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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Car Audio / June 2004Hi-MD: the perfect car stereo format?
To increase capacity without changing discs, I was thinking of replacing my MD deck with a MP3/WMA car CD player (or adding a MP3/WMA CD changer)...until I saw this: http://www.sony.net/Products/Hi-MD/ * 1GB discs hold almost 8 hours of music with ATRAC3plus @256kbps (HQ) * Small size and easily handling vs. awkward CD juggling on the road * Easily rewritable (a million times like the old MDs?) * Dust-jacket protection (critical in a car, I think) * Better physical shock resistance than larger CDs with greater flex * Allows for uncompressed PCM audio if desired, and more of it than a CD-R * Drag & drop music transfer on a PC (can also be used for generic storage) I hope they make some car decks or changers soon. The CD-R format will surely remain cheaper, but money isn't everything. Look how much we spend on amps and speakers. I want something in a car that can be handled quickly, stores in a small space, resists physical damage and allows hours of playback without fumbling for another disc. I don't care if it never gets popular among people who are stuck on other formats, just bring it on and give it a reasonable price! JT Will Hi-MD finally accept .mp3 ? And how much for 1 blank disc ? tx > Will Hi-MD finally accept .mp3 ? And how much for 1 blank disc ? > > tx yeah media cost is usually what steers people away from MD. it is an awesome format but still no MP3 - kinda sucks. 1Gb of MP3s is a couple albums. im still happy with my Creative Labs Zen NX...it is cheaper compared to CD-R and MD in the long run. If I were to burn 20GB of MP3 onto CDs I would have a hell of a time trying shuffle through all of them trying to play them all through a CD player. I still think nothing beats the aux-in route and ipod or other portable media player. you have music wherever you go. isnt that what it is all about?? EFFENDI > > Will Hi-MD finally accept .mp3 ? And how much for 1 blank disc ? > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > EFFENDI Why are there many formats available now ? It is not that one format is better than the other (some formats maybe better but normal ears can't hear them) but because THEY HAVE DIFEERENT USES OR THE USERS HAVE Different requirements. The best media for you is the one that is most suitable for your use. I record in many places and I do not want to risk losing my 8000+ songs collection on a HD media like Ipod in case i drop the thing. So I bought two MD's : a Sony to record and a Sharp to play. But I would still want to buy someday an HD device like Ipod for less vigorous applications and once they solved some technical issues like battery life and others. My two cents. oogle B. I dont like the idea of compressing an already compress file. This is kind of stupid. What the hell Sony was thinking ? So I guess Ill need 2 copy of the same song on my hard drive because Hi-MD doesnt support .mp3 ! Really I dont understand this one. If all the players available on the market only the Mini Disc has this feature ! Ill gor for a Nomad Zen NX xtr. And btw, the Nomad will be the backup of what I have on my hard drive. So who care if I drop the Nomad or if I have a hd crash. Chuck > I dont like the idea of compressing an already compress file. This is kind > of stupid. What the hell Sony was thinking ? I've been dubbing MP3s digitally in real time to MD for years and the sound quality doesn't seem to deteriorate any more than it does from CD to MD (which is basically nil). The degree of 2nd generation loss in such digital copies seems to be more theoretical than real. ATRAC has always sounded very transparent to me. Cleaner than even a 320k MP3. > So I guess Ill need 2 copy of the same song on my hard drive because Hi-MD > doesnt support .mp3 ! Some people think Hi-MD may be hackable to play MP3s directly, but MP3 itself is a dated, relatively inefficient compression format and I won't miss it. JT > > Will Hi-MD finally accept .mp3 ? And how much for 1 blank disc ? > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > awesome format but still no MP3 - kinda sucks. > 1Gb of MP3s is a couple albums. Only a couple? I'd check your math. A 1GB Hi-MD (7h55m) will allow for 8 to 12 typical albums in ATRAC3plus 256kbps mode, which should be cleaner sounding than even the best MP3s. I assume it will be gapless too; another shortcoming of MP3. I also assume it will allow after-the-fact editing of tracks and all the other gizmos that make MD stand out. The handling ease and toughness of the discs can't be ignored either. JT >>>Will Hi-MD finally accept .mp3 ? And how much for 1 blank disc ? >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > JT JT: I was talking about MP3 format in terms of its filesize, not ATRAC3. 1GB = A few 192kbps MP3 albums (an album is roughyl 100MB) 10 albums per 1GB on a 20-30GB hard-drive based MP3 player is an awful lot more portable than carrying 20 HI-MD discs that are undoubtedly going to be very pricey at introduction, not to mention the player cost itself as well as expensive optical cables required (which requires expensive optical-compatible audio gear) to connect. If you already have all of that then cool. Personally, I have not heard ATRAC or ATRAC+ so I cant say which sounds better. Please provide me with resources on comparisons of the formats. I find that sound quality is HIGHLY subjective from user-to-user. And please expand on what 'gizmos' you are talking about. My Nomad Zen NX allows for time-shifting playback, reverb adjustment, spatialization, graphical EQ, sorting of artist, album, or genre...the list goes on. As far as toughness, well a solid state MP3 player or even a hard-drive based player is more solid of a format than MD. And it is equally portable and more compatible. Oh yes and much much cheaper on a quantity of music storage basis. All I'm saying, MP3 works for me. Im not bashing any format or saying anything is better than the other. In fact I think that Hi-MD is step in the right direction, for those that use/prefer the MD format. I totally agree with Oogle B.s post that media format choice is dependant upon the users needs and requirements. So check the math on that...... EFFENDI >Personally, I have not heard ATRAC or ATRAC+ so I cant >say which sounds better. Please provide me with resources on comparisons http://www.sony.net/Products/ATRAC3/tech/lab/index.html These are lab tests conducted in Germany and England. The test parameters/conditions are listed along with the results. I've always found ATRAC3 to be fairly good, and usually preferable to MP3. With the advent of AAC and FLAC (WMA Lossless never caught on to a great degree it seems, nor did MP3 PRO), which are lossless, it may be showing it's age a bit though. However, Apple's iPod is the only portable I know of supporting AAC and none that I've seen have FLAC support. ATRAC+ should be quite good, but I havn't done a test yet myself. I bought my MD player/recorder when portable MP3 players had much less storage and cost much more as per the price:memory ratio (like when Diamond's 128Mb Rio was selling for $300 and larger ones were closer to $500). I've been very happy, albeit the media is somewhat expensive, and I suppose I've probably spent on media the difference between what my player cost and what a larger MP3 unit would've cost me. The upside is that again, I've found the ATRAC recordings on my MD's to be generally superior to MP3s and the newer lossless formats are sparsly compatible. >I find that sound quality is HIGHLY subjective from >user-to-user. This is largly true when comparing speakers, but when static test parameters are presented in regards to the equipment and listening environment, many/most people can tell the difference between MP3s and ATRACs, at least based on my own sampling and the test results presented in the above link. ATRAC is near-lossless and would've developed a lot more of MD had caught on and allowed equipment/media prices to drop. I remember listening to a studio-published copy of Pink Floyd's "The Division Bell" on MD and being blown away. My personal unit has been used mainly to replay my CD collection, which I've transfered (for the most part) to MD. I'll also add that there is a great deal of sonic difference between the CD to MD recordings I made using my portable recorder (usually connected via optical to a Sony D-EJ01 discman) and CD to MD transfers made using a Sony 333ES home-MD component. I've been told that Denon's now-dead MD100 home component was quite good as well. Sony's current offering in the U.S. (they're now down to one model here) isn't nearly as good, it doesn't have the Type-R circuit or the 20-Bit DAC. >>>>Will Hi-MD finally accept .mp3 ? And how much for 1 blank disc ? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > EFFENDI Got to disagree that a HDD based player is "more solid" than MD I've dropped my Sony MZ-R700 several times (onto hard surfaces) and it's survived. Could you really drop an iPod several times and it still play? BillL >>>>>Will Hi-MD finally accept .mp3 ? And how much for 1 blank disc ? >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > BillL a resounding YES!! ive dropped my Nomad Zen NX about 400 times and its still ticking, dents, scratches and all. I dont know about the MD players... its hard to drop an MP3 compared to dropping a physical MD. EFFENDI 400 times ? > 400 times ? well maybe not that much. a few dozen at least though...LOL EFFENDI so sony is trying to force the md on us again? please; i can't wait fo the latest edition of Beta to be introduced... jp - jpswanber >so sony is trying to force the md on us again? please; i can't wait for >the latest edition of Beta to be introduced... The ATRAC3 compression format Sony created for MD is actually superior to MP3, based on my own personal experiences and listening tests I've seen. Sony's initial failure with MD was largely the result of improper advertising (or lack of it), non-existant in-store support for the pre-recorded media and a nearly complete lack of pre-recorded content. This is similar on the marketing stupidity scale to Sony's approach with Beta - they refused to license out the technology to other manufacturers while JVC was more than happy to let other companies make VHS equipment. HI-MD is said to be quite a good format, but ultimately Sony's inability to properly market the hardware and the ever-increasing presence of HDD based MP3 players will probably kill it. It's only too bad, I've got a Sony 555ES home MD deck with their "Type R" circuitry that makes very good sounding CD dubs, and between it and my portable player, I've been able to extract quite a bit of enjoyment from the format. But I'm on the verge of buying a HDD based MP3 player (probably an iPod) and so even my pleasent experiences in the past with MD are unlikely to make me want to buy into the new version. In addition, Sony is the only company left supporting MD for Car Audio use, but Alpine, Pioneer, Kenwood, Eclipse and even Sony are all making HDD equipped decks for car use. Although, I believe that Sony and Eclipse's units both use the ATRAC3 format rather than MP3. I'm just waiting for Apple to jump in and make something for the car that'll play MP3s in addition to AAC and Apple Lossless rips, without the need to connect an iPod via AUX. inputs. > >so sony is trying to force the md on us again? please; i can't wait for > >the latest edition of Beta to be introduced... > > The ATRAC3 compression format Sony created for MD is actually superior to MP3, based on my own personal experiences and listening tests I've seen. Sony's > initial failure with MD was largely the result of improper advertising (or lack > of it), non-existant in-store support for the pre-recorded media and a nearly > complete lack of pre-recorded content. This is similar on the marketing > stupidity scale to Sony's approach with Beta - they refused to license out the > technology to other manufacturers while JVC was more than happy to let other > companies make VHS equipment. HI-MD is said to be quite a good format, but ultimately Sony's inability to properly market the hardware and the > ever-increasing presence of HDD based MP3 players will probably kill it. It's > only too bad, I've got a Sony 555ES home MD deck with their "Type R" circuitry that makes very good sounding CD dubs, and between it and my portable player, I've been able to extract quite a bit of enjoyment from the format. But I'm on the verge of buying a HDD based MP3 player (probably an iPod) and so even my pleasent experiences in the past with MD are unlikely to make me want to buy into the new version. In addition, Sony is the only company left supporting MD for Car Audio use, but Alpine, Pioneer, Kenwood, Eclipse and even Sony are all making HDD equipped decks for car use. Although, I believe that Sony and Eclipse's units both use the ATRAC3 format rather than MP3. I'm just waiting for Apple to jump in and make something for the car that'll play MP3s in addition to AAC and Apple Lossless rips, without the need to connect an iPod via AUX. inputs. ATRAC3 is a better codec than mp3 but like you stated it's less supported, I think AAC is fine when it come to compromise of sound vs. space. another good one is ogg. but wma is also making in roads so I think that most manuf. will support AAC, MP3 &, WMA, before it jumps back to MD. >I >think AAC is fine when it come to compromise of sound vs. space. another >good one is ogg. but wma is also making in road .WMA is lossy and useless for anyone with a sensitive ear who's as picky as I am. The only reason it's made in-roads anywhere is because of the fiancial support Microsoft is able to throw at the format. Of course there's a newer "lossless" codec built into Windows Media Player but I find AAC to be very close in sound quality while needing less space and for some reason, rips made using Apple's lossless MPEG-4 based codec sound better to me than lossless .WMA files do. Many of Pioneer's decks will decode .WMA files from CD, but AFAIK none of the in-car HDD based players will take it. AAC is a superior format, no surpirse considering Dolby Labs had a hand in it's development. >so I think that most >manuf. will support AAC, MP3 &, WMA, before it jumps back to MD The industry at large never excepted MD to begin with so there's really nothing to jump back to. If there were suddenly wide-spread industry support for MD, it'd be the first time. Blaupunkt, Eclipse and Nakamichi made MD capable decks in limited number for a short period of time. Eclipse dropped theirs after one model year, Blaupunkt dropped theirs after 2 and Nakamichi now only makes their unit for Europe, where MD has a slightly larger following. |
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