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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Car Audio / May 2005Time Alignment Just Not Doing It For Me
I've had my current Eclipse HU now for several months. It's the first one I've owned with time alignment. Anyway, I've been extremely patient with it and tried all sorts of combinations and such and come to the conclusion that my system just sounds better without any TA whatsover. I've got my 3-way Dyns mounted in the front, with the 8-inch midwoofers in the stock lower corner door locations and the mids and tweets in Q-Logic kick panels. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that their soundstage actually sounded BETTER without it. So some input would be nice...if only to be able to say I'm not the only one that feels this way. Tony  Signature2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition Eclipse CD8454 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and ZX500 Amplifiers, Phoenix Gold EQ-232 30-Band EQ, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and Focal 130HCs For Rear Fill, 2 Soundstream EXACT10s In Aperiodic Enclosure 2001 Chevy S10 ZR2 Pioneer DEH-P9600MP Head Unit, Phoenix Gold Ti500.4 Amp, Focal 165HC Speakers & Image Dynamics ID8 D4 v.3 Sub > I've had my current Eclipse HU now for several months. It's the first one > I've owned with time alignment. Anyway, I've been extremely patient with [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Tony it's all about what you like.. if you say it sounds better without, then it does. Perhaps your crossover/positioning just happened to turn out perfect, and you don't need to bandage it with time alignment? Using kicks like you do your ears are likely roughly centered between them anyway.. Personally, I don't use my time alignment for tonality, but to center the vocals in the middle of the windshield.. the tonality is eq'ed afterward...try out a good male vocal track sometime and gradually adjust the delay on your left-front speaker (the right front set to no delay).. see if the voice travels across in front of you as you do..I don't know how it will differ for you as my tweets are in the dash corners.. you might like the effect, if you don't then good for you. "Personally, I don't use my time alignment for tonality, but to center the vocals in the middle of the windshield.." I wasn't aware that TA had any affect on tonality. My image is already fairly centered. TA makes the vocals very focused but I lose the spread out, spacious sound that I like. "...try out a good male vocal track sometime and gradually adjust the delay on your left-front speaker (the right front set to no delay).. see if the voice travels across in front of you as you do..I don't know how it will differ for you as my tweets are in the dash corners.. you might like the effect, if you don't then good for you." Done that many, many, many times. Tony Signature2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition Eclipse CD8454 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and ZX500 Amplifiers, Phoenix Gold EQ-232 30-Band EQ, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and Focal 130HCs For Rear Fill, 2 Soundstream EXACT10s In Aperiodic Enclosure 2001 Chevy S10 ZR2 Pioneer DEH-P9600MP Head Unit, Phoenix Gold Ti500.4 Amp, Focal 165HC Speakers & Image Dynamics ID8 D4 v.3 Sub >> I've had my current Eclipse HU now for several months. It's the first >> one I've owned with time alignment. Anyway, I've been extremely patient [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > how it will differ for you as my tweets are in the dash corners.. you > might like the effect, if you don't then good for you. > "Personally, I don't use my time alignment for tonality, but to center the > vocals in the middle of the windshield.." > > I wasn't aware that TA had any affect on tonality. it does in my case, eliminates cancelation at certain frequencies, creates it at others I suppose.. > My image is already fairly centered. TA makes the vocals very focused but > I lose the spread out, spacious sound that I like. sounds like the difference in tweeter placement hits you there.. maybe.. never did care to have them anywhere but high in the doors or dash corners myself.. > "...try out a good male vocal track sometime and gradually adjust the > delay on your left-front speaker (the right front set to no delay).. see [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Tony good for you, sounds like you don't need any time correction;) > I've had my current Eclipse HU now for several months. It's the first one > I've owned with time alignment. Anyway, I've been extremely patient with [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Tony Not certain how the eclipse does allignment but there is a right way and a wrong way. Most do it the wrong way :) First off EVERY driver needs it's own source of delay not just a channel. You will end up finding out which driver is farthest from your head (say the right tweet or sub in a larger car) and measure it. This can be done with an emperical measuring device and the 'ol 1.1 Ms/Ft thing or with software such as SIA SMAART, can be had as a trial thing for a limited time. Then you will end up pushing all the other drivers in the front back with the delay until they are equidistant from your head. each driver will have a different time. It would also be best to use an allignment device with presets so you can do an allignment for center as to not trash the passenger's image when you have a rider. IMHO if your allignment device cannot do this then it's probably best off without it :) Chad Personally, I prefer separate L/R level adjustments for each driver - tweeters, mids, midbass, as well as the rears and sub. My system isn't currently equipped to handle that though. Not many systems are. I don't know what devices are out there these days to do it - some sort of elaborate external xover or eq, no doubt. > I've had my current Eclipse HU now for several months. It's the first one > I've owned with time alignment. Anyway, I've been extremely patient with it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Tony > Personally, I prefer separate L/R level adjustments for each driver - > tweeters, mids, midbass, as well as the rears and sub. My system isn't > currently equipped to handle that though. Not many systems are. I don't > know what devices are out there these days to do it - some sort of elaborate > external xover or eq, no doubt. You could use a DSP designed more for pro audio uses. For $250 you could get a Behringer DCX-2496. It's 3 inputs and 6 outputs. All of the inputs and outputs are individually adjustable with a laptop. Since you have a carputer it maybe worth a look into. You can download it's software without purchasing the unit at www.behringer.com and see what you think. Les > You could use a DSP designed more for pro audio uses. For $250 you could get > a Behringer DCX-2496. It's 3 inputs and 6 outputs. All of the inputs and > outputs are individually adjustable with a laptop. Since you have a carputer > it maybe worth a look into. You can download it's software without > purchasing the unit at www.behringer.com and see what you think. Only 6 outputs? I need 11. :) Great product though, Les. It looks like you can somehow daisy chain them, so I could buy 2 I guess. Hell, I'd get the money for one by selling my Zapco DAC, which these units would replace. I'm playing with the software now, and what I'm having trouble figuring out is how well it would mesh with two daisy chained units. It looks like the software is just set up to handle the 6 channels. Do I have to open something else to handle the other 6 channels? Also, how would I interface the optical output from my computer to both of these things? >> You could use a DSP designed more for pro audio uses. For $250 you could > get [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > interface > the optical output from my computer to both of these things? They don't chain up to do like 2 in 12 out. May be able to software link them but that would be rough too. I would say do front stage 3 way's with one and rear and sub with another. Also for more money you could use a Shure P4800 which is 4 in 8 out, or BSS soundweb which is crazy expandable. I'm looking for used soundwebs now, Les and I have already been talking :) I keep coming back to the Behringer. Peavey's Media Matrix sounds like your ticket. You could use a mainframe system and use BOB's (break out boxes) These can expand you inputs or outputs depending on which modules you use. I think you can go up to 16X16. Cool thing is that they use kick a.s shark DSP devices running at true 24/96. They are distributed by Peavey's AA division and if you have a local Peavey dealer around (*smaller the better) that is an AA dealer they will often sell then for damn near cost to keep the line and get numbers up. Don't be afraid of the name their AA stuff is top knotch as they were one of the inventors of system control with Media Matrix and are still top contenders. All of the units mentioned have switchers for power supplies so they can be run from a cheapo non-pure sine inverter or even a salvaged UPS. Run ONLY pure sine on iron!!! Let us know. Do get The software for the BSS 9088 it's way cool. 8 in 8 out draw lines and put in DSP chaining. The AA software is much like the BSS. If you have a PC in the car or a laptop you would be silly to buy a unit with a HUI on the front. Chad > > You could use a DSP designed more for pro audio uses. For $250 you could > get [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > something else to handle the other 6 channels? Also, how would I interface > the optical output from my computer to both of these things? Doh! I forgot you were running 3-way fronts, all actively crossed over. Like Chad said you could do the fronts of one and the rear and subs off another. The software will recognize the 2 units so you would just select which unit you want to work with at the time. They don't really link together, kinda but not really. I put 3 in an install at a church and you just select which one you want, but can't see all 3 at once. The BSS soundwebs would offer you way more than you would ever need and they do link together (BTW, still looking for some but noone wants to part with them!) But the Media Matrix would probably fit the bill too. I haven't priced one of those for quite some time so I don't remember how much they are. If/when I add to my system I will likely use the Behringer unit, makes too much sense for the money. I would run it Left Hi, Left mid, Right Hi, Right Mid, rear fill (yes mono, but I literally use it as fill so it's ok) and Subwoofer. Les > Doh! I forgot you were running 3-way fronts, all actively crossed over. Like > Chad said you could do the fronts of one and the rear and subs off another. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Mid, rear fill (yes mono, but I literally use it as fill so it's ok) and > Subwoofer. Actually, I'm wondering if I should run my rear fill mono with this thing anyway. I'd keep them on separate channels so that I can level control them separately, but I'm thinking a summed A+B may be the way to go. Anyway, thanks for pointing out this thing. It figures I'd choose to add something new literally one week after I built my amp rack with a slot for the Zapco piece that I'll be replacing... > It figures I'd choose to add > something new literally one week after I built my amp rack with a slot for > the Zapco piece that I'll be replacing... Aint that the way it goes......... Chad > If/when I add to my system I will likely use the Behringer unit, makes too > much sense for the money. I would run it Left Hi, Left mid, Right Hi, > Right > Mid, rear fill (yes mono, but I literally use it as fill so it's ok) and > Subwoofer. Same config here, On the rear fill I THINK you can derive a L-R signal and add it to an existing correct? This will add more ambience ala old skool surround. Chad I too have an eclipse with time alignment. I prefer the sound without using the time alignment. Although, I must admit that I do not know what I am doing with it. Reading this entire thread has pointed out some things for me to try and I can infer some tips on how to correctly use the time alignment. If I come to a different conclusion I will repost. "I too have an eclipse with time alignment. I prefer the sound without using the time alignment. Although, I must admit that I do not know what I am doing with it." Well, you really shouldn't HAVE to know what you're doing with it. As long as you've tried all the different combinations and came to the conclusion that it sounds better without it, that's all that matters! I've been listening to mine now for a few weeks and I'm solidifying my opinion that I prefer not to have TA. Tony Signature2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition Eclipse CD8454 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and ZX500 Amplifiers, Phoenix Gold EQ-232 30-Band EQ, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and Focal 130HCs For Rear Fill, 2 Soundstream EXACT10s In Aperiodic Enclosure 2001 Chevy S10 ZR2 Pioneer DEH-P9600MP Head Unit, Phoenix Gold Ti500.4 Amp, Focal 165HC Speakers & Image Dynamics ID8 D4 v.3 Sub Good for you! (making your own decision based on your ears!) Lots of folks use the TA for the only reason that it is there! Not because they have actually LISTENED and like it better! Back in about 1995 or so, I installed the big bad boy pro-Clarion piece with all the expensive fiber optic cables in my Hummer, I ordered the real expensive Time delay box (damn near as big as the radio itself) and I spent about 2 hours figguring out how it works... After all was done, I decided I liked the sound better without the damn thing... Kinda sucks to spend all that money (I remember it being around $600)..... It was a little bit depressing, but on the other hand I stood up to myself and didnt do something I didnt like the sound of for the mere reason I spent money on it! ha ha Good for you!! Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ > "I too have an eclipse with time alignment. I prefer the sound without > using the time alignment. Although, I must admit that I do not know what I [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Pioneer DEH-P9600MP Head Unit, Phoenix Gold Ti500.4 Amp, Focal 165HC > Speakers & Image Dynamics ID8 D4 v.3 Sub |
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