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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Car Audio / October 2006

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Noob Ohm Issue 2 vs 8

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bob zee - 12 Oct 2006 17:04 GMT
I just recently aquired a few components -an amp and 2 subs.  I am not
very interested in SPL.  I am very interested in SQ.

Here is the amp that I have:
CrunchPZi 175.4  -1000 Watt (peak) 4 Channel Amplifier
and the specs for this amp:
1000W 2 / 3 / 4-Channel A/B Class Amplifier
175W x 4-Ch @ 4-Ohms or
250W x 4-Ch @ 2-Ohms or
500W x 2-Ch @ 4-Ohms Dynamic Music Watts

I have (2) of these subs:
Pioneer TS-W256DVC10" Dual Voice Coil Component Subwoofer
and the specs:
10" Component Subwoofers with 800 Watts Max. Power
350 Watts Nominal Power
4-Ohm Dual Voice Coil (DVC)
Recommended Enclosure Use: 0.65 ~ 1.25 Cubic Feet

My intentions are to run this amp in (2) channel mode - (1) channel for
each sub.  My question is this:  Since these are dual voice coil
speakers, should I wire them as 2ohm or wire them as 8ohm?  I don't
care to play my music extremely loud - I just want some dynamics,
clarity and quality!

I am really hoping someone can make me feel better about this mess.  I
sure get myself into some predicaments.

bob z.
D.Kreft - 12 Oct 2006 18:03 GMT
> Here is the amp that I have:
> CrunchPZi 175.4  -1000 Watt (peak) 4 Channel Amplifier
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 250W x 4-Ch @ 2-Ohms or
> 500W x 2-Ch @ 4-Ohms Dynamic Music Watts

I don't know what a "Dynamic Music Watt" is.

> My intentions are to run this amp in (2) channel mode - (1) channel for
> each sub.  My question is this:  Since these are dual voice coil
> speakers, should I wire them as 2ohm or wire them as 8ohm?  I don't
> care to play my music extremely loud - I just want some dynamics,
> clarity and quality!

It doesn't look like you can take your 4-channel amp and run it in
2-channel (bridged) mode on a 4 Ohm load. You'll need to wire the
individual coils in series. See "1 DVC driver with Voice Coils in
Series" at
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/support_pages.php?page_id=161 and do that
twice.

-dan
bob zee - 12 Oct 2006 18:19 GMT
> > 500W x 2-Ch @ 4-Ohms Dynamic Music Watts
>
> I don't know what a "Dynamic Music Watt" is.

I don't either!  Sure sounds cool, though, doesn't it?
:~)>

> It doesn't look like you can take your 4-channel amp and run it in
> 2-channel (bridged) mode on a 4 Ohm load. You'll need to wire the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> -dan

Then to keep it simple I am going to assume (1) channel and (1) sub
like in the picture.  My amp will then be pushing a sub with an 8 Ohm
load.  Is this correct?  This will not be any cause for me to worry, I
hope.

Thanks!
bob z.
D.Kreft - 12 Oct 2006 18:35 GMT
> Then to keep it simple I am going to assume (1) channel and (1) sub
> like in the picture.  My amp will then be pushing a sub with an 8 Ohm
> load.  Is this correct?

Just to be *crystal* clear...

0. You have a four-channel amp--we'll call those channels A, B, C, and
D.

1. Bridge A + B together to make channel "AB".
   Bridge C + D together to make channel "CD".
   You now effectively have a "two-channel" amp.

2. Wire the VC on one driver in series per the diagram to which I
pointed you.
   Do the same with the other driver.
   You now effectively have two 8 Ohm drivers.

3. Take one 8 Ohm driver and hook it up to channel AB.
   Take the other driver and hook it up to channel CD.
   You now have a two-channel amp powering two 8 Ohm speakers.

4. Relax.

-dan
bob zee - 12 Oct 2006 18:45 GMT
> Just to be *crystal* clear...
>
> 4. Relax.
>
> -dan

Thanks a ton.  You rock.

bob z.
Matt Ion - 12 Oct 2006 19:12 GMT
>>Here is the amp that I have:
>>CrunchPZi 175.4  -1000 Watt (peak) 4 Channel Amplifier
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I don't know what a "Dynamic Music Watt" is.

I would guess it's Crunch's non-technical term for "RMS".
Matt Ion - 12 Oct 2006 18:06 GMT
> I just recently aquired a few components -an amp and 2 subs.  I am not
> very interested in SPL.  I am very interested in SQ.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> I am really hoping someone can make me feel better about this mess.  I
> sure get myself into some predicaments.

From the specs you listed, it doesn't look like that amp will like a two-ohm
load running in two-channel mode, so you'll pretty much have to go with the
eight-ohm configuration.
bob zee - 12 Oct 2006 18:26 GMT
>  From the specs you listed, it doesn't look like that amp will like a two-ohm
> load running in two-channel mode, so you'll pretty much have to go with the
> eight-ohm configuration.

That is what I figured.  I was really just looking for some
confirmation.
What will 8ohm do to my SQ or am I worrying for no reason?

Thanks!
bob z.
Captain_Howdy - 12 Oct 2006 19:07 GMT
It will cut your power output in half. Seeing the wattage that you have listed
for this amp is in "Peak Power" you should get around 50 - 60 watts RMS per
coil cranked up. As for your SQ, I have always found that under powering a sub
sounds like a wet fart and I have also found this to be even more true when
using lite duty amps such as Crunch. My advice is to try it out for yourself
and see how you like it.

>That is what I figured.  I was really just looking for some
>confirmation.
>What will 8ohm do to my SQ or am I worrying for no reason?
>
>Thanks!
>bob z.
Matt Ion - 12 Oct 2006 19:18 GMT
> It will cut your power output in half. Seeing the wattage that you have listed
> for this amp is in "Peak Power" you should get around 50 - 60 watts RMS per
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>confirmation.
>>What will 8ohm do to my SQ or am I worrying for no reason?

One other option would be to run each pair of channels in mono rather than
bridged mode, then wire each coil individually to each channel, but that really
won't give you any more power, and can be tricky when setting levels properly to
match.

Frankly, you'll get more output and possibly cleaner sound by wiring the subs
for two ohms (coils in parallel) and simply running them off two of the four
channels without bridging.  The other two channels are left unused... or use
them for a pair of your full-range speakers, if you don't already have an amp
for those.
bob zee - 12 Oct 2006 19:28 GMT
> It will cut your power output in half. Seeing the wattage that you have listed
> for this amp is in "Peak Power" you should get around 50 - 60 watts RMS per
> coil cranked up. As for your SQ, I have always found that under powering a sub
> sounds like a wet fart and I have also found this to be even more true when
> using lite duty amps such as Crunch. My advice is to try it out for yourself
> and see how you like it.

I figured this was a light-duty amp considering the cost.  I am on a
budget, so this is what I could afford.  Depending on how this setup
sounds, I can see myself transferring this amp to the other car - a car
that has 4 speakers that will utilize all 4 channels of this amp.
I really appreciate your advice.  I was a little afraid to ask what
wattage would end up at each coil.  I didn't want it to sound like I
was just in it for the big numbers.  I really like a nice tight, clean,
punchy sound in my music.

There I go... starting to worry again.  Must relax, must relax, must
relax.
:~)>

Thanks!
bob z.
D.Kreft - 12 Oct 2006 19:43 GMT
> That is what I figured.  I was really just looking for some
> confirmation.
> What will 8ohm do to my SQ or am I worrying for no reason?

Bob, take a deep breath. Use the force. Go to your happy place. Relax.

Cross each bridge as you come to them--don't try to get it perfect the
first time around because, well, quite frankly it sounds like this
might be your first "go" at system building and it might not sound
perfect the first time around. Even systems setup by experts typically
need tweaking and tuning to get them to sound just right...and
sometimes even that doesn't work.

Just have fun with it. Follow carefully the instructions I've given you
thus far, follow the wiring diagrams, and check everything you do two
or three times. Modern amplifiers have lots of protection circuits in
them to keep you from doing something obcenely stupid and destroying
your amplifier. That's not to say you can be careless, only that you
don't have to sweat bullets here--it's all just a matter of "putting
tab A into slot B", tightening some screws and vacuuming-up after
yourself when you're done.

Running in 8 Ohms mono is effectively the same as running in 4 Ohms
stereo. While you won't get the absolute most power out of your
amplifier, you will definitely run cooler, you'll usually have greater
dynamic headroom and the damping factor will be higher. In short, sound
quality can actually be *better* with a higher load than with a lower
load. If you find that the subs aren't quite loud enough to keep up
with the rest of your system (or with your expectations), THEN you can
fall back to using just half of your amp bridged on a 4 Ohm
load...which will be louder but *might* not sound as good--it's all
very subjective and ultimately only you are going to be able to tell if
it "sounds good" or not. We're just a bunch of talking heads and it's
not our ears in your car.

-dan
bob zee - 12 Oct 2006 20:14 GMT
> Bob, take a deep breath. Use the force. Go to your happy place. Relax.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> perfect the first time around.
> -dan

Definitely my first real "go" at system building.  Thank you for the
positive encouragement.  I'll be in the garage this weekend cuttin,
strippin, and crimpin...
:~)>

Thanks so much
bob z.
Matt Ion - 13 Oct 2006 03:53 GMT
> Cross each bridge as you come to them--don't try to get it perfect the
> first time around because, well, quite frankly it sounds like this
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Just have fun with it.

What he said!  No matter what you do, Bob, it should be an improvement over NO
subs, so you really can't go wrong at this point :)
bob zee - 13 Oct 2006 12:32 GMT
> What he said!  No matter what you do, Bob, it should be an improvement over NO
> subs, so you really can't go wrong at this point :)

Heck yeah.  I have a 90 minute drive to work (same back home) and my
stock stereo is beginning to clip (?) and cut-out sooner and sooner
everyday.  I thought it was overheating, but it was 34° this morning.
I normally keep the volume at about 75% of full for my whole drive.
Today, I could obtain no more than 15 minutes of 75% and then it would
only 'clear up' at 50% volume.

bob z.
(2003 honda accord 2-door - stock 160w stereo)
Matt Ion - 13 Oct 2006 16:00 GMT
>>What he said!  No matter what you do, Bob, it should be an improvement over NO
>>subs, so you really can't go wrong at this point :)
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Today, I could obtain no more than 15 minutes of 75% and then it would
> only 'clear up' at 50% volume.

You know, if your stock system has no amp, I'd DEFINITELY recommend adding
one... like I said, you could run your subs wired for two ohms off two channels
of that amp, and your other speakers off the other two channels - even if you
have four speakers, you can wire the front and rear in parallel and run them off
the two remaining channels.  I have a similar setup in my car with a Kenwood
four-channel amp: two channels running the front and rear speakers parallelled,
and the other two bridged to run a single 10" JL sub.
FasDeth - 13 Oct 2006 02:16 GMT
> I just recently aquired a few components -an amp and 2 subs.  I am not
> very interested in SPL.  I am very interested in SQ.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> bob z.

You didn't list the specs for 3-Ch mode..
I'd run 3-Ch mode. If available...
I'd wire each sub for 8-Ohms
Hook both up to the bridged channel for a 4-Ohm load.
Use the 2 stereo channels for the front speakers.

                            FasDeth
bob zee - 13 Oct 2006 12:26 GMT
> You didn't list the specs for 3-Ch mode..
> I'd run 3-Ch mode. If available...
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>                             FasDeth

I can't find the specs for the 3-Channel mode.  Crunch doesn't want us
to know this info!
:-(

Good idea, though.  I just don't have decent speakers up front yet.  My
system will be lop-sided for a little while.

bob z.
Matt Ion - 13 Oct 2006 16:05 GMT
>>You didn't list the specs for 3-Ch mode..
>>I'd run 3-Ch mode. If available...
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Good idea, though.  I just don't have decent speakers up front yet.  My
> system will be lop-sided for a little while.

Three-channel just means one pair of channels runs bridged, the other pair
doesn't, so you'd get 500W @ 4 ohms for the bridged pair (as per your listed specs:
175W x 4-Ch @ 4-Ohms or
250W x 4-Ch @ 2-Ohms or
500W x 2-Ch @ 4-Ohms Dynamic Music Watts

Specs-wise, wiring the subs that way (500W output) wouldn't be much different
than running them as two ohm, each on its own channel (at 250W each).  There MAY
be some performance differences depending on whether the amp handles two-ohm
loads or bridged loads better, but probably nothing significant.
D.Kreft - 13 Oct 2006 18:45 GMT
> > CrunchPZi 175.4  -1000 Watt (peak) 4 Channel Amplifier
> > and the specs for this amp:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> You didn't list the specs for 3-Ch mode..

I'd think that the output for 3-channel mode would be easily derived
from the stats he gave, namely:

    175W x 2 (@ 4 Ohm) /  500W x 1 (@ 4 Ohm)

Although I'm thinking that 175 might be a typo that should be "125"
instead. The *actual* output may vary (I'm not familiar with Crunchy
amps), but I think it's a pretty safe bet to say it'll be pretty darn
close to what I'm throwing-out here.

-dan
 
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