Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Car Audio / July 2004
Wiring 2 ohm DVC sub, 2 channel or Bridged
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Wild Weasel - 09 Jul 2004 22:30 GMT I'm installing a Elemental Designs 2 ohm, DVC sub and have a question about the best way to wire it.
My Profile Clarus amp can deliver 110 Watts RMS into two channels at 2 Ohms or I can bridge it to deliver 225 Watts RMS mono at 4 ohm (the amp isn't 2 ohm stable in bridged mode).
Will the sub perform best with 110 watts at 2 ohms going to each voice coil or 225 watts mono (voice coils wired in series) at 4 ohms?
Best Regards,
Marcel
MZ - 09 Jul 2004 23:21 GMT > I'm installing a Elemental Designs 2 ohm, DVC sub and have a question about > the best way to wire it. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Will the sub perform best with 110 watts at 2 ohms going to each voice coil > or 225 watts mono (voice coils wired in series) at 4 ohms? It makes absolutely no difference. It's the same either way.
dconder - 09 Jul 2004 23:58 GMT The only way it would matter is if your amp has seperate gain adjustment for each channel, which most do not. As long as there is only one gain, then either way is fine. If it does happen to have seperate, it is almost impossible to get the exact same signal to each channel and you would risk damage by running one voice coil at a different setting than the other.
> > I'm installing a Elemental Designs 2 ohm, DVC sub and have a question > about [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > It makes absolutely no difference. It's the same either way. MZ - 10 Jul 2004 00:01 GMT > The only way it would matter is if your amp has seperate gain adjustment for > each channel, which most do not. As long as there is only one gain, then > either way is fine. If it does happen to have seperate, it is almost > impossible to get the exact same signal to each channel and you would risk > damage by running one voice coil at a different setting than the other. You will not damage a subwoofer by running a different signal to each coil of a DVC woofer. That doesn't make any sense.
dconder - 10 Jul 2004 00:22 GMT Signal may not the right word. If each gain is not set exactly the same and the voice coils get different amounts of power or voltage or whatever you want to call it, the sub can be damaged. I ran into this when I was thinking of using a 4 channel amp bridged to two channels and running each coil off its own channel. Both the sub manufacture and the amp manufacture said it was not a good idea unless you had someway to level match each channel exactly.
> > The only way it would matter is if your amp has seperate gain adjustment > for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > You will not damage a subwoofer by running a different signal to each coil > of a DVC woofer. That doesn't make any sense. MZ - 10 Jul 2004 00:24 GMT > Signal may not the right word. If each gain is not set exactly the same and > the voice coils get different amounts of power or voltage or whatever you > want to call it, the sub can be damaged. How?
> I ran into this when I was > thinking of using a 4 channel amp bridged to two channels and running each > coil off its own channel. Both the sub manufacture and the amp manufacture > said it was not a good idea unless you had someway to level match each > channel exactly. Manufacturers say a lot of things, and their explanation for saying them isn't entirely forthcoming. This is one of those things. They probably put it in the same section of the manual as "break-in"...
MZ - 10 Jul 2004 00:29 GMT > Manufacturers say a lot of things, and their explanation for saying them > isn't entirely forthcoming. This is one of those things. They probably put > it in the same section of the manual as "break-in"... Case in point...in this thread, the OP stated that the manufacturer's power ratings for this amplifier looked like: 110x2 @ 2 ohms stereo, and 225x1 @ 4 ohms bridged. Now, unless 2x110 somehow became equal to 225 recently, then I'd wager the manufacturer did a little bit of rounding in this case (up, most likely).
dconder - 10 Jul 2004 00:31 GMT Gains match the head unit to the amp. When you turn the gains up, the volume appears louder because there is more signal into the speakers. If you turn one gain all the way up and leave the other all the way down, then one voice coil is receiving more voltage than the other or one side of the car will play louder than the other. Both voice coils need to see the exact same or damage can occur. Again, this is just what I was told but, it sounds right to me. I was not about to risk damage to my sub so, I did not try it. If I remember correctly, it was a JL amp and Diamond sub but, I have switched so much, I could be wrong on the brands. May have been Memphis amp.
> > Signal may not the right word. If each gain is not set exactly the same > and [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > isn't entirely forthcoming. This is one of those things. They probably put > it in the same section of the manual as "break-in"... MZ - 10 Jul 2004 00:38 GMT > Gains match the head unit to the amp. When you turn the gains up, the > volume appears louder because there is more signal into the speakers. If > you turn one gain all the way up and leave the other all the way down, then > one voice coil is receiving more voltage than the other or one side of the > car will play louder than the other. Both voice coils need to see the exact > same or damage can occur. I know what you're saying, but you haven't explained how damage can occur. The reason you can't explain it is because it's just a few more myths touted by the marketing departments of certain manufacturers. In fact, there are some manufacturers that actually *recommend* running two different signals to your DVC sub - that is, running a signal into one coil and shorting the other. Check the Adire Audio website for an example.
dconder - 10 Jul 2004 00:42 GMT I HAVE BEEN LIED TO, hehe
I just read Adire's site and you are 100% correct. That would have been good to know a while back. Chalk another one up to a learning thing. Hard to believe that some companies will say anything. I am going to have to remember who said it and NOT buy their products. Thanks a ton for the lesson.
> > Gains match the head unit to the amp. When you turn the gains up, the > > volume appears louder because there is more signal into the speakers. If [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > to your DVC sub - that is, running a signal into one coil and shorting the > other. Check the Adire Audio website for an example. MZ - 10 Jul 2004 00:47 GMT > I HAVE BEEN LIED TO, hehe > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > remember who said it and NOT buy their products. Thanks a ton for the > lesson. No problem. I wouldn't boycott the manufacturers who aren't completely honest. You'll quickly run out of companies! Sometimes I wonder if the people who write the trash that ends up in the manuals actually talk to the engineers that designed the equipment...
MZ - 10 Jul 2004 00:45 GMT Here: I've done the legwork for you.
From the Adire Audio web site:
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/TechPapers/DualVoiceCoilDrivers.pdf
"There's one thing that often comes up about wiring DVC subs, and that is the mistaken conclusion that running different signals to each voice coil will "ruin" the driver. Let's recall how a dual voice coil driver is built. Basically, a dual voice coil driver consists of two motors (the voice coils) co-axially mounted (that is, wound together on the former) to a single diaphragm. The net force on the diaphragm is the sum of the inputs of the two motors. Now, when you feed disparate signals to the motors, they do try to counteract each other. However, this will NOT result in mechanical stress in the system! "Why? Well, remember how a dynamic cone driver works. You have a static magnetic field from the permanent magnet. Then you have a dynamic magnetic field from the voice coils. It's the interaction of these two fields that generates the force that moves the voice coils/former that are attached to the diaphragm. Thus when the voice coil dynamic fields push against the magnet's static field, you generate a force on the former, which pushes on the diaphragm, and that pushes on the air, generating your acoustical wave. Now, when you feed the same signal to both voice coils of the driver, the dynamic fields of each coil are the same. They add together, and generate one single force (equal to the sum of the two individual forces) against the static field. Presto, cone motion.
"Take the "worst case" situation. You wire the two voice coils out of phase. At first, you think one coil is trying to push forward, the other backward, and suddenly the system tears itself apart, right? Nope. What happens is that one coil sets up a dynamic field. Let's say, for clarification, that coil 1 generates a signal to push the diaphragm forward. Since coil 2 is wired in opposite phase, it sets up a dynamic field to push the diaphragm backward. Net result is that the two magnetic fields CANCEL themselves out! That is, the dynamic field that's pushing on the static field from the magnets is ZERO. The field from coil 2 adds to the field of coil 1 in such a way that the net field is zero. Much like adding a two sine waves of the same frequency that are shifted by 180 degrees."
"This is the SAME basic principle with shielded drivers that use bucking magnets. Use a field of the opposite polarity to cancel the original field out. If the driver's motor magnet has a given polarity, use the bucking magnet to introduce a field of opposite polarity, so that the two fields cancel themselves out. Net result is no field. So, when we run two different signals to the voice coils, what we find is that the magnetic fields of the two combine to generate a net TOTAL field that interacts with the static field of the magnets. The two voice coils NEVER fight each other in a physical way; it's all in the magnetic field."
So which manufacturer are you going to believe? The one that provides an explanation or the one that simply says "don't do it, or else!"
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> Gains match the head unit to the amp. When you turn the gains up, the > volume appears louder because there is more signal into the speakers. If [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > put > > it in the same section of the manual as "break-in"... Eddie Runner - 10 Jul 2004 18:02 GMT I dont think thats true... ALthough dual voice coil subs are commonin car audio these days, they were first used in home audio with the intent that you can use ONE woofer for a stereo sound system, sending EACH DIFFERENT channel to one of the two voice coils.... NEVER was there a worry about damaging the woofer, even if you balanced the system all the way to one side......
Now, on the other hand, IT IS FAIRLY COMMON for stupid installers to hook up a DVC woofer WRONG, and if one coil is out of phase with the other coil, you can turn the danged thing WAY UP and hear very little sound and possibly damage the woofer that way!! AND IN CAR AUDIO with all the dipshit installers out there, this is fairly common, and probably where your advisors get confused....
> If each gain is not set exactly the same and > the voice coils get different amounts of power or voltage or whatever you > want to call it, the sub can be damaged. zoostation1965 - 12 Jul 2004 16:02 GMT Ok, while we're on the subject of DVC drivers, I have a related question. If I have a DVC sub that is 4 ohms per coil, and each coil handles 150 watts, what would the power handling be if I were to use just one coil? Would it be 150, or the whole 300?
The reason I ask this is because I have a 4 ohm DVC Alpine type-R 12", with the coils connected in parallel for a 2 ohm load. This is connected to an Audiobahn amp (yeah, go ahead and flame me for that.. lol) which is a mono amp, rated at 800 watts rms into 2 ohms. A lot of power for this sub, I know. Anyway, I'd like to add another Alpine type-R to this same amp. If i get another identical sub, there is no way to wire them to present a 2 ohm load to the amp, thus cutting the total output in half. I'd have to get two new DVC subs with 2 ohms per coil, in order to accomplish this. Unless I can use just one coil of each sub (assuming i get another identical sub) and wire the subs in parallel for a 2 ohm load.
Will I risk damage to the subs wiring them using just one coil? Also, what would the power handling be if I wired the subs this way? 300 per sub, or 150 per sub?
I bought this sub intending it to be the only sub connected to this amp, which is why I opted for the 4 ohm DVC. Now I wish to add a second sub to the same amp and I really don't want to have to replace the sub with 2 new ones. This sub is only about 6 months old.
Anyone have any thought on this?
> I'm installing a Elemental Designs 2 ohm, DVC sub and have a question about > the best way to wire it. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Marcel MZ - 12 Jul 2004 16:49 GMT > Ok, while we're on the subject of DVC drivers, I have a related question. If > I have a DVC sub that is 4 ohms per coil, and each coil handles 150 watts, > what would the power handling be if I were to use just one coil? Would it be > 150, or the whole 300? Perhaps surprisingly, somewhere in between. The power ratings are for single coils, but with the second coil inactive it no longer acts as a "heater" for the driven coil.
> The reason I ask this is because I have a 4 ohm DVC Alpine type-R 12", with > the coils connected in parallel for a 2 ohm load. This is connected to an [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > use just one coil of each sub (assuming i get another identical sub) and > wire the subs in parallel for a 2 ohm load. I don't see what you're trying to gain by adding a second sub.
> Will I risk damage to the subs wiring them using just one coil? No. The power handling will decrease, but then again, you'd be driving each sub with half the power you're currently driving one with.
> Also, what > would the power handling be if I wired the subs this way? 300 per sub, or > 150 per sub? Somewhere between 200 and 250, most likely.
zoostation1965 - 13 Jul 2004 03:32 GMT > The reason I ask this is because I have a 4 ohm DVC Alpine type-R 12", with
> the coils connected in parallel for a 2 ohm load. This is connected to an > Audiobahn amp (yeah, go ahead and flame me for that.. lol) which is a mono > amp, rated at 800 watts rms into 2 ohms. A lot of power for this sub, I > know. Anyway, I'd like to add another Alpine type-R to this same amp. If i > get another identical sub, there is no way to wire them to present a 2 ohm > load to the amp, thus cutting the total output in half. I'd have to get two
> new DVC subs with 2 ohms per coil, in order to accomplish this. Unless I can
> use just one coil of each sub (assuming i get another identical sub) and > wire the subs in parallel for a 2 ohm load.
>> I don't see what you're trying to gain by adding a second sub. I thought I would gain more output by doubling the cone surface area. I realize the right way to do that is to increase the power also... but won't I gain anything by doubling the cone area, even though the power I'm now using will be shared by both subs?
Scott Gardner - 13 Jul 2004 04:31 GMT >> The reason I ask this is because I have a 4 ohm DVC Alpine type-R 12", > with [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > won't I gain anything by doubling the cone area, even though the power I'm > now using will be shared by both subs? Yes, you should gain some SPL by doubling the cone area while keeping the total delivered power the same. I believe the maximum theoretical increase would be an additional 3 dB.
Scott Gardner
MZ - 13 Jul 2004 12:12 GMT > Yes, you should gain some SPL by doubling the cone area while keeping the > total delivered power the same. I believe the maximum theoretical increase > would be an additional 3 dB. Theoretically it could be even larger due to a reduction in power compression.
To the original poster: be sure to short the unused coils.
Eddie Runner - 13 Jul 2004 16:53 GMT the MYTHS about cone area are explained here http://www.installer.com/tech/conearea.html
> I thought I would gain more output by doubling the cone surface area. I > realize the right way to do that is to increase the power also... but won't > I gain anything by doubling the cone area, even though the power I'm now > using will be shared by both subs? teds147 - 22 Jul 2004 05:08 GMT no although i dont think a plain zip should harm your computer even i opened to view what kind of files are in i
-- teds14
97 civic ex with no boom... ye
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