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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Car Audio / August 2006Custom MP3 car audio solution
I have an old system that I want to strip out & make into a Windows XP box that does nothing but house MP3's of my entire CD collection, & play them through Winamp. However, I want this in my van. I've been looking at ways to do this inexpensively, & I found the iMON VFD bundle here: http://www.soundgraph.com/Eng_/Products/imon25.aspx?topMenu=2&subMenu=1&leftMenu=25 In any event, the software allows you to use the remote control to control Winamp, so I had thought maybe I could mount the VFD w/ knob in the dash (like any other audio deck) & run cables back to the PC, which will likely sit behind the driver's seat somewhere. However, after reading some reviews, I found out that not only do you need a USB cable to connect (which is easily extendable), you also need to tie directly into the PC's power supply, which can be done w/ the included 24-pin cable adapter. My question is, does anyone else know a possible way around this, i.e. a 24-pin cable extension (really long, like several feet), or some other way I can accomplish this? I think this would be an awesome setup to have - no more radio, just endless MP3 goodness...but I need to figure out a way to make it work first. Any thoughts? > I have an old system that I want to strip out & make into a Windows > XP box that does nothing but house MP3's of my entire CD collection, > & play them through Winamp. However, I want this in my van. Makes more sense to start with a laptop. > I've been looking at ways to do this inexpensively, > & I found the iMON VFD bundle here: > http://www.soundgraph.com/Eng_/Products/imon25.aspx?topMenu=2&subMenu=1&leftMenu=25 > In any event, the software allows you to use the remote control to > control Winamp, so I had thought maybe I could mount the VFD w/ knob [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > endless MP3 goodness...but I need to figure out a way to make it work > first. Any thoughts? Makes more sense to start with a decent mp3 player. > > I have an old system that I want to strip out & make into a Windows > > XP box that does nothing but house MP3's of my entire CD collection, [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Makes more sense to start with a decent mp3 player. The problem is, I can't afford the $400 60GB iPod that I want; secondly, that may not be enough to store all the MP3s I want (at 192kbps) to store. In essense, I want to take my entire music collection with me @ 192Kbps, which a 60GB iPod just won't do. >>> I have an old system that I want to strip out & make into a Windows >>> XP box that does nothing but house MP3's of my entire CD collection, [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> >> Makes more sense to start with a decent mp3 player. > The problem is, I can't afford the $400 60GB iPod that I want; OK, in that case it makes more sense to start with a surplus laptop. > secondly, that may not be enough to store all the MP3s I want > (at 192kbps) to store. In essense, I want to take my entire music > collection with me @ 192Kbps, which a 60GB iPod just won't do. OK, but there are real downsides in starting with a desktop system when you want to use it in a van. Makes more sense to start with a laptop and add an extra hard drive via USB or firewire if you need more space. The only "surplus" laptop I have is an old Win98 Acer beast that is hardly capable of doing what I want, even if I did add a secondary HDD via USB. Besides, that would be unweildly compared to a neatly compact custom case mod, I would think. Although having the laptop screen would come in handy... > >>> I have an old system that I want to strip out & make into a Windows > >>> XP box that does nothing but house MP3's of my entire CD collection, [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > when you want to use it in a van. Makes more sense to start with a laptop > and add an extra hard drive via USB or firewire if you need more space. > The only "surplus" laptop I have is an old Win98 Acer beast that is hardly > capable of doing what I want, even if I did add a secondary HDD via USB. There's plenty of others available like on ebay. > Besides, that would be unweildly compared to a > neatly compact custom case mod, I would think. 'think' again. > Although having the laptop screen would come in handy... It'd likely be more practical to have a small lcd screen mounted in the dash, plugged into the laptop external monitor connector. The fundamental problem with using a desktop system is the inverter you need to power it and the mess that the power cabling involves. You dont need any of that with a laptop. >>>>> I have an old system that I want to strip out & make into a >>>>> Windows XP box that does nothing but house MP3's of my entire CD [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >> laptop and add an extra hard drive via USB or firewire if you need >> more space. >> The only "surplus" laptop I have is an old Win98 Acer beast that is hardly >> capable of doing what I want, even if I did add a secondary HDD via USB. > >There's plenty of others available like on ebay. And if 60GB isn't enough, the typically sized laptop drive may not be either. >> Besides, that would be unweildly compared to a >> neatly compact custom case mod, I would think. > >'think' again. "Think" that it doesn't matter a whole lot, a half taken apart laptop is butt-ugly, a whole one looks too hackish, and one recased is same situation as non-laptop parts, but about 2 dozen cubic inches smaller comparing like peripherals (IF for some reason OP would make due with laptop optical, HDD, etc. >> Although having the laptop screen would come in handy... > >It'd likely be more practical to have a small lcd screen mounted >in the dash, plugged into the laptop external monitor connector. Quite possibly, I didn't check on what features that in-dask product did that was linked previously. IF it is well designed for the purpose, it could be enough for MP3. Not everything needs VGA display. >The fundamental problem with using a desktop system is >the inverter you need to power it and the mess that the >power cabling involves. > >You dont need any of that with a laptop. Oh? A desktop could run from a ~13.x volt electrical system, I mean a PSU merely designed for this as many EPIA/et al. are. A laptop still needs the power adapter which is a similar small switching PSU, though step-UP and only one output. Splitting hairs really, while the laptop could be cheaper, it might not be. There are actually people who build these things, and they often use the EPIA-esque boards, though there is one other benefit to the laptop, that having a battery it's immune to voltage depression or cut-out when starting the car (van). > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote >>> The only "surplus" laptop I have is an old Win98 Acer beast that is >>> hardly capable of doing what I want, even if I did add a secondary >>> HDD via USB. >> There's plenty of others available like on ebay. > And if 60GB isn't enough, the typically sized laptop drive may not be either. Trivial to add whatever is required in USB/firewire addons. >>> Besides, that would be unweildly compared to a >>> neatly compact custom case mod, I would think. >> 'think' again. > "Think" that it doesn't matter a whole lot, > a half taken apart laptop is butt-ugly, No need to take it apart at all, stupid. > a whole one looks too hackish, and one recased is same > situation as non-laptop parts, but about 2 dozen cubic inches > smaller comparing like peripherals (IF for some reason OP > would make due with laptop optical, HDD, etc. Makes much more sense to just use a laptop. >>> Although having the laptop screen would come in handy... >> It'd likely be more practical to have a small lcd screen mounted >> in the dash, plugged into the laptop external monitor connector. > Quite possibly, I didn't check on what features that > in-dask product did that was linked previously. IF > it is well designed for the purpose, it could be > enough for MP3. Not everything needs VGA display. Never said it did, just that thats a convenient way to do it. >> The fundamental problem with using a desktop system is >> the inverter you need to power it and the mess that the >> power cabling involves. >> You dont need any of that with a laptop. > Oh? > A desktop could run from a ~13.x volt electrical system, I > mean a PSU merely designed for this as many EPIA/et al. are. Makes a hell of a lot more sense to use a laptop instead. > A laptop still needs the power adapter which is a similar small > switching PSU, though step-UP and only one output.Splitting > hairs really, while the laptop could be cheaper, it might not be. There's more involved than the price. Powering from the car is trivially doable with any laptop. Not so easy otherwise. > There are actually people who build these things, and they > often use the EPIA-esque boards, though there is one other > benefit to the laptop, that having a battery it's immune to > voltage depression or cut-out when starting the car (van). And you just plug the readily available bits together. >I have an old system that I want to strip out & make into a Windows XP >box [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >goodness...but I need to figure out a way to make it work first. Any >thoughts? You most likely don't really need it to tie into the PC PSU, just to have a common ground to it and to supply the correct voltage. For example, if it uses 5V, you could run that 5V from the PC, as it's already on a USB cable anyway (up to 500mA), or a single wire (if chassis is common ground to everything), or a pair of wires, more likely terminated ina molex 4 pin socket as seen on hard drives/etc. Of course this will require some soldering, crimping, etc, all the basic things needed to do these kinds of custom jobs where an OEM wiring harness isn't available. You should be able to figure out by the pass-through connector, what power it uses and go from there. Another power source is the vehicle 12V, using a step-down regulator of some sort. If it doesnt' use much power, even a cheap and dirty linear regulator with an insulated case, screwed onto the back of the metal casing (it "looks" metal?) if not elsewhere. However, it appears this device also allows powering on via remote control, which is probably implemented by using the 5VSB from the PSU, as well as shorting the PS-On pins remotely to turn the system on. If you have your computer set to turn on an alternate way or be always-on with vehicle ignition it is not a problem, but you will lose the ability to turn system on if it's not wired back to the ATX connector one way or another. Once again if you wanted to cut, splice, solder or crimp, you can just extend the appropriate leads as necessary, rather than having to run all 24 wires from the PSU cable. So there's some flexibility, it depends on how you want to do it. Nice. I'm not sure I'd need to have the "power-on" feature tied in; I think I could handle powering it on manually - that wouldn't be a problem. It's not like I plan on using the thing extensively on short trips in town (5 blocks here & there), but more for when I go visit my folks or travel for other things. That's when it will really come in handy. I have a post on SoundGraph's website basically asking the same thing - I wonder if they'll echo that in terms of using the USB for power & data or if there HAS to be power coming from somewhere else regardless of the "power-on" feature. > >I have an old system that I want to strip out & make into a Windows XP > >box [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > all 24 wires from the PSU cable. So there's some > flexibility, it depends on how you want to do it. >Nice. I'm not sure I'd need to have the "power-on" feature tied in; I >think I could handle powering it on manually - that wouldn't be a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >power & data or if there HAS to be power coming from somewhere else >regardless of the "power-on" feature. I didn't look over that website thoroughly, you might see if you can dig up a detailed spec sheet or other more technical documentation.... and/or a really good picture of the tap it makes into that ATX PSU connector. Even so, if you're stringing the USB cable anyway, it might be as well to go ahead and put down a second cable... easier to add the features now than go back and fiddle with it later. Presuming it does as written previously, you'd need a cable from PSU PS-On pin, a supply line (if over the USB cable isn't enough current or wrong voltage). If the PSU shares ground with the chassis and you can ground it all, you only need these two wires. The PS-On line out to ground is chassis ground, as is the power ground (though odds are good they're already part of the same ground plane on the board, depending on how well this gadget is made). Maybe it does more than I'm envisioning though, you might email their tech support (giving your email address this way) requesting for the spec sheets if not linked anywhere else. Having a car-based computer is certainly a cool idea in theory. I have kicked the idea around myself as I have my old computer (a Pentium II) just sitting around in my garage gathering dust. But in practice, it has one MAJOR drawback: boot-up lag time. Even a one or two year old Pentium 4 takes several minutes to boot up Windows 95/98 or XP. If you think about much of the driving we do (to the local "stop-and-rob" or the video store down the street) it just doesn't make any sense as your in-car computer will be ready to play MP3's right about the same time you reach your destination. This just isn't a problem at home or in the office where we always leave our computers on, but it would be in a car. However, an MP3 equiped head-unit is ready to go when you turn the key. And of course, the cost of portable MP3 players (like the iPod) are going down everyday. Most HU (head units) today are equiped to handle an input from another source, like an MP3 player. In my car, I have a portable DVD player connected to my HU, you can see pictures of my system at: http://www428.pair.com/mosfet/mtx.html These portable DVD units have become VERY inexpensive and you can play DVD's recorded with MP3's (which will hold over 5 gigs of MP3's). True, not as much as an iPod, but for many people, that's their entire music collection all on one disc. I think in the end the eventual costs (you will need an LCD monitor, power transformer, etc.) in both dollars a AND TIME of trying to retrofit a PC into a car would be more than just going the HU/iPod (or any other portable MP3 player) route. My $.02, MOSFET >Having a car-based computer is certainly a cool idea in theory. I have >kicked the idea around myself as I have my old computer (a Pentium II) just >sitting around in my garage gathering dust. > >But in practice, it has one MAJOR drawback: boot-up lag time. Even a one or >two year old Pentium 4 takes several minutes to boot up Windows 95/98 or XP. One a fully configured desktop system, having lots of stuff loaded into the background, yes it can take well over one minute, upwards of two. On a lightly configured desktop system, not even as stripped-down as an MP3 player could be, it is easily possible to make it boot in closer to 30 seconds, even less if the bios is very fast or it's coming out of hybernation (there is also a way to hibernate and have it not "re-" hibernate, so the shutdown sequence is not important, every time it boots it reloads the correct config. Even booting off a far slower device than a modern HDD, it can boot (rather than come up from hibernation) in less than one minute with XP, and even faster with Win98lite. >If you think about much of the driving we do (to the local "stop-and-rob" or >the video store down the street) it just doesn't make any sense as your >in-car computer will be ready to play MP3's right about the same time you >reach your destination. This just isn't a problem at home or in the office >where we always leave our computers on, but it would be in a car. Not true at all, even if it took 2-3 minutes. If you find yourself driving somewhere that only takes a minute or two you might consider walking to save the startup wear on the car. >However, an MP3 equiped head-unit is ready to go when you turn the key. And >of course, the cost of portable MP3 players (like the iPod) are going down [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >into a car would be more than just going the HU/iPod (or any other portable >MP3 player) route. One important factor may be how much storage space is needed. Personally I wouldn't go to so much trouble for MP3s, rather than a lossless format, but even with MP3 an avid music fan could have more GB than a DVD would hold, and they might not want the compromises of the portable players like sound quality. Granted many building car computers use bad quality integrated audio anyway but at least there's the option for better when it's modular. > On a lightly configured desktop system, not even as > stripped-down as an MP3 player could be, it is easily [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > hibernate, so the shutdown sequence is not important, every > time it boots it reloads the correct config. By "coming out of hybernation mode", I assume you mean that the computer is still "on" even when the car is off. Perhaps I don't fully understand what EXACTLY hibernation mode entails, but I have always believed it meant the computer was still "on" (at least to some small degree), which means it would still draw power even when the car is off. I suppose this would be an acceptable compromise as long as the current draw while in "standby mode" was very, very small (and would not run the battery dead after three-four days of sitting without running). If that is possible then this idea becomes MUCH more feasable. Perhaps the system can be configured to INSTANTLY go into stanby mode when the ignition is turned off. That would certainly address the issue of "lag-time" and might take it off the table. Now don't get me wrong. I think a computer in the car could be REALLY handy. Besides being about to play MP3's/movies/music video's.etc., there are other functions a computer could provide in a car (wireless LAN communication for Email, Web access, navigation, a printer, etc.). I'm not saying that computers in the car is a bad idea, in fact, I suspect HU's in the near future will more and more begin to resemble computers with small built in HD's, SD card ports (some already have these types of ports in front of the HU), larger color displays, more supported media formats (like JPEG's, AVI files, MOV files, etc.). The future looks VERY exciting for the world of in car head units. And the best part is that prices are dropping every day. I just feel like the mony/time spent on trying to reasemble an existing PC to integrate within a car presents all sort of problems that devices SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED for the automotive environment do not have. Again, IMHO, that's the way I see it anyway. MOSFET >> On a lightly configured desktop system, not even as >> stripped-down as an MP3 player could be, it is easily [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> hibernate, so the shutdown sequence is not important, every >> time it boots it reloads the correct config. > By "coming out of hybernation mode", I assume you mean that the > computer is still "on" even when the car is off. Perhaps I don't > fully understand what EXACTLY hibernation mode entails, but I have > always believed it meant the computer was still "on" (at least to > some small degree), Nope, it means that the ram contents were written to the hib file on the drive and the ram is reloaded from the hib file when the system is turned on. > which means it would still draw power even when the car is off. Thats sleep, nothing like hibernate. > I suppose this would be an acceptable compromise as long as > the current draw while in "standby mode" was very, very small [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > go into stanby mode when the ignition is turned off. That would > certainly address the issue of "lag-time" and might take it off the table. And laptops do that better than desktops. > Now don't get me wrong. I think a computer in the car could be REALLY > handy. Besides being about to play MP3's/movies/music video's.etc., > there are other functions a computer could provide in a car (wireless > LAN communication for Email, Web access, navigation, a printer, etc.). And that is a lot easier to do with a laptop than a desktop and you could just unplug it and take it out of the car as required etc too. > I'm not saying that computers in the car is a bad idea, in fact, > I suspect HU's in the near future will more and more begin to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > files, etc.). The future looks VERY exciting for the world of in car > head units. And the best part is that prices are dropping every day. Yeah, the 60G ipods are a ripoff price wise, tho thats mostly due to the hard drives they use, no need for that in a car, the 2.5" laptop drives are much better value and perfectly viable in a car when you dont need the robustness or low power demand that you get with the drives used in 60G ipods. > I just feel like the mony/time spent on trying to reasemble an existing > PC to integrate within a car presents all sort of problems that devices > SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED for the automotive environment do not have. Yep, which is why it makes a lot more sense to use a laptop instead of a butchered desktop. > Again, IMHO, that's the way I see it anyway. Me too. t > And that is a lot easier to do with a laptop than a desktop and you > could just unplug it and take it out of the car as required etc too. DAMN GOOD POINT. A laptop ALREADY has the monitor, a 12 volt adaptor, AND most do not use a traditional mouse (VERY hard to use in a car). Truly, a taptop is the way to go. MOSFET >t >> And that is a lot easier to do with a laptop than a desktop and you >> could just unplug it and take it out of the car as required etc too. >> >DAMN GOOD POINT. Not at all, it's not easier, there's nothing less to do or unplug with a laptop. >A laptop ALREADY has the monitor, Yes, and it may be just an additional cost that is a waste of money , because you can't just mount an entire laptop inside the dash, it still has to have a remote screen. >a 12 volt adaptor, which is bad. you ideally do not want an adapter, you want the PSU inside same box so you don't have extra tethered stuff going everywhere. >AND >most do not use a traditional mouse (VERY hard to use in a car). You seem to be ignoring the purpose, it's an integrated system, not a "whip it out and put it on your lap system". Again like the display, the touchpad has to be remotely mounted. You have to either tear apart and hack a remote mount for it, or just add one (or a trackball whatever IF you actually need a pointer, which the OP has mentioned no need for as an MP3 device), same as with the non-laptop box. >Truly, a >taptop is the way to go. A laptop could work, but you and Rod are not thinking things through much, there are plenty of examples of car PCs out there that demonstrate different ideas for different needs. > MOSFET <ntanner@wavecable.com> wrote >>> And that is a lot easier to do with a laptop than a desktop and you >>> could just unplug it and take it out of the car as required etc too. >> DAMN GOOD POINT. > Not at all, it's not easier, there's nothing less to do or > unplug with a laptop. Corse its easier with the initial setup and with a laptop you can use it out of the car easily if you need to too. >> A laptop ALREADY has the monitor, > Yes, and it may be just an additional cost that is a waste > of money , because you can't just mount an entire laptop > inside the dash, it still has to have a remote screen. Small LCD monitors dont cost that much. >> a 12 volt adaptor, > which is bad. Bullshit. > you ideally do not want an adapter, you want the PSU inside > same box so you don't have extra tethered stuff going everywhere. Mindless stuff. You need an inverter or a special PSU with the butchered desktop anyway. >> AND most do not use a traditional mouse (VERY hard to use in a car). > You seem to be ignoring the purpose, it's an integrated > system, not a "whip it out and put it on your lap system". Thats the advantage of using a laptop, you can have both trivially. > Again like the display, the touchpad has to be remotely mounted. Nope, just a receiver for a remote. > You have to either tear apart and hack a remote mount for it, Nope, just plug it in. > or just add one (or a trackball whatever IF you actually > need a pointer, which the OP has mentioned no need > for as an MP3 device), same as with the non-laptop box. But you dont have to modify the laptop at all, just plug it in. >> Truly, a taptop is the way to go. > A laptop could work, but you and Rod are not thinking things through much, You're the one into the significantly higher effort of a modified desktop with its much more expensive specialist PSU and kludged connection to the ATX power connector. A laptop leaves that for dead, bog standard dirt cheap car power adapter, plug everything you need into the laptop, still use it as a laptop if you need a laptop too. > there are plenty of examples of car PCs out there > that demonstrate different ideas for different needs. And using a modified surplus desktop system is an abortion compared with using a bog standard laptop. >> MOSFET <ntanner@wavecable.com> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Corse its easier with the initial setup and with a laptop >you can use it out of the car easily if you need to too. Nope, because we're not talking about "use a computer in a car", we're talking about "INTEGRATED INTO CAR" >>> A laptop ALREADY has the monitor, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Small LCD monitors dont cost that much. Never claimed they did, but nevertheless, having the laptop screen will be for regular use, unnecessary and possibly an additional expense, and possibly even additional labor to remove that display if the desire was the smallest device possible. >>> a 12 volt adaptor, > >> which is bad. > >Bullshit. You may want extra things dongled off the box but most people won't. Plus, you have to either hack off the lighter adapter anyway and direct wire it, or tie up the lighter outlet. It is desirable to have everything needed on one of two places. 1) Inside the dash (or immediately blew the dash in a console, like the touchpad or trackball) 2) Remote system box. >> you ideally do not want an adapter, you want the PSU inside >> same box so you don't have extra tethered stuff going everywhere. > >Mindless stuff. You need an inverter or a special >PSU with the butchered desktop anyway. yes, "special" PSU, a ready made part available for purchase at several places online. Imagine that, buying something meant to do exactly what you want instead of having a dongled or hacked up solution. >>> AND most do not use a traditional mouse (VERY hard to use in a car). > >> You seem to be ignoring the purpose, it's an integrated >> system, not a "whip it out and put it on your lap system". > >Thats the advantage of using a laptop, you can have both trivially. If you feel buying the correct PSU is a difficult thing, you ought not bother with the rest as that's pretty quick and easy... easier in fact, than settling on that used laptop that was suggested previously. >> Again like the display, the touchpad has to be remotely mounted. > >Nope, just a receiver for a remote. The touchpad has to be mounted in a convenient spot for the user to access it, else the whole project was a bit of a waste. That spot is often NOT where the rest of the system is. Hence, no matter how you try to spin it, the laptop has no advantages here unless you pull out the touchpad and build a custom frame for it, which is possible, but then touchpads aren't too expensive either, here's a touchpad or trackball for $1/1.50 each. I don't know the pinout on the tracball but I have a couple of the touchpads around here somewhere, it wasn't hard to figure out pinout to attach a ribbon cable-PS2 converter. >> You have to either tear apart and hack a remote mount for it, > >Nope, just plug it in. You seem to be thinking of something entirely different than an integrated-in-car, system. You're only thinking "wires strung everywhere, USE a computer in a car". That's fine, but it can be done a lot better, more professional looking too. >> or just add one (or a trackball whatever IF you actually >> need a pointer, which the OP has mentioned no need >> for as an MP3 device), same as with the non-laptop box. > >But you dont have to modify the laptop at all, just plug it in. if you want it messy, yes you can just plug it in the same as you could a flex-or-smaller ATX board in tiny case. The laptop still has no advantage here except being thinner, but unless you pick a very small (and possibly more expensive, modern) laptop, also wider and deeper than sub-flex ATX. >>> Truly, a taptop is the way to go. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >desktop with its much more expensive specialist PSU and >kludged connection to the ATX power connector. First of all, "desktop" is a term you throw around as if it might be some giant box. It isn't, necessarily. If you can't think of a way to do it well, and can't be bothered to do any research, you are particularly unfit to advocate one alternative over another. >A laptop leaves that for dead, bog standard dirt cheap >car power adapter, plug everything you need into the >laptop, still use it as a laptop if you need a laptop too. I can see you still don't understand. The whole idea here is to NOT have it sitting out so you can use it like some other device, rather to have it completely integrated and transparent to the car occupants except of course for a well placed display and UI. >> there are plenty of examples of car PCs out there >> that demonstrate different ideas for different needs. > >And using a modified surplus desktop system is an >abortion compared with using a bog standard laptop. You are clueless of what the alternative is to a laptop. miniATX case miniATX board 12V DC input ATX PSU It works fine and those who have spent the time, unlike you Rod, have made the choice. That doesn't mean it's hard, or impossible to use a laptop instead, or disassemble the laptop for a more integrated system, but none of these supposed advantages are true. > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote >>> MOSFET <ntanner@wavecable.com> wrote >>>>> And that is a lot easier to do with a laptop than a desktop and >>>>> you could just unplug it and take it out of the car as required >>>>> etc too. >>>> DAMN GOOD POINT. >>> Not at all, it's not easier, there's nothing less to do or >>> unplug with a laptop. >> Corse its easier with the initial setup and with a laptop >> you can use it out of the car easily if you need to too. > Nope, Yep. > because we're not talking about "use a computer in a > car", we're talking about "INTEGRATED INTO CAR" Irrelevant to whether the laptop will be easier to integrate into the car when its got a full monitor and keyboard etc for convenient setup and for use out of the car if required too and no need to fart around with a special case and power supply either, completely bog standard components plugged into the laptop. No need to fart around with the ATX power connector either. >>>> A laptop ALREADY has the monitor, >>> Yes, and it may be just an additional cost that is a waste >>> of money , because you can't just mount an entire laptop >>> inside the dash, it still has to have a remote screen. >> Small LCD monitors dont cost that much. > Never claimed they did, but nevertheless, having > the laptop screen will be for regular use, Wrong, JUST for the setup, not for regular use. You have a small LCD monitor in the dash for regular use. > unnecessary and possibly an additional expense, He's going to need something in the dash in either config, and a small LCD monitor thats plugged into the laptop will be cheaper than that special he cited. > and possibly even additional labor to remove that > display if the desire was the smallest device possible. That would be a terminally stupid thing to do, if you want the smallest device possible, the only thing that makes any sense is one of the smallest laptops. >>>> a 12 volt adaptor, >>> which is bad. >> Bullshit. > You may want extra things dongled off the box but most people won't. You get no say what so ever on what most people want. Anyone with a clue prefers a bog standard dirt cheap laptop car adapter and not a much more expensive and specialised power supply for the butchered PC that can run of the car 12V supply. > Plus, you have to either hack off the lighter adapter > anyway and direct wire it, or tie up the lighter outlet. Just as true of the butchered desktop. > It is desirable to have everything needed on one of two places. Not when its a much more expensive specialised power supply. > 1) Inside the dash (or immediately blew the dash > in a console, like the touchpad or trackball) > 2) Remote system box. Perfectly feasible with the laptop and much more convenient if you need a laptop out of the car as well. Completely bog standard dirt cheap laptop components. >>> you ideally do not want an adapter, you want the PSU inside >>> same box so you don't have extra tethered stuff going everywhere. >> Mindless stuff. You need an inverter or a special >> PSU with the butchered desktop anyway. > yes, "special" PSU, a ready made part > available for purchase at several places online. Vastly more floggers of car adapters for laptops, at much better prices too. > Imagine that, buying something meant to do exactly what > you want instead of having a dongled or hacked up solution. Mindless stuff. The laptop car adapters dont need any hacking up. >>>> AND most do not use a traditional mouse >>>> (VERY hard to use in a car). >>> You seem to be ignoring the purpose, it's an integrated >>> system, not a "whip it out and put it on your lap system". >> Thats the advantage of using a laptop, you can have both trivially. > If you feel buying the correct PSU is a difficult thing, Nope, just pointless and much higher priced than a bog standard laptop car power adapter. > you ought not bother with the rest as that's pretty > quick and easy... easier in fact, than settling on > that used laptop that was suggested previously. Wrong again with the new case required, the fact that that dinosaur wont sleep properly, no screen or keyboard for the initial config, etc etc etc. >>> Again like the display, the touchpad has to be remotely mounted. >> Nope, just a receiver for a remote. > The touchpad has to be mounted in a convenient spot for the > user to access it, else the whole project was a bit of a waste. You aint established that there needs to be a touchpad. Just a remote and a small LCD monitor in the dash is all you need. > That spot is often NOT where the rest of the system is. > Hence, no matter how you try to spin it, the laptop has > no advantages here unless you pull out the touchpad and > build a custom frame for it, Wrong again when you use a remote instead of the touchpad. > which is possible, but then touchpads aren't too expensive > either, here's a touchpad or trackball for $1/1.50 each. > I don't know the pinout on the tracball but I have a couple > of the touchpads around here somewhere, it wasn't hard > to figure out pinout to attach a ribbon cable-PS2 converter. Lot easier to use a remote. Trivially buyable. >>> You have to either tear apart and hack a remote mount for it, >> Nope, just plug it in. > You seem to be thinking of something entirely > different than an integrated-in-car, system. Wrong, as always. > You're only thinking "wires strung > everywhere, USE a computer in a car". Wrong, as always. Same number of wires as your abortion. > That's fine, but it can be done a lot > better, more professional looking too. Not a f.cking clue, as always. >>> or just add one (or a trackball whatever IF you actually >>> need a pointer, which the OP has mentioned no need >>> for as an MP3 device), same as with the non-laptop box. >> But you dont have to modify the laptop at all, just plug it in. > if you want it messy, yes you can just plug it in the same > as you could a flex-or-smaller ATX board in tiny case. Wrong, as always. Same number of wires as your abortion. > The laptop still has no advantage here except being thinner, Wrong, as always. It will sleep perfectly, unlikely your abortion which wont even sleep at all, and thats completely f.cked for that application. And you can use the laptop out of the car effortlessly too. > but unless you pick a very small (and possibly more expensive, > modern) laptop, also wider and deeper than sub-flex ATX. If you care about that, you get a very small laptop, stupid. Not a shred of rocket science required at all, even you should be able to manage that if someone was actually stupid enough to lend you a seeing eye dog and a white cane. >>>> Truly, a taptop is the way to go. >>> A laptop could work, Corse it will work. And a hell of a lot better than your abortion since its got a full screen and keyboard for easy config and will sleep properly. Unlike your complete abortion that doesnt even have a proper screen and keyboard and wont sleep either. >>> but you and Rod are not thinking things through much, >> You're the one into the significantly higher effort of a modified >> desktop with its much more expensive specialist PSU and >> kludged connection to the ATX power connector. > First of all, "desktop" is a term you throw > around as if it might be some giant box. Wrong again, I never said a word about the size of it. > It isn't, necessarily. Duh. > If you can't think of a way to do it well, and can't be > bothered to do any research, you are particularly > unfit to advocate one alternative over another. Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag. I am well aware of the small boxes, fuckwit child. >> A laptop leaves that for dead, bog standard dirt cheap >> car power adapter, plug everything you need into the >> laptop, still use it as a laptop if you need a laptop too. > I can see you still don't understand. Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag. > The whole idea here is to NOT have it sitting out so you can > use it like some other device, rather to have it completely > integrated and transparent to the car occupants except > of course for a well placed display and UI. Complete trivial to do with a laptop. USING COMPLETELY BOG STANDARD DIRT CHEAP EXTRA COMPONENTS TOO. And with the convenience of a decent screen and keyboard for initial setup and fiddling with the config and your complete abortion wont even sleep properly. Its a steaming turd for that reason alone, child. >>> there are plenty of examples of car PCs out there >>> that demonstrate different ideas for different needs. >> And using a modified surplus desktop system is an >> abortion compared with using a bog standard laptop. > You are clueless of what the alternative is to a laptop. Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag. > miniATX case > miniATX board > 12V DC input ATX PSU A laptop leaves that for dead, child. > It works fine and those who have spent the > time, unlike you Rod, have made the choice. Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag. > That doesn't mean it's hard, or impossible to use a laptop instead, Its actually EASIER with completely bog standard components, fuckwit child. > or disassemble the laptop for a more integrated system, Only a fool would be stupid enough to do that. You qualify. > but none of these supposed advantages are true. Pathetic, really. You've clearly never actually done it, if you had the lack of a screen and keyboard for config would have stood out like dogs balls. In spades when that abortion wont even sleep properly. >Irrelevant to whether the laptop will be easier to integrate >into the car when its got a full monitor and keyboard etc for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >into the laptop. No need to fart around with the ATX power >connector either. You are obviously, one again clueless but pretending to have insight on something you have never done yourself. There is no particular integration need for the full monitor and keyboard, the entire deveopment and testing process for the system is done before installation. Plugging stuff into a laptop will be a crude and theft prone solution. Go ahead and pretend otherwise but remeber, others have built car MP3 players and you could learn a lot from them. surely it makes sense to use small desktop computer parts as these are designed to be opened up new bits plugged and used, and updaded and rebuilt, whereas a laptop is designed to be built and used and used and when you want an upgrade you go out and buy a new one, the desktop pc parts are far more suitable as they will be far easier to put together and mount in a case, im thinking the ideal place for the pc would be in the spare wheel well in the back of most cars, just have you spare tire in the boot its the ideal case, its big enough a box could be made to fit in there and hold the case, yes cables will need to be run but your gonna need to run cables whatever you do, and with the way the wheel well is under the car and open to the world, it would also air cool the case to some exstent as for the mouse surely it would make sense to have it mounted in the door like a wing-mirror adjuster and instead of a laptop monitor, has anyone thought of a 19"rack mount monitor, some can be very neat and tidy i was looking at one to go with my own rack mount pc case > surely it makes sense to use small desktop computer parts as these are > designed to be opened up new bits plugged and used, and updaded and > rebuilt, whereas a laptop is designed to be built and used and used > and when you want an upgrade you go out and buy a new one, Its more complicated than that when all laptops can be powered in the car trivially, have a decent keyboard and screen for setup and convenient reconfig, troubleshooting, and all sleep out of the box. It makes more sense to plug what is required for a dash screen into a laptop than to fart around with a kludged up special desktop which may not even sleep properly and which will need either an inverter or a special expensive power supply. And with a laptop its completely trivial to use it for other stuff like checking your email etc at a wifi hotspot etc too. > the desktop pc parts are far more suitable Wrong, most obviously with the power supply. > as they will be far easier to put together and mount in a case, Thats already been done with a laptop. > im thinking the ideal place for the pc would be in the > spare wheel well in the back of most cars, just have > you spare tire in the boot its the ideal case, its big enough > a box could be made to fit in there and hold the case, You can put the laptop there if you want. > yes cables will need to be run but your > gonna need to run cables whatever you do, Yes. > and with the way the wheel well is under the car and open > to the world, it would also air cool the case to some exstent That's debatable with cars in the summer which get a lot hotter than normal domestic situations do. > as for the mouse surely it would make sense to have > it mounted in the door like a wing-mirror adjuster It makes more sense to have buttons on the dash display or a touchscreen dash display or a remote. > and instead of a laptop monitor, has anyone thought of a > 19"rack mount monitor, some can be very neat and tidy i > was looking at one to go with my own rack mount pc case There's plenty of small LCD monitors that would go fine in a dash. >surely it makes sense to use small desktop computer parts as these are >designed to be opened up new bits plugged and used, and updaded and >rebuilt, whereas a laptop is designed to be built and used and used and >when you want an upgrade you go out and buy a new one, Unlike with a desktop PC used for everything, car audio is a somewhat fixed target. The ideal board /cpu/memory combo will not need new bits plugged in, unless there were some part failure requiring replacement. >the desktop pc parts are far more suitable as they will be far easier >to put together and mount in a case, im thinking the ideal place for >the pc would be in the spare wheel well in the back of most cars, just >have you spare tire in the boot Actually no, right above a tire is where the most vibration is transmitted to the vehicle. It "could" work, if you had sufficient cushioning, but even though a drive is supposedly able to survive larger shocks, it isn't a good idea to continually expose it to lesser shocks. If it were designed with the shock resistance in mind like using smaller heatsink, more support under the board and on cables (instead of only physically fixed at the plug, where they plug into the board), and flash memory instead of mechanical HDD, it would help. >its the ideal case, its big enough a box could be made to fit in there >and hold the case, >yes cables will need to be run but your gonna need to run cables >whatever you do, >and with the way the wheel well is under the car and open to the world, >it would also air cool the case to some exstent Open to the world is a bad idea. What about when it rains? How about extreme high or low temps? With enough care it could be engineered to survive the extreme temps better, but just taking a typical desktop or notebook and running at spec, it will tend to be problematic in many climates which either get too hot or cold for a portion of the year. >as for the mouse surely it would make sense to have it mounted in the >door like a wing-mirror adjuster > >and instead of a laptop monitor, has anyone thought of a 19"rack mount >monitor, some can be very neat and tidy i was looking at one to go with >my own rack mount pc case That is far too large, unless only the back-seat occupants where to use it. dc-dc costs about £20, if you cant afford that then y start the project And parts in the pc will need to be upgraded, technology is moving one fast, how can you honestly be sure that in the next 5 years a new format doesnt come out to replace mp3 and then youll be left with an old machine that couldnt run the new programme technology will move on and you will want to upgrade, and it seems really stupid to have a piece of crap laptop in your car slowly getting out dated when you can have a nice pc that you can keep on upgrading and keeping up to date and plus with a laptop, how are you gonna reach the cd drive, i though this was suppose to be intergrated, therefore the computer would be out of the way, so having to pull it out everytime you get a cd you want to play will be a pain whereas with a pc you can have the drive mounted in the dash > dc-dc costs about £20, if you cant afford that then y start the > project [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > want to play will be a pain whereas with a pc you can have the drive > mounted in the dash Even easier with a laptop, use a USB2 cd drive in the dash. >> dc-dc costs about £20, if you cant afford that then y start the >> project [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Even easier with a laptop, use a USB2 cd drive in the dash. LOL No Rod, whether a laptop or not, it won't make the tiniest difference. Are you seriously suggesting using USB2 optical drives on a laptop is somehow enabled or different than on desktop? Perhaps if the desktop were so old that USB didn't exist at the time, but same goes for the laptop. If your comment is only vaguely suggesting the smaller size of a laptop optical drive is useful, a laptop's internal drive is not USB2, and an aftermarket small external USB2 drive is again, not any less likely to work on a desktop than laptop. Again I will mention that this whole topic of car audio (MP3) player is NOT A NEW FRONTIER, your random nonsense is disproven by myriad existing implementations, websites, books, etc... people who have actually DONE IT ALREADY. > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote >> dc-dc costs about £20, if you cant afford that then y start the project >>> And parts in the pc will need to be upgraded, technology is moving >>> one fast, how can you honestly be sure that in the next 5 years a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>> getting out dated when you can have a nice pc that you can keep on >>> upgrading and keeping up to date >>> and plus with a laptop, how are you gonna reach the cd drive, i >>> though this was suppose to be intergrated, therefore the computer >>> would be out of the way, so having to pull it out everytime you get >>> a cd you want to play will be a pain whereas with a pc you can have >>> the drive mounted in the dash >> Even easier with a laptop, use a USB2 cd drive in the dash. > LOL Your village eejut immitations are SO convincing, child. > No Rod, whether a laptop or not, it won't make the tiniest difference. Wrong, as always. > Are you seriously suggesting using USB2 optical drives on > a laptop is somehow enabled or different than on desktop? Nope, that it makes more sense to have a USB2 optical drive mounted in the dash for the cd drive than to have a special small box with the CD drive in it mounted in the dash, stupid. With the laptop you have a full screen and keyboard for config and minor stuff like fixing the inevitable glitches etc. > Perhaps if the desktop were so old that USB didn't > exist at the time, but same goes for the laptop. Having fun thrashing that straw man are you child ? > If your comment is only vaguely suggesting > the smaller size of a laptop optical drive is useful, Nope. > a laptop's internal drive is not USB2, Duh. > and an aftermarket small external USB2 drive is again, > not any less likely to work on a desktop than laptop. Never said it would, child. WITH A USB2 OPTICAL DRIVE YOU ONLY HAVE TO MOUNT THAT IN THE DASH, NOT THE REST OF THE SYSTEM. YES YOU CAN DO THAT WITH BOTH A LAPTOP AND A NON LAPTOP BUT THE LAPTOP IS BETTER FOR CONFIG ETC BECAUSE IT HAS A FULL SCREEN AND KEYBOARD THAT THE NON LAPTOP DOESNT HAVE STANDARD. > Again I will mention that this whole topic of car > audio (MP3) player is NOT A NEW FRONTIER, NO ONE EVER SAID IT WAS YOU PATHETIC EXCUSE FOR A BULLSHIT ARTIST. > your random nonsense is disproven by myriad existing implementations, > websites, books, etc... people who have actually DONE IT ALREADY. NEVER EVER SAID IT COULDNT BE DONE WITH A NON LAPTOP, FUCKWIT CHILD. I JUST SAID THAT THE END RESULT IS MUCH BETTER WITH A LAPTOP, FUCKWIT CHILD. >dc-dc costs about £20, if you cant afford that then y start the >project > >And parts in the pc will need to be upgraded, No, that's ridiculous. >technology is moving one >fast, how can you honestly be sure that in the next 5 years a new >format doesnt come out to replace mp3... So are you then going to re-encode your entire music library to this new format? Fact is, we already have LOSSLESS audio formats. There is nothing superior to this sonically, and if you are only going to seek some new format to increase compression, the same issue remains, that being a programmable computer, you can add this support and it merely needs be able to decode faster than realtime playback. For audio, this is no challenge to any PII or newer CPU based platform. If taking about video, yes this is an entirely different matter but we aren't talking about a "Customer Video Car Solution" (see thread title). >...and then youll be left with an >old machine that couldnt run the new programme >technology will move on and you will want to upgrade, No, you are completely wrong. Using any semi-modern technology, certainly the system parts OP has already mentioned, it will be plenty for any audio format that comes along. We are not building a Doom 5 gaming system! >...and it seems >really stupid to have a piece of crap laptop in your car slowly getting >out dated when you can have a nice pc that you can keep on upgrading >and keeping up to date You are clueless. There is no such thing as "outdated", for an embedded device, it either does what it was meant to, or doesn't. You have no reasonable expectation that it won't, as even 10 year old systems can do MP3 today! >and plus with a laptop, how are you gonna reach the cd drive, Why would you want to "reach the CD drive"? That's a bit counter-productive, thinking you'l be using CDs, but let's suppose you do- a CD drive can be mounted anywhere, for audio playback it doesn't even have to be connected to the system data bus (SATA or PATA). >i though >this was suppose to be intergrated, therefore the computer would be out >of the way, so having to pull it out everytime you get a cd you want to >play will be a pain whereas with a pc you can have the drive mounted in >the dash I think you don't understand the core requirements of an audio player. It's not a hard thing to do and will never need upgraded for most uses... the most likely upgrade might be if someone wanted a faster wifi connection for uploading music, or a larger HDD, or a different front-end control unit... none of which is a particularly difficult thing unless there is simply no room in the system chassis for this, as even with a PCI right-angle adapter a wifi card might not fit in an very small chassis, but if the system has USB2 that offers another expansion port. >> I suppose this would be an acceptable compromise as long as >> the current draw while in "standby mode" was very, very small [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >And laptops do that better than desktops. Nope, a properly configured desktop does same thing, or an improperly configured laptop may have problems. >> Now don't get me wrong. I think a computer in the car could be REALLY >> handy. Besides being about to play MP3's/movies/music video's.etc., [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >And that is a lot easier to do with a laptop than a desktop and you >could just unplug it and take it out of the car as required etc too. Are you somehow deluded into thinking he'd weld the desktop box in? Here's the difference: - Desktop box is slightly taller. - Desktop box has no keyboard on it (unless one is added) - Desktop box has no monitor on it. - Desktop box has entirety of the PSU (board) inside it, only a jack for the vehicle 12V in, instead of a bricklike/wart step-up supply. >> I just feel like the mony/time spent on trying to reasemble an existing >> PC to integrate within a car presents all sort of problems that devices >> SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED for the automotive environment do not have. > >Yep, which is why it makes a lot more sense >to use a laptop instead of a butchered desktop. You don't seem to know WTF you're talking about (again). The typical car PC uses a flex (or smaller) ATX board, a complimentary power board, and a barely-large-enough custom case. It unplugs and plugs same as a laptop, has one fewer parts than a laptop (no external power brick). Butchering would only happen if one tried to use incompatible parts. > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote >>> I suppose this would be an acceptable compromise as long as >>> the current draw while in "standby mode" was very, very small [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>> go into stanby mode when the ignition is turned off. That would >>> certainly address the issue of "lag-time" and might take it off the table. >> And laptops do that better than desktops. > Nope, Yep. > a properly configured desktop does same thing, Nope, that dinosaur he plans to butcher likely wont even sleep properly. And decent laptop will sleep fine. > or an improperly configured laptop may have problems. Mindlessly silly. No config required at all, just plug in what is required. >>> Now don't get me wrong. I think a computer in the car could be >>> REALLY handy. Besides being about to play MP3's/movies/music >>> video's.etc., there are other functions a computer could provide in a car >>> (wireless LAN communication for Email, Web access, navigation, a printer, etc.). >> And that is a lot easier to do with a laptop than a desktop and you >> could just unplug it and take it out of the car as required etc too. > Are you somehow deluded into thinking he'd weld the desktop box in? Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag. > Here's the difference: > - Desktop box is slightly taller. MUCH taller. > - Desktop box has no keyboard on it (unless one is added) Irrelevant and a nuisance for config. > - Desktop box has no monitor on it. Irrelevant and a nuisance for config. > - Desktop box has entirety of the PSU (board) inside it, only a jack > for the vehicle 12V in, instead of a bricklike/wart step-up supply. No practical difference. And thats a much more expensives specialist PSU than a bog standard dirt cheap power supply for a laptop. And you can use the laptop as a laptop if you want to out of the car too. >>> I just feel like the mony/time spent on trying to reasemble an existing >>> PC to integrate within a car presents all sort of problems that devices >>> SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED for the automotive environment do not have. >> Yep, which is why it makes a lot more sense >> to use a laptop instead of a butchered desktop. > You don't seem to know WTF you're talking about (again). Easy to claim, child. > The typical car PC uses a flex (or smaller) ATX board, a complimentary > power board, and a barely-large-enough custom case. No news to me, child. > It unplugs and plugs same as a laptop, has one > fewer parts than a laptop (no external power brick). Still has to be connected to the car power, so thats no difference. The dinosaur he plans to butcher likely wont even sleep properly, any decent laptop will sleep fine. > Butchering would only happen if one tried to use incompatible parts. Pity about the butchering involved in getting into the power supply output. Keep desperately digging, you'll be out in china any day now, AGAIN. >> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Nope, that dinosaur he plans to butcher likely wont even sleep properly. Rod, you're an idiot. I never wrote "butcher", nor to use some retired old system. You seem to be the one who can't grasp what a car MP3 player is usually like. > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote >>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote >>>>> I suppose this would be an acceptable compromise as long as >>>>> the current draw while in "standby mode" was very, very small [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>>>> certainly address the issue of "lag-time" and might take it off >>>>> the table. >>>> And laptops do that better than desktops. >>> Nope, >> Yep. >>> a properly configured desktop does same thing, >> Nope, that dinosaur he plans to butcher likely wont even sleep properly. > Rod, you're an idiot. gutless, you're a terminal fuckwit/pathetic excuse for a bullshit artist. > I never wrote "butcher", You didnt need to, fuckwit child. > nor to use some retired old system. Pity the OP clearly did, fuckwit child. > You seem to be the one who can't grasp > what a car MP3 player is usually like. You cant even manage to read and comprehend what the OP actually asked about, fuckwit child. AND EVEN IF YOU DO PLAN TO START FROM SCRATCH WITH ALL NEW HARDWARE, IT MAKES A HELL OF A LOT MORE SENSE TO START WITH A LAPTOP BECAUSE THAT HAS THE SCREEN AND KEYBOARD FOR INITIAL CONFIG AND CONVENIENT TROUBLESHOOTING WHEN IT GLITCHES, THAN IT EVER DOES TO ASSEMBLE A COLLECTION OF MORE EXPENSIVE AND SPECIALIST CRAP WHICH WILL HAVE LESS CAPABILITY THAN ANY LAPTOP WILL HAVE. Alright kids, break it up. This isn't a pissing contest, it's a discusion forum. Try to stay away from personal slurs and obsenities. Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree. CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!!!! MOSFET >Alright kids, break it up. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >MOSFET This is a common trend for Rod. Anyone who bothers can Google search for car MP3 players and see examples, even tutorials. There are books on the subject as well, this is not some new frontier but a known set of tasks and there is plenty of advice out there on how to do it well. Unfortuately for Rod, he jumped the gun, taking a side then determined to argue it into the ground. Nevermind the vast majority of evidence, Rod wants to use a laptop thus the normal way most people do it, couldn't possibly work as well in his mind. >> On a lightly configured desktop system, not even as >> stripped-down as an MP3 player could be, it is easily [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >By "coming out of hybernation mode", I assume you mean that the computer is >still "on" even when the car is off. No, it can not only be in S5 (the official "off" state of a desktop), but it could even be 100% disconnected, no 5VSB support either. >Perhaps I don't fully understand what >EXACTLY hibernation mode entails, but I have always believed it meant the >computer was still "on" (at least to some small degree), which means it >would still draw power even when the car is off. The system memory contents are written to a file on the hard drive. The next time windows boots, it reads in the file rather than a normal (full) boot process. It doesn't really matter though, 98se or Xp can both boot in under one minute. >I suppose this would be an >acceptable compromise as long as the current draw while in "standby mode" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >INSTANTLY go into stanby mode when the ignition is turned off. That would >certainly address the issue of "lag-time" and might take it off the table. If there's no write catching, and since there shouldn't be a lot of disk writes on an MP3 player, the system could conceivably just cut out with power-off of whatever you wanted (like one of the vehicle subsystem's power circuit). With a perpetual hibernation setting, it does not have to re-hibernate. While this would not be ideal for a typical, dynamic desktop use, for a fixed function system it can work fine. >Now don't get me wrong. I think a computer in the car could be REALLY >handy. Besides being about to play MP3's/movies/music video's.etc., there >are other functions a computer could provide in a car (wireless LAN >communication for Email, Web access, navigation, a printer, etc.). I'm pretty much the opposite on these things, I don't think an embedded car system needs a printer or anything more than audio, and of course wifi if outside communication is desired. Video playback, maybe, but this is one area where a more traditional DVD player may suffice as wel since you have to have the DVD to rip it anyway, else it's a long transfer getting a few GB of video data over wifi into the car box storage. You could instead put the DVD player IN the car computer, but when think car computer I think specialized case, very small w/o floppy or CDROM. OP has a van though, I've no idea how much space is allotted. >I'm not >saying that computers in the car is a bad idea, in fact, I suspect HU's in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >world of in car head units. And the best part is that prices are dropping >every day. The biggest issue may be the interface and tailoring the OS to what you want, or rather, being pleased with the available alternatives. Same goes for any piece of gear though, you either accept what's available or are one of the rare few who is competent enough and enough of a glutton for punishment to build the hardware from *scratch*. >I just feel like the mony/time spent on trying to reasemble an existing PC >to integrate within a car presents all sort of problems that devices >SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED for the automotive environment do not have. Again, >IMHO, that's the way I see it anyway. It's not hard, it just gets expensive if you're picky about certain custom cases, etc. There are forums and websites selling a lot of the specialized gear, even howtos out there if you Google search for 'em. and > they might not want the compromises of the portable players > like sound quality. And something else.... Frankly, I think my portable DVD player sounds GREAT playing MP3's over my HU (I use high-end cables to attach the DVD player to the Alpine). In fact, I can not tell the difference whether an MP3 is playing over my Alpine 9853 (an MP3 compatible HU) or through my Magnavox DVD player. I have actually experimented with this EXTENSIVELY (having my wife play the same MP3 over each source and then quickly A/B it, so I can't see which one she's using and I can't tell ANY difference). The reason for this I believe: two things. First, it's MP3 for Pete's sake. Even at higher bit rates, the SQ is just not the same as CD (there just always seems like somethings "missing" to me when I listen to an MP3, some hard to define quality best described as "openenss" or "pressense" or the quality of being "alive". Second, it's the car environment. In a car, the sound must compete with the engine noise, air-noise, tire vibration, etc. Even if very subtle differences do exist between certain formats and devices, these differences are difficult to discern in a moving car. It's easier if the car is parked with the engine running, and best if the car is parked and the engine is stopped (only then will these subtle differences possibly be heard). Of course, I have 38 year old years, and for much of those years I have listened to EAR BLEEDING bass in monster systems I have built. So perhaps I am not the best judge, but again, this is my opinion. MOSFET > and >> they might not want the compromises of the portable players [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >I can not tell the difference whether an MP3 is playing over my Alpine 9853 >(an MP3 compatible HU) or through my Magnavox DVD player. Are you suggesting your Magnavox DVD player is HQ? First let's define a few terms. To really appreciate the difference in quality, you need to use non-compressed formats, not MP3. A really good high-bitrate MP3 may reveal some differences but too often that alone is such a hinderance to quality that any other part of the audio chains' weakness may be masked. >I have actually >experimented with this EXTENSIVELY (having my wife play the same MP3 over >each source and then quickly A/B it, so I can't see which one she's using >and I can't tell ANY difference). Whatever makes you happy? I build my own amps, because I can hear the difference (and to all those lurkers out there who love to issue the blind ABX challenge, yes I can hear the difference between my amps and typical consumer gear. Maybe not high-end gear, depends on the gear, and uses it allows). >The reason for this I believe: two things. First, it's MP3 for Pete's sake. >Even at higher bit rates, the SQ is just not the same as CD (there just [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Even if very subtle differences do exist between certain formats and >devices, these differences are difficult to discern in a moving car. Sometimes, I don't turn the radio/etc off when I stop at a stop light, park, or whatever. I feel that arguing that lower quality is ok, means making concessions that will ultimately be worse. A small difference in one area, a small difference in another area, each of which may not sound different enough to discern on their own, additively can sound different. That doesn't mean I advocate using fancy technoflex silver wire and other exotic parts when uncalled for, but personally, I'd rather have 20W of really good sound than 500W of something I feel is passible because a car is noisier than a home. >It's >easier if the car is parked with the engine running, and best if the car is >parked and the engine is stopped (only then will these subtle differences >possibly be heard). Of course, I have 38 year old years, and for much of >those years I have listened to EAR BLEEDING bass in monster systems I have >built. So perhaps I am not the best judge, but again, this is my opinion. I've never been fond of high powered car subs, prefer lower taught bass but it's far harder to keep clean in a large metal shell (car). > Are you suggesting your Magnavox DVD player is HQ? Of course not. But I am suggesting that the sound quality of MP3's is about the same with the Magnavox as it is with my Alpine. With regular CD's I have NO DOUBT there is a difference in quality (though I NEVER play regular CD's on my Magnavox). Though the Magnavox is DEFINATELY NOT a high-end piece of audio equipment, I suspect the MP3 decoders used in virtually ALL consumer electronic devices are very similar (or identical). That's all I was talking about, MP3 SQ. MOSFET >> Are you suggesting your Magnavox DVD player is HQ? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >piece of audio equipment, I suspect the MP3 decoders used in virtually ALL >consumer electronic devices are very similar (or identical). It doesn't matter, the sound quality difference isn't just from the MP3 decoder, that is just one extra requirement and the rest of the system still has all the same requirements as it always did. Granted, starting out with low quality source, the difference isn't as audible. To me that is no excuse to settle for a lower quality system, it's a reason to move up to higher quality source. > >Of course not. But I am suggesting that the sound quality of MP3's is about > >the same with the Magnavox as it is with my Alpine. With regular CD's I [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > settle for a lower quality system, it's a reason to move up > to higher quality source. I'm not "settling" for anything. First, I love the MP3 format. While it may not be as good as regular CD, it comes pretty darn close. But because MP3 is not as good as CD that, to me, is even MORE reason to focus on SQ in a system (to compensate, perhaps, for the inadaqucies of the MP3 format). I am not talking about the rest of my system where I use high-end Phoenix Gold interconnects, high-end speaker wire, very good JL midbass drivers (I currently am auditioning some high-end McIntosh tweeters in my car for the front stage, which is bi-amped, I use NO passive X-overs in my system). BTW, these McIntosh soft-dome tweeters sound VERY good (extremelly crisp, but not fatigueing like my old MB Quart PTD25's). My point, again, was simply that I hear no difference between MP3's decoded by my Magnavox vs. my Alpine. That was ALL I was refering to. MOSFET >> >Of course not. But I am suggesting that the sound quality of MP3's is >about [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >MP3 is not as good as CD that, to me, is even MORE reason to focus on SQ in >a system (to compensate, perhaps, for the inadaqucies of the MP3 format). I disagree. Acknowledging it's not as good, means that you'll be able to hear the difference even more clearly on good equipment. This is a known fact, visit any audiophile forum and ask them.... I participate in 3 regularly. >I am not talking about the rest of my system where I use high-end Phoenix >Gold interconnects, high-end speaker wire, very good JL midbass drivers (I >currently am auditioning some high-end McIntosh tweeters in my car for the >front stage, which is bi-amped, I use NO passive X-overs in my system). >BTW, these McIntosh soft-dome tweeters sound VERY good (extremelly crisp, >but not fatigueing like my old MB Quart PTD25's). You're thinking like a high powered car amp nut, not like an audiophile. That's fine, if that's what you want. Your hearing may have degraded enough that you couldn't even hear the difference, perhaps. >My point, again, was simply that I hear no difference between MP3's decoded >by my Magnavox vs. my Alpine. That was ALL I was refering to. That's fine. Everyone has their own approach. The issue wasn't the decoding of the MP3 though, it was that the maximum possible quality of the decoded MP3 is one important parameter limited by the lossly nature of MP3, and the second important parameter is the overall audio quality of the device- in that regard it doesn't matter if it's decoding MP3s or not, but rather how it transmits ANY analog audio signal. The analog stages of an amp/pre are more important than the decoder today, as MP3 decoding is mature already but analog is back magic to today's digital engineers who pretend SNR is all there is. > The issue wasn't the decoding of the MP3 though, it was that > the maximum possible quality of the decoded MP3 is one [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > it's decoding MP3s or not, but rather how it transmits ANY > analog audio signal. OK, I'll concede that. The output stage of my Magnavox is certainly not high-end and may (to some degree) effect SQ. Fine. But I go back to my original point that in an automotive environment that difference simply is not audible. Look, I consider myself an audiophile (I am CONSTANTLY trying different combinations of high-end speakers and high-end tweeters up front in an attempt to reach "sonic nirvana"). At home I use Michael Greene Designs MD-80 speakers and I think I know how good speakers should sound (my CD player is California Audio Labs). So I know how jsut how good a CD can sound. So am I to gather from your "audiophile status" that you never use the MP3 format (nose a little too high in the air for those "commoner" formats)? If so, I pitty you. It's convience FAR AND AWAY makes up for the VERY SMALL degradation in SQ (a degradation, again, BARELY, if at all, discernable in a moving car). If you disagree with this assesment (an assesment, BTW, generally agreed upon by industry experts) than clearly we must agree to disagree. I, too, commonly read those other high-end groups and I subscribe to Stereophile, BTW. I have been listening to YEARS to those guys groaning and moaning about how the MP3 format is leading the industry towards poorer SQ formats, instead of better SQ formats. Just look at how poorly DVD-Audio is doing and that tells you all you need to know about where this industry is going. But don't kid yourself, there's a lot of "smoke and mirrors" in the world of high-end audio, as well. What about Shakti Stones and Marigio dots? What a bunch of crap. And this UTTERLY RIDICULOUS 10 year-old campaign that vinal LP's sound better than CD's if played on a $10,000 Rega turntable with a Conrad Johnson/Levinson/Krell/ amp. BS. CD's sound better, pure and simple. And adding a $500 Shaki stone (and all it is is a rock, BTW) will make absolutely no difference whatsover. But, remember, so much about the audio world is subjective. Do not forget this fact. It really all boils down to "whatever floats your boat". This is what I have concluded after over 20 years in and out of the industry (I worked for Phoenix Gold for a time). If you hear a difference adding a $500 rock or a tine blue Margio dot, MORE POWER TO YOU! MOSFET >But don't kid yourself, there's a lot of "smoke and mirrors" in the world of >high-end audio, as well. What about Shakti Stones and Marigio dots? What a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >simple. And adding a $500 Shaki stone (and all it is is a rock, BTW) will >make absolutely no difference whatsover. Yes there's lots of smoke and mirrors. In one forum you'll even hear of people proclaiming the metal composition of the FEET the amp stands on, make a difference. However, through all the smoke I see a common theme- do no harm. If someone wants to pretend that exotic wire or whatever is worth the obscene prices, it's their wallet, but at least these things don't generally harm the audio quality. On the other hand, MP3 is known to do so. If we were talking about what to use on a 256MB MP3 flash thumbdrive player, MP3 might necessarily be used, but when considering alternatives where the storage medium can hold several, even dozens or hundreds of GB of data, it makes no sense to use MP3 to me. > were talking about what to use on a 256MB MP3 flash > thumbdrive player, MP3 might necessarily be used, but when > considering alternatives where the storage medium can hold > several, even dozens or hundreds of GB of data, it makes no > sense to use MP3 to me. What do you mean? I'm not sure I'm getting your point. Are you advocating another compression format besides MP3? That's what it sounds like. You are saying that if you have hundreds of gigs to play with, then MP3 makes no sense. Wel |
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