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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Car Audio / June 2004Speaker Phase?
I know that you want to wire both of your front speakers in phase with each other, and both of your rear speakers in phase with each other. But does it matter if the front set are in phase with the rear? DaN Yes, it is important to have all your speakers in phase. As you probably know, speakers that are perfectly out of phase simply silence one another. But what is more common is the loss of bass and an unfocused and incoherent image. No reason to subject yourself to that, so make sure you have them in phase and you'll be getting the best sound available from your setup ;)  SignatureTodd > Yes, it is important to have all your speakers in phase. As you probably know, speakers > that are perfectly out of phase simply silence one another. But what is more common is the > loss of bass and an unfocused and incoherent image. No reason to subject yourself to that, > so make sure you have them in phase and you'll be getting the best sound available from > your setup ;) Nope. Not important. Depends almost entirely on pathlength. It's not unusual to set your rear speakers or your subwoofer out of phase with the fronts. In fact, some head units and processors have a switch that will do it for you. Mark, are you trying to say speaker phase doesnt matter ??? It does make less of a difference as we get higher in frequency becuase the wavelengths get so short the phase changes when you move your head less than an inch.... But for your average door and rear deck speakers IT DOES MATTER QUITE A BIT!!! Eddie Runner > Nope. Not important. Depends almost entirely on pathlength. It's not > unusual to set your rear speakers or your subwoofer out of phase with the > fronts. In fact, some head units and processors have a switch that will do > it for you. > Mark, are you trying to say speaker phase doesnt matter ??? No, I'm trying to say that there's no "right" answer to his question. He should try it both ways. I believe the right answer for most folks is to put all the speakers IN PHASE.... right and left as well as front and rear... it typicly sounds best this way and sounds like something is missing if even one of the 4 speakers is out of phase... Changing the phase of some drivers can get varied effects, even widening the soundstage but you wont get thses benifits with only 4 speakers... You would loose more important sounds than any benifit in widenened soundstage.. Sometimes if you have multiple mids up front, this is something I might recomend experementing with, but in most cases I would NOT recomend it... It MIGHT be nice if everyone tried their hookups all possible ways to see what would sound best because some of them MIGHT learn something... But that is not for everyone, and if everyone DID try it that way, I think it would increase the folks that misswire things, and might increase the folks unhappy with their sounds, and might even increase the amount of busted amps or speakers cause these morons were messing wth em and made some mistakes.... ;-) The "right" answer is IN PHASE and not everyone should try it both ways.... Eddie Runner > > Mark, are you trying to say speaker phase doesnt matter ??? > > No, I'm trying to say that there's no "right" answer to his question. He > should try it both ways. > I believe the right answer for most folks is to put all the speakers IN > PHASE.... > right and left as well as front and rear... it typicly sounds best this way > and > sounds like something is missing if even one of the 4 speakers is out of > phase... Perhaps one, but not both. There's no steadfast rule regarding the rear speakers in relation to the fronts. > The "right" answer is IN PHASE > and not everyone should try it both ways.... This guy apparently wants to play with it, so he probably should try it both ways. There's absolutely no reason to choose in phase over out of phase. > Perhaps one, but not both. There's no steadfast rule regarding the rear > speakers in relation to the fronts. Go try it out !! If you have two speakers, and they are not in phase, you will have good sound when faded to the right or left, but in the middle the sound will usually be less... low end will suffer and mids will not be right.... Low end will cancel and make the speakers sound not as powerfull... Mids will suffer as well... While the speakers are IN PHASE the sounds that are equal in both speakers will appear to come from somewhere in between the speakers... IF mids are out of phase the voices and sounds that are the same will NO LONGER sound like they are coming from somewhere in the middle they will sound like they are coming from TWO seperate points near the speakers..!!! (BIG DIFFERENCE!) Some say that out of phase makes the sound stage wider, but with no more middle sounds the stereo seperation is really messed up!! NOT GOOD!! Now, your claiming REAR phase doesnt need to match front phase...! Sure, it does! Same things that phase changes from R-L happens between F-R... And from my EXPERIENCE it DOES sound best when all 4 speakers are wired in phase properly.... I would ONLY SUGGEST folks play with the phase if they have some inkling of whats going on before they decide on whats best.... One of my old buddies was told that reversing the phase of his home speakers would make them sound better... He listened to them that way for years thinking they sounded best that way...When he told me that I said NO WAY!!... We had a big arguement about it and he was sure his speakers sounded better out of phase!! We went to his house and his system DID sound nice, he has some expensive stuff (considers himself an audiophile).... But no bass and I could tell the vocals were all wrong... He changed things but evedently never compared things... I reached behind one of his tower speakers and made the switch! WOW it was amazingly better... He couldnt understand it... he spent the next hour rewireing things because he thought I had screwed things up and I was playing some sort of trick on him.... needless to say he did find it was much better IN PHASE.... but whats amazing to me is that someone with considerable knowledge like this guy, was fooled for so long (years)... Scary!! > > The "right" answer is IN PHASE > > and not everyone should try it both ways.... > > This guy apparently wants to play with it, so he probably should try it both > ways. There's absolutely no reason to choose in phase over out of phase. Well if he wants to play with it then BY ALL MEANS!! But why was he asking for advice ?? And my advice stands, WIRE EM ALL IN PHASE!! Eddie Runner > > Perhaps one, but not both. There's no steadfast rule regarding the rear > > speakers in relation to the fronts. > > Go try it out !! Been there, done that. In the car before my last car, I actually went with phase inversion. In my current car, I didn't. And in some cars, a difference wasn't readily noticable. As for subs, in my last two cars I've had the sub inverted in phase (relative to the front speakers). In the car before that, my head unit had an inversion setting so I adjusted on the fly. Bottom line is that I've yet to encounter a handy rule of thumb for best results. > Now, your claiming REAR phase doesnt need to match front phase...! > > Sure, it does! > Same things that phase changes from R-L happens between F-R... Then, according to your argument above, you should be suggesting that out of phase is the better option. Above (snipped for space) you said that when L-R are out of phase, it tends to be louder when the listener is closer to the L or to the R. Similarly, the same argument would hold true for F-R. Since, in many (but not all) cars, the listener is closer to the F than to the R, then your argument would suggest that they should be out of phase. However, I don't buy the implications of your argument to begin with. The reason L or R are louder in the out-of-phase condition is because you're attenuating the cancellation effects of the other side by NOT being in the middle. It doesn't have anything to do with the position per se'. The wavelengths tend to be too long to create a practical series of coherence or antinodes at different locations aside from the middle. Anyway, the F and R will interact. It's very difficult to predict how they're going to interact since it's VERY dependent on the contours of the vehicle. Hell, as with most audio settings in the car, it may sound better one way when the windows are down and another way when the windows are up! It's too random to be able to suggest that in-phase is better than out-of-phase when it comes to rear speakers or subwoofers relative to the fronts. "MZ" zarellam@twcnyremove.rr.comspam wrote: >Anyway, the F and R will interact. It's very difficult to predict how >they're going to interact since it's VERY dependent on the contours of the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >out-of-phase when it comes to rear speakers or subwoofers relative to the >fronts. A compounding factor with combined bass subwoofers (L+R or LFE) is that the polarity of a combined signal is not known in advance. That's one reason every home audio or home theater subwoofer has a phase switch or other compensation device. > Been there, done that. In the car before my last car, I actually went with > phase inversion. In my current car, I didn't. And in some cars, a > difference wasn't readily noticable. As for subs, in my last two cars I've > had the sub inverted in phase (relative to the front speakers). In the car > before that, my head unit had an inversion setting so I adjusted on the fly. Were NOT talking about inverting the phase of the sub... The REASON there is a sub phase switch is only because the electronic xovers (and passive as well) can end up changing the sub phase pretty far out of whack... reversing it sometimes really brings it back closer to the normal phase.... > Bottom line is that I've yet to encounter a handy rule of thumb for best > results. I have.... DO IT RIGHT... I would say my 200000plus cars in the last 30 years are a few more than the TWO you have done ha ha ha RULE OF THUMB WIRE THEM CORRECTLY OUT OF PHASE IS USUALLY CRAPPY > Then, according to your argument above, you should be suggesting that out of > phase is the better option. Above (snipped for space) you said that when > L-R are out of phase, it tends to be louder when the listener is closer to > the L or to the R. Similarly, the same argument would hold true for F-R. > Since, in many (but not all) cars, the listener is closer to the F than to > the R, then your argument would suggest that they should be out of phase. thats NOT what I said and if you believe that you are warped... I said if the L and R are not in phase the system sounds LESS POWERFULL than if they are wired correctly... Same thing goes for F-R... if the rear are out of phase the phole system sounds less powerfull... NOT SOMETHING most folks want. > However, I don't buy the implications of your argument to begin with. The > reason L or R are louder in the out-of-phase condition is because you're > attenuating the cancellation effects of the other side by NOT being in the > middle. thats what I said.. so who would want them out of phase?? > It doesn't have anything to do with the position per se'. ?????????????????????? Are you talking to me??? Your quoting my message you must be talking to me.... WHERE DID I SAY POSITION..?? Are you on drugs or is it the wine??? I SAID fade it to the left or right..... > Anyway, the F and R will interact. It's very difficult to predict how > they're going to interact since it's VERY dependent on the contours of the > vehicle. Bullshit, they interact JUST LIKE THE R AND L DO!! SAME DAMN THING!! > Hell, as with most audio settings in the car, it may sound better > one way when the windows are down and another way when the windows are up! has nothing to do with this conversation. > It's too random to be able to suggest that in-phase is better than > out-of-phase when it comes to rear speakers or subwoofers relative to the > fronts. Your wrong.... If your rears are out of phase with your fronts it will cause even the fronts to appear to have reduced output level... it would be RARE that that would be a good thing for anyone.... Eddie Runner R E A D M Y P O S T S M O R E C A R E F U L L Y of course it matters... I would normally try to get all the speakers in phase.... Eddie > I know that you want to wire both of your front speakers in phase with > each other, and both of your rear speakers in phase with each other. > But does it matter if the front set are in phase with the rear? > > DaN Yes, it does matter. My Crown Victoria came from the factory with the rear speakers out of phase with the front. It sounded terrible. It was an easy enough fix though. > I know that you want to wire both of your front speakers in phase with > each other, and both of your rear speakers in phase with each other. > But does it matter if the front set are in phase with the rear? > > DaN |
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