent enclosure size increase
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>    October 1965, and "The Transmission Line Enclosure", Wireless World, May
>1972.

Bailey's work was with open enclosures.

>[3] L. J .S. Bradbury: "The Use of Fibrous Materials in Loudspeaker
>    Enclosures", JAES Vol. 24 No. 3, April 1976.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>due to isothermal versus adiabatic effects, as the theoretical maximum
>reduction in apparent velocity is only on the order of 15%.

I'll bow to Bradbury. Haven't read that for several years now.

Someone did some
>research into the reasons for the discrepancy, and it is this paper which
>I'm currently looking for in what I jokingly call a filing system. Dick
>Pierce did some work on this, maybe he knows - are you listening, Dick?
>
>For the apparent enclosure size increase, your experimental figures are
>quite close to the theoretical maximum (about 40%).

Indeed they were; which probably meant that the highest stuffing density may
have
somehow added mass to the system. Which is why I use 25% as a rule of thumb.

>>1 to 1.5 pounds per cubic foot appears to be optimal and stuffing tupe
>>(fiberglas, rockwool, wool or polyester) idicates that polyester is as good
>as
>>the others and has no disadvantages.
>
>As the man with a wooden leg said, "That's a matter of a pinion." <grin>

I'll amend that to 1 lb/ft3.
Don Hills - 18 Mar 2004 10:58 GMT
>Bailey's work was with open enclosures.

Indeed, and if you refer to my earlier post you may deduce that I was
referring to transmission line enclosures. I'll concede that the original
thread topic was sealed boxes.

>Indeed they were; which probably meant that the highest stuffing density may
>have
>somehow added mass to the system. Which is why I use 25% as a rule of thumb.

I seem to recall that one theory for the greater than expected reduction of
velocity in a transmission line was due to physical coupling (movement) of
the fibres, but I may be wrong - that's why I want to find the paper.

Signature

Don Hills    (dmhills at attglobaldotnet)     Wellington, New Zealand

Eddie Runner - 17 Mar 2004 20:12 GMT
give him hell Don!
Tom wrote a paper for a car audiuo magazine that seemed to
me to be just a sensationalized (exagerated!) plagerizm of the
original fellows that you quote below...

I tried to point this out to him several
times but he wont put up any of his test data and only wants to
belittle my expertise on the matter...

I have been trying to drag him into a good conversation on this
topic for quite some time so I could do some testing and post a
web page on just how wrong he is...  But he wont discuss it at
all he just wants to say he is right and everyone else is wrong.

Tom gets these old tech papers and he appearantly thinks no one
else on here is gonna have the same papers so he embelishes them
for his own purposes and tells his falsehoods....

He tried it on me quoting Beraneks book... I think I suprised
the crap outa him when I actually had the book  and I posted some drawings
and text from the same book which proved him totally wrong on some
standing wave issues...

Toms not a bad guy, he is just a little overzealous in his embelishing
of facts so he can publish his own papers in largely non technical
magazines for profit...

> >Actually slowing down sound has nothing to do with it this effect (I've
> >conducted experiments that show up to 36% apparent enclosure size increase ----
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> --
> Don Hills    (dmhills at attglobaldotnet)     Wellington, New Zealand
Don Hills - 18 Mar 2004 11:07 GMT
>give him hell Don!

Why? I'm aware of his history, and he does appear to be what many claim him
to be, but he's made his reputation and now he has to live with it.
As you well know, I generally confine myself to gently pointing out the
misconceptions some people expound from time to time. Have you figured out
how a bridged amp works yet? <big grin> And notice how the "should I fasten
down my sub box" thread went quiet? <bigger grin> I could see the light
bulbs lighting up from way over here...

>Toms not a bad guy, he is just a little overzealous in his embelishing
>of facts so he can publish his own papers in largely non technical
>magazines for profit...

Thanks for the concise potted history. Google Groups filled in the gaps.
I saw some of the arguments that Tom has been in while I was looking for
clues as to the title of the paper I can't find. (I did find an on-topic
post by Dick Pierce from 1985...)

Signature

Don Hills    (dmhills at attglobaldotnet)     Wellington, New Zealand
"I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi-
national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet
software and decent hardware support."

Eddie Runner - 18 Mar 2004 19:06 GMT
>  Have you figured out
> how a bridged amp works yet? <big grin>

Please notice that thanks to my persistance it is now
VERY RARE to find someone saying that bridging
halves the resistance....

> And notice how the "should I fasten
> down my sub box" thread went quiet? <bigger grin>

I dont remember that thread was I in that one..??

Eddie
Don Hills - 19 Mar 2004 00:56 GMT
>Please notice that thanks to my persistance it is now
>VERY RARE to find someone saying that bridging
>halves the resistance....

Ah, but that doesn't mean you're right. <just kidding>

>I dont remember that thread was I in that one..??

Nope. Sancho and Lizard were. Look in Google for "How to secure a sub
enclosure", started 2 weeks ago.

Signature

Don Hills    (dmhills at attglobaldotnet)     Wellington, New Zealand

Eddie Runner - 19 Mar 2004 01:36 GMT
> >Please notice that thanks to my persistance it is now
> >VERY RARE to find someone saying that bridging
> >halves the resistance....
>
> Ah, but that doesn't mean you're right. <just kidding>

a few years back everyone said bridging halves speakers
impedance.. it was on tech websites, manufacturers web sites,
(some of my best argueing was with some of the JL techs) and
even in amp install manuals....  Thanks to my persistance none
of that is there anymore, folks have learned the truth... Damn
I am good....  ;-)

> >I dont remember that thread was I in that one..??
>
> Nope. Sancho and Lizard were. Look in Google for "How to secure a sub
> enclosure", started 2 weeks ago.

Ahhh...
I try not to argue with morons...

Eddie
gregs - 20 Mar 2004 04:27 GMT
>> >Please notice that thanks to my persistance it is now
>> >VERY RARE to find someone saying that bridging
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>of that is there anymore, folks have learned the truth... Damn
>I am good....  ;-)

Aw but you rarely hear what bridging really does.It
doubles the voltage!

greg
Scott Gardner - 20 Mar 2004 05:18 GMT
>>> >Please notice that thanks to my persistance it is now
>>> >VERY RARE to find someone saying that bridging
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>of that is there anymore, folks have learned the truth... Damn
>>I am good....  ;-)

>Aw but you rarely hear what bridging really does.It
>doubles the voltage!
>
>greg

True, and I've always wondered why it's not explained that way more
often in the first place.  I used to see that "halving the impedance"
crap all the time too, when the correct explanation is so much simpler
- you double the voltage swing, which quadruples the output power.
(Obviously, the *total* power only doubles, since you're going from
two channels to only one when you bridge the amp.)

Liz - I'm saddened to hear that the JL techs were arguing with you
about how amp bridging works.  I can understand it if the marketing
types were confused, and maybe even the manual writers, but the techs
and engineers should know better.  How hard is it to understand that
power equals voltage squared divided by impedance?

Scott Gardner
dontbelievethis@hotmail.com - 20 Mar 2004 16:30 GMT
>True, and I've always wondered why it's not explained that way more
>often in the first place.  I used to see that "halving the impedance"
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Scott Gardner

Power does not equal voltage squared divided by impedance..... sorry,
but power equalss voltage squared divided by resistance...

impedance and resistances are different...

If you wanna be talking about impedences...you gotta take into account
PF angles...  which means you arent really dealing with Power anymore,
your dealing  V-A  (volt-amps).  Just what i gathered at Electrical
eng. school.

Never did understand why speakers are rated in WATTS and impedences.  

Can anyone explain this to me?  Or is the 5 text books i spent ,which
seems to be, unlimited hours reading...wrong?  
Eddie Runner - 20 Mar 2004 16:52 GMT
MARKETING, MARKETING!!!!

> Never did understand why speakers are rated in WATTS and impedences.
>
> Can anyone explain this to me?  Or is the 5 text books i spent ,which
> seems to be, unlimited hours reading...wrong?
Scott Gardner - 20 Mar 2004 17:48 GMT
>>True, and I've always wondered why it's not explained that way more
>>often in the first place.  I used to see that "halving the impedance"
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>Can anyone explain this to me?  Or is the 5 text books i spent ,which
>seems to be, unlimited hours reading...wrong?  

"Power" is a valid term for describing both AC and DC circuits - the
units just differ.  "Power" is simply the rate of energy flow in a
circuit (first derivative of energy with respect to time, or p=dw/dt).
This rate of energy flow is always called "power", whether we're
talking about DC or AC circuits.  The load in question can be purely
resistive, purely reactive, or a combination of the two - "power" is
still a valid term to describe the rate of energy flow through the
load.

In AC power equations, you have "true power", "reactive power", and
"apparent power" (this is the infamous "power triangle").  "Apparent
power" is the hypotenuse of the triangle, and "true power" and
"reactive power" are the two legs.

True power comes from the resistive portion of the load, and reactive
power comes from the reactive portion of the load.  True power is
measured in Watts, and reactive power is measured in VAR (volt-amps
reactive).   Apparent power is the combination of the two, and as
you've mentioned, is properly measured in VA (volt-amps).

Impedance is a combination of resistance and reactance.  The same
formula applies throughout, though.

True power is voltage squared divided by resistance.
Reactive power is voltage squared divided by reactance.
Apparent (or total) power is voltage squared divided by impedance.

So, voltage squared divided by impedance is a valid equation for
Apparent (or total) power in an AC circuit.  You are correct that in
AC circuits, there will be phase and time components in the voltage
and reactance to deal with as well.

As to your question about why speakers are rated using "Watts" and
"impedence", they're half-correct.  Speaker loads have both a
resistive component and a reactive component.  This combination of
resistance and reactance is "impedance", so they're correct to use
"impedance" to describe a speaker.

However, since speakers loads are both resistive and reactive, the
power delivered to them is both true power and reactive power.  Thus,
the total power delivered to the speaker is the combination of the
two, or "apparent power".  Apparent power should be measured in V-A,
not Watts.  Technically, stereo amplifiers should be rated in V-A as
well.  I figure more consumers understand "Watts" as a unit of power
than volt-amps, and as long as the amp manufacturers and speaker
manufacturers are on the same page, there's no real harm done in using
"Watts" instead of the correct "volt-amps"

Scott Gardner
Kevin Murray - 20 Mar 2004 21:45 GMT
Speakers are rated in watts in order to tell you how much electrical power they
can dissipate. Over 95% of the power delivered to a loudspeaker is dissipated as
heat by it's resistive element and can quickly barbecue the voice coil. Reactive
power (V-A) is what does all the work in a speaker. Since the reactive power is
not converted to heat, the maximum V-A delivered to a speaker will vary
depending on several things such as enclosure type, signal frequency, and driver
x-max among others. In this case the driver will reach it's excursion limit and
mechanically destroy itself.

Since your average loudspeaker is only about 5% efficient at best, it's
satisfactory to only provide it's maximum power rating in watts. If a speaker
bottoms out it will sound like crap and the listener will turn down the volume.
This inherent "built-in protection" protects the speaker from mechanical damage
resulting from excessive V-A.

Kevin Murray

> >True, and I've always wondered why it's not explained that way more
> >often in the first place.  I used to see that "halving the impedance"
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Can anyone explain this to me?  Or is the 5 text books i spent ,which
> seems to be, unlimited hours reading...wrong?
thelizman - 20 Mar 2004 23:59 GMT
> If a speaker
> bottoms out it will sound like crap and the listener will turn down the volume.
> This inherent "built-in protection" protects the speaker from mechanical damage
> resulting from excessive V-A.

You would think, anyway. What most often happens is the listener ignores
it, thinks its part of the source, or because the subs are in the trunk
they don't even notice. Thats why as an installer I was such a fan of
Alpine's (or was it JBL's?)old soft-clip design. The speaker never
bottomed out per-se, it just got harder to push.

It's also worth pointing out that IME 75% of the time a speaker blows,
its not the voice coil that went bad, but the mechanical portion of the
speaker which couldn't handle the abuse. Spiders and surrounds come
unglued, get worn out, or the cone itself becomes warped. I've even seen
some speakers where the leads get ripped out of the speaker terminal in
subs that have high Xmax, but don't cut the leads long enough. Power
handling in a voice coil is rarely a problem. Thats why I tell people
not to worry about an amp thats too big, you can always turn it down
when things start to go "thwack!".

Signature

thelizman                               "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

Before you ask a question, check the FAQs for this newsgroup at
http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq. It contains over a decade and
a half of knowledge.

teamROCS Car Audio Forums             http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News               http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

Nousaine - 23 Mar 2004 04:08 GMT
thelizman hammerattack@teamrocs.com
wrote:

Kevin Murray wrote:
>> If a speaker
>> bottoms out it will sound like crap and the listener will turn down the
>volume.
>> This inherent "built-in protection" protects the speaker from mechanical
>damage
>> resulting from excessive V-A.

If the speaker "bottoms" meaning striking some part of the basket it is often
already damaged.

>You would think, anyway. What most often happens is the listener ignores
>it, thinks its part of the source, or because the subs are in the trunk
>they don't even notice.

That's common; an overload condition isn't "heard" until the driver quits.

Thats why as an installer I was such a fan of
>Alpine's (or was it JBL's?)old soft-clip design. The speaker never
>bottomed out per-se, it just got harder to push.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>not to worry about an amp thats too big, you can always turn it down
>when things start to go "thwack!".

FWIW; in speaker testing the most common failure mode is melting voice coil
glue. I drive every woofer to its maximum SPL capability using a ramped sine
wave ( a demanding but non-purposfully threatening) that has characteristics
similar to musical programs.

Using a Crown Macro-Tech 5000VZ I've blown up dozens of woofers but have only
damaged suspensions on a few occasions. It's true that this represents a lab
condition and not repeated abuse over a long time. But, thinking about it,
nearly all woofers have more Xsus (linear suspension stroke) than Xmag (linear
motor travel) so it's hard to imagine a situation where a limited stroke motor
woukd tear out a suspension with more travel.

Not saying that it doesn't happen; I'd just like to know more about the
circumstance.    
Eddie Runner - 23 Mar 2004 18:18 GMT
> Not saying that it doesn't happen; I'd just like to know more about the
> circumstance.

Tom, I think Liz, and maybe other installers may be mistaken here..
As installers working in the bay we do see alot of speakers with
worn out surrounds and alot of problems other than burned VCs.

But I think your right this time Tom, the things other than burned VCs
like surrounds coming apart are usually just bad (cheap or badly
engineered) speakers... Or where an installer put a screw threw it or
where the outside (where the cork would be but they dont use cork anymore)
is coming off so badly that the speaker is coming apart from the basket.

The ones where the customer just play the damn things too loud
are typicly burned coils, but we probably see (in the bays) way
more of other types of abuse on the drivers as well....

I see what Liz is saying, and you work in a lab more than a bay so
you may not see what real installers see... But what we see isnt really
what Liz thinks it is (IMO).....

Eddie Runner
Nousaine - 23 Mar 2004 20:45 GMT
Eddie Runner eddie@installer.com

...snip....>The ones where the customer just play the damn things too loud
>are typicly burned coils, but we probably see (in the bays) way
>more of other types of abuse on the drivers as well....
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Eddie Runner

Of course we're also ignoring environmental damage (temperature cycling, dirt,
ultraviolet light, moisture) as well.
Eddie Runner - 24 Mar 2004 00:54 GMT
I was covering that in design,  IMO car speakers should
be designed to withstand the elements common in a car.

Back when Boston Acoustics came out with car speakers
the first generation used a kind of a clear plastic cone, after
a year or more the cones would try out and youcould put
your finger through them like a stale cracker.....

When they fixed that the next generation ALL of the foam
surrounds rotted away after time....

Eventually they learned ..!!   ha ha

Boston isnt the only one that LEARNED the hard way
there were many, and some that havent yet...  ;-)

Eddie

> Eddie Runner eddie@installer.com
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Of course we're also ignoring environmental damage (temperature cycling, dirt,
> ultraviolet light, moisture) as well.
thelizman - 23 Mar 2004 22:00 GMT
> thelizman hammerattack@teamrocs.com
>
> FWIW; in speaker testing the most common failure mode is melting voice coil
> glue. I drive every woofer to its maximum SPL capability using a ramped sine
> wave ( a demanding but non-purposfully threatening) that has characteristics
> similar to musical programs.
<snip>
> Not saying that it doesn't happen; I'd just like to know more about the
> circumstance.    

Yeah, in your LAB, where you don't deal with seasonal swings in
temperature and humidity. Woofers should be designed for real world
conditions, not to satisfy lab tests.

Signature

thelizman                               "I didn't steal the FAQ either"

Before you ask a question, check the FAQs for this newsgroup at
http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq. It contains over a decade and
a half of knowledge.

teamROCS Car Audio Forums             http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/
teamROCS Car Audio News               http://www.teamrocs.com/news/
"It's about the music, stupid"

This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere
other than usenet without the express written permission of the author
is forbidden.

Kevin Murray - 24 Mar 2004 00:27 GMT
<snip>

> If the speaker "bottoms" meaning striking some part of the basket it is often
> already damaged.

<snip>

What do you mean by "striking some part of the basket?" I was referring to the
motor assembly. I'm sure it's possible but I've yet to see a woofer damaged from
a few whacks against the pole piece. I would think that if the diaphragm itself
were to strike the basket, the damage would be assured and catastrophic.
Nousaine - 24 Mar 2004 05:15 GMT
><snip>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>itself
>were to strike the basket, the damage would be assured and catastrophic.

I'm thinking you mean whacks against the back plate. But yes I've encountered 2
models recently where the damage sounded simply like a rubbing voice coil
and/or tinsel lead clicks but dissecting the driver revealed windings knocked
off the rear of the former and a deformed  former end.

Tinsel leads hitting the cone are a clicking phenomenon. Cone hitting the
basket is rare but seldom catastrophic; most cones will deform without
permanent damage. In the catastrophic case we usually get a broken neck joint
at the coil former/cone.

The other possibilty is the spider hitting the  basket; yes, its rare but there
are some designs where this can happen.  
MZ - 24 Mar 2004 23:00 GMT
> Speakers are rated in watts in order to tell you how much electrical power they
> can dissipate. Over 95% of the power delivered to a loudspeaker is dissipated as
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> This inherent "built-in protection" protects the speaker from mechanical damage
> resulting from excessive V-A.

5%?  You're being kind...
Kevin Murray - 25 Mar 2004 00:53 GMT
Like I said, "at best." You never know when someone has come up with a yet
unknown but more efficient design. I was covering my a.s really.

> > Speakers are rated in watts in order to tell you how much electrical power
> they
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> 5%?  You're being kind...
Eddie Runner - 20 Mar 2004 16:52 GMT
> Liz - I'm saddened to hear that the JL techs were arguing with you
> about how amp bridging works.

Liz..????????????

No Scott, it was me!  Eddie Runner!

In the old days EVERYONE said inpedance halves when bridging
an amplifier (thats how bridging works)... Many amp manuals
said so.. Many web sites said so. Most all installers said so...
And RAC said so every day!

Anyone that was around back then will remember my relentless
debates and arguements over why it was not so... It is doubling the
voltage, not halving the impedance!

If youve been around to see me in some big arguements here then
let me tell you the recent arguements are nothing compared to the
size and length of the arguements over bridging that we used to have,
those were the whoppers!!  Since EVERYONE was against me, I
sometimes argued against 5 or 6 guys at the same time, it was
overwhelming but I stuck it out and eventually won just about everyone
over to the truth....

Alot of folks back then called me the bridging guy.

After a while when someone would come on and say bridging halves
the impedence, someone would say DONT LET EDDIE SEE YOU
SAY THAT!!    ha ha ha

Nowdays I almost never hear that anymore... For a while I know folks
were afraid I would jump on them if they said it... ;-)   Now, it may just
be because amps arent bridged that much anymore, the class D amps
are so common......

Get it right in the history books, it was Eddie Runner, not Liz!

Eddie
MZ - 24 Mar 2004 23:04 GMT
> Since EVERYONE was against me, I
> sometimes argued against 5 or 6 guys at the same time, it was
> overwhelming but I stuck it out and eventually won just about everyone
> over to the truth....

Yeah, but that's like heaven to you.
Eddie Runner - 25 Mar 2004 00:10 GMT
yes it was some of the most fun online I have ever had...

> > Since EVERYONE was against me, I
> > sometimes argued against 5 or 6 guys at the same time, it was
> > overwhelming but I stuck it out and eventually won just about everyone
> > over to the truth....
>
> Yeah, but that's like heaven to you.
Kevin Murray - 25 Mar 2004 00:55 GMT
What's the most fun you've had online...?

> yes it was some of the most fun online I have ever had...
Eddie Runner - 25 Mar 2004 01:46 GMT
im not gonna say

> What's the most fun you've had online...?
>
> > yes it was some of the most fun online I have ever had...
MZ - 25 Mar 2004 01:52 GMT
My guess is it involves the name "Paris Hilton"...

Signature

Mark
remove "remove" and "spam" to reply

> im not gonna say
>
> > What's the most fun you've had online...?
> >
> > > yes it was some of the most fun online I have ever had...
gregs - 18 Mar 2004 20:41 GMT
>>>In theory, it ads 15-25%. In actual practice...well...you can make up
>>>your own mind, but I've never measured any actual noticable change that
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>But, so far, all the effects are relative to small signal response ....
>Theile/Small parameters. It's time to investigate large signal conditions.

That would be an interesting investigation.

greg
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2010 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.