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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Car Audio / April 2006A Sub Box Question ?
Hello Everyone !!! Well I have a few questions about a sub box (S), or not for some subs. #1 There are places around here that are selling these no name boxes with no name speakers. A example is my last setup I did buy a box from pep boys and it came as a full range box and all I did was cut the holes to fit the 2 10" subs I was using. Is there anything wrong or could be a problem on doing this again or should I stay with pre-built for the type of sub ? #2 Depending on the setup and how the subs will be used is it better or a show effect to mount the subs upside down to the trunk body so the sound is aimed into the body of the car or truck ? #3 I am not sure they do this everywhere, but the home depot by me and a few retailers will cut the material I wan to the shape, size, and type I would like. They will even nail/screw everything if I like. Yes I will be paying extra, but would this be a good second options to consider and any suggestions on what to watch out for ? #4 Is there any advantage of use a box to host 1 sub or more when considering what type of box to look towards on subs ? #5 Dose anyone know of a website or anything that would help on what type of meterial I should consider to use if I have the box made to what I would like ? Thanks in advance ! > Hello Everyone !!! > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 2 10" subs I was using. Is there anything wrong or could be a problem on > doing this again or should I stay with pre-built for the type of sub ? You either need to get a box made specifically for the sub, build your own based on the manufacturers recommendation for your listening goals, or find a premade box that matches the manufacturers recommendation. > #2 Depending on the setup and how the subs will be used is it better or a > show effect to mount the subs upside down to the trunk body so the sound > is aimed into the body of the car or truck ? It's going to depend on way too many factors to determine the best way. In some cases the subs in a vehicle is for show, and others it's for the best sound quality. > #3 I am not sure they do this everywhere, but the home depot by me and a > few retailers will cut the material I wan to the shape, size, and type I > would like. They will even nail/screw everything if I like. Yes I will be > paying extra, but would this be a good second options to consider and any > suggestions on what to watch out for ? I would make sure your measurements are accurate. Keep in mind, Home Depot will not do "precision" cuts because they don't want to be responsible for their own work. I would make sure they use atleast 3/4" MDF. > #4 Is there any advantage of use a box to host 1 sub or more when > considering what type of box to look towards on subs ? It doesn't matter if you use one box or seperate boxes. I would just make sure the subs are in their own seperate enclosure. Their are a couple advantages to this, but outside of sound quality if you blow one sub, the other sub will still sound good. If you have 2 subs sharing the same air chamber, if you blow one sub, the other sub is in an enclosure that is too big and it won't sound good. > #5 Dose anyone know of a website or anything that would help on what type > of meterial I should consider to use if I have the box made to what I > would like ? See my response to question #3. > Thanks in advance ! > I would make sure they use atleast 3/4" MDF. No - nice 3/4" plywood. NOOOOOOOO MDF will not flex like plywood. Plywood is for Home Theater because you are wanting the resonation of the enclosure in most cases. Not car audio. MDF is definitely what you're gonna want.  Signature- AUSTIN BECKER > > > I would make sure they use atleast 3/4" MDF. > > No - nice 3/4" plywood. > NOOOOOOOO MDF will not flex like plywood. Plywood is for Home Theater > because you are wanting the resonation of the enclosure in most cases. > Not > car audio. MDF is definitely what you're gonna want. Let me get this straight. You're saying plywood is more flexible than MDF, so you should use it for home systems because you want a cabinet that flexes??? Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Home theater is meant to be a warm inviting tone created by resonance of the speaker as well as it's enclosure. Home theater incorporates sounds that are not used in car audio that would be harsh. That is why many high end home theaters use the same materials that are used for building drums. Maple, Birch, Mahogany and the likes. Those woods are VERY strong, but resonate as well. MDF does not resonate well, which is why it is choice for car audio. Signature- AUSTIN BECKER > > NOOOOOOOO MDF will not flex like plywood. Plywood is for Home Theater > > because you are wanting the resonation of the enclosure in most cases. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > so you should use it for home systems because you want a cabinet that > flexes??? Oh, man, that's original. And wrong. I don't want resonant speakers. I want flat, neutral speakers so I can hear everything. While you are resonating, break out that EQ to give a perfect smile curve for happier music. Resonanace = Harmonics = Distortion! "Sounds not used in car stereo"??? Your definition of speakers would have sounds not heard in nature (or at least in the original recording). And these "drum" woods do not resonate in the thickness you would use to build a speaker properly. And no one uses solid woods - speaker cabinets with the fancy woods are merely a veneer over the MDF. Oh, wait, is this an extended April fools joke?? You got me with the whole ignorant, resonant speaker enclosure rant. Good one!! > Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Home theater is meant to be a warm > inviting tone created by resonance of the speaker as well as it's enclosure. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Those woods are VERY strong, but resonate as well. MDF does not resonate > well, which is why it is choice for car audio. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=resonance Oddly enough, I didn't see distortion on there anywhere. Signature- AUSTIN BECKER > Oh, man, that's original. And wrong. I don't want resonant speakers. I > want flat, neutral speakers so I can hear everything. While you are [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Those woods are VERY strong, but resonate as well. MDF does not resonate > > well, which is why it is choice for car audio. Fact: Speaker enclosures are supposed to be as neutral as possible. That means rigid. Any good speaker design book will tell you that. Matter of fact, some drive home the point by saying that if it were practical to do so, cement would be an ideal material. The purpose of a cabinet is to contain air and give the components a place to hang onto. There are no exceptions. "Doug The purpose of a cabinet is to > contain air and give the components a place to hang onto. There are no > exceptions. Hey, I just gave you an exception (though I tend to agree that non-resonant enclosures are best and that cement WOULD make an ideal enclosure). What, am I chop liver here? MOSFET > "Doug The purpose of a cabinet is to >> contain air and give the components a place to hang onto. There are no [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > MOSFET Not chopped liver. Pureed eggplant. :-) Statistically speaking, one in a zillion is zero. :-) Your speakers are the "one". Maybe there's a "two" somewhere in some inventor's basement, though. Let's qualify it further, just to phuque up this discussion and send it off in yet another direction: If Henry Kloss never marketed a speaker designed to resonate, that's enough evidence for me. He didn't. >"Doug The purpose of a cabinet is to >> contain air and give the components a place to hang onto. There are no >> exceptions. >Hey, I just gave you an exception (though I tend to agree that non-resonant >enclosures are best and that cement WOULD make an ideal enclosure). What, >am I chop liver here? Cement might be ideal for bass, but at higher frequencies it resonates and ring badly. If the resanance is above the opperating band, your OK. Cabinets are always a combination of basic material and a dampng mechanism. greg >>"Doug The purpose of a cabinet is to >>> contain air and give the components a place to hang onto. There are no [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > greg Greg, before this discussion goes any further, you'd better qualify that entire last paragraph by suggesting some actual dimensions for your cement speaker cabinets, as well as a range of wattages you think might make them resonate. Without those two pieces of information, you cannot claim that cement resonates. My vision: 4" thick walls for the cement boxes, and "typical" home system wattages - let's say 100 watts. And, let's not say "Oh yeah? What if you drove 4000 watts into the same speaker?", because most people don't. > Cement might be ideal for bass, but at higher frequencies it resonates and > ring badly. Ok, now I'm intrigued. Please explain how cement resonates at high frequencies. I truly have no idea what you mean, but I'm curious. Have you ever rapped your knuckles on a concrete block? Any ringing? MOSFET >> Cement might be ideal for bass, but at higher frequencies it resonates >> and ring badly. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > MOSFET It's kinda like those high frequencies generated by earthquakes. You know. That high pitched sound before the buildings start shaking. >> Cement might be ideal for bass, but at higher frequencies it resonates and >> ring badly. > >Ok, now I'm intrigued. Please explain how cement resonates at high >frequencies. I truly have no idea what you mean, but I'm curious. Have you >ever rapped your knuckles on a concrete block? Any ringing? I repeat, if its a sub cab it does not matter. Its when you use a driver and a rattle, ringing, or other sound occurs withing the passband of the driver is it really a problem. Higher frequency sounds can be created by a lower frequency, if there are distortions in the system, or if the box can't hold up under the forces of that driver. On any box, you can tap it and listen. I suggest tapping with a hard metal object. If a box rings or otherwise is a poor choice, the amount of power necessary does not matter. Ceramic has been used before, and again it also needs internal damping to control the upper register ringing. In some cases drivers are insulated, or like mounted on rubber isolators. This prevents vibrations in the driver frame from transfering to the box. Would be ideal in a hard box like ceramic or cement. I'm talking midranges of course. greg Austin Becker Wrote: > NOOOOOOOO MDF will not flex like plywood. Plywood is for Home Theater > because you are wanting the resonation of the enclosure in most cases. > Not > car audio. MDF is definitely what you're gonna want. How did you figure this out! LOL! Honestly, if you have no clue what you are talking about, and you don't, please do not give false information to the other members of this forum. Signature95Honda > Austin Becker Wrote: >> NOOOOOOOO MDF will not flex like plywood. Plywood is for Home Theater [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > don't, please do not give false information to the other members of > this forum. Agreed. Everything I've ever read about speaker design says that the box should be as neutral as it's possible to make it. NOT flexible, but rigid. DUDE, PLYWOOD IS FLEXIBLE! MDF IS RIGID! far more rigid than any natural wood! holy sh.t. Dude, I know enough about car audio to know that natural woods are not choice for car audio enclosures. If they were, than many more would be build of natural wood, and not MDF. Do some research geniuses. I've taken the accoustical physics course (One of the only ones offered in the states through Texas State University (previously Southwest Texas State University and offers the only accredited Sound Recording Technology bachelor degree in the Southwest United States). We've done the testing to see why. Signature- AUSTIN BECKER > > > > Austin Becker Wrote: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Agreed. Everything I've ever read about speaker design says that the box > should be as neutral as it's possible to make it. NOT flexible, but rigid. Here's a few quick lessons on car audio enclosures. NOT home theater, but car audio. http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/boxes.asp http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/S-j9n8Hudz6S4/reviews/20030701/build_box.html? page=2 (at the bottom, click #2, then read #5) http://www.electronixwarehouse.com/education/enclosures/main.htm (read about 3/4 way down) http://www.ehow.com/how_4073_build-subwoofer-box.html (the first thing it says!!!!!) http://www.termpro.com/articles/buildbox.html (read 'Material Selection') http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm?id=46 ('materials' section) Do I really need to keep going? All i did is go to google and type in 'build car audio enclosures'. Keep using your plywood for car audio, but I assure you, MDF is choice for the application. Signature- AUSTIN BECKER > DUDE, PLYWOOD IS FLEXIBLE! MDF IS RIGID! far more rigid than any natural > wood! holy sh.t. Dude, I know enough about car audio to know that natural [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Agreed. Everything I've ever read about speaker design says that the box > > should be as neutral as it's possible to make it. NOT flexible, but rigid. All wood is flexible to an extent. What controls that flexibility is the design of the box, including the internal bracing. > DUDE, PLYWOOD IS FLEXIBLE! MDF IS RIGID! far more rigid than any natural > wood! holy sh.t. Dude, I know enough about car audio to know that [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> should be as neutral as it's possible to make it. NOT flexible, but >> rigid. >Austin Becker Wrote: >> NOOOOOOOO MDF will not flex like plywood. Plywood is for Home Theater [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >don't, please do not give false information to the other members of >this forum. Plywood is usually prefered in portable opperation, because it much easier to transport. Thats about it. Its also easier to buy, or should I say carry out of the store. I even like buying stuff thinner than 3/4 inch for the same reason. MDF is preffered in all other areas. I have never used MDF myself. Its too heavy. greg >>Austin Becker Wrote: >>> NOOOOOOOO MDF will not flex like plywood. Plywood is for Home Theater [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >in all other areas. I have never used MDF myself. Its >too heavy. Well my old preference was particle board, for one reason, cost. Was not light weight either. greg MDF is heavy because it is very strong. Far stronger than particle board. that stuff is horrible. Signature- AUSTIN BECKER > >> > >>Austin Becker Wrote: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > greg >NOOOOOOOO MDF will not flex like plywood. Plywood is for Home Theater >because you are wanting the resonation of the enclosure in most cases. Not >car audio. MDF is definitely what you're gonna want. You never want to have resonance. The only resonant home speakers are cheap home speakers. MDF would be best for kick panels and mounting frames for door speakers. For a bass cab, the only thing thats important is that is does not make audible sounds and is not too lossy. At sub frequencies, resonance is usually not a problem untill you take it into the hundreds of Hz range else you have a serious construction problem. greg > You never want to have resonance. The only resonant home speakers are > cheap home speakers. Oh, I beg to differ, sir. Resonance in speaker cabinets is ACTUALLY a concept employed by some VERY HIGH-END speaker makers. The concept being that when reproducing acoustic music, having speakers resonate (like a musical instrument) will produce a warmer, more life-like sound (don't argue the merits of this concept with me, I'm just telling you the philosophy). I have a pair of Michael Green Designs Tower speakers. I LOVE these speakers, they are the most life-like speakers I have ever heard. They are actually DESIGNED to resonate some. They have four sets of knobs connected to wires inside that adjust the tension of the cabinet (much like a guitar string). By adjusting the tension of these wires, you adjust the amount of resonance the cabinet produces. This does, indeed, effect the tonal character of the sound, and as I said before, these speakers sound EXQUISITE. Obviously, this is something that should ONLY be employed through careful engineering, not accidental resonance. Of course, for conventional enclosures (like my subwoofers in my car), resonance is almost always a bad thing as it represents wasted energy (sound energy converted to mechanical vibration instead of, well, sound). MOSFET >> You never want to have resonance. The only resonant home speakers are >> cheap home speakers. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > effect the tonal character of the sound, and as I said before, these > speakers sound EXQUISITE. Interesting idea, your speakers, but maybe a photographic analogy should be injected into this discussion. In one of his books, Ansel Adams reminded the reader that there's no single version of accuracy, because every visual medium injects some of its own qualities. So, he tweaked the photographic process to emphasize the things in a picture which HE felt were most vital. The same is true of speakers - everyone who listens will have an opinion. I play bass guitar, so the first thing I listen for is accurate, tight bass. But then, I have to keep in mind that when listening to live performances, there are infinite variations due to the type of bass, the type of strings, the amplification equipment, and the room. If your speakers are adjustable, where's the right adjustment? For which instrument? Bass? Cello? Deep piano & organ notes? It's a matter of taste. > If your speakers are adjustable, where's the right adjustment? For which > instrument? Bass? Cello? Deep piano & organ notes? It's a matter of taste. Oh, I agree. I often wish these speakers WERE NOT adjustable, as I would certainly trust a musical expert (let's say...a concert violinist) more than my own ears. However, the instructions for the speakers indicated that by adjusting the resonance, you can compensate for certain acoustic properties of the listening room. And as we all know the room in which speakers are placed make half the difference, so I suppose adjustability can be a desired thing. MOSFET >> If your speakers are adjustable, where's the right adjustment? For which >> instrument? Bass? Cello? Deep piano & organ notes? It's a matter of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > MOSFET Whatever. These speakers are an exception, but at least not a randomly designed one. What the other guy is saying is nuts, though. Maybe he's never heard some of the Japanese home speakers from the late 1980s - the crap that came with "rack systems". Gag me.... :-) Just one step beyond cardboard. >> You never want to have resonance. The only resonant home speakers are >> cheap home speakers. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >always a bad thing as it represents wasted energy (sound energy converted to >mechanical vibration instead of, well, sound). I don't undrstand why some people like to show their faces with every add of their own company. About 25 years ago, I made my own version of the Altec Voice of the Theater. Large plywood boxes with a home made mid horn and of course the woofer was horn loaded. Well I just loved the sound of these things playing loud rock music. They just produced the effects of large plywood concert speakers, giving that concert sound. It wasn't a bad thing, but certainly not high end. After over 25 years of reading Speaker Builder magazine and others, I never heard of trying to make a cabinet sound alltough I understand the concept of pleasing sound. greg > I don't undrstand why some people like to show their faces with every add > of their own company. Greg, I'm not sure what this comment even means or if it is directed at me. I was simply stating that your assertion that "The only resonant home speakers are cheap home speakers" was incorrect. There ARE in fact expensive home speakers that employ resonance into their design. I know, welcome to Usenet. But I have learned over the years sometimes it is best not to make blanket statements (like "all of these are this way" or "every single one is like this") as there always seems to be some wise apple (like me) who comes along with an exception. Leave yourself an out. MOSFET >> I don't undrstand why some people like to show their faces with every add >> of their own company. > >Greg, I'm not sure what this comment even means or if it is directed at me. Michael Green, Matthew Polk. Perhaps they were not loved as a child. They like to show everyone that they have achieved something by showing their faces in magazines. >I was simply stating that your assertion that "The only resonant home >speakers are [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >MOSFET Oh, OK, I get it. ;) >>> I don't undrstand why some people like to show their faces with every >>> add [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> >>MOSFET > I don't undrstand why some people like to show their faces with every add > of their own company. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > heard of trying to make a cabinet sound alltough I understand the concept > of pleasing sound. Concert/PA speaker cabinets are not made of plywood because it gives a certain sound... it's done because plywood is lighter, an important consideration in a cabinet that has to be portable. It's also more durable than MDF, another important consideration with a unit that's going to be lifted, swung around, dropped, and trucked around on a regular basis. Plywood also withstands water better - MDF will swell up and crumble at the least bit of moisture. In short: plywood is the construction material of choice for PA systems for entirely practical reasons, not sound-quality reasons. With the wide listening area, usually horrendously reverberant venues, and the huge stage volume, worrying about the difference in sound quality of plywood vs. other materials becomes moot... getting it LOUD is the point. Keep in mind that those big sub enclosures generally have very solid internal bracing, specifically to reduce flexing and increase the strength and rigidity of the box. Most of them use some sort of ported or folded-horn design as well. Actually, more and more PA systems are being made from plastics... again, primarily for the weight and durability factors. It's probably cheaper than wood as well, to be able to just crank out a bunch of pre-moulded boxes, rather than all that cutting and gluing and screwing and sawdust... --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0614-2, 04/06/2006 Tested on: 4/6/2006 8:45:11 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com >> I don't undrstand why some people like to show their faces with every add >> of their own company. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >pre-moulded boxes, rather than all that cutting and gluing and screwing >and sawdust... I have made speakers for DJ, and lifting undue weight is not my idea of fun, so plywood is my choice. Of course you can't say plywoods are all the same as well as saying particle board is all the same. YOu have to be carefull with local yard lumber, because the layers can separate, and I've also seen it with a many more layers. Most all speakers are made with a particle board base. Only higher end models use MDF. Paul Klispsh used to say his plywood corner horn sounded better than other copies, because he used better plywood. I can't emphasize enough, these box sounds do not usually apply to bass cabs. Box sounds apply mostly to midrange sounds. If woofer stays below 100 Hz, then forget box sounds, unless the box is vibrating at a harmonic, resonating, or just plain falling apart. . greg gluing and screwing > and sawdust... Wow! Sounds like a party! Count me in!! MOSFET >>I would make sure they use atleast 3/4" MDF. > > No - nice 3/4" plywood. Eh? Why plywood? Brandonb I've used 3/4 inch MDF (Medium Density Fiberboard), 3/4 inch Particle Board, and 1/2 inch Particle Board - and 3/4 inch MDF was BY FAR the best!!!!! That's my two cents. ~Mister.Lull All you need is cardboard and some white glue. >I've used 3/4 inch MDF (Medium Density Fiberboard), 3/4 inch Particle >Board, and 1/2 inch Particle Board - and 3/4 inch MDF was BY FAR the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >~Mister.Lull MDF is not brittle either. When a box is constructed properly you can drop it off a roof, and it will be fine. Signature- AUSTIN BECKER > All you need is cardboard and some white glue. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > >~Mister.Lull I don't know why I responded to that message to post this. It was aimed elsewhere, but I'm drinkin'! :) That's what happens when you feel awful I guess ? Signature- AUSTIN BECKER > MDF is not brittle either. When a box is constructed properly you can drop > it off a roof, and it will be fine. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > > > >~Mister.Lull >>>I would make sure they use atleast 3/4" MDF. >> >> No - nice 3/4" plywood. > Eh? Why plywood? > > Brandonb Rigidity without brittleness. > >>>I would make sure they use atleast 3/4" MDF. > >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Rigidity without brittleness. Eh, Its not my carpet. One man's trash is another's treasure. My vote is for mdf as well, 1" preferably. If it doesn't work, you can always hit somebody with it. SignatureCyrus *coughcasaucedoprodigynetcough* Both plywood and MDF have advantages. Plywood has a much higher modulus of elasticity (close to 1600-1700psi versus around 300psi for MDF). This basically means what we already know... Plywood is STIFFER. This holds great merit for large enclosures in order to resist bending and flexing. However, MDF has a higher density (750 kg/m^3 versus around 550 kg/m^3 for plywood). This translates into a higher ability to reflect sound waves and act as a natural sound deadener, which translates into more of your bass being translated through air waves instead of losing it through mechanical vibration. For car audio and smaller home audio enclosures, I like MDF. For large home enclosures or large walls for subs, plywood is a better choice. Just expect to need some extra sound deadening with the plywood! I hope this helps! Signaturecntrain Hello Everyone !!! Thanks for the answers. |
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