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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Car Audio / April 2004Help: SubWoofer Opinion needed...
Hello all. Not to busy any particular person's or scene's chops but I have found the vast majority of subwoofers to be completely overbearing, boomy...and just as terrible to the overall sound quality of a system as screeching, shrill- as-a-banshee tweeters are, if not more. I don't say that to put anything or anyone down, I say that to attempt to express what I do NOT want. What I do want is something that takes care of business in a very pleasant, very *accurate* and almost transparent nature. My desire is not to wake the neighbors, or set off car alarms or enter competitions. I want something that'd fill what my Kappa 6x9s don't do. I don't want the slightest trace of boom. My understanding is a slightly smaller-than-recommended sealed box will help and that *anything* ported will be detrimental in the end. Tell me if I'm dreaming or if I'm wrong, etc. What are your thoughts? Matt > Hello all. > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > What are your thoughts? Perhaps go with an 8" ... that will minimize the output below 30Hz (where the BOOM is) Typically an 8" can't do much that far down, can't move enough air. I disagree with the slag about ported boxes though. A ported enclosure will give a flatter response curve until you get to the tuning frequency and then drop off VERY quickly after that, which actually would be a good thing in your situation, even less output down in the BOOMy area. Would help to get an amp with a subsonic filter on it. Any comments on this opinion? Yeah, I was thinking an 8" too. But maybe a 10". I thought sealed=accurate though and ported has a 'droning tone'? What is a subsonic filter? > Perhaps go with an 8" ... that will minimize the output below 30Hz > (where the BOOM is) Typically an 8" can't do much that far down, can't [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > down in the BOOMy area. Would help to get an amp with a subsonic > filter on it. Any comments on this opinion? > Yeah, I was thinking an 8" too. But maybe a 10". Basically, because you aren't interested in a great deal of volume (SPL), a 10" is probably overkill. Doesn't mean you shouldn't get one, just might not be necessary to achieve the desired results. > I thought sealed=accurate though and ported has a 'droning tone'? No. Sealed doesn't fall off as quickly in the low freqency range (below 30Hz) and ported has a little extra kick near the tuning frequency and then falls off rapidly. Feel free to ask more questions if "fall off" doesn't mean anything to you. > What is a subsonic filter? It can be part of an active crossover (which some amps have built in) which cuts out the extremely low frequencies (subsonic frequencies) Helps to prevent excessive excursion when using a ported enclosure below the tuning frequency. Thanks. So are 10's on average more-efficient than 8's? What if I wanted the quick fall-off of a port without any extra kick anywhere? Is that possible? What range of Hz is considered 'subsonic' - anything below 20Hz? >> Yeah, I was thinking an 8" too. But maybe a 10". > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Helps to prevent excessive excursion when using a ported enclosure > below the tuning frequency. > Thanks. So are 10's on average more-efficient than 8's? sometimes > What if I wanted the quick fall-off of a port without any extra kick > anywhere? Is that possible? yes, turn down the amplifier gain. > What range of Hz is considered 'subsonic' - anything below 20Hz? sure. > >> Yeah, I was thinking an 8" too. But maybe a 10". > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Helps to prevent excessive excursion when using a ported enclosure > > below the tuning frequency. > Thanks. So are 10's on average more-efficient than 8's? It's not really a matter of efficiency, the 10" driver can move more air with 3mm (for example) of excursion then the 8" can ... it's just a matter of surface area. > What if I wanted the quick fall-off of a port without any extra kick > anywhere? Is that possible? Scott is correct, but I would think your best option is an equalizer to tweak things. > What range of Hz is considered 'subsonic' - anything below 20Hz? Subsonic is literally any frequency that is too low to be detected by the human ear. So technically it will be different for each person. I would suggest anything lower then ~25Hz is pretty much non-existant to most people, you just "feel" it. > Subsonic is literally any frequency that is too low to be detected by > the human ear. So technically it will be different for each person. I > would suggest anything lower then ~25Hz is pretty much non-existant to > most people, you just "feel" it. It would be lovely to 'feel' it when I am sort of 'concentrating' on it, but also be so transparent it doesn't make itself known and scream "hey everybody, I've got a sub!!!". > > Subsonic is literally any frequency that is too low to be detected by > > the human ear. So technically it will be different for each person. I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > but also be so transparent it doesn't make itself known and scream "hey > everybody, I've got a sub!!!". a lot of that can be adjusted with the crossover frequency and gain control. the last 4 systems i've had did not need any eq. because i adjusted the crossovers and gains until the system blended together. Depends on your definition of BOOM!! IMHO boom is easily 30HZ and above, more like the 50-80hz region.... just put that rap crap on a RTA and it'll tell ya that... a 8 will work, and I believe for the love of space, good power handling and frequency response he should use a sealed enclosure. Amp (or xover) should have a sub sonic filter to keep the 8 from trying to play what it can't, too. FHLH... this is the way I see it. I'd use an ID sub too "Daniel Snooks" <dsnooks70@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:yUjdc.11023 > Perhaps go with an 8" ... that will minimize the output below 30Hz (where > the BOOM is) Typically an 8" can't do much that far down, can't move enough [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > get an amp with a subsonic filter on it. > Any comments on this opinion? > Depends on your definition of BOOM!! IMHO boom is easily 30HZ and > above, more like the 50-80hz region.... just put that rap crap on a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > FHLH... this is the way I see it. I'd use an ID sub too BTW fellas... What enclosure size for an 8"/Sealed or 8"/Bandpass? > BTW fellas... > > What enclosure size for an 8"/Sealed or 8"/Bandpass? typical sealed for an 8" would be ~0.5 cuft. bandpass is not simple to answer, too many factors ... probably at least 1.25 cuft. > typical sealed for an 8" would be ~0.5 cuft. bandpass is not simple to > answer, too many factors ... probably at least 1.25 cuft. Thanks. What might be some of those factors? > > typical sealed for an 8" would be ~0.5 cuft. bandpass is not simple to > > answer, too many factors ... probably at least 1.25 cuft. > > > Thanks. > What might be some of those factors? There are three major items involved. I don't know the technical terms but ... the speaker itself is mounted on the baffle. An airspace must be created in front of the speaker, an airspace must be created behind the speaker. One of those airspaces must be ported (typically the rear one) So the factors are ... 1) the volume of the airspace in front of the speaker 2) the volume of the airspace behind the speaker 3) the volume of the port Even small differences in any of the 3 items cause big changes in the output of the enclosure. Bandpass boxes must be designed and built very carefully or they will pretty much sound like a$$ Sorry about the extremely non-technical language, but I suppose that's not necessarily a bad thing :-) >> > typical sealed for an 8" would be ~0.5 cuft. bandpass is not simple to >> > answer, too many factors ... probably at least 1.25 cuft. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Sorry about the extremely non-technical language, but I suppose that's not >necessarily a bad thing :-) Here's the rave-up on bandpass speaker enclosures. The primary 'benefits' are generally described as a free low pass filter because the upper range is attenuated by the enclosure and the ability to use drivers with sub-optimal paramaters (usually @ lower cost) for a given application. The disadvantages are increased design and construction complexity, the tendency for faster speaker damage because the 2nd enclosure while helping to sharpen the low pass filter also tends to attenuate the artifacts of loudspeaker overload to the listener and, finally a larger overall enclosure size for a given frequency response/SPL. I like to think of a bandpass as a ported enclosure placed on the face of an ordinary sealed or ported system. That is an oversimplification, of course, but it is easier for me to think of such a system in terms of basic operational characteristics and get past the mystery. >>> > typical sealed for an 8" would be ~0.5 cuft. bandpass is not >>> > simple to answer, too many factors ... probably at least 1.25 [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > of course, but it is easier for me to think of such a system in terms > of basic operational characteristics and get past the mystery. Thx for the replies fellas... I may have gotten 'ahead of myself' here... I forgot that ported and bandpass are different, so let me re-ask: Ported... Bandpass... Sealed... pros/cons please? Sounds like Sealed has the worst dB dropoff which isn't very reassuring to me by the sounds of it. And unfortunately until now, my mind's been melding ported and bandpass as 'the same thing'. If you already think Sealed's out of the way, then just focus on ported vs. bandpass. I get the gist of bandpass' increased box complexity...and that raises another question I have... Sub box: DIY or buy them? pros/cons? I *really* appreciate all of your input!!! Matt > >>> > typical sealed for an 8" would be ~0.5 cuft. bandpass is not > >>> > simple to answer, too many factors ... probably at least 1.25 [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > Sounds like Sealed has the worst dB dropoff which isn't very reassuring > to me by the sounds of it. it has a smoother roll off. it doesn't drop as fast as a ported box. a good way to visualize this is to download WINISD (free) and try modeling a speaker in different enclosures. I like sealed boxes myself due to the fact that normally they can be smaller, play lower, easier to build, and handle more power. > And unfortunately until now, my mind's been melding ported and bandpass > as 'the same thing'. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Matt ...snip..... >> Sounds like Sealed has the worst dB dropoff which isn't very reassuring >> to me by the sounds of it. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >that normally they can be smaller, play lower, easier to build, and handle >more power. The exact figures for the below system resonance fall off under anechoic conditions are 12-dB per octave for sealed systems and 24-dB per octave for ported. In a car at very low frequencies this means the cabin gain will often match the sealed fall-off closely enabling response flat to 10 Hz unless limited by driver displacement or amplifier power. Ported systems are often tuned to around 30-40 Hz and with smaller enclosures a 6-10 dB response peak near the tuning frequency with sharply falling (24-dB per octave) below that. Another disadvantage of ported enclosures is that the hole-in-the-box means that the driver lacks the restoring force of the air trapped in the cabinet and signals below the system resonant frequency may cause distortion or even damage. you've been listening to improperly installed subs then....plus, to me, it sounds like you want to use a "sub" woofer as just that. a "sub" woofer.... not a midbass boomer... I think an Image Dynamic IDQ v2 is what you need and I'll leave it at that. FHLH..... > Hello all. > > Not to busy any particular person's or scene's chops but I have found the > vast majority of subwoofers to be completely overbearing, boomy...and just > as terrible to the overall sound quality of a system as screeching, shrill- > as-a-banshee tweeters are, if not more. > SNIPPED > you've been listening to improperly installed subs then....plus, to > me, it sounds like you want to use a "sub" woofer as just that. a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > FHLH..... It could very well be just that, no doubt. Then again, in a younger age demographic that I'm in, the vast majority of people aren't installing subs for anything short of attention of some sort or another. ;) Anyhow, point was: if I can distinguish that the sub exists/if it doesn't 'blend' well, then it's worthless to me. I'd rather have a nice, well- rounded 6x9 than a noticeable/overbearing sub. And the majority of subs I've heard don't blend and 'tire my ears'. > And the majority of subs I've heard don't blend and 'tire my ears'. Turn it down.  Signaturecyrus *coughcasaucedoprodigynetcough* >> And the majority of subs I've heard don't blend and 'tire my ears'. > > Turn it down. Yes, volume has a lot to do with a sub's transparency, but I don't think your suggestion finishes the issue at hand. ;) It depends entirely on the enclosure. A good woofer in a junk enclosure won't sound good. Etc. P. > Hello all. > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Matt |
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