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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Car Audio / March 2004Perforating stock door grills
In my Maxima I have my 8-inch Dyns behind the stock door panels. Problem is the stock grills are perforated in an approx. 5-inch circle. So quite a bit of the midwoofer is hidden behind the grill. One of the things I eventually want to do is work on angling the driver upwards and towards the rear of the car for better imaging. But first, I need to work on perfing the stock grills so the mids aren't blocked. I was thinking on starting with a very small drill bit to drill out the "fake" holes that don't actually go all the way through the door. But, I don't wanna make it look crappy, either. Anyone have any advice for me? Here is a picutre of what I'm talking about. You can see the mid behind the grill: http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/4/web/196000-196999/196550_87_full.jpg Thanks, Tony  SignatureWhat's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact What's your xover point? If it's just being used for midbass, then angling it and perforating it is not going to be that important. SignatureMark remove "remove" and "spam" to reply > In my Maxima I have my 8-inch Dyns behind the stock door panels. Problem is > the stock grills are perforated in an approx. 5-inch circle. So quite a bit [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Anyone have any advice for me? Here is a picutre of what I'm talking about. > You can see the mid behind the grill: http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/4/web/196000-196999/196550_87_full.jpg > Thanks, > > Tony What's your xover point? If it's just being used for midbass, then angling it and perforating it is not going to be that important. I tuned it by ear, but I'm guessing it's somewhere around 600-800Hz. I think perfing and angling would be very beneficial in the this range, correct? Tony SignatureWhat's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact > What's your xover point? If it's just being used for midbass, then angling > it and perforating it is not going to be that important. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > about. > > You can see the mid behind the grill: http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/4/web/196000-196999/196550_87_full.jpg > > Thanks, > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > wouldn't > > have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact I would leave it alone. it would be a lot of work for minimal improvement, if any. > What's your xover point? If it's just being used for midbass, then angling > it and perforating it is not going to be that important. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > > way through the door. But, I don't wanna make it look crappy, either. > > > Anyone have any advice for me? Here is a picutre of what I'm talking > > about. > > > You can see the mid behind the grill: http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/4/web/196000-196999/196550_87_full.jpg > > > Thanks, > > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > wouldn't > > > have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact > I tuned it by ear, but I'm guessing it's somewhere around 600-800Hz. I > think perfing and angling would be very beneficial in the this range, > correct? Oh, that's higher than I guessed. It could provide some improvement, yes. But don't be shocked if the improvement is only minor. Well thanks for the replies everyone. Now...anyone care to comment as to how to go about the actual perforating? I would rather leave it alone if it means making the door panel look crappy. But I'd like to try. Any suggestions? Tony SignatureWhat's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact > > I tuned it by ear, but I'm guessing it's somewhere around 600-800Hz. I > > think perfing and angling would be very beneficial in the this range, > > correct? > > Oh, that's higher than I guessed. It could provide some improvement, yes. > But don't be shocked if the improvement is only minor. Tony, Some questions, what is the grill itself made of ? Hard plastic? Is the grill removable from the door panel ? Not knowing much about your particular car I assume that both of these are true. If so take off the door panel, remove the grill, drill or perf out your new larger open area, cover the stock grill with black grill cloth and then reattach it to the door panel. This should solve all of your issues mechanically and asthetically. Regarding sound quality, angling the drivers will probably be of virtually no consequence due to the dispersion pattern of that driver. A much bigger issue is the kick panels I can see just in front of the midbass drivers in your photo. What is the pathlength difference between the left midrange and your left ear and the right midrange and your right ear. Are your kick panels speakers wired "in phase" ? > Well thanks for the replies everyone. Now...anyone care to comment as to > how to go about the actual perforating? I would rather leave it alone if it [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Oh, that's higher than I guessed. It could provide some improvement, yes. > > But don't be shocked if the improvement is only minor. > Tony, > Some questions, what is the grill itself made of ? Hard plastic? Is [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > between the left midrange and your left ear and the right midrange and > your right ear. Are your kick panels speakers wired "in phase" ? Scott, I'm not so sure your take is right on. The dispersion characteristics of those speakers, and the localization of the frequencies at the higher portions of their spectrum (400Hz-800Hz) may indeed warrant angling the drivers. That is, there may in fact be an improvement by doing so. However, I would not expect the improvement to be substantial. Definitely noticable though. If it's do-able (mounting depth considerations, etc aside), I'd consider going for it. > > Tony, > > Some questions, what is the grill itself made of ? Hard plastic? Is [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > If it's do-able (mounting depth considerations, etc aside), I'd consider > going for it. MZ, The localization of any set of loudspeakers operating in that frequency range is driven by the Hass effect or arrival times. Since the speakers are mounted in the doors the path lengths are probably at least 12" to 14" different from each other. With that kind of difference my bet is that you can angle them all you want and the change to stage presentation , and imaging would be moot. You just can't fool the laws of physics. > MZ, > The localization of any set of loudspeakers operating in that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > change to stage presentation , and imaging would be moot. You just > can't fool the laws of physics. Scott, it's not imaging that concerns me. It's the on-axis vs. off-axis frequency response of the drivers. If they're playing that high, clearly there will be some attenuation effects at the upper part of their bandwidth. > > MZ, > > The localization of any set of loudspeakers operating in that [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > frequency response of the drivers. If they're playing that high, clearly > there will be some attenuation effects at the upper part of their bandwidth. PS - So that you don't misunderstand my point, I should probably emphasize again that the effects will probably be minor. Scott wrote: "The localization of any set of loudspeakers operating in that frequency range is driven by the Hass effect or arrival times. Since the speakers are mounted in the doors the path lengths are probably at least 12" to 14" different from each other. With that kind of difference my bet is that you can angle them all you want and the change to stage presentation , and imaging would be moot. You just can't fool the laws of physics." First of all, the midwoofers are mounted in the far low corners of the doors and the mids and tweeters slightly farther ahead in kick panels. Although pathlengths are still not equal, it's about as good as I can get in my car without some serious customization. Second, I don't THINK the arrival of sound has anything to do with the aiming of the sound...at least in terms of what I'm trying to do, which is acheive a better soundstage. Mark, I think I'm on the right path with my very simple, possibly flawed explanation. Can you correct and/or elaborate for me? Tony SignatureWhat's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact > Scott wrote: "The localization of any set of loudspeakers operating in that > frequency range is driven by the Hass effect or arrival times. Since the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Mark, I think I'm on the right path with my very simple, possibly flawed > explanation. Can you correct and/or elaborate for me? I think he's talking primarily about imaging, in which case his analysis is correct. You won't achieve much by doing what you're planning to do. In fact, after reviewing my initial reply to Scott, it appears I misspoke. I mentioned something about localization, but I don't think that will have much of a bearing. In terms of frequency response (ie. sensitivity), I think it could provide a slight benefit. However, keep in mind that the effect is slight, because attenuation due to aiming usually doesn't start to play a major factor until ~1kHz or higher, so you're really at the cusp of where things could get noticeable. Frankly, if it's a difficult job, which I suspect may be the case, I don't think it's worth doing. The effect will be minor (but noticable), and not necessarily better! "Some questions, what is the grill itself made of ? Hard plastic?" Yes. "Is the grill removable from the door panel ?" No. I've had thoughts of carefully cutting it out so it can be re-inserted with a grill cover, though. Heck, if I could remove it, I would probably just fabricate a custom grill myself! "Regarding sound quality, angling the drivers will probably be of virtually no consequence due to the dispersion pattern of that driver." Like Mark said, with as high as the driver is reproducing, between 600-800Hz, it "should" make a difference. When I had these in my Explorer they were angled and I liked it quite a bit. Of course, there were other differences as well, so who knows? I hate to quote the Dynaudio manual, but it specifically says angle mounting of the midwoofer is very critical. I figure it can't hurt...and if it does I can always change it back. "A much bigger issue is the kick panels I can see just in front of the midbass drivers in your photo. What is the pathlength difference between the left midrange and your left ear and the right midrange and your right ear. Are your kick panels speakers wired "in phase" ?" Well, I suppose the kick panels have reduced the pathlengths as much as feasibly possible. As far as being in phase, I've tried all sorts of combinations and whatever they're set at right now seems to be the best. I mean, they're tri-amped and ran actively, so I have a HUGE number of variable for me to mess around with.!! LOL Thanks, Tony What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact > "Some questions, what is the grill itself made of ? Hard plastic?" > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't > have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact Tony, I guess it all depends what you are after. Everything is a trade off. I break things down into three catagories - tonality, stage, and image. Tonality is the easiest to achieve, any decent set of drivers and a 3rd octave eq and your done. Proper stage is second in difficulty because it is driven by so many factors. Eq setup, speaker location, materials used in the cars interior, ect. Imaging is the tough one, and the most rewarding, when close your eyes and favorite vocalist is standing at the end of your hood, dead center, singing your favorite cut, well is just doesn't get much better than that. Imaging is almost always best achieved with as few as drivers as possible. Don't get mad at me but have you tried not using the door speakers ? The kick panels look like Q-forms which are made to hold a 5.25" or 6.5" speaker. You should be able to get down to 200hz with these relatively easily. Use the steepest slope on your crossover for protection. Getting away from the doors all together should help with imaging in a big way. Once you get the imaging thing going on the rest just kind of falls into place. Like I said please don't get upset with me for making this suggestion but I have been doing this for a while. I built my first tri amped car system was in 1977. A Audiovox 8 track hooked to three Audiovox Sound Exploders, a pair of 8" Radio Shack woofers in the rear deck, Craig Power Play 5.25" in the lower front of the doors, and a set of Radio Shack piezo tweeters under the dash. It was all in a 1966 Chevy Belair, and no one had ever seen or heard anything like it. I have built literally hundreds of cars, some for fun and some have won IASCA and or USAC championships. Out of all of these cars some things just do not change, physics is one of them. Good Luck, Scott P.S. Enjoy the Journey |
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