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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Car Audio / June 2004old school car audio guy comes back around for one run, wants an update on components and subs
OK, The last time I did a system was in 94 when i had my quart components in the front of a 94 civic with 4 mtx 10" in a bandpass box ported through the rear deck. I was running a clarion head and a pair of punch 45's. Now I have decided to put a more mature sytem in my 03 rsx-s . I want to maximize sound quality, not cause any crazy resonation of interior panels and keep the system simple along with the price down. Sounds hard huh? Well first off I dont know what to do about a head unit. I really like the sony head with the built in hard drive but I worry about audio qualtiy. I think any cd player with good DA's and can play mp3's would suit me well. As for compenets, same deal. When i left quart ruled the world and there were people around me that were starting to get some more rare stuff like focal and dynaudio. I have been looking at a/d/s , the jl audio compenets, JBL's GTI line and quarts. I love real punchy mids and midbass with a nice smooth non harsh tweet. At home i listen to Sonus Faber if that gives any of you an idea. Subs? Well , i feel that this is a less critical choice. If i get the mid bass i want out of the front compenents I just want to run a jl 6 in the trunk mounted in a ported enclosure residing in the spare tire well . I might consider an 8 but I am unsure of which one to get. Amps, well ive been looking at A/D/S and thats really it. I need something that has all the money i pay invested in quality parts and design of the amp. I need an amp with good headroom and a warm sound. The only other thing i have considered besides a/d/s is mcintosh but the price is a bit high for my liking. Lastly, as for signal processing, i would like to use a two way crossover built into the amp but if i need to i can go external. Again, 10 years ago audio control was the end all here. What is the current bang for your buck quality audio company. I would appreciate everyone's input, no bling blingy audio stuff please ;-) > I love real punchy mids > and midbass with a nice smooth non harsh tweet. You just described everything MB Quart is not. amen... hertz my ears. FHLH > > I love real punchy mids > > and midbass with a nice smooth non harsh tweet. > > You just described everything MB Quart is not. > OK, The last time I did a system was in 94 when i had my quart > components in the front of a 94 civic with 4 mtx 10" in a bandpass box [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > I would appreciate everyone's input, no bling blingy audio stuff > please ;-) Whats wrong with bling bling?? I am running an entirely Audiobahn (ABC series component) system powered by all MA Audio (HK series) amps. Twin Adire Audio 15" Brahma subs for the boom. I love the sound of my system. All the SPL that I can handle but the audiophiles cant touch me when it comes to SQ. Its a great balance in my opinion and I paid a hell of a lot less for it than some of the other big-money buying suckers out there. Its ALL about installation. Dont rely upon brand names. Go with what sounds the best to your own (hopefully two) ears. Want my input? Well I think JL Audio is overpriced, there are much cheaper and better alternatives IMO. I think McIntosh is seriously $$bling$$ $$bling$$, if you know the true definition of the phrase (representing money or something of extreme value). Spend your money on quality amplifiers and installation and the lesser on speakers that match characteristics you prefer. EFFENDI > OK, The last time I did a system was in 94 when i had my quart > components in the front of a 94 civic with 4 mtx 10" in a bandpass box [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > qualtiy. I think any cd player with good DA's and can play mp3's would > suit me well. Check out the newer Eclipse decks. Very nice and not too pricey. > As for compenets, same deal. When i left quart ruled the world and > there were people around me that were starting to get some more rare > stuff like focal and dynaudio. I have been looking at a/d/s , the jl > audio compenets, JBL's GTI line and quarts. I love real punchy mids > and midbass with a nice smooth non harsh tweet. At home i listen to > Sonus Faber if that gives any of you an idea. I have Dynaudio and absolutely love them. But you don't need to spend that much money to get decent sound...I guess it depends on how critical you are. As far as midbass goes, I would say this has a lot to do with the install (what doesn't). Focal certainly isn't to scoff at either. Also check out Diamond Audio. > Subs? Well , i feel that this is a less critical choice. Really? Don't skimp there!! If i get the > mid bass i want out of the front compenents I just want to run a jl 6 > in the trunk mounted in a ported enclosure residing in the spare tire > well . I might consider an 8 but I am unsure of which one to get. Again, it's all about the install. I'm not going to talk you out of an 8, but if you've got the room I would consider a 10 in a SEALED enclosure (you brought up SQ). > Amps, well ive been looking at A/D/S and thats really it. I need > something that has all the money i pay invested in quality parts and > design of the amp. I need an amp with good headroom and a warm sound. > The only other thing i have considered besides a/d/s is mcintosh but > the price is a bit high for my liking. You should consider the Phoenix Gold titanium line of amps. They sound great, have tons of power, and are very versatile. sounddomain.com is a fully authorized dealer and the prices are excellent. > Lastly, as for signal processing, i would like to use a two way > crossover built into the amp but if i need to i can go external. > Again, 10 years ago audio control was the end all here. What is the > current bang for your buck quality audio company. > I would appreciate everyone's input, no bling blingy audio stuff > please ;-) Once again the PG amps have built in xovers that are variable and provide many different configurations. Audio Control still makes some sweet stuff too. Good luck! Tony  SignatureWhat's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact Tony, that was good stuff man. Thanks for all the tips. As far as the eclipse goes I didnt see any information on da converters while skimming their site. I would like to find something with very nice da converters. The single bit jvcs were always pretty good and then if you wanted to take that step up to God level you could always get a Clarion DRX-9255. I would like something like this or a mcintosh head. I just think the mcintoch head would look plain stupid in an rsx. I will definitly check out diamond audio for components. BTW, i have always like quarts mid drivers, just never ever cared for their tweets. I always thought their little soft dome budget tweet was a lot better than their 3/4 tweet. If you have ever heard a pair of sonus faber home speaks they have a very warm seductive sound. I need something like that for my car with a tad more edge to cut through the road noise. As for subs, i have always had a thing for big bass, until i bought my miata. I tend to not crank up the stereo much these days after having been weened from my big sub setups. One thing I am concerned about is weight. I dont want much. Therefore keeping the sub down in size along with the magnent on the sub is a concern. I think if i properly install good front components and maybe a 6 3/4 to 7 in the rear panels i will only need a sub for the very lowest of octaves. If i could build a ported enclosure that was tuned down around 35hz that would pretty much be perfect for me. I will definitly check out the PG amps too man. Im looking for quality here , quality caps, quality coils, quality boards, quality craftmanship. BTW, if you dig bling bling thats your game and i respect that. I just dont like it, my friends dont like it, and it looks very fast and furious which i am not. I have more respect for a speaker/amp/whatever company that puts the money you spend into r&d, materials, and construction rather than what can we package that will be decent and then chrome/gold plate, add neon too, etc. Just my .02 The single bit jvcs were always pretty > good and then if you wanted to take that step up to God level you > could always get a Clarion DRX-9255. I would like something like this > or a mcintosh head. I just think the mcintoch head would look plain > stupid in an rsx. You can find some used good quality 9255s on eBay. I think Clarion also recently brought it back into production again. If you're seriously considering something of this magnitude, then don't forget Sony's CDX-C90 or a Nakamichi CD-700, and I've heard nothing but good things about Denon's Z1 (I hope that's the right model number....I'm really tired right now). Denon even made a deck for Rockford Fosgate that's supposed to really kick a.s and it's not too expensive. I bought a used C90 along with two CD changers and a digital EQ (none of which I ever actually used except for the C90 itself) for $800 on eBay last year. Very few people I've talked to have the McIntosh. Is it the looks? I'm not sure. Tony SignatureWhat's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact > Tony, that was good stuff man. Thanks for all the tips. > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > then chrome/gold plate, add neon too, etc. > Just my .02 I would look into Clarion DXZ835MP from www.thezeb.com reputable site - great price for a 24 bit da head unit. Has sub out w level controllable from the hu. I would go with passive crossovers - whether it be part of a component set of if you piece together components. There are some great deals out there from the car audio message boards (i.e. www.elitecaraudio.com or others ) - some guys change gear monthly - so there are always mint condition speakers for 30-40% of retail. I recently purchased a set of Phoenix Gold Ti 6 Elite components - msrp 900 - got them 300 - mint in box. I've recently seen a lot of CDT comp sets also. amp -> lots of choices , PG Titanium are great as mentioned. I would suggest going to the message forum sites and researching there. also try www.caraudioforum.com > OK, The last time I did a system was in 94 when i had my quart > components in the front of a 94 civic with 4 mtx 10" in a bandpass box [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > I would appreciate everyone's input, no bling blingy audio stuff > please ;-) So im just curious, as I see a/d/s mentioned a lot in older post, what are the current top of the crop car audio amps for sound quality and dynamic headroom? > So im just curious, as I see a/d/s mentioned a lot in older post, what > are the current top of the crop car audio amps for sound quality and > dynamic headroom? Nowadays, every company I'm aware of makes amplifiers that provide perfect sound quality (when you're not driving them into saturation), and the vast majority of companies are manufacturing certain amps in their lines to give you a tremendous amount of headroom. Yes, but I guess I don't like the fact that a lot of the amps are manufactured in places like china, etc. I always liked the Japan made old alpines and the American made sq amps. The components in newer amps like the ppi pcx for example generally suck. I have been checking out elitecaraudio.com or whatever that site is a LOT the last few days. They have turned me onto a lot of sweet amps. Some of the amps I have been looking at are brax, tru ( which I don't know a lot about, I don't feel the site provides a lot of info on what makes amp a better than amp b ) , sinfoni ( beautiful amps, awesome construction quality ) and DLS, which is offering me a smokin deal on their 3 channel CA series. I would love to have a newer Orion for example but I am having a hard time determining what changes were made to design when DEI took over vs. before, how the sq of the amp has changed as a result etc. As a result I think I might need to look at this small boutique amp companies or track down " classics ". > Yes, but I guess I don't like the fact that a lot of the amps are > manufactured in places like china, etc. I always liked the Japan made > old alpines and the American made sq amps. Most of these are still made in places like china or use chinese or taiwanese parts. I think the design team is more important though anyway. > The components in newer > amps like the ppi pcx for example generally suck. I have been checking [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ) and DLS, which is offering me a smokin deal on their 3 channel CA > series. You can get Helix amps, for example, which are half the price of Brax but are still designed by audiotec-fischer. > I would love to have a newer Orion for example but I am having a hard > time determining what changes were made to design when DEI took over > vs. before, how the sq of the amp has changed as a result etc. As a > result I think I might need to look at this small boutique amp > companies or track down " classics ". This has been addressed in here before. Do a google groups search for Orion with the author John Durbin, who is a regular in this newsgroup and an employee of DEI. The best thing about John is that he knows what he's talking about and doesn't BS, so you can take his descriptions about what's been done with Orion as truth. Orion, PPI, ADS, are famous brands which represented true American made quality. These Names now are file cabinet property of DEI, the snake alarm people. You won't find any difference in the boards inside these amps now. What was lost was the sonic signatures and durability of each of the brands. Earthquake is one of the old brands still pumping out their stuff. They are in the middle of the Silicon Valley. www.earthquakesound.com . P. > Yes, but I guess I don't like the fact that a lot of the amps are > manufactured in places like china, etc. I always liked the Japan made [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > result I think I might need to look at this small boutique amp > companies or track down " classics ". > Orion, PPI, ADS, are famous brands which represented true American made > quality. These Names now are file cabinet property of DEI, the snake alarm > people. You won't find any difference in the boards inside these amps now. > What was lost was the sonic signatures and durability of each of the brands. > Earthquake is one of the old brands still pumping out their stuff. They are > in the middle of the Silicon Valley. www.earthquakesound.com . P. Do I have to be the 100th person in this newsgroup to point out that you're full of sh.t, or is it common knowledge by now? All I see is post of people that are ticked off at DEI. Do they really suck that bad? Did they overhall the components of the amps to mimic other amps so they can save money across the board? Is orion still made in the US? BTW, what is the deal with RF amps? I see new " punch " amps on ebay VERY cheap , like 70 bux buy it now. Are they fake? Or is punch crap now? I had told DLS I would take one of theirs but geez. Ill compromise if the punch amps dont suck and i can get two for less than 2 bills. BTW< the post about the brax and helix, was that a positive comment on the helix? I couldnt tell what context it was in. And theaudiophile is offering me a helix at a pretty good price. I think I would feel real good about having one of those. Thats the type of amp I could keep for a long long time. I just dont want to drop the better part of eight bills. > All I see is post of people that are ticked off at DEI. Do they really > suck that bad? Did they overhall the components of the amps to mimic > other amps so they can save money across the board? Is orion still > made in the US? There has been no evidence provided that they're doing any of these things. In fact, I think they kept the a/d/s/ line intact since the "hostile takeover". My take is that people are wary of any company that buys out another, because more often than not they turn companies with good products into crap. Directed puts out good product in their own lines, so there's no reason to believe they would buy out ADSTech so that they could turn the product into crap. It just doesn't make sense. > BTW, what is the deal with RF amps? I see new " punch " amps on ebay > VERY cheap , like 70 bux buy it now. Are they fake? Or is punch crap > now? It's not crap at all. Buy selling your product at Best Buy is the kiss of death to most so-called "audiophiles". From what I understand, very little has changed inside RF amps in recent years. That's not to say they're the same as what they were 10 years ago, but I don't think they went from good to crap the moment they signed on with Best Buy. > I had told DLS I would take one of theirs but geez. Ill compromise if > the punch amps dont suck and i can get two for less than 2 bills. > > BTW< the post about the brax and helix, was that a positive comment on > the helix? I couldnt tell what context it was in. Yeah it was a positive comment. My point was that there's usually a big price difference between the two brands, but if your criteria was based primarily on who designed them, then you'd be looking at the same company. > And theaudiophile is offering me a helix at a pretty good price. I > think I would feel real good about having one of those. Thats the type > of amp I could keep for a long long time. I just dont want to drop the > better part of eight bills. Peter's a good guy, but like everyone in the industry he has his biases. He is, after all, the US distributor for Brax and Helix. You're going to have to make the determination of whether or not there's a difference between the Helix amp and other less expensive amps. That's really overstated... for the most part dealers and consumers have been supportive of our efforts to keep all three of the brands alive. Our customer service survey results are again up over last year, and higher than most in the 12V business. As far as product, Orion was completely relaunched in 2003 following the design direction that had been devised prior to our acquisition, likewise with the subwoofer and speaker lines for PPI. PPI amps were relaunched this year as were the a/d/s/ component speaker models (they start shipping this month, finally!) ... We have yet to clone ANY of this stuff, including our Directed Audio and entry level Xtreme products, everything is different and stands on its own merits. I have not figured out why people want to suspect the worst about us or our intentions for product development but I would guess it's a typical cynical reaction and just another common element of human nature. JD >All I see is post of people that are ticked off at DEI. Do they really >suck that bad? Did they overhall the components of the amps to mimic [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >better part of eight bills. > listen to as many components as you can find (dynaudio and focal if price is less of an issue; diamond audio and jl "xr" series, if price is more of an issue). for a head unit, i would suggest one with built in time alignment (alpine and pioneer have some nice ones) if you are going to use the stock mounting locations (to get a true image). subs? depends on how much bass you need... jps -- jpswanberg i'm not car audio guru like some of the guys on here but i was in similar situation as you.i used to be reallyinto car audio way back i the day (timeframe: when kicker speakers had "kicker" in a gol outline!) and recently i decided i wanted a little bump. I picked up UsAcoustics amp (after a few people said they were nice for the $) an an infiniti perfect 12. Its not the loudest by any means but i'm mor then happy. So you might want to look at USAcoustics, they're prett cheap (like $150 for 250x2 or 450x1) come with a 3 year warranty, ma in the US (i think), and put out their rated power (IMO). Just my $.0 - smokedoutv > OK, The last time I did a system was in 94 when i had my quart > components in the front of a 94 civic with 4 mtx 10" in a bandpass box [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > I would appreciate everyone's input, no bling blingy audio stuff > please ;-) HU - Anything that doesn't have Dolphins jumping on the face plate, a high output voltage (2 volts min 4 volts better), and a low output impedance(shoot for about 100 ohms.)(Lower is better) Amps - MTX - Amplifiers are supposed to do a couple of things #1 make the signal larger, #2 not add noise,(like turn on or off pops), #3 be reliable. MTX does that better than anyone. Woofer - Sealed enclosure, JL Audio woofer, I like W3V2 versions because they are not real expensive and they sound great. JL brought a new level of woofer design to the market when they started looking at how a woofer reacts under high signal levels instead of just low signal levels like everyone in the industry. Their engineering is second to none. Seperates - New JL's in the kick panels. Minimize path lengths, which is really easy in an RSX or Accord by just placing the speakers in the kicks. BTY the new JL's seps use Kurt Mueller cones from germany. It doesnt get any better than that. Signal processing - Still Audio Control. You can use the crossovers built into the amplifier, Variable freq, steep slope, first rate. Spend your bucks on Audio Controls new digital 2 channel EQ. > HU - Anything that doesn't have Dolphins jumping on the face plate, a > high output voltage (2 volts min 4 volts better), and a low output > impedance(shoot for about 100 ohms.)(Lower is better) Output impedance is a virtually worthless spec. The distribution isn't so wide that it makes any difference. Most amp input impedances are on the order of 10k ohms or so, so as long as you're anywhere in the hundreds or even the low thousands in terms of HU output impedance, it won't make any difference at all. > Amps - MTX - Amplifiers are supposed to do a couple of things #1 make > the signal larger, #2 not add noise,(like turn on or off pops), #3 be > reliable. MTX does that better than anyone. MTX does a good job of that, as does literally hundreds of other manufacturers. Well, I was sold on the DLS amps but I got a really good deal on a pair of new in the box fosgates from a few years ago, a punch 55.2 and punch 75.2 . I would like the clarion DRZ9255 , that is an awesome head unit. I doubt very seriously I will drop the coin on it. Components, those new JL's would be nice. Are you reffering to the 600 dollar ones? I would like to try some cliff designs / cdt stuff. Not sure. I dont know if I want to spend over 300 dollars, as I am trying to keep this on a budget. Subs, JL, yea. I dont think it gets much better. I was going to use a 6.5 " jl sub ( 6w0 i think ) that I have over here. It would be a great upgrade to the crap bose 5 incher or whatever it is. Now my gf wants a little low end fill so im going to build a basic ported box for her and see how it works out. Depending if I like it ill either get another or go for a 10 " JL sub. Lastly, as for signal processing, audio control still seems to the way, your message confirms that. I dont know about the digital eq but Ill see. I was thinking of using something a bit more simple to just dial out any peaks. Thanks again for all the help guys. > > HU - Anything that doesn't have Dolphins jumping on the face plate, a > > high output voltage (2 volts min 4 volts better), and a low output [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >>> >>> "MZ" I have to disagree with you on that "output impedance is a virtually worthless spec". Around 1990 the Alpine 7909 broke new ground in the competition world by providing 4.2 volts of clean output and an output impedance of 690 ohms. That is why they are still sought after today.If you had one in your car you had a huge advantage.You had a lot more usable dynamic range than your competitors. A large signal,low impedance source is a requirement to build a really good sounding system. Quality manufacturers have learned this and are focused on this issue improving all of the time. My new eclipse unit provides a 6 volt output and an output impedance of 80 ohms. > > Amps - MTX - Amplifiers are supposed to do a couple of things #1 make > > the signal larger, #2 not add noise,(like turn on or off pops), #3 be > > reliable. MTX does that better than anyone. > > MTX does a good job of that, as does literally hundreds of other > manufacturers. > > Output impedance is a virtually worthless spec. The distribution isn't so > > wide that it makes any difference. Most amp input impedances are on the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > focused on this issue improving all of the time. My new eclipse unit > provides a 6 volt output and an output impedance of 80 ohms. Two questions: 1) How does your dynamic range in a car improve with lower output impedance? 2) What does a high voltage output provide that a low voltage output doesn't? I'll answer #2 for you. It provides a lower (electrical) noise floor (something that's absolutely useless in a car, for a number of reasons). Anyway, I just disagree with your argument. My contention can be demonstrated by treating the circuit as a voltage divider (which is what it is). Assume 2 head units, one with a 50 ohm output impedance and another with a 1000 ohm output impedance. Assume an amplifier input impedance of 10k ohms (typical). The difference in total output between the two units would then be 0.03 dB. This is on the order of 1/30th of a single volume click. In other words, it just doesn't matter. MZ Wrote: > > > Output impedance is a virtually worthless spec. The distributio > isn't [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > In other words, it just doesn't matter. I completely disagree with the statement. Last year in a competition m cousin posted a 143 flat scale with an old pioneer deck which was mayb 2 volts. For the next competition I let him use my alpine with 4 vol preouts, and the numbers jumped dramatically to a 147. That's a hug difference in SPL. I about guarantee the number would be higher ye with the eclipse 8 volt -- memphi > I completely disagree with the statement. Last year in a competition my > cousin posted a 143 flat scale with an old pioneer deck which was maybe > 2 volts. For the next competition I let him use my alpine with 4 volt > preouts, and the numbers jumped dramatically to a 147. That's a huge > difference in SPL. I about guarantee the number would be higher yet > with the eclipse 8 volt. Explain to me how one achieves more power output with a higher voltage preout. An amplifier can deliver only a certain amount of power, and this is dictated by the characteristics of the amplifier itself (eg. rail voltage, output Z of the amp, etc), and not the level of the input signal. thats the kinda thing a dumb stereo salesman would say...maybe someone told him that in a stereo store and he believes it.... ha ha ha > > I completely disagree with the statement. Last year in a competition my > > cousin posted a 143 flat scale with an old pioneer deck which was maybe [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > is dictated by the characteristics of the amplifier itself (eg. rail > voltage, output Z of the amp, etc), and not the level of the input signal. |
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