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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Car Audio / April 2006Flipping the subs out?
I have two 15" Audiobahn AW1571SE subs, and I was thinking about flipping the subs outward because I love the flame design that Audiobahn does with the magnet covers and because I have limited depth dimensions for the box i must build. Some may get confused on what im asking here, so ill clarify a bit. I want the cone of my speakers to face into the box, leaving the magnet structure outward. I've seen pictures of this done, but I honestly have no idea how it sounds or if it even works. Any help would be truly appreciated :) Thanks, Kris > I have two 15" Audiobahn AW1571SE subs, and I was thinking about > flipping the subs outward because I love the flame design that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > pictures of this done, but I honestly have no idea how it sounds or if > it even works. Any help would be truly appreciated :) It should work fine. Functionally, there's no difference. Technically, there will be a small increase in the enclosure volume, since it's no longer being reduced by the space occupied by the speaker cone and basket, but it should have little or no effect on your overall sound unless you're running a VERY carefully tuned ported box or something. --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0617-2, 04/26/2006 Tested on: 4/28/2006 12:30:19 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com Kris, MOSFET, a regular on this group, has done this and has nothing but great things to say about it. I'm sure he'll chime in soon... Tony  Signature2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition Clarion DRZ9255 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and Xenon X1200.1 Amplifiers, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and Focal 130HCs For Rear Fill, Image Dynamics IDMAX10 D4 v.3 Sub 2001 Chevy S10 ZR2 Pioneer DEH-P9600MP Head Unit, Phoenix Gold Ti500.4 Amp, Focal 165HC Speakers & Image Dynamics ID8 D4 v.3 Sub 2006 Mustang GT Coupe Thanks for the intro, Tony! Yes, I've tried it both ways with my MTX subs and I don't notice any difference sound-wise. I have them on the outside now because of two main reasons A) it looks cool (hey, I'm honest) and B) I don't need to go out and buy speaker grills this way (well, I could use the waffle grills I had on my old JL subs, but they look SOOOO old-fashioned). Here I go again...You can see a picture of my subs at: http://www428.pair.com/mosfet/mtx.html MOSFET > Kris, > > MOSFET, a regular on this group, has done this and has nothing but great > things to say about it. I'm sure he'll chime in soon... > > Tony I've got to show mine also. Its a concept box, so it rather looks like a.s, and isn't finished, but it shows my subs mounted inverted: http://kamikos.com/pics/box-out3a.jpg Brandonb > Thanks for the intro, Tony! > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > MOSFET WOW! That's impressive Brandon! How does it sound? MOSFET > I've got to show mine also. Its a concept box, so it rather looks like > a.s, and isn't finished, but it shows my subs mounted inverted: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> >> MOSFET Its gets very loud (but not measured yet). That's the ABC box I was testing, taken with my phone's camera. So far notes seem to have very little difference from each other, although you can tell them apart in a tone sweep. I'm uncertain if I want to finish it and make it look pretty and build in the side areas or just go back to a ported or sealed box that would certainly be a lot smaller. That one comes up to about 6 cubic feet including the wood. It was meant to fit under my Jeep's pullout cargo tarp. Brandonb > WOW! That's impressive Brandon! How does it sound? > > MOSFET > I have two 15" Audiobahn AW1571SE subs, and I was thinking about > flipping the subs outward because I love the flame design that [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Thanks, > Kris I have done this before in the past and it really makes no difference that I could tell. The only thing you have to remember to do is flip the positive and the negative on the sub itself, so that the sub pushed the correct way. I have a single competition Audiobahn 15" and it requires at least 3 cubic feet of air space, so you might want to re-think using a small box for two 15's. > I have done this before in the past and it really makes no > difference that I could tell. The only thing you have to remember to > do is flip the positive and the negative on the sub itself, so that the > sub pushed the correct way. That's only REALLY an issue if there are other subs that they need to be in phase with. --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0617-2, 04/26/2006 Tested on: 4/28/2006 1:57:57 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com Do you think that bu not reversing the wires the signal is getting a phase shift of 180 as is what a feature of some amps. | > I have done this before in the past and it really makes no | > difference that I could tell. The only thing you have to remember to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] | avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. | http://www.avast.com WTF? >Do you think that bu not reversing the wires the signal is getting a phase >shift of 180 as is what a feature of some amps. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >| avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. >| http://www.avast.com > Do you think that bu not reversing the wires the signal is getting a phase > shift of 180 as is what a feature of some amps. Uh... what? --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0617-3, 04/28/2006 Tested on: 4/28/2006 9:46:17 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com Come on people a little explaination is what I need. Why I think like that? Put 1.5 volt battery on the driver. Where does the cone move when fitted inside-out or outside-in. Another way to ask my question. If the speaker wires are switched then does the signal get a phase shift. Many thanks to you!!! | > Do you think that bu not reversing the wires the signal is getting a phase | > shift of 180 as is what a feature of some amps. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] | avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. | http://www.avast.com > Come on people a little explaination is what I need. Why I think like that? > Put 1.5 volt battery on the driver. Where does the cone move when fitted [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Many thanks to you!!! Audio signals are alternating current (AC). The waveform goes both positive and negative. Take your battery and connect it to the terminals the other way. Switch it back and forth repeatedly, a few hundred times per second. That's what the audio signal is doing to the speaker. Phase is only REALLY important in relation to other speakers - for example, hook your battery to one speaker positive-to-positive, and the other positive-to-negative, so one speaker moves in and the other moves out. If you do that with an audio signal, the movements of the two cones will generate sound waves that essentially cancel each other out, and you get very little sound. As long as the two speakers are moving the same direction, ie. are in phase with each other, you probably won't notice a difference. *Note: there is a common wisdom, particularly in studios, that positive-phase bass has more "punch" than reverse-phase, when the initial attack of the note drives the cone outward instead of inward, but with the subs burried away in the back of your car, the difference will likely NOT be noticeable. --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0617-3, 04/28/2006 Tested on: 4/29/2006 11:15:10 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com I think he's saying that some amps have a 180 degree phase shift button that you can push instead of switching the wires at the sub. same thing. SignatureKU40 > I think he's saying that some amps have a 180 degree phase shift button > that you can push instead of switching the wires at the sub. same > thing. Very few that I've ever seen. My point was, reverse phase is not really an issue to begin with, unless there's something else that the subs would be out of phase FROM. --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0617-3, 04/28/2006 Tested on: 4/28/2006 9:47:08 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com Wow guys, thanks for the amount of imput. The reason the enclosure is small is because I have a camaro, and you can imagine the amount of space I have to work with in one :) The box will be approximately 38 inches long, 17inches in height, and 6 inches deep; giving me a total of about 1.7 Cubic Ft if I use 1/2 thick particle board. The subs themself need 1.0-1.25 c.ft. per sub, and i figure the magnet structure takes up quite a bit of bulk when inside the box, so if i factor the magnet structure out of the equation, the subs in actuality need a lot less air volume. I may be wrong on this assumption, however. What does it sound like when you don't have enough cubic volume for your subs? "giving me a total of about 1.7 Cubic Ft if I use 1/2 thick particle board." You might want to seriously consider using at least 3/4 inch particle board. For two 15s, there's gonna be a lot of flexing with 1/2 inch. Tony Signature2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition Clarion DRZ9255 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and Xenon X1200.1 Amplifiers, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and Focal 130HCs For Rear Fill, Image Dynamics IDMAX10 D4 v.3 Sub 2001 Chevy S10 ZR2 Pioneer DEH-P9600MP Head Unit, Phoenix Gold Ti500.4 Amp, Focal 165HC Speakers & Image Dynamics ID8 D4 v.3 Sub 2006 Mustang GT Coupe 1/2 inch thick yikes >Wow guys, thanks for the amount of imput. The reason the enclosure is >small is because I have a camaro, and you can imagine the amount of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >less air volume. I may be wrong on this assumption, however. What does >it sound like when you don't have enough cubic volume for your subs? You dont get the BUMP that your probably looking for since you have two 15's. My mtx 1501d's have a 180 degree phase shift button. >> I think he's saying that some amps have a 180 degree phase shift button >> that you can push instead of switching the wires at the sub. same [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. >http://www.avast.com >> I think he's saying that some amps have a 180 degree phase shift button >> that you can push instead of switching the wires at the sub. same [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > My point was, reverse phase is not really an issue to begin with, unless > there's something else that the subs would be out of phase FROM. Quite a few nowadays do, at least of the mono class D amps. Of course, most headunits I've seen have a 180 degree sub phase shift on them as well, so the wiring really isn't an issue as long as they match each other. Brandonb Matt Ion Wrote: > My point was, reverse phase is not really an issue to begin with, > unless > there's something else that the subs would be out of phase FROM. such as mids that everyone has? Even if you have a crossover on them, the mids will still play some of the same stuff your subs will, and I guarantee you can notice it. SignatureKU40 > Matt Ion Wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the mids will still play some of the same stuff your subs will, and I > guarantee you can notice it. Yes, but unless the mids are on the same plane and aimed the same direction as the subs, determining the actual "correct" phase is tricky at best. Most designs will have their mids facing up (off the rear deck) or inward (from rear side panels) and the subs facing forward or rearward, which will introduce all manner of other phase issues as well; switching the polarity on the subs may make things better OR worse. --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0617-3, 04/28/2006 Tested on: 4/29/2006 11:18:16 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com A lot of HU's have that feature as well. I think all Alpine decks have a reverse polarity for subs function. MOSFET > I think he's saying that some amps have a 180 degree phase shift button > that you can push instead of switching the wires at the sub. same > thing. >I have two 15" Audiobahn AW1571SE subs, and I was thinking about >flipping the subs outward because I love the flame design that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >pictures of this done, but I honestly have no idea how it sounds or if >it even works. Any help would be truly appreciated :) Thats fine, and I try to do it especially when I'm Isobariking. Two back to back. Even makes the overall enclosure size smaller yet. greg Kris, the best thing that you can do is give it a shot. I've had personal experiences in which inverting the subs actually improved the sound, and others were my opinion was that the sound was worse after the change. I have customers who will only mount their subs in the inverted fashion, because they sware that the sound quality is better (regardless of what the DB meter shows:). I agree with most people who have responded to you -- you probably won't notice a difference and if you do, it will probably be a positive change. Don http://www.piousaudio.com Cool guys, ill take youre advise on using 3/4in particle board, the reduction of volume should be minimal nonetheless. However, could someone tell me would happen if my speakers don't have enough air volume? > Cool guys, ill take youre advise on using 3/4in particle board, No no no no no. Medium density fibreboard, aka MDF, aka "medite". NEVER particle board for speaker enclosures, and ESPECIALLY not for sub enclosures. --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0617-3, 04/28/2006 Tested on: 4/28/2006 7:02:24 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com > Cool guys, ill take youre advise on using 3/4in particle board, the > reduction of volume should be minimal nonetheless. However, could > someone tell me would happen if my speakers don't have enough air > volume? They can be DESTROYED in a VIOLENT EXPLOSION! Just kidding. Well, in a sealed enclosure the air volume behind the speaker cone acts as sort of a spring (acoustic suspension). If you don't have enough air, your spring will be too "taught" (kind of makes sense), and cone excursion will be reduced (which means lower SPL per watt of power). Of course, if you have a very powerful amplifier this can actually be kind of a good thing (providing it isn't TOO small a space) as this can control the motion of the cone VERY well (meaning very TIGHT, ACCURATE bass). MOSFET well that is true, i'm not arguing with you there. Phase is a very good thing to play with on all your speakers to get optimal results (my passenger side mid is 180 degrees out of phase with the rest of the speakers in my system). my argument was that if his phase in relation to his other speakers was best at 0 degrees (from a 0 or 180 degree option on the amp or HU) when the sub was mounted normally, when he inverts it he'll want to flip the polarity to 180 degrees, in effect keeping it in the same phase with his other speakers as it was when the speaker faced outwards. SignatureKU40 |
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