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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Car Audio / June 2004why dose everyone hate Pyramid?
I dont see why everyone out there hates Pyramid. i own a pyramid amp and sub and speekers and they all sound great. i bet 99% of the people out there who bash pyramids porducs by saying there crap, havnt ever owned, seen or head a pyramid product. one argument is that their amps output wattage is inflated. for one they list all of their wattage in peak output so of course it will be alot higher than the rms value. for example i own a 1000 watt peak amp, and it has a 30 amp fuse so the rms wattage can be calculated pretty easliy. im going off of a formula that ive seen on many car audio sites for calculating the rms. take the number from the fuse (my case its 30) and multiply it by half of the voltage your battery puts out (ill go with 13 votls) so 30x6.5=195 watts rms. this isnt amazing but 195 rms wattage going into one 12 inch sub is loud enough to be heard giong down the street. anyways everyone might be saying now, that they want more so there gona go pay 400 bucks for some super price inflated amp. well consider this i only payed 62 bucks for my amp. pretty good deal i would say. so i get about 3.1 rms wats for every dollar i spent and 16.1 peak wats pre dollar. how much do you get?? ok second arguement. people say they pay more for sound quality, ok well consider this. my friend owns an audiobahn amp that puts out about 400 rms, anyways one day we went to a prking lot and backed out cars up tail to tail, and hooked my amp to his subs and shi amp to my subs and compared how thay sounded, and ya know what, i wasnt able to notice any diffrence in the sound "quality" and neither was he. and oh ya one more thing just because someones product costs a ton dosnt necessarily mean that its better. all car audio is marked up a million percent. the freind who has the audiobahn amp bought it from an ebay seller.for 195 bucs brand new. in stores the amp isnt suposed to sell for any less than 400 something dollars. and since the seller on ebay was making a profit on the amp and audiobahn was also making a profit on the amp how much do you really think it cost to make. anyways thers my two cents. pyramid makes good quality products. that sond and work great. dont listen to everyone else out there who has never even owned one and says there crap. First of all your caluclation is retarded.... so what youre saying is if i put in a larger fuse ill get more power... which is not true at all.. It is true that current multiplied by voltage gives you power... however youre calculating DC power... not RMS you should look around for better formulas if you want to do caluclations. Also... the 13V u used is not constant... on a large bass hit that bvoltage may go down to 7 - 10 volts... so now the power has reduced has it not? Im not responding saying that perymid products are junk... just your formula is... By the way companies that only show peak power are trying to lure people who have no clue... RMS power is the nuber to be looking at and people dont realize this. My 2 cents... kenny > I dont see why everyone out there hates Pyramid. i own a pyramid amp > and sub and speekers and they all sound great. i bet 99% of the people [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > listen to everyone else out there who has never even owned one and > says there crap. > First of all your caluclation is retarded.... so what youre saying is if i > put in a larger fuse ill get more power... which is not true at all.. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > however youre calculating DC power... not RMS you should look around for > better formulas if you want to do caluclations. I agree that the fuse calculation method is flawed. But keep in mind that fuses ALSO care only about RMS, so his calculation in that respect is correct. In other words, a fuse rated at 30A can take transients of higher current. > Also... the 13V u used is not constant... on a large bass hit that > bvoltage may go down to 7 - 10 volts... so now the power has reduced has it > not? I'm afraid this isn't true. Your voltage will never drop that low. If it did, your audio system would shut off and your car would probably stall. I then dare you to measure the voltage right at the amp when you are playing a current drawing song (lots of bass) The voltage does drop that low because the wires to the amp have resistance.. the less resistance in those wires the less voltage drop across them therefore a better sounding system. Maybe it wont go to 10V but it goes less then 12 i am sure Its ohms law it has to... thats why people put huge 1 F caps right near the amp Ken > > First of all your caluclation is retarded.... so what youre saying is if > i [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I'm afraid this isn't true. Your voltage will never drop that low. If it > did, your audio system would shut off and your car would probably stall. > I then dare you to measure the voltage right at the amp when you are playing > a current drawing song (lots of bass) > The voltage does drop that low because the wires to the amp have > resistance.. the less resistance in those wires the less voltage drop > across them therefore a better sounding system. The voltage CAN drop when you play loud music, the voltage can drop not only because the amp wire may be too thin (usually folks run large wires so this isnt usually the real problem) and also because the cars battery is not of sufficient capacity to keep up or because the cars alternator cant keep up. > Its ohms law it has to... Its more than ohms law, it could be your battery or alternator > thats why people put huge 1 F caps right near > the amp A cap may not help much if the batttery or alternator is not capable of keeping up I been installling for a long time and Im convinced Caps cost more than they actually help a system in many cases... Eddie Runner > I then dare you to measure the voltage right at the amp when you are playing > a current drawing song (lots of bass) I've done it. > The voltage does drop that low because the wires to the amp have > resistance.. the less resistance in those wires the less voltage drop > across them therefore a better sounding system. V = IR. If your voltage is dropping that low, then you must be using 20 gauge wire or your amps are drawing a thousand Amps. I doubt either of those are the case. > Maybe it wont go to 10V but it goes less then 12 i am sure How much lower? In the most extreme cases, it may dip slightly below 12, depending on how stout your battery is. Keep in mind also that most remote turn on circuits inside the amplifier cut out in the 10v area (or even higher for some amps). And these are fast-acting op amp circuits, so even if they dip to "7-10v" for even a millisecond the amp will shut off. > Its ohms law it has to... thats why people put huge 1 F caps right near > the amp People put huge 1F caps right near their amps because they're gullible. > I then dare you to measure the voltage right at the amp when you are playing > a current drawing song (lots of bass) Try owning a 66 chrysler. When the base hits after starting the car the audio system shuts off due (1) to the mechanical voltage regulator, and (2) that audio equipment, high or low end, needs around 14 volts to function effectively and the charging system has not fully recovered from the current draw associated with starting the car. > The voltage does drop that low because the wires to the amp have > resistance.. the less resistance in those wires the less voltage drop > across them therefore a better sounding system. > > Maybe it wont go to 10V but it goes less then 12 i am sure Maybe on a small motorcycle with a 1,000,000 watt amp and a 30 inch woofer, or my son's power wheels (only because of the 6 volt battery). > Its ohms law it has to... thats why people put huge 1 F caps right near > the amp Caps are BS > Ken > > > First of all your caluclation is retarded.... so what youre saying is [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > I'm afraid this isn't true. Your voltage will never drop that low. If it > > did, your audio system would shut off and your car would probably stall. I would like everybody to explain to me why caps are BS.... i am an electrical engineer... I know what a cap does and if you think these caps cannot help you then you are mistaken. Ill give you that if the car is wired right (large power wires) to the amp then a cap is not needed. When resistance builds up in the wire to the amp or the terminal on the amp cannot accept your 4 guage wire so you strip half the copper off... then guess what your resistance just went up, also resistance goes up when running cause the wires warm up.. A good system voltage on a car will be well over 13.5V while running Batteries and altinators are not made to handle the large current draws of an amplifier (most peak current draw of well over 50A) guess what.. if your wire is an ohm you lost 50 volts.. however most wires are not 1 ohm but fractions of an ohm.. Dont tell me that voltage doesnt drop across a wire because I know it does. try this site for understanding more about wire http://www.bnoack.com/index.html?http&&&www.bnoack.com/data/wire-resistance.html with 4 Guage wire Which is HUGE HUGE you will drop 200mV given you used 10 ft of 4 guage now make that 8 guage you drop .335V This is at 70 degress F most likely... wire gets derated substaintially with heat.... next time youre blasting your rap check and see what the temperature of the wire is... you shouldnt be surprized to find out that youre loosing .5 - 1V pretty easily You said Caps are junk? You know what a cap is? Its a small version of the batttery under your hood... except your battery can be considered many Farads as a cap that is very expensive may be 1 or 2 farads. Locating a cap right next to the Amp will help in providing current to the amp if it needs it (a cap's voltage cannot cahge instontainusly (spelling) it is the properity of a cap) therefore it will hold its voltage through those large current drawing bass hits. Anyway before you try to make me look like an idiot do some research The reason your audio equipemnt needs 14 volts to function is because of the very voltage drop we speak of. If you had a rock solid supply of 12 V to the amp you would not hav a problem running at 12V Ken > > I then dare you to measure the voltage right at the amp when you are > playing [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > it > > > did, your audio system would shut off and your car would probably stall. > I would like everybody to explain to me why caps are BS.... i am an > electrical engineer... I know what a cap does and if you think these caps > cannot help you then you are mistaken. With your engineering background, surely you can describe in detail how capacitors are of any use. > Ill give you that if the car is wired right (large power wires) to the amp > then a cap is not needed. > > When resistance builds up in the wire How does resistance "build up" in a wire? > to the amp or the terminal on the amp > cannot accept your 4 guage wire so you strip half the copper off... What would stripping half the copper off do that's detrimental? > then > guess what your resistance just went up, also resistance goes up when > running cause the wires warm up.. How warm do they get? > A good system voltage on a car will be well over 13.5V while running > > Batteries and altinators are not made to handle the large current draws of > an amplifier (most peak current draw of well over 50A) guess what.. if > your wire is an ohm you lost 50 volts.. That's why nobody ever uses one ohm wires. > however most wires are not 1 ohm > but fractions of an ohm.. > > Dont tell me that voltage doesnt drop across a wire because I know it does. > > try this site for understanding more about wire http://www.bnoack.com/index.html?http&&&www.bnoack.com/data/wire-resistance.html > with 4 Guage wire Which is HUGE HUGE you will drop 200mV given you used > 10 ft of 4 guage With how much current draw? Betcha the output impedance of your alternator is bigger than the impedance of the wire. > now make that 8 guage > > you drop .335V > > This is at 70 degress F most likely... wire gets derated substaintially > with heat.... Maybe if it's made of tungsten... > next time youre blasting your rap check and see what the > temperature of the wire is... you shouldnt be surprized to find out that > youre loosing .5 - 1V pretty easily That's typical. So how will that hurt anything? Are you going to suggest that such a drop will be audible? > You said Caps are junk? > > You know what a cap is? Its a small version of the batttery under your > hood... except your battery can be considered many Farads as a cap that is > very expensive may be 1 or 2 farads. A battery is not a capacitor, and as such, doesn't have an associated amount of capacitance. > Locating a cap right next to the Amp will help in providing current to the > amp if it needs it (a cap's voltage cannot cahge instontainusly (spelling) > it is the properity of a cap) So how do the capacitors inside the amplifier fare? > therefore it will hold its voltage through those large current drawing bass > hits. > > Anyway before you try to make me look like an idiot do some research I'm calling bullshit on your electrical engineer claim. > I would like everybody to explain to me why caps are BS.... i am an > electrical engineer... Isn't is amazing how everyone is an electrical engineer on the internet? I know what a cap does and if you think these caps > cannot help you then you are mistaken. Read a little further and you will prove that you do not. > When resistance builds up in the wire to the amp or the terminal on the amp > cannot accept your 4 guage wire so you strip half the copper off... then > guess what your resistance just went up, also resistance goes up when > running cause the wires warm up.. Resistance doesn't "build up". Stripping half of the unneeded copper away won't be detrimental. > You said Caps are junk? > > You know what a cap is? Its a small version of the batttery under your > hood... And there goes your EE claim. A small battery would be an example of a small version of the one under the hood. Not a cap. except your battery can be considered many Farads as a cap that is > very expensive may be 1 or 2 farads. > > Locating a cap right next to the Amp will help in providing current to the > amp if it needs it (a cap's voltage cannot cahge instontainusly (spelling) > it is the properity of a cap) It will "help" for an insignifigant amount of time. > therefore it will hold its voltage through those large current drawing bass > hits. It will only do any good for a brief second. An external cap is not effective with long current draws. > Anyway before you try to make me look like an idiot do some research Why don't you first. A cap is not a battery. The amplifier designers already designed the amp with enough capacitance. The voltage drop you speak of is usually insignifigant. If the voltage drops down to 7-10 volts then your amps would shut off. I think we could go on, but I think that's enough to debunk your claim of being an Electrical Engineer. Les Not an EE. My understanding of a capacitor is that it stores sufficient amounts of power to make up for momentary (short) periods when the current drops below the specifications for the circuit. I'm not an electrical engineer but I have completed an extensive course on recording engineering. Still, it was my buddy the PC tech who told me about capicitors. (Had to do with bulging capacitors on all brands of motherboards made in 2001-2002 becuse they all bought defective caps from a half-baked factory in China.)  SignatureTodd > My understanding of a capacitor is that it stores sufficient amounts of power to make up > for momentary (short) periods when the current drops below the specifications for the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with bulging capacitors on all brands of motherboards made in 2001-2002 becuse they all > bought defective caps from a half-baked factory in China.) Two things: 1) Capacitors don't store power. They store charge. The distinction is important because storing power implies that you can gain power output by installing a capacitor. This is misleading. 2) Voltage (not current) drops during large current draws. So what? The difference is below audibility. This can be demonstrated qualitatively and proven quantitatively using simple electrical theory. Most of this is explained in the FAQ. And some of it is even right. www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq > 1) Capacitors don't store power. They store charge. The distinction is > important because storing power implies that you can gain power output by > installing a capacitor. This is misleading. Even easier, you can't store power since power is the measure of produced effort. But you can store energy, to make power. Regardless if you need a cap then you have an underdesigned amp. Chad > My understanding of a capacitor is that it stores sufficient amounts of power to make up > for momentary (short) periods when the current drops below the specifications for the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with bulging capacitors on all brands of motherboards made in 2001-2002 becuse they all > bought defective caps from a half-baked factory in China.) I think I know which ones. actually if it's the ones I thought they underspec'd the temp rating and placed them REALLY close to the CPU, OOPS! Worse yet they were used in our radio automation system and I spent many o night replacing mother boards all while shoving CD's trying to keep my a.s on the air! Chad Ok thanks for the post.. i understand why people think caps are bs... i get it now... im not fimilar with the interior working of an amp.. for example i sure as heck didnt think they used +/- 90V to produce a sound... i am still sceptical on this point ... however... I do see now that caps wont help much, what will help is the correct sized wire run out to the amp. > > I would like everybody to explain to me why caps are BS.... i am an > > electrical engineer... > > Isn't is amazing how everyone is an electrical engineer on the internet? I really am one... just that my field of study was not specifically into car audio amplifiers... insted of knocking me why not explain why i am wrong and show me how to better myself.... > I know what a cap does and if you think these caps > > cannot help you then you are mistaken. > > Read a little further and you will prove that you do not. I now see that thanks... > > When resistance builds up in the wire to the amp or the terminal on the > amp [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Resistance doesn't "build up" Resistance does build up in a wire... masure the resistance at start +1 Ft of wire and you get X (very small resistance) as you move down the wire the resistance builds up because you keep adding resistance... get it now? I didnt explain that well enough the first time sorry... . Stripping half of the unneeded copper away> won't be detrimental. It sure as heck doesnt help,.,.., if i had 4 guage wire then removed the copper so that i get a piece of 18 guage coming out of a 4 guage wire... the 18 guage piece will get hot and go up in resistance... the 18 guage piece cannot carry the current that is needed to support the amp... people who run 4 guage wire then cut away the coper to make like 10 guage would have been better off just running 10 guage... they might get a little bit more current carraying capibility with the 4 guage to 10 guage.. but not for the price difference.... Remember electrons flow on the outside of a copper conductor, stranded wire is better then solid wire... > > You said Caps are junk? > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And there goes your EE claim. A small battery would be an example of a small > version of the one under the hood. Not a cap. Sorry i didnt explain the reson I said the battery was like a cap is because the voltagev on a battery cannot change insontainesoley... just like a cap. You can put another battery right next to the amp i suppose.. then you dont have to worry about the size of the wire going to the amp and battery from the alternator.. though the battery will lose its charge quickly if playing loudly... the alternator has to charge two batteries then... I suggest just doing it right with no cap and no battery.. I was just wondering before why caps are junk and you anwsered that (Caps are junk in some cases not all) For example you know you can make your car headlights last 100 times longer with the use of a cap? What damages headlights? the change in temperature... so add a cap and the temp wont change so fast on a head light. > except your battery can be considered many Farads as a cap that is > > very expensive may be 1 or 2 farads. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > It will only do any good for a brief second. An external cap is not > effective with long current draws. Agreed... but for the quick burst it can help > > Anyway before you try to make me look like an idiot do some research > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I think we could go on, but I think that's enough to debunk your claim of > being an Electrical Engineer. Claim or not I know what i am... my area of knoladge does not reside in car audio... I would like to learn more so please give my ignorance a chance, ill try to be more understanding in the future... I learned a lot so far not just from you but many of the others... Thanks... Ken An EE But college apparently means nothing but a piece of paper. > Les > Not an EE. > Ok thanks for the post.. i understand why people think caps are > bs... i get it now... im not fimilar with the interior working of an amp.. > for example i sure as heck didnt think they used +/- 90V to produce a > sound... i am still sceptical on this point ... however... I think Eddie said 90v, which would imply +/-45v which is typical for larger amps. > > Resistance doesn't "build up" > > Resistance does build up in a wire... masure the resistance at start +1 Ft > of wire and you get X (very small resistance) as you move down the wire the > resistance builds up because you keep adding resistance... get it now? I > didnt explain that well enough the first time sorry... Yes, it was unclear. Thanks for clarifying. > . Stripping half of the unneeded copper away> won't be detrimental. > > It sure as heck doesnt help,.,.., Doesn't hurt either. > if i had 4 guage wire then removed the > copper so that i get a piece of 18 guage coming out of a 4 guage wire... > the 18 guage piece will get hot and go up in resistance... the 18 guage > piece cannot carry the current that is needed to support the amp... If you're removing so much that it essentially becomes a fuse, then no it's not good. But keep in mind how thick the traces are inside the amp. > people > who run 4 guage wire then cut away the coper to make like 10 guage would > have been better off just running 10 guage... they might get a little > bit more current carraying capibility with the 4 guage to 10 guage.. No, this doesn't make sense. Bottom line is this: resistance = resistivity times length divided by cross-sectional area. Since the length of the stripped piece is so short, it doesn't make any difference how thin it is to the resistance of the wire (that is, until it gets so small that it becomes a fuse - this is difficult to do). So running 8ga. and terminating it into 14ga. will still yield a higher resistance wire. Higher resistance than running 10ga all the way back. > but not > for the price difference.... Remember electrons flow on the outside of a > copper conductor, stranded wire is better then solid wire... This isn't exactly true. Electrons make use of the full diameter of the wire. What you're referring to is the static assessment - that is, electrons under steady-state conditions will reside on the outside of the conductor. > Sorry i didnt explain the reson I said the battery was like a cap is because > the voltagev on a battery cannot change insontainesoley... just like a cap. Not sure what you're getting at here. The voltage at the terminals of both a battery and a capacitor can change instantaneously, depending on the current draw. I think what you're referring to is that both batteries and capacitors tend to act as low-pass filters when they're in parallel with the alternator/amplifier circuit. While this is true, they do so by entirely different mechanisms and therefore have entirely different modes of operation. > You can put another battery right next to the amp i suppose.. then you dont > have to worry about the size of the wire going to the amp and battery from > the alternator.. though the battery will lose its charge quickly if playing > loudly... the alternator has to charge two batteries then... Putting a 12v battery next to the amp will actually decrease the supply voltage to the amp rather than increase it. This is because whenever the system voltage is greater than 12v (which tends to be the bulk of the time), the battery is actually drawing current rather than supplying it. > Ken An EE But college apparently means nothing but a piece of paper. College can be useful, but it doesn't touch experience. > So running 8ga. and terminating it into > 14ga. will still yield a higher resistance wire. Higher resistance than > running 10ga all the way back. Oops. This should read lower resistance, not higher resistance. > > Ok thanks for the post.. i understand why people think caps are > > bs... i get it now... im not fimilar with the interior working of an [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Yes, it was unclear. Thanks for clarifying. you got it > > . Stripping half of the unneeded copper away> won't be detrimental. > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > If you're removing so much that it essentially becomes a fuse, then no it's > not good. But keep in mind how thick the traces are inside the amp. good point... there prolly not that large, although for the power i would think a good amp uses copper planes rather then traces > > people > > who run 4 guage wire then cut away the coper to make like 10 guage would [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > electrons under steady-state conditions will reside on the outside of the > conductor. And we dont have steady state conditions? its DC, and on average i think the unit draws the same amount of current .. if so then yes the electronics flow on the outside.. i would think... i dunno.. i better go check this out > > Sorry i didnt explain the reson I said the battery was like a cap is > because > > the voltagev on a battery cannot change insontainesoley... just like a > cap. > Not sure what you're getting at here. The voltage at the terminals of both > a battery and a capacitor can change instantaneously, depending on the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > different mechanisms and therefore have entirely different modes of > operation. The voltage on a battery or a cap cannot (CANNOT) Change all at once.. it is the properity of a cap.. you would need infinity currrent to do it... good luck. > > You can put another battery right next to the amp i suppose.. then you > dont > > have to worry about the size of the wire going to the amp and battery from > > the alternator.. though the battery will lose its charge quickly if > playing > > loudly... the alternator has to charge two batteries then... Agreed with that > Putting a 12v battery next to the amp will actually decrease the supply > voltage to the amp rather than increase it. This is because whenever the > system voltage is greater than 12v (which tends to be the bulk of the time), > the battery is actually drawing current rather than supplying it. Agreed > > Ken An EE But college apparently means nothing but a piece of paper. > > College can be useful, but it doesn't touch experience. quite right... im good with control systems :) > > This isn't exactly true. Electrons make use of the full diameter of the > > wire. What you're referring to is the static assessment - that is, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > flow on the outside.. i would think... i dunno.. i better go check this > out Ah, "steady state" would be the wrong term for it. Anyway, it's static vs. dynamic. The electrons make use of the entire conductor. The evidence for this is that resistance is defined in part by the cross-sectional area of the conductor. Further evidence can be found by doing a search for the "skin effect". The skin effect isn't exactly relevant to the question, but it serves to illustrate a point. If you look at the boundary conditions by setting the frequency to zero (DC), then you find that the calculated skin depth (which, put simply, is the depth at which the conductor maintains a certain level of resistance) specifies that the electrons use the entire conducting volume. I can get a pdf'd page out to you, or anyone else, interested in the skin effect if you'd like. > > Not sure what you're getting at here. The voltage at the terminals of > both [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > is the properity of a cap.. you would need infinity currrent to do it... > good luck. v = v0 * e^(-t/RC) That's the voltage of a discharging cap. I'm sure you're familiar with that equation. Take the derivative with respect to t (time) to identify how fast the voltage can change. dv/dt = v0 * (-t/RC) * e^(-t/RC) It can certainly change. The parameters that affect the rate of change are the initial voltage (v0), the current draw (indirectly specified by R), and the capacitance. This change can be substantial, even for large capacitors. Plug the numbers in yourself. As for batteries, the voltage change is basically dictated by a voltage divider rule. v = v0 * Ra /(R0 + Ra) where R0 is the output impedance of the battery and Ra indirectly specifies the current draw of the amplifier. As you can see, the voltage drop with the battery follows a very different time course. > > College can be useful, but it doesn't touch experience. > quite right... im good with control systems :) Ah, you're one of THEM. >:) > > > This isn't exactly true. Electrons make use of the full diameter of the > > > wire. What you're referring to is the static assessment - that is, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > conducting volume. I can get a pdf'd page out to you, or anyone else, > interested in the skin effect if you'd like. Put the link up or mail it to me im due for some good reading > > > Not sure what you're getting at here. The voltage at the terminals of > > both [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > the capacitance. This change can be substantial, even for large capacitors. > Plug the numbers in yourself. Yeah voltage can surely change on a cap... to have it change in 0 time... well forget it.. for excample you can put 12V across a resistor in 0 time (given that there are no capacitive components on the resistor) there is a charging time.. 5 tou... that onmly gets you to 93 or 96% i cant remember the number exactly... but anyway there are 5 time constants that you need to get to "full" charge... never instant.... > As for batteries, the voltage change is basically dictated by a voltage > divider rule. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the current draw of the amplifier. As you can see, the voltage drop with > the battery follows a very different time course. > > > College can be useful, but it doesn't touch experience. > > quite right... im good with control systems :) > > Ah, you're one of THEM. >:) I am.. if you have questions on digital design or microcontroller programming i can help.. otherwise im just full of foggy information from school > Put the link up or mail it to me im due for some good reading Will do. I assume the email address that you're listed under here is valid? > Yeah voltage can surely change on a cap... to have it change in 0 time... > well forget it.. for excample you can put 12V across a resistor in 0 time > (given that there are no capacitive components on the resistor) Right, but in the real world, there's no such thing as instantaneous (0 time). Even superconductors can't attain that. Audio systems are rather simple, since switching power supplies usually won't extend beyond 100kHz. And, much more importantly, musical transients are on the order of hundreds of Hz. Leave "instantaneous" in the computer realm. :) > there is a charging time.. 5 tou... that onmly gets you to 93 or 96% i > cant remember the number exactly... but anyway there are 5 time constants > that you need to get to "full" charge... never instant.... 5 tau is an arbitrary number. Especially for our purposes, where the cap voltage never dips below about 12v to begin with. The bottom line is that neither the cap nor the battery can deliver current instantaneously. But they can be modeled as such in the system we're describing. In fact, the "least instantaneous" device is probably the alternator, because it has a delayed feedback mechanism to contend with. Understood... please see my post 2003 F250 component speaker system.. i would like to hear your useful feedback on that topic... I have an 03 f250 and i want it to sound really good.. im new at all this and am willing to spend dsay 7 - 800 bux Kenny > > Put the link up or mail it to me im due for some good reading > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > describing. In fact, the "least instantaneous" device is probably the > alternator, because it has a delayed feedback mechanism to contend with. > It sure as heck doesnt help,.,.., if i had 4 guage wire then removed the > copper so that i get a piece of 18 guage coming out of a 4 guage wire... it sure can if it is short! remember its not only the wire diameter, its the length as well. > the 18 guage piece will get hot and go up in resistance... and I doubt anyone would wittle down a 4ga piece to 18ga. if you have to take some strands off the outside to cram the wire in a connector you usually just take off a little.... > the 18 guage > piece cannot carry the current that is needed to support the amp... people > who run 4 guage wire then cut away the coper to make like 10 guage would > have been better off just running 10 guage... not true, no matter how you whittle it down, you will have 15 ft of 4 ga as opposed to 15 ft of 10ga which has more resistance. > Remember electrons flow on the outside of a > copper conductor, stranded wire is better then solid wire... you have been reading to many wire brochures from stereo shoppes.. Skin effect does not occur to any degree to worry about untill you get to VHF frequencies, were dealing WITH DC!!!!! Skin effect NOTTA!! Eddie Runner > I would like everybody to explain to me why caps are BS.... i am an > electrical engineer... I know what a cap does and if you think these caps > cannot help you then you are mistaken. I am ACTUALLY an EE and get paid to be one! But, I'll let the non EE's have at you. Being an EE I am reluctant to admit it on the net, I prefer to claim to be a bridge welder, or professional world saving action hero. It sounds soooo much more exciting. Chad > > I would like everybody to explain to me why caps are BS.... i am an > > electrical engineer... I know what a cap does and if you think these caps [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > claim to be a bridge welder, or professional world saving action hero. It > sounds soooo much more exciting. There are other folks in here that are EEs but don't feel the need to point that out, and instead let the posts speak for themselves. And then there are some people in here that are not formally trained as EEs but know more than us anyway. > And then there are some people in here that are not formally trained as EEs > but know more than us anyway. These are the ones I respect the most! Chad > I would like everybody to explain to me why caps are BS.... i am an > electrical engineer... I know what a cap does and if you think these caps > cannot help you then you are mistaken. As a driver of electric trains, you should be smart enough to look this stuff up. A cap wont hurt anything, except your wallet cause they aint cheap! Havin more juice if you need it is a good thing... But the question is, do you really need it..?? Car Amps have a 12 volt capacitor bank inside them already on the power wire inputs... Dont the amp manufacturers make this cap bank big enough??? One primary goal of this input cap bank is to prevent the switching of the amplifiers power supply from feeding back into the cars electrical system. Car amps have another cap bank on the power rails after the power supply. (typicly + and - 40 volts or more) This is where the juice is stored and ready to use for the output transistors. This is really where alot of energy should be stored for use. If I wanted to add a cap where it would seem to be the best, it would be on the power supply rails not the amp 12 volt input.... Wouldnt it be better to store several farads of 90 volts than 12 volts? Wouldnt it be bettter to have the storage right where the juice is ready to be used, or at the amps inputs where much could be lost through the bottleneck of the DC - AC - DC power supply of the amplifier...?? In the early days of car amps many of us experemented with big caps on the power inputs (mostly as noise filters) and on the power supply rails (as storage devices)... Some one saw what we were doing and decided to buy a bunch of surplus caps and rebadge them with fold plated terminals and then ANYONE could have stuff just like the early PRO competitors used. Now I like to refer to them as JEWELRY CAPS..... Most folks that have conducted actuall listening tests have come up with NO DIFFERENCE..... SO is it worth it? > Ill give you that if the car is wired right (large power wires) to the amp > then a cap is not needed. Most cars are OVERWIRED!!! An amp that would easily work with an 8 gu wire is manytimes wired with a 4 gu nowdays.... > When resistance builds up in the wire to the amp or the terminal on the amp How does resistance build up? Sounds like your saying builds up over time..?? Or as it heat us?? Or as you move along the length of the wire? > cannot accept your 4 guage wire so you strip half the copper off... If your talking about striping the wire to put it into a connector that is acceptable and not a problem... If your en engineer (toot toot) then you oughta know the wire being thinner for a small time may not be a hindrence ... your resistance is r1+r2+r3+r4, ... Might be better to have no connectors at all, but thats not usually possible...And usually not a problem if they are connected well. > then > guess what your resistance just went up, resistance goes up on EVERY connector, and every distribution block and every inch of wire you use.... with R*I you can see what your voltage loss is, which for most overbuilt car systems is not much.... PLUS, more to the point, a cap is only storage for a very small period of time, it will probably not work as a band aid to bad wireing... So wire it right and forget the cap... > also resistance goes up when > running cause the wires warm up.. have you ever felt a wire when a car amp was running? A wellinstalled systen will not cause the wire to get hot enough to cause any measureable resistance change. > A good system voltage on a car will be well over 13.5V while running thats the alternator voltage..... Since alot of alternators are not that beefy, its pretty common to measure a voltage fluctuation at the amplifier between the 13.5 of the wimpy alternator and the 12 volts of the car battery. This voltage fluctuation has nothing to do with striping the 4 gu wire wrong, it just has to do with an alternator being wimply or old or broken... A cap could help fill in here, but bass notes are pretty lengthy nowdays so a cap will still just discharge on a bass note not making a whole lot of difference in the voltage fluctuation... AND probably even more important, the measureable voltage fluctuation that you may measure between alternetor and bettery voltage is not enough to HEAR anything detrimental through your stereo.... so 1) you cant hear the problem 2) if you cant hear the problem you cant hear the cap even if it fixed the problem. > Batteries and altinators are not made to handle the large current draws of > an amplifier (most peak current draw of well over 50A) betteries sure are!! Battereis are there to start the car, whch could take well over 50 amps! > guess what.. if > your wire is an ohm you lost 50 volts.. put a 1 ohm resistor on your 12 volt power supply, measure it and even through the 1 ohm resistor and you will still see 12 volts! According to your statement we would loose 50 volts so I guess your saying we should see -38 volts.... ha ha ha Even if you have a 50 ohm resistor you will STILL see 12 volts.... remember I*E For the voltage loss to occur there must be current flow, the more current the more loss.... its not JUST the resistance!!! It is both! > Dont tell me that voltage doesnt drop across a wire because I know it does. You dont seem to be very well versed on the subject.... Your en electrical engineer, think about those train tracks that go round and round. its a simple concept really! > with 4 Guage wire Which is HUGE HUGE you will drop 200mV given you used > 10 ft of 4 guage NOT TRUE!!! It depends on the current draw. > now make that 8 guage > you drop .335V NOT TRUE!! Again it would depend on the current draw. Voltage drop calculations must have current and resistance.... I just did a google and one web site says its 4 gu .000292 r per ft 8 gu .000739 r per ft using these figgures voltage drop is as follows. start with 14 volts and 15 ft of wire 4gu 14volts - 1amp - 0.00438 drop 14.00 left 8gu 14volts - 1amp - 0.01108 drop 13.99 left 4gu 14volts - 10amp - 0.04380 drop 13.96 left 8gu 14volts - 10amp - 0.11085 drop 13.89 left 4gu 14volts - 25amp - 0.10950 drop 13.89 left 8gu 14volts - 25amp - 0.27712 drop 13.72 left 4gu 14volts - 50amp - 0.21900 drop 13.78 left 8gu 14volts - 50amp - 0.55425 drop 13.45 left 4gu 14volts - 75amp - 0.32850 drop 13.67left 8gu 14volts - 75amp - 0.83137 drop 13.17left 4gu 14volts - 100amp - 0.43800 drop 13.56left 8gu 14volts - 100amp - 1.10850 drop 12.89left 4gu 14volts - 125amp - 0.54750 drop 13.45left 8gu 14volts - 125amp - 1.38562 drop 12.61left I would a stopped using the 8 gu back around 50 amps or so, but you see even at 100 amps there is only 1 volt of current drop, and on music that would only be on the big bass hits where lots of current flows, not ALWAYS, so you can see the way we usually build systems is way overbuilt.... (usually) I hope you also see how the current dictates the current drop, as the resistance of the wire and the starting voltage did not change.... And still the voltage drop with the smallest wire and the biggest draw is still probably not a problem for most folks, and the way most cars are overbuilt, the 125 amps on 8 gu is unlikley to be seen..... ;-) > This is at 70 degress F most likely... wire gets derated substaintially > with heat.... substancially my a.s! it takes lots of heat to change it BARELY!! > next time youre blasting your rap check and see what the > temperature of the wire is... you shouldnt be surprized to find out that > youre loosing .5 - 1V pretty easily Whoever gave you your electric train liscense (EE degree) should be drummed outa the college... He let you miss too many days and still passed you.... > You said Caps are junk? I said caps are JEWELRY! Wear em if you like, they cost alot.... > Anyway before you try to make me look like an idiot do some research you made yourself look like an idiot.... YOU should do some research..... TOOT TOOT!!!! Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ > > I would like everybody to explain to me why caps are BS.... i am an > > electrical engineer... I know what a cap does and if you think these caps [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > One primary goal of this input cap bank is to prevent the switching of the > amplifiers power supply from feeding back into the cars electrical system. Understood... I am sure the car has some crap on the 12V rail that can be considered noisy to the amplifier as well. > Car amps have another cap bank on the power rails after the power supply. > (typicly + and - 40 volts or more) > This is where the juice is stored and ready to use for the output transistors. I did not realize it went up that high... I figured maybe 20 volts > This is really where alot of energy should be stored for use. > > If I wanted to add a cap where it would seem to be the best, it would be > on the power supply rails not the amp 12 volt input.... Wouldnt it be better > to store several farads of 90 volts than 12 volts? First of all a 1F cap is expensive enough at 20 volts... buy one at 90 Volts (it would be huge first of all and prolly cost a grand) Wouldnt it be bettter to > have the storage right where the juice is ready to be used, or at the amps inputs > where much could be lost through the bottleneck of the DC - AC - DC [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Sounds like your saying builds up over time..?? Or as it heat us?? > Or as you move along the length of the wire? Move along the length of the wire.. i was using terms like build up... sorry i should have made it simplier... > > cannot accept your 4 guage wire so you strip half the copper off... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to have no connectors at all, but thats not usually possible...And usually > not a problem if they are connected well. I dare you to push 50 amps (just picking numbers now) through a 4 guage wire that was reduced to the diamater of a 20 guage wire for 1 inch) guess what... that small diamater will act like a fuse I assume the same thing in a car... explain it to me if i am wrong please... > > then > > guess what your resistance just went up, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > it will probably not work as a band aid to bad wireing... So wire it right and > forget the cap... Agreed... i had a misconetption about the caps > > also resistance goes up when > > running cause the wires warm up.. > have you ever felt a wire when a car amp was running? > A wellinstalled systen will not cause the wire to get hot enough [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > 1) you cant hear the problem > 2) if you cant hear the problem you cant hear the cap even if it fixed the problem. So the amp doesnt mind large voltage swings? > > Batteries and altinators are not made to handle the large current draws of > > an amplifier (most peak current draw of well over 50A) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the 1 ohm resistor and you will still see 12 volts! According to your statement we > would loose 50 volts so I guess your saying we should see -38 volts.... ha ha ha Yeah yeah i was picking numbers and was in a rush... quick eyes i like that... > Even if you have a 50 ohm resistor you will STILL see 12 volts.... > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > NOT TRUE!!! > It depends on the current draw. I am sorry did you see the link i showed... i think the current i selected was 50A > > now make that 8 guage > > you drop .335V [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > I said caps are JEWELRY! > Wear em if you like, they cost alot.... Caps have a better purpose in the other world of electtronics.. maybe not as large cans as proven to me but in digital world they are used all over the small ceramic ones... > > Anyway before you try to make me look like an idiot do some research > > you made yourself look like an idiot.... > YOU should do some research..... youre right... and i am ready and prepared to feel the rath of all of you .. and hopefully learn som,ething in the process Kenny > TOOT TOOT!!!! > > Eddie Runner > http://www.installer.com/tech/ > Understood... I am sure the car has some crap on the 12V rail that can be > considered noisy to the amplifier as well. True, but typicly any power wire ripple cant get into the amp because the amp changes EVERYTHING comong in to AC and then back to DC before it is stored in the power supply rails (caps)... So anything coming in is chopped up and straightened back out.... (the choppin up is far more severe than any noise coming in!) > First of all a 1F cap is expensive enough at 20 volts... buy one at 90 > Volts (it would be huge first of all and prolly cost a grand) true, specially if it is all gold and fancy (Jewelry) looking.... They also dont want folks opening the amps to try this modification... You can get some surplus caps of several 100,000 Mfds that are high enough voltage from $10 and up... We used to do this a bunch back in the late 70s and early 80s.... > I dare you to push 50 amps (just picking numbers now) through a 4 guage > wire that was reduced to the diamater of a 20 guage wire for 1 inch) guess > what... that small diamater will act like a fuse I assume the same thing > in a car... explain it to me if i am wrong please... You CAN make a fuse that way if youwish.. ;-) > So the amp doesnt mind large voltage swings? depends on how large the voltage swings are... > Caps have a better purpose in the other world of electtronics.. maybe not as > large cans as proven to me but in digital world they are used all over > the small ceramic ones... Caps are caps... They dont really hurt anything if you can afford them. its just debateable how much good they will do you in the average car audio system.... I wouldnt use caps unless I have many many amps, and then I wouldnt probably need them, I would only put em in there so folks will think they look cool... (hey im in the audio biz, if I use caps maybe folks will buy em from my store!!) Eddie Runner I have heard a couple installations where Pyramid equipment actually sounded GOOD. For the amount of gear that it was, it definately wasn't AWESOME, but it was good, and for the $$$ invested in the systems, they were pretty good bang for the buck. That was with some amps that were 4 x 250 watts, Pyramid Pro Plus 12" woofers (with the woven kevlar cones..). I am pretty sure that their speakers are made by various suppliers (those Pro Plus's looked an awful lot like the Eminence 12"s that I had at the time). I remember back in the day that I had a Pyramid EQ/Booster that I bought for my first system. I remember the quote from the instruction sheet was "This automotive amplifier will produce 240 watts/channel (I.L.S.) into a load of 4 ohms". A few weeks after I bought it, I decided to upgrade my rear speakers, and got talked into an Alpine 30 watt/channel amp for the rear speakers. They told me if that amp didn't put out more power than the EQ, they would gladly take it back. Needless to say, it was so much louder and cleaner than the EQ/booster that it wasn't funny. Anyways, I ended up blowing up that little EQ/booster and brought it back to the store I bought it from to see if there was any type of warranty on it, and of course there wasn't. The salesman that I bought it from was a good friend of mine, so there was no hard feelings. I just wanted to know what that "ILS" power was. He talked with their repair tech, and he didn't know, so he called the engineers at Pyramid. Their response was "IF LIGHTNING STRIKES". They said that current car standards allow them to pump as much voltage through the amp as they want, then measure current draw, and there is also no regulations on how long it has to be able to put out that amount of power (I am guessing microseconds or smaller). Multiply them together, and you get ILS watts. this is a follow up to mercury the calculation i used tha multiplied that amperage by half the voltage to get rms, was designed knowing that the voltage from the battery is not constant because as you said during a big bass hit the voltage drops. so thats why u multiply the amperage by the voltage at 50% efficency. basically half the voltage of the batery. im not saying that this is super acurate. but it gives a rough estimate of the rms voltage. i tryed this calculation on my friends audiobahn amp and it came out pretty good. his amp is suposed to put out 400 wats rms and has a 60 amp fuse so 60x6.5=390 so 10 watts off but its pretty close. anywasy im sorry if i was unclear in how the formula worked. hope this clears things up > First of all your caluclation is retarded.... so what youre saying is if i > put in a larger fuse ill get more power... which is not true at all.. [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > listen to everyone else out there who has never even owned one and > > says there crap. The 50% factor has nothing to do with voltage drops during periods of peak current draw. The 50% correction factor is because most class AB amplifiers are only 50% efficient, so to provide 400 WRMS to the speakers, they must draw approximately twice amount from the car's electrical system. Scott Gardner >this is a follow up to mercury the calculation i used tha multiplied >that amperage by half the voltage to get rms, was designed knowing [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] >> > listen to everyone else out there who has never even owned one and >> > says there crap. As an engineer, I have a problem with a company advertising a "1000-watt" amp that puts out *at most* 200 WRMS, but I agree with you that as long as you're operating a Pyramid amp in its linear range (i.e. not clipping it), it will sound just like any other amp out there putting out the same power operating under similar conditions. But make no mistake - the 1000W versus 200W difference isn't as simple as Pyramid just reporting peak numbers instead of RMS numbers. They're flat-out lying their a.ses off. Honest RMS and peak numbers usually differ by a factor of two, not five. The only way your amp will ever put out a thousand watts is if it catches fire. Your watts-per-dollar discussion also leaves out a lot of factors, such as reliability, features, looks, and warranty coverage. There are some brands that are so notoriously unreliable that I wouldn't use one if it were free (Rockwood comes to mind as an example). But it sounds like you see the Pyramid amp for what it is - a very inexpensive amp that probably can put out an honest 125-175 WRMS. Since your expectations seem reasonable, and you're happy with the sound, that's all that matters. I just feel sorry for the people that bought the same amp, expecting to get 1000 watts out of it. Pyramid (and other companies like Pyramid) make it hard for consumers to make an educated decision. If a person doesn't know the difference between a "1000 Watt" Pyramid amplifier and a "1000 Watt" PPI amp, they're going to look at the price difference and be very, very confused. Scott Gardner >I dont see why everyone out there hates Pyramid. i own a pyramid amp >and sub and speekers and they all sound great. i bet 99% of the people [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >listen to everyone else out there who has never even owned one and >says there crap. You just explained in great detail why people hate Pyramid. They lie out their a.ses about their product specifications. So your fuse allows for your "1000W" amp to put out up to 200W. How do you know that the fuse isn't over rated too? Real 200W RMS amps are a dime a dozen. There's nothing hard about making one. I even built a 180W RMS car amp from scratch while I was in High School. whatt how can a fuse be over rated? its a 30 amp automotive fuse, not even made by pyramid. i bought it at autozone. and also somone was talking about my watts per dollar discussion and how people look for other factors suckh as reliability and looks. well so far ive used the hell out of this thing for over a year, and i have yet to have any proplems with it. it works great. ad as far as looks it looks pretty cool. here is a link of what it looks like. http://www.etronics.com/product.asp?stk_code=pyrpb449x&store=&catid=308 > You just explained in great detail why people hate Pyramid. They lie > out their a.ses about their product specifications. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > dime a dozen. There's nothing hard about making one. I even built a > 180W RMS car amp from scratch while I was in High School. It's not really that the fuse itself is overrated, it's that sometimes amps have larger fuses than they need, so it's not accurate to use fuse size to estimate the RMS power of an amplifier. After all, there's nothing to keep a manufacturer from putting a 30-amp fuse on a 100W amplifier. When you calculated 195 WRMS for your amplifier based on the 30-amp fuse it uses, all that means is that the amp can produce AT MOST about 195 WRMS. There's no way to tell from the fuse how much the amp *really* puts out, only that it's less than or equal to about 195 WRMS. It might be 195 WRMS, or it might be 125 WRMS or even less. Scott Gardner >whatt how can a fuse be over rated? its a 30 amp automotive fuse, not >even made by pyramid. i bought it at autozone. and also somone was [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> dime a dozen. There's nothing hard about making one. I even built a >> 180W RMS car amp from scratch while I was in High School. If you know what you are getting before you buy it it is fine. Buying the amp expecting 1000 or even 500 watts is the problem. In my three vehicles I have a Jensen, Baha and Kenwood amps. The Baha (or whatever it is called) says it has te same power as the Kenwood but from my ears it is definitely lacking. The best of the three is the Jensen. People make fun of Jensen here all the time but I keep my mouth shut. It only cost $100 and has been trouble free for three years. The Kenwood cost $400 11 years ago and is still running strong. The Baha was $75 and still does the job. All of these are 4 channel amps in the 50 watt RMS a channel range hooked up with 4 speakers on the front two channels and subs hooked to the back two. > I dont see why everyone out there hates Pyramid. i own a pyramid amp > and sub and speekers and they all sound great. i bet 99% of the people [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > listen to everyone else out there who has never even owned one and > says there crap. > The best of the three is the Jensen. People make fun of Jensen here > all the time but I keep my mouth shut. It only cost $100 and has been > trouble free for three years. That has generally been my experience with Jensen products as well. Their HUs are cheaply made (the buttons are crap), but the amps and some of the speakers are solidly built. > They're flat-out lying their a.ses off. Honest RMS and peak numbers > usually differ by a factor of two, not five. The only way your amp > will ever put out a thousand watts is if it catches fire. I've heard from a couple places that pyramid mfg'ers hook up an amp and pump more and more voltage thru it until it finally pops. "It was putting out 1000 watts, it's a 1000 watt amp." They just forget to mention "At 59 volts when it finally exploded".. In this hobby, just like any other, you get what you pay for. As a matter of fact I *did* own a pyramid amp once, it was something like 900-1000w. I thought it was great till I got my hands on a 280w Kicker amp that blew it away. A 400w Audiobahn amp doesn't sound the same as your pyramid, I dunno what you were on that you couldnt tell the difference. > A 400w Audiobahn amp doesn't sound the same as your pyramid, I dunno > what you were on that you couldnt tell the difference. It could easily sound the same if the subs that the audiobahn was driving were less efficient (or if it was simply a different car). I couldn't tell from the original post if he meant that his Pyramid amp sounded the same **and played as loud** as the Audiobahn, or just sounded the same at lower volume levels. If the volumes were set such that each amp was only producing 50 or 75 watts, I could believe that they would sound the same. But keep cranking them up until the Pyramid runs out of breath and the Audiobahn keeps going, and you'd notice a difference then, assuming the subwoofer efficiency and cabin characteristics in the cars were the same. Scott Gardner >> A 400w Audiobahn amp doesn't sound the same as your pyramid, I dunno >> what you were on that you couldnt tell the difference. > >It could easily sound the same if the subs that the audiobahn was driving >were less efficient (or if it was simply a different car). > I couldn't tell from the original post if he meant that his Pyramid > amp sounded the same **and played as loud** as the Audiobahn, or just > sounded the same at lower volume levels. Those two things are often hard to dissociate. > If the volumes were set such > that each amp was only producing 50 or 75 watts, I could believe that > they would sound the same. But keep cranking them up until the > Pyramid runs out of breath and the Audiobahn keeps going, and you'd > notice a difference then, assuming the subwoofer efficiency and cabin > characteristics in the cars were the same. He said the Pyramid outperformed the Audiobahn though. That's a difference I'd assume to be in the acoustical system. >> I couldn't tell from the original post if he meant that his Pyramid >> amp sounded the same **and played as loud** as the Audiobahn, or just [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >He said the Pyramid outperformed the Audiobahn though. That's a difference >I'd assume to be in the acoustical system. Here's his quote from the original post: "and hooked my amp to his subs and his amp to my subs and compared how they sounded, and ya know what, i wasnt able to notice any difference in the sound "quality" and neither was he." I just interpreted that to mean that they basically swapped amps between the two systems and couldn't tell a difference in sound quality. If they made an honest attempt to level-match the two systems, and they weren't playing them loud enough to clip the Pyramid, I'd expect them to sound the same, too. Scott Gardner >If they made an honest attempt to level-match the two systems, and >they weren't playing them loud enough to clip the Pyramid, I'd expect >them to sound the same, too. If both amps were line-matched, of equal (or at least very similar) power output, and neither was being driven to clip they should sound the same. Unless for some reason one happens to have an obtrusive THD% *well* over 0.10 were it'll become audible to the human ear. if you dont pay any attention to the INFLLATED POWER RATINGS of any amp, the pyramid will likely play just about as good as other amps of the same REAL POWER.... I have heard pyramid amps sound QUITE GOOD! Just dont think of them as 2000watts cause they aint! Eddie > >If they made an honest attempt to level-match the two systems, and > >they weren't playing them loud enough to clip the Pyramid, I'd expect [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > for some reason one happens to have an obtrusive THD% *well* over 0.10 were > it'll become audible to the human ear. Sorry. Misread his quote. SignatureMark remove "remove" and "spam" to reply > >> I couldn't tell from the original post if he meant that his Pyramid > >> amp sounded the same **and played as loud** as the Audiobahn, or just [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Scott Gardner Pyramid gets its lousy reputation from the fact that ANYONE can buy the stuff at ANY flea market... Flea markets usually have BAD installers or NO installers at all... So installed badly or installed by the customers themselves that may not know what they are doing makes ALOTS and LOTS of bad pyramid installations.... On the other hand the manufacturers with the BEST reputations manytimes are very strict about thier distribution and you will likely only find it where you find decent installers... Im not sure Pyramid lies about thier power ratings anymore than many other car stereo manufacturers... Lots of them lie!! (including MANY of the manufacturers with good reputations) Pyramid stuff is basicly not less reliable than many other products if installed properly and can actually sound pretty darned good compared to many leading products if installed well.... Since so much of it is installed improperly there is lots of busted pyramid stuff all over the place.... Comparing some pyramid products to other better name products might show you there are MANY similarities and in some cases a pyramid piece and a supposedly much better piece by a big name manufacturer might be exactly the same (must stuff is built in the same place in china anyway).... So the bad reputation may not really be deserved.... AND, if you took all the pyramid stuff sold and all your favorite manufacturers stuff sold you might be suprised to learn Pyamid outsells them! Pyramid is not a small opperation!! They sell a ZILLION different products and lots and lots of them each year!! Im not a big fan of pyramid, in fact im not a big fan of many brands... But it probably works as well as many brands if installed properly... Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ alpine for instance......I think we could agree that they have a good rep in the mobile audio world....... but.... does their headunit really put out 60 watts X 4....... not even close. FHLH...... good reputations, HA > Im not sure Pyramid lies about thier power ratings anymore than > many other car stereo manufacturers... Lots of them lie!! > (including MANY of the manufacturers with good reputations) >Im not sure Pyramid lies about thier power ratings anymore than >many other car stereo manufacturers... Lots of them lie!! Most of them "lie" if that's the word you want to use. Sadly, there seems to be so many variables in how each company rates RMS and Peak power outputs that variances will occur, even when the manufacturer is attempting to be honest. I happen to know that JL's 300/4 (rated at 85x4 if memory serves me) actually makes somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 watts per channel. And PG's Titanium series amps are always underrated. In my experiance JL has always underrated their amps, thus the nickname "cheater amp" comes to mind if any of you have heard of older JL amps referred to as such. I have an old 360a that kicks the crap out of 2 JL12W08's hooked up to it, (and if you couldn't tell) they are 8 ohm speakers. > >Im not sure Pyramid lies about thier power ratings anymore than > >many other car stereo manufacturers... Lots of them lie!! [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > makes somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 watts per channel. And PG's Titanium > series amps are always underrated. there have ALWAYS been folks that under rate (or rate properly) thier amplifiers, but MOST LIE ABOUT IT..... Just look around. > In my experiance JL has always underrated their amps, thus the nickname > "cheater amp" comes to mind if any of you have heard of older JL amps [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Titanium > > series amps are always underrated. > In my experiance JL has always underrated their amps, thus the nickname > "cheater amp" comes to mind if any of you have heard of older JL amps > referred to as such. I have an old 360a that kicks the crap out of 2 > JL12W08's hooked up to it, (and if you couldn't tell) they are 8 ohm > speakers. JL, didn't make amps when "cheater amps" were all the rage. Orion had the best example. but under-rating really means nothing look at PPI they're about spot on. > >Im not sure Pyramid lies about thier power ratings anymore than > >many other car stereo manufacturers... Lots of them lie!! > > Most of them "lie" if that's the word you want to use. Sadly, there seems to be > so many variables in how each company rates RMS and Peak power outputs that variances will occur, even when the manufacturer is attempting to be honest. I happen to know that JL's 300/4 (rated at 85x4 if memory serves me) actually > makes somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 watts per channel. And PG's Titanium series amps are always underrated. until there is an industry wide standard there is no real use in debating peak power. I think you should by what you need and let the EE's debate the rest. > I dont see why everyone out there hates Pyramid. i own a pyramid amp > and sub and speekers and they all sound great. i bet 99% of the people [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > listen to everyone else out there who has never even owned one and > says there crap. It doesn't take an expert to point out the obvious. I'm with you all the way, Charlie. But to so-called audiophiles, your words are blasphemous. Say what? > > I dont see why everyone out there hates Pyramid. i own a pyramid amp > > and sub and speekers and they all sound great. i bet 99% of the people [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > It doesn't take an expert to point out the obvious. I'm with you all the > way, Charlie. But to so-called audiophiles, your words are blasphemous. |
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