Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
HomeAnnouncements
Discussion Groups
By Brand
BMWChevroletDodgeFordGMHondaLexusMercedes-BenzNissanPeugeotToyotaVolkswagenOther Brands
By Topic
4x4 CarsRVsDrivingMaintenance & RepairCar AudioCollectible Cars
Country Specific
Australian ForumsUK Forums
ArticlesAuto InsuranceBuyingCars & TechnologyMaintenanceMiscellaneousSafety
DMV Resources
Related Topics
MotorcyclesBoatsMore Topics ...

Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / November 2009

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

The Automobile Subsidy

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Scott in SoCal - 03 Nov 2009 04:50 GMT
[Excerpt from "Suburban Nation" by Andres Duany and Elizabeth
Plater-Zybeck, pp. 94-7.]

But the real question is why so many drivers choose to sit for hours
in bumper-to-bumper traffic without seeking alternatives. Is it a
manifestation of some deep-seated self-loathing, or are people just
stupid? The answer is that people are actually quite smart, and their
decision to submit themselves to the misery of suburban commuting is a
sophisticated response to a set of circumstances that are as troubling
as their result. Automobile use is the intelligent choice for
Americans because it is what economists refer to as a "free good": the
consumer pays only a fraction of its true cost. The authors Stanley
Hart and Alvin Spivak have explained that:

We learn in first-year economics what happens when products or
services become "free" goods. The market functions chaotically; demand
goes through the roof. In most American cities, parking spaces, roads
and freeways are free goods. Local government services to the motorist
and to the trucking industry - traffic engineering, traffic control,
traffic lights, police and fire protection, street repair and
maintenance - are all free goods.

THE AUTOMOBILE SUBSIDY
To what extent is automobile use a "free" good? According to Hart and
Spivak, government subsidies for highways and parking alone amount to
between 8 and 10 percent of our gross national product, the equivalent
of a fuel tax of approximately $3.50 per gallon. If this tax were to
account for "soft" costs such as pollution cleanup and emergency
medical treatment, it would be as high as $9.00 per gallon. The cost
of these subsidies - approximately $5,000 per car per year - is passed
directly on to the American citizen in the form of increased prices
for products or, more often, as income, property, and sales taxes.

This means that the hidden costs of driving are paid by everyone: not
just drivers, but also those too old or too poor to drive a car. And
these people suffer doubly, as the very transit systems they count on
for mobility have gone out of business, unable to compete with the
heavily subsidized highways.

Even more irksome is the fact that spending on transit creates twice
as many new jobs as spending on highways. In fact, every billion
dollars reallocated from road-building to transit creates seven
thousand jobs.' Congress's recent $41 billion highway bill, had it
been allocated to transit, would have employed an additional
quarter-million people nationwide.

Because they do not pay the full price of driving, most car owners
choose to drive as much as possible. They are making the correct
economic decision, but not in a free-market economy. As Hart and
Spivak note, an appropriate analogy is Stalin's Gosplan, a Soviet
agency that set arbitrary "correct" prices for many consumer goods,
irrespective of their cost of production, with unsurprising results.
In the American version of Gosplan, gasoline costs one quarter of what
it did in 1929 (in real dollars). One need look no further for a
reason why American cities continue to sprawl into the countryside. In
Europe, where gasoline costs about four times the American price,
long-distance automotive commuting is the exclusive privilege of he
wealthy, and there is relatively little suburban sprawl.

The American Gosplan pertains to shipping as well. In the current
structure of subsidization, trucking is heavily favored over rail
transport, even though trucks consume fifteen times the fuel for the
equivalent job. The government pays a $300 billion subsidy to truckers
unthinkingly, while carefully scrutinizing every dollar allocated to
transit. Similarly, we try to solve our commuter traffic problems by
building highways instead of railways, even though it takes fifteen
lanes of highway to move as many people as one lane of track. This
predisposition toward automobile use is plainly evident in the
prevalent terminology: money spent on roads is called "highway
investment," while money spent on rails is called "transit subsidy."
The American Gosplan is not a conspiracy so much as a culture-albeit
one strongly supported by pervasive advertising-and it is probably
unrealistic to hope that legislators will soon take steps, such as
enacting a substantial gasoline tax, to allocate fairly the costs of
driving. Pressured by generous automobile industry contributions on
the one hand and a car-dependent public on the other, politicians have
lately been using gas-tax elimination as an election strategy, with
some success. But there is encouraging information suggesting that a
gas tax may not be the political suicide that most politicians
suspect. According to a recent Pew Foundation poll, 6o percent of
those asked favored a twenty-five-cent-per-gallon gas tax to slow
global warming.*

While there are many supposedly "anti-business" arguments for a higher
gas tax - from fighting global warming to supporting public transit -
the real justification is economic: subsidized automobile use is the
single largest violation of the free-market principle in U.S. fiscal
policy. Economic inefficiencies in this country due to automotive
subsidization are estimated at $700 billion annually, which powerfully
undermines America's ability to compete in the global economy.
elmer - 03 Nov 2009 05:07 GMT
> [Excerpt from "Suburban Nation" by Andres Duany and Elizabeth
> Plater-Zybeck, pp. 94-7.]
[quoted text clipped - 86 lines]
> subsidization are estimated at $700 billion annually, which powerfully
> undermines America's ability to compete in the global economy.

There is no alternative. There are no mass transits fr the majority of
Americans.
No one wants to sit packed like sardines in filthy units that do exist.
There has been no serious attempts to develop mass transit that is
plausible and desirable for commuting 20 miles or more that most
Citizens have to travel to and from work and to shop etc.
There is no reason to not have a fleet, of clean comfortable buses and
express lanes for them in Southern California for example. It doesn't
have to run on rails to be mass transit.
Larry Sheldon - 03 Nov 2009 14:32 GMT
>> [Excerpt from "Suburban Nation" by Andres Duany and Elizabeth
>> Plater-Zybeck, pp. 94-7.]
>>
>> But the real question is why so many drivers choose to sit for hours
>> in bumper-to-bumper traffic without seeking alternatives. Is it a
>> manifestation of some deep-seated self-loathing,

Since we know at this point that we have a typical
bigcityeastcoastcommunist rant, I stopped reading at this point.

Some of us moved to where that is rarely a problem -- even it the first
major snow storm of the year it rarely took me more than an hour to
cover the 23 miles home.

And I would rather sit in my car, with one or two of my friends or my
radio, perhaps sipping on my coffee, than stand like a sardine is a can
of smelly people who look like they might be inclined to do me harm as I
try to wold on to my brief case, wallet and a filthy strap against the
ministrations of a driver that seems to alternate from full accelerated
to panic stop every few seconds.

(Did that by the way for most of thirty years, and spent a lot of time
sitting and waiting when the system broke for reasons we rarely found
out about.  Having to run from stop to stop, stand in the crowd (and
maybe the rain) to "make connections" was a part that I was mostly able
to avoid.)

I'll not cast aspersions on those who choose to live under the tyranny
of the transit system, but I'm glad I was bright enough to save my money
and escape.
Scott in SoCal - 03 Nov 2009 14:57 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, Larry Sheldon <lfsheldon@gmail.com>
said:

>>> [Excerpt from "Suburban Nation" by Andres Duany and Elizabeth
>>> Plater-Zybeck, pp. 94-7.]
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Since we know at this point that we have a typical
>bigcityeastcoastcommunist rant, I stopped reading at this point.

Since you apparently prefer to wallow in ignorance rather than expose
yourself to new ideas, I stopped reading your posts at this point.
larrysheldonisalyingfuckinghypocrite - 03 Nov 2009 17:31 GMT
> Last time on rec.autos.driving, Larry Sheldon <lfshel...@gmail.com>
> said:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Since you apparently prefer to wallow in ignorance rather than expose
> yourself to new ideas, I stopped reading your posts at this point.

nice try Scott

you can see the ignoramuses you are dealing with

what they don't realize is they are paying for all these subsidies for
cars and roads, and esp trucks

but they expect transit to be clean, 100% efficient, WITHOUT subsidy
Matthew Russotto - 04 Nov 2009 16:45 GMT
>> Last time on rec.autos.driving, Larry Sheldon <lfshel...@gmail.com>
>> said:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>what they don't realize is they are paying for all these subsidies for
>cars and roads, and esp trucks

These "subsidies" are mostly the product of the fevered anti-car
mind.  Tolls and dedicated taxes pay for nearly all the cost of the
roads (the exceptions being mostly very local roads).  Car owners pay
the cost of purchase and maintainence of the cars themselves.  Parking
is paid for either by the driver, or by a (typically private)
individual or organization who sees a benefit in not charging drivers
to park on his property.

>but they expect transit to be clean, 100% efficient, WITHOUT subsidy

The _goal_ (rarely met) for transit is that the farebox pay for 50% of
its operating cost.  That's 50% of the operating cost, and 0% of the
capital cost.  Given that, for transit fans to complain that
automobiles are heavily subsidized is ludicrous.

As for trucks, assuming you mean cargo vehicles and not light trucks,
they claim they're subsidizing "four wheelers".   Others claim
otherwise.  In practice, it's not all that important; if they really
are paying less than their share of costs, and that is changed, the
cost will simply be passed on to those purchasing those goods... who
are mostly drivers.

Trying to focus on the various costs which can be claimed (fairly or
unfairly) as "subsidies" to drivers misses the big picture.  Which is
that there are so many drivers that any such subsidies _must_ come
mostly _from_ drivers as well.  So if you were to wave a magic wand
and all these "subsidies" would disappear, with the money going back
into the pocket of those providing them, and the costs charged
directly to drivers, _driving would not become unaffordable_.
Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 04 Nov 2009 17:51 GMT
On Nov 4, 11:45 am, russo...@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto)
wrote:

> These "subsidies" are mostly the product of the fevered anti-car
> mind.  Tolls and dedicated taxes pay for nearly all the cost of the
> roads (the exceptions being mostly very local roads).  

No, they do not.
Scott in SoCal - 05 Nov 2009 03:31 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew
Russotto) said:

>Trying to focus on the various costs which can be claimed (fairly or
>unfairly) as "subsidies" to drivers misses the big picture.  Which is
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>into the pocket of those providing them, and the costs charged
>directly to drivers, _driving would not become unaffordable_.

You are absolutely correct. Instead of taking our money while our
backs are turned, we would all pay that money directly and be fully
conscious of every dollar we spend. The fundamental change would be
this: roads, parking, highway patrol, etc. would no longer appear to
be "free goods." People could finally make the correct economic
decisions about which modes of transport to employ and when to employ
them. The transportation system would be free to evolve naturally into
an optimally balanced, optimally efficient one. No more
all-you-can-eat buffet; no more tragedy of the commons.

'Tis a change devoutly to be wished.
Mark Mathu - 05 Nov 2009 03:34 GMT
>You are absolutely correct. Instead of taking our money while our
>backs are turned, we would all pay that money directly and be fully
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>an optimally balanced, optimally efficient one. No more
>all-you-can-eat buffet; no more tragedy of the commons.

We would send land transportation back to where it was in the dark
ages.
Larry Sheldon - 05 Nov 2009 03:52 GMT
> We would send land transportation back to where it was in the dark
> ages.

Why be half way?  Let them send all of civilization back to the stone age?

We'll be there in another year or two, looks like.

Signature

Requiescas in pace o email              Two identifying characteristics
                                             of System Administrators:
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio        Infallibility, and the ability to
                                             learn from their mistakes.
Eppure si rinfresca

ICBM Targeting Information:
    http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs
    http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml

Scott in SoCal - 05 Nov 2009 14:40 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, Mark Mathu <mark@mathu.com> said:

>>You are absolutely correct. Instead of taking our money while our
>>backs are turned, we would all pay that money directly and be fully
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>We would send land transportation back to where it was in the dark
>ages.

You mean the way we did with that other 19th century technology: the
automobile?
Mark Mathu - 10 Nov 2009 05:37 GMT
>>>You are absolutely correct. Instead of taking our money while our
>>>backs are turned, we would all pay that money directly and be fully
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>You mean the way we did with that other 19th century technology: the
>automobile?

I don't consider the automobile to be "dark ages" technology.  

Public involvement in land transportation (planning, building,
operating) has played a big part in commerce getting to the point
where it is today, and hence raising our standard of living well above
what we had 1500 years ago.
Brent - 10 Nov 2009 05:57 GMT
>>>>You are absolutely correct. Instead of taking our money while our
>>>>backs are turned, we would all pay that money directly and be fully
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> where it is today, and hence raising our standard of living well above
> what we had 1500 years ago.

It may be that our standard of living increased inspite of what the
public planers did. They may have actually done harm to what
would have been had some different system developed.

Communist nations have had some great but empty highway systems that
ended up hurting the standard of living of the people further. It is
only after changes elsewhere in those nations that the roads become
useful to more than a few.
Scott in SoCal - 10 Nov 2009 06:03 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, Mark Mathu <mark@mathu.com> said:

>>>>You are absolutely correct. Instead of taking our money while our
>>>>backs are turned, we would all pay that money directly and be fully
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>I don't consider the automobile to be "dark ages" technology.  

I don't consider the train or the bus to be, either.

>Public involvement in land transportation (planning, building,
>operating) has played a big part in commerce getting to the point
>where it is today, and hence raising our standard of living well above
>what we had 1500 years ago.

Imagine how much higher that standard of living could be if we weren't
all slaves to the automobile (not to mention dependent on oil from
unstable foreing countries that all hate our guts).

Owning and operating a car costs many thousands of dollars per year.
Most American families own more than one. Imagine how much higher your
standard of living could be if you could save the costs of owning,
licensing, insuring, maintaining, and parking even one of your cars.
The Real Bev - 10 Nov 2009 06:10 GMT
> Last time on rec.autos.driving, Mark Mathu <mark@mathu.com> said:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> all slaves to the automobile (not to mention dependent on oil from
> unstable foreing countries that all hate our guts).

I would like to believe that we're still working on neutron bomb development.
The concept seems perfect.

> Owning and operating a car costs many thousands of dollars per year.
> Most American families own more than one. Imagine how much higher your
> standard of living could be if you could save the costs of owning,
> licensing, insuring, maintaining, and parking even one of your cars.

And how much lower it would be if we had to spend hours instead of minutes
every day traveling to essential or desirable destinations.  All things
considered, personal at-will transportation is easily worth a couple
$thousand/year.

Signature

Cheers, Bev
=====================================================
"It's too bad stupidity isn't painful." - A. S. LaVey

Scott in SoCal - 10 Nov 2009 15:14 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com>
said:

>> Owning and operating a car costs many thousands of dollars per year.
>> Most American families own more than one. Imagine how much higher your
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>And how much lower it would be if we had to spend hours instead of minutes
>every day traveling to essential or desirable destinations.

There was a time in this country when public transit operated on 5- to
10-minute headways and went to places that the majority of people
needed to go. The only reason it's no longer like that is because the
government began subsidizing the private automobile and smothering
transit. A simple policy change would start the pendulum swinging back
the other way.
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 10 Nov 2009 17:56 GMT
> There was a time in this country when public transit operated on 5- to
> 10-minute headways and went to places that the majority of people
> needed to go. The only reason it's no longer like that is because the
> government began subsidizing the private automobile and smothering
> transit. A simple policy change would start the pendulum swinging back
> the other way.

Exactly.

We had a popular high speed rail line and the govt condemned it and
used the ROW to build an expressway in its place.  This was called
"progress".  The highway became a death trap.  It was full of traffic
jams.  People missed the rail line, but then it was too late.
Clark F Morris - 10 Nov 2009 23:31 GMT
>> There was a time in this country when public transit operated on 5- to
>> 10-minute headways and went to places that the majority of people
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>"progress".  The highway became a death trap.  It was full of traffic
>jams.  People missed the rail line, but then it was too late.

What line are you referring to?
gpsman - 10 Nov 2009 06:32 GMT
> Imagine how much higher that standard of living could be if we weren't
> all slaves to the automobile (not to mention dependent on oil from
> unstable foreing countries that all hate our guts).

What would you suggest as a better alternative to the automobile?

> Owning and operating a car costs many thousands of dollars per year.

Sure, the way you do it, mindlessly.

> Most American families own more than one. Imagine how much higher your
> standard of living could be if you could save the costs of owning,
> licensing, insuring, maintaining, and parking even one of your cars.

So, what is driving a nice car if not part of one's "standard of
living"?
-----

- gpsman
Orval Fairbairn - 10 Nov 2009 13:28 GMT
> Last time on rec.autos.driving, Mark Mathu <mark@mathu.com> said:
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> standard of living could be if you could save the costs of owning,
> licensing, insuring, maintaining, and parking even one of your cars.

Slaves to the automobile??? Far better than being slaves to the
fixed-guideway and somebody else's schedules!

The automobile is a liberating device, allowing people to travel to
places THEY want to visit, WHEN they want to go, rather than depend on
some bureaucrat to determine those places and time for them.

Signature

Remove _'s  from email address to talk to me.

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 10 Nov 2009 14:52 GMT
On Nov 10, 8:28 am, Orval Fairbairn <o_r_fairbairn@earth_link.net>
wrote:
> In article <680if5tdsm4dssulp1t6qp9db9e23uu...@4ax.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> Slaves to the automobile??? Far better than being slaves to the
> fixed-guideway and somebody else's schedules!

Today we're slaves to the expressway--which is a fixed guideway--and
traffic.  We are forced to schedule our trips to avoid traffic jams.

Many people must leave for work at extremely early hours, arriving far
earlier than need be, so as to beat traffic and find a parking space.

They have no other choice.

> The automobile is a liberating device, allowing people to travel to
> places THEY want to visit, WHEN they want to go, rather than depend on
> some bureaucrat to determine those places and time for them.

Not in real life.
jim - 10 Nov 2009 15:27 GMT
> Today we're slaves to the expressway--which is a fixed guideway--and
> traffic.  We are forced to schedule our trips to avoid traffic jams.
>
> Many people must leave for work at extremely early hours, arriving far
> earlier than need be, so as to beat traffic and find a parking space.

Many drivers don't grasp the concept that good public transportation is
to their benefit. It could mean less traffic congestion.

> They have no other choice.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Not in real life.

In real life there are plenty of people who would make use of an
efficient, clean, affordable and easy to access public transportation.
Some people wouldn't mind a relaxing trip to and from work where you can
read the newspaper. It is amazing the number of people who don't grasp
the concept that they are compelled to spend 100's of hours driving to
and from  work. The vast majority of car trips are by folks who do not
get to choose where THEY want to go or  WHEN they want to go.

In real life, American drivers are like grabs in a barrel. They bitch
about other drivers on the road, but they are completely unwilling to
contribute to reducing the congestion. Ask the fools to help pay for
alternatives that would reduce the number of cars and trucks on the road
and the fools can't fathom how that would be a benefit to themselves.
Instead they think the intelligent thing to do is for all of them to get
into their cars at the same time and curse and swear at each other for
being on the road.

-jim
Larry Sheldon - 10 Nov 2009 15:37 GMT
>> Today we're slaves to the expressway--which is a fixed guideway--and
>> traffic.  We are forced to schedule our trips to avoid traffic jams.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Many drivers don't grasp the concept that good public transportation is
> to their benefit. It could mean less traffic congestion.

As I understand it, it is like Gore, et alia, on "carbon reduction" (or
what ever what ever ther term du jure is)....

Get everybody else to ride the subway, so they won't have their cars in
my way.
jim - 10 Nov 2009 17:15 GMT
> >> Today we're slaves to the expressway--which is a fixed guideway--and
> >> traffic.  We are forced to schedule our trips to avoid traffic jams.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Get everybody else to ride the subway, so they won't have their cars in
> my way.

Well thank you for making my point about grabs in a barrel. You haven't
the slightest clue how you're going to get out of the barrel. The only
thing you know is you aren't going to let anyone else get there ahead of
you.

If what you say is true (and it may well be) that would make Al Gore's
reasoning capacity as poor as yours. If Al Gore has the roads all to
himself who's going to help him pay for their maintenance? The
infrastructure upkeep to keep public road system available  to him is in
excess of 100 billion a year - do you think he can afford to pay for it?
Do you think the crabs are going to help pay for something they no
longer perceive exists for their benefit.

   

-jim
Brent - 10 Nov 2009 16:43 GMT
> Today we're slaves to the expressway--which is a fixed guideway--and
> traffic.  We are forced to schedule our trips to avoid traffic jams.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> They have no other choice.

Because of the way driving is done in the US, not because of driving
itself.

Driving is screwed up considerably by the controlling efforts and
the dumbing down imposed by our dear leaders.
Scott in SoCal - 10 Nov 2009 15:17 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, Orval Fairbairn
<o_r_fairbairn@earth_link.net> said:

>Slaves to the automobile??? Far better than being slaves to the
>fixed-guideway and somebody else's schedules!

So I take it you drive everywhere you need to go, and never travel by
commercial aircraft?
gpsman - 10 Nov 2009 16:28 GMT
> Last time on rec.autos.driving, Orval Fairbairn
> <o_r_fairbairn@earth_link.net> said:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> So I take it you drive everywhere you need to go, and never travel by
> commercial aircraft?

I like the way you are not embarrassed to attempt to ridiculously
refute your own ridiculous assertions.
-----

- gpsman
Larry Sheldon - 10 Nov 2009 16:33 GMT
>> Last time on rec.autos.driving, Orval Fairbairn
>> <o_r_fairbairn@earth_link.net> said:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I like the way you are not embarrassed to attempt to ridiculously
> refute your own ridiculous assertions.

I have this theory that say that any "response" that begins with the
word "So" is troll scat, and any further discussion is a fast of
everybody's time.  Except for the Turing machine's^W^WTroll's.  For the
Troll, it is dindin.

Signature

Requiescas in pace o email              Two identifying characteristics
                                             of System Administrators:
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio        Infallibility, and the ability to
                                             learn from their mistakes.
Eppure si rinfresca

ICBM Targeting Information:
    http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs
    http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml

gpsman - 10 Nov 2009 17:09 GMT
> >> Last time on rec.autos.driving, Orval Fairbairn
> >> <o_r_fairbairn@earth_link.net> said:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I have this theory that say that any "response" that begins with the
> word "So" is troll scat,

Rationally and accurately rephrasing the assertion of another is a
perfectly legitimate technique, nitwits just almost without exception
attempt to use it fallaciously as an emotionally-based "appeal to
ridicule", to wit:

+ On 2009-11-10, hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com <hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
- On Nov 5, 12:12 am, Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

+ _Anybody_  with a reasonable platform can run for and win entry
level political office and be a part of the process.

- So to be left alone one needs to gain political protection by being
elected to office?

I don't like the term "troll" because it suggests insight into
motivation.  "Nitwit", "idiot" and "moron" "guy who purports to be
employed but posts to Usenet all day every work day" tend to be self-
evident.

I have this theory that nitwits tend to increase in nitwitiness as
threads grow.
-----

- gpsman
Orval Fairbairn - 11 Nov 2009 03:54 GMT
> Last time on rec.autos.driving, Orval Fairbairn
> <o_r_fairbairn@earth_link.net> said:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> So I take it you drive everywhere you need to go, and never travel by
> commercial aircraft?

Sometime by commercial, sometimes by private aircraft, too. The GA plane
is the ultimate liberator -- no security nonsense, go when you want
(weather permitting, of course).

Signature

Remove _'s  from email address to talk to me.

Scott in SoCal - 11 Nov 2009 05:54 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, Orval Fairbairn
<o_r_fairbairn@earth_link.net> said:

>> >Slaves to the automobile??? Far better than being slaves to the
>> >fixed-guideway and somebody else's schedules!
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Sometime by commercial

So I guess you're OK with being a slave to somebody else's schedule
after all.
Orval Fairbairn - 11 Nov 2009 17:39 GMT
> Last time on rec.autos.driving, Orval Fairbairn
> <o_r_fairbairn@earth_link.net> said:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> So I guess you're OK with being a slave to somebody else's schedule
> after all.

No -- I can take it or leave it! If I want to fly to an outlying area, I
take my own plane. It pays to be able to tell the "masters" to go to
hell.

Signature

Remove _'s  from email address to talk to me.

Scott in SoCal - 12 Nov 2009 04:13 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, Orval Fairbairn
<o_r_fairbairn@earth_link.net> said:

>> Last time on rec.autos.driving, Orval Fairbairn
>> <o_r_fairbairn@earth_link.net> said:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>No -- I can take it or leave it!

Funny, I can do the same thing with train and bus schedules.
Jim Yanik - 11 Nov 2009 13:19 GMT
Orval Fairbairn <o_r_fairbairn@earth_link.net> wrote in news:o_r_fairbairn-
7B2B8B.23543710112009@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net:

>> Last time on rec.autos.driving, Orval Fairbairn
>> <o_r_fairbairn@earth_link.net> said:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> is the ultimate liberator -- no security nonsense, go when you want
> (weather permitting, of course).

smart people take the mode of transportation that best suits them for the
particular instance.THEY get to choose,not you or anyone else.

When I resided at Hanscom AFB(outside RT128 beltway),I took the subway into
Boston when I needed to go there,but had my car for trips to other places.
Sometimes I rode my bicycle.
Now,when I need to go to the airport,I drive to Park N Fly,leave my car
with them(for a fee),and take a shuttle to the airport.My car is safer
there than in airport parking.Although I'm more likely these days to drive
a long trip than use air travel,due to the TSA security mess and new
luggage fees.

I ride my bike to the store for small purchases,use the car for big grocery
trips.

Signature

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

Jim Yanik - 10 Nov 2009 16:39 GMT
>> Last time on rec.autos.driving, Mark Mathu <mark@mathu.com> said:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> places THEY want to visit, WHEN they want to go, rather than depend on
> some bureaucrat to determine those places and time for them.

there's a greater amount of vulnerability and risk when travelling by
public transportation. People get robbed or worse while waiting for the bus
or train to arrive,even get mugged while ON the bus or rain.They're also
great targets for mass murderers/terrorists.

And since the "progressives" don't want you carrying concealed weapons or
trying to defend yourself.....they've made public transpo "gun-free"
zones,except that the criminals don't pay any attention to that nonsense.
Recall the guy on the NY subway who had 4 "kids" with screwdrivers try to
rob him,or that Colin Ferguson guy on the LIRR.

Signature

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

Matthew Russotto - 11 Nov 2009 05:17 GMT
>Owning and operating a car costs many thousands of dollars per year.
>Most American families own more than one. Imagine how much higher your
>standard of living could be if you could save the costs of owning,
>licensing, insuring, maintaining, and parking even one of your cars.

You mean _lower_?  Because the few grand we'd save wouldn't nearly make
up for the inability for me and my wife to simultaneously have the
freedom of movement our automobiles provide.
Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

Scott in SoCal - 11 Nov 2009 05:55 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew
Russotto) said:

>>Owning and operating a car costs many thousands of dollars per year.
>>Most American families own more than one. Imagine how much higher your
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>up for the inability for me and my wife to simultaneously have the
>freedom of movement our automobiles provide.

Heh - you call sitting in a traffic jam "freedom of movement?"
Orval Fairbairn - 11 Nov 2009 17:47 GMT
> Last time on rec.autos.driving, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew
> Russotto) said:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Heh - you call sitting in a traffic jam "freedom of movement?"

..... if you don't live in a people kennel in an urban jungle, breathing
smog!

There is a whole BIG country out there that is accessable only via
private automobile or aircraft! There is little to compare with flying
along the Bitterroot Range east of Jackson Hole, looking at the contrast
of snoe, red-brown earth, clouds and sky.

Public transport gives a VERY poor facsimile of the experience.

Signature

Remove _'s  from email address to talk to me.

Clark F Morris - 12 Nov 2009 01:26 GMT
>> Last time on rec.autos.driving, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew
>> Russotto) said:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>along the Bitterroot Range east of Jackson Hole, looking at the contrast
>of snoe, red-brown earth, clouds and sky.

For scenery try taking the California Zephyr from San Francisco to
Denver or vice versa.  The Empire Builder also should be an eye
opening experience.  Just as there are highway drives with breath
taking scenery, there are rail trips that are well worth taking.

>Public transport gives a VERY poor facsimile of the experience.
Orval Fairbairn - 12 Nov 2009 03:35 GMT
> >> Last time on rec.autos.driving, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew
> >> Russotto) said:
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> >Public transport gives a VERY poor facsimile of the experience.

I would prefer the panorama that spreads out before me from my plane on
such a route. I would presume, however. that the CA Zephyr should
provide some spectacular scenery, as well.

How about going from Ely, NV to Jackson Hole, WY?
On one trip, I saw an orographic thunderstorm building along my planned
route of flight. A simple left adjustment of a few degrees avoided the
storm, but gave us some spectacular views! In less than 10 minutes, the
storm had grown from a few billowing clouds into a nasty-looking
T-storm, with lightning lighting up the whole cloud. We were several
miles to the north, in the clear and going at 160 knots.

Signature

Remove _'s  from email address to talk to me.

Matthew Russotto - 12 Nov 2009 00:17 GMT
>Last time on rec.autos.driving, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew
>Russotto) said:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Heh - you call sitting in a traffic jam "freedom of movement?"

What an idiotic straw man.  As if sitting in a traffic jam is the main
thing I do with my car.

On Monday, I drove a little over 100 miles in my car in about 2 hours,
while my wife drove 300 miles in a different direction, in about 5
hours, carrying in the vehicle some large pieces of art.  That's
freedom of movement.
Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 12 Nov 2009 02:04 GMT
On Nov 11, 7:17 pm, russo...@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto)
wrote:
> >Heh - you call sitting in a traffic jam "freedom of movement?"
>
> What an idiotic straw man.  As if sitting in a traffic jam is the main
> thing I do with my car.

It sure is what I do.  Unless I schedule my trips to go at offpeak
hours--not when it's convenient for me to go.

Commuting to work I don't have that choice.  I just love sitting in
intersections that are backed up, waiting through multiple signal
cycles.

That's normal heavy volume.  What about accidents?  Construction?
Water main breaks?  Police chases?  Fires?

I took a trip out west, figuring I'd get to drive in the wide open
spaces. Ha ha.  The Interstate was backed up for miles.  Since it was
an isolated area, there were no alternate routes.

> On Monday, I drove a little over 100 miles in my car in about 2 hours,
> while my wife drove 300 miles in a different direction, in about 5
> hours, carrying in the vehicle some large pieces of art.  That's
> freedom of movement.

I once went somewhere 100 miles in two hours.  No prob.  Until I got
there.  Then it took a half hour just to get into the parking lot.
Then a long walk from the outer reaches of a rough field to the
building.  Going home there was a jam up and I managed only ten miles
in two hours.
Scott in SoCal - 12 Nov 2009 04:21 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew
Russotto) said:

>>Heh - you call sitting in a traffic jam "freedom of movement?"
>
>What an idiotic straw man.

No more idiotic than trying to claim that automobiles provide freedom
of movement to go anywhere at any time. Car drivers are as much a
slave to other peoples' schedules as transit riders.
Daniel W. Rouse Jr. - 12 Nov 2009 05:12 GMT
> Last time on rec.autos.driving, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew
> Russotto) said:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> of movement to go anywhere at any time. Car drivers are as much a
> slave to other peoples' schedules as transit riders.

You're totally wrong about that.

I've driven to/from work, I've done the all-transit trips to/from work when
my car has needed major repairs, and I've done the combo drive to the park
and ride and then transit to and from work.

Driving *is* total freedom, even in some cases where transit may actually
get to/from work faster.

You mention getting stuck in a traffic jam, and being jammed in traffic
isn't good. But in a car, one can use alternate routes if the main route is
impacted by traffic--exit the freeway and use side streets for example, or
take a freeway bypass instead of the main freeway, or take a toll road. In a
light rail vehicle, the rails are the route. In a transit bus, the route is
usually fixed and usually doesn't detour significantly just because of
traffic jams. (BRT routes tend to use freeway HOV lanes, but not all bus
routes are designed as bus rapid transit.)

Light rail and transit buses run on fixed schedules/frequencies. Miss a run,
it could be a 15 minutes, 30 minutes or 1 hour wait for the next run.
Driving, one can leave as early or as late as they choose to, depending on
traffic conditions, and there isn't the issue of missing a fixed
schedule/frequency transit vehicle run.

Lunch time! One didn't bring their lunch? Unless bus service is excellent
near their workplace, plan on eating at the employee cafeteria, or else
either walking or getting a ride from someone if they want to go out to eat.
This isn't an issue when driving. Choose where to go based on food choice
and traffic conditions, then just drive there, get lunch, and drive back.

After work... what about those 24 hour transit schedules? Very few if any
exist, so now have to worry about last buses/trains home if working late or
simply want to do something after work. Driving, not an issue, just go
whereever, for however long, and drive home when done. Driving, work as late
as needed, the ride home their own vehicle in the employee parking lot
whenever work is done.

Then there's weekends. Some buses/trains don't run on weekends, or if they
do, on a lesser frequency and even a reduced schedule when compared to the
weekday. Driving... what schedule? Only the place of business open/close
hours matter, otherwise, drive whereever, whenever.

Finally, how about longer trips? San Diego to Los Angeles, on a weekend,
some place like Universal Studios Hollywood or Six Flags Magic Mountain, for
example. Driving time, about 2 hours, maybe 2.5 hours with a traffic jam or
two. Transit time, close to 4 hours easily, plus multiple vehicle transfers
are involved, plus possible fare upgrades for interagency transfers.
(Roughly speaking, one will have to transfer from San Diego MTS to NCTD,
then transfer to either Greyhound or Metrolink for the shortest
transfer/travel time--or transfer to OCTA for an even longer transfer/travel
time--then eventually transfer to Metro). Once there via transit, one has to
worry about having to limit time at a destination because of last transit
routes home. Driving? Stay as long as one wants to stay, with the freedom to
leave whenever and drive home.

Therefore, car drivers are definitely not a "slave" to anyone's schedules
when compared to transit riders.
Scott in SoCal - 12 Nov 2009 05:18 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, "Daniel W. Rouse Jr."
<dwrousejr@nethere.comNOSPAM> said:

>> Last time on rec.autos.driving, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew
>> Russotto) said:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>isn't good. But in a car, one can use alternate routes if the main route is
>impacted by traffic--exit the freeway and use side streets for example

Assuming you can make it to an exit.

Last Friday I was stuck behind an accident on the freeway. The CHP had
all lanes completely stopped while they brought in tow trucks to clear
the wreckage. I was in the exit lane and the exit ramp was only a few
hundred feet away, yet I was completly unable to get there.

"Total freedom" my a.s!
Daniel W. Rouse Jr. - 12 Nov 2009 05:25 GMT
> Last time on rec.autos.driving, "Daniel W. Rouse Jr."
> <dwrousejr@nethere.comNOSPAM> said:
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> "Total freedom" my a.s!

That's a mention of being stuck in a traffic break which, when compared to
the daily commutes when traffic breaks do not usually occur, qualifies as a
corner case/edge case in the daily commute. That's because even when an
accident closes lanes, some lanes usually remain open and traffic may be
stop and go, but during the times it is not stopped the traffic still moves
at a slow speed.

You also failed to address the remaining points that showed how driving was
total freedom compared to transit, especially during lunch, after
work/working late, and the longer/weekend trips.
Scott in SoCal - 12 Nov 2009 15:21 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, "Daniel W. Rouse Jr."
<dwrousejr@nethere.comNOSPAM> said:

>You also failed to address the remaining points that showed how driving was
>total freedom compared to transit

There's that ridiculous word "total" again.

I collect DVDs. There's a great DVD store a few miles north of here
called DVDPlanet (on Beach Boulevard in Huntington Beach). There was a
time when I could hop in the car after work and head up there to do
some shopping. Not anymore; if I try to take the 405 N any time before
8 PM it's so jammed that the trip just isn't worth it.

That is NOT *total* freedom. I have to put just as much planning into
some car trips as I would into a train or a bus trip.

Why can't you car slaves be honest?
Brent - 12 Nov 2009 15:44 GMT
> Last time on rec.autos.driving, "Daniel W. Rouse Jr."
><dwrousejr@nethere.comNOSPAM> said:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Why can't you car slaves be honest?

If people knew how to drive it wouldn't be sucha an issue. I started
delaying my bicycling and trips made by bicycle to times of less traffic
simply because of hostile, rude, and stupid drivers. Guess what? I still
encountered a few, just a lot fewer of them.

It's the same with transit...or at least it used to be... jammed full of
people where you can't even get a seat unless you put even more planning
to time your trips when it was less used.

But here's something to consider with transit, if you have your car you
pretty much know you'll be able to get back. What happens when the
transit line shuts down at 9 or 10pm and you have to go back at 11pm?

Then there is the fact that instead of sitting in traffic for an hour it
might be mean spending two or more hours waiting around after arriving
and/or before leaving.
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 12 Nov 2009 17:59 GMT
> If people knew how to drive it wouldn't be sucha an issue.

But roads are public and open to all.  That's a reality of the
situation.  You have drivers who are dangerous zipping all over the
place.  You have drivers creeping along.  You have drunks.

There are drivers whose licenses were pulled but keep driving
illegally because they have no other way to get around, no
alternative.

As the baby boomers age the situation will get worse.

> It's the same with transit...or at least it used to be... jammed full of
> people where you can't even get a seat unless you put even more planning
> to time your trips when it was less used.

On some transit routes rush hour is crowded.  But on others, such as
commuter rail, everyone gets a seat.

> But here's something to consider with transit, if you have your car you
> pretty much know you'll be able to get back. What happens when the
> transit line shuts down at 9 or 10pm and you have to go back at 11pm?

Most transit lines run until about 1 am, some run all night.

Of course, NO ONE is arguing to get rid of cars; that's just a
paranoid fiction.
Brent - 12 Nov 2009 18:07 GMT
>> If people knew how to drive it wouldn't be sucha an issue.
>
> But roads are public and open to all.  That's a reality of the
> situation.  You have drivers who are dangerous zipping all over the
> place.  You have drivers creeping along.  You have drunks.

Or a bus through a wall of your house.  Anyway those conditions are a
direct result of the stupidly run US road system. Germany's roads IME
were no less croweded but flowed several times better.

> There are drivers whose licenses were pulled but keep driving
> illegally because they have no other way to get around, no
> alternative.

The US system encourages that sort of thing even if there was another
way.

> As the baby boomers age the situation will get worse.

The boomer demographic has been making a lot of things worse for a long
time.

>> It's the same with transit...or at least it used to be... jammed full of
>> people where you can't even get a seat unless you put even more planning
>> to time your trips when it was less used.

> On some transit routes rush hour is crowded.  But on others, such as
> commuter rail, everyone gets a seat.

Some road routes during rush hour are not crowded.... you point to the
crowded ones, fair is fair.

>> But here's something to consider with transit, if you have your car you
>> pretty much know you'll be able to get back. What happens when the
>> transit line shuts down at 9 or 10pm and you have to go back at 11pm?

> Most transit lines run until about 1 am, some run all night.

Most?  You mean most of that service was cut years ago. Least it was
around here. It's that time of year in chicago again. Cutting out
routes, shutting down routes earlier in the day, and raising fares and
raiding more taxes for transit.

> Of course, NO ONE is arguing to get rid of cars; that's just a
> paranoid fiction.

And this is in reply to what?
Stephen Sprunk - 12 Nov 2009 15:55 GMT
> That's a mention of being stuck in a traffic break which, when compared
> to the daily commutes when traffic breaks do not usually occur,
> qualifies as a corner case/edge case in the daily commute.

What are you smoking?  Congestion, construction, accidents, etc. are a
_daily_ occurrence in every major or even mid-sized city.  Radio
stations devote entire segments to describing all the traffic problems
during rush hour, and they usually don't even cover the "normal" issues,
i.e. roads moving at half their posted speed or less.

> That's because even when an accident closes lanes, some lanes usually
> remain open and traffic may be stop and go, but during the times it is not
> stopped the traffic still moves at a slow speed.

Yes, that's how "stop and go" traffic works: the traffic stops for a
minute or so, then moves at a slow speed for a few seconds, then repeats
endlessly.  You're hardly supporting your argument here.

S

Signature

Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Daniel W. Rouse Jr. - 13 Nov 2009 06:25 GMT
>> That's a mention of being stuck in a traffic break which, when compared
>> to the daily commutes when traffic breaks do not usually occur,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> during rush hour, and they usually don't even cover the "normal" issues,
> i.e. roads moving at half their posted speed or less.

That' not the point. *Every* accident has a traffic break with a state
highway patrol vehicle S-curving along all the lanes to bring traffic to a
stop, then closing *all* lanes, *all* the time? No, I don't think so, thus
why a traffic break as I specifically mentioned is the corner case/edge case
in the bigger picture of the daily commute.

[snip...]
Scott in SoCal - 13 Nov 2009 15:13 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, "Daniel W. Rouse Jr."
<dwrousejr@nethere.comNOSPAM> said:

>>> That's a mention of being stuck in a traffic break which, when compared
>>> to the daily commutes when traffic breaks do not usually occur,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>highway patrol vehicle S-curving along all the lanes to bring traffic to a
>stop, then closing *all* lanes, *all* the time? No, I don't think so

It's no less accurate to claim that the personal automobile is "total"
freedom. The fact is, you can NOT just jump in your car and go
wherever you want whenever you want; your freedom is limited. And,
whether you admit it or not, sometimes taking the train is a better
option.
Stephen Sprunk - 21 Nov 2009 21:58 GMT
>>> That's a mention of being stuck in a traffic break which, when compared
>>> to the daily commutes when traffic breaks do not usually occur,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> thus why a traffic break as I specifically mentioned is the corner
> case/edge case in the bigger picture of the daily commute.

Not every accident causes the complete closure of a road, no, but every
accident _does_ cause additional congestion, in addition to the severe
congestion in most cities that exists during peak hours _without_ any
accidents or other events.  Complete closures are _not_ all that matter.

S

Signature

Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 21 Nov 2009 23:27 GMT
> Not every accident causes the complete closure of a road, no, but every
> accident _does_ cause additional congestion, in addition to the severe
> congestion in most cities that exists during peak hours _without_ any
> accidents or other events.  Complete closures are _not_ all that matter.

Even minor fender benders seriously disrupt traffic when they occur on
main roads.  Usually only one lane is getting by, so there is the
bottleneck right there.

Motorists on _both_ sides of the higway creep along "rubbernecking
delays".

But if the accident is serious, the road will be closed to facilitate
rescue and clean up.  Usually spilled gasoline and broken glass has to
be dealt with.  Vehicles towed.
The Real Bev - 12 Nov 2009 06:18 GMT
> <dwrousejr@nethere.comNOSPAM> said:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> "Total freedom" my a.s!

OTOH, how long were those poor saps trapped on the train that ran into the
nominalloy-suicidal loon who stopped his car on the track and then ran?  Or the
last time one ran into the actually-suicidal loon who succeeded in being squashed?

And then there are the "jumpers" who just tie up traffic for hours... We're all
doomed.

Signature

Cheers, Bev
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"It is a matter of regret that many low, mean suspicions
turn out to be well-founded."       -- Edgar Watson Howe

Scott in SoCal - 12 Nov 2009 15:28 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com>
said:

>OTOH, how long were those poor saps trapped on the train that ran into the
>nominalloy-suicidal loon who stopped his car on the track and then ran?  

Um, OK.

Train crashes like that happen, what, once every few years?

There is a SigAlert EVERY SINGLE DAY on one or more freeways, and even
when there is no TC to block lanes many freeways still look more like
parking lots.

A co-worker of mine lives in the Riverside area and commutes to Orange
County. When she saw I was taking the train to work she decided to try
it. She told me she wishes she had done it YEARS ago; not only does
the train take less time than driving on the 91, but the trip is far
less stressful. She even gets to sleep on the train. :)
Brent - 12 Nov 2009 15:51 GMT
> Last time on rec.autos.driving, The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com>
> said:
>
>>OTOH, how long were those poor saps trapped on the train that ran into the
>>nominalloy-suicidal loon who stopped his car on the track and then ran?  

> Um, OK.

> Train crashes like that happen, what, once every few years?

If only METRA could be so lucky.

> There is a SigAlert EVERY SINGLE DAY on one or more freeways, and even
> when there is no TC to block lanes many freeways still look more like
> parking lots.

As if these people will be less stupid around trains.  

> A co-worker of mine lives in the Riverside area and commutes to Orange
> County. When she saw I was taking the train to work she decided to try
> it. She told me she wishes she had done it YEARS ago; not only does
> the train take less time than driving on the 91, but the trip is far
> less stressful. She even gets to sleep on the train. :)

I don't think anyone argued it doesn't work for some people. The
opposite exists for other people. Where they had some nightmarish
transit commute that took much longer than it did by driving.
Matthew Russotto - 21 Nov 2009 03:05 GMT
>I don't think anyone argued it doesn't work for some people. The
>opposite exists for other people. Where they had some nightmarish
>transit commute that took much longer than it did by driving.

The transit commute that takes longer than driving is the rule, not
the exception.  Scott has managed to find himself a one-seat ride
which manages to beat driving, and generalizes that experience to
everything else.

Lately I've been commuting to another location than my usual office
(I'm doing consulting).  It's 51 miles; takes just about an hour door
to door by car.  SEPTA suggests minimum of 3hr 8 min, a four seat ride
(bus, train, train, bus).
Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 21 Nov 2009 23:19 GMT
> The transit commute that takes longer than driving is the rule, not
> the exception.  

Which is irrelevent.

Obviously a traveller will take the best mode that suits his needs.
In many cases that is the car.  In many other cases it is the train or
bus.

> Lately I've been commuting to another location than my usual office
> (I'm doing consulting).  It's 51 miles; takes just about an hour door
> to door by car.  SEPTA suggests minimum of 3hr 8 min, a four seat ride
> (bus, train, train, bus).

That average speed door to door in rush hour traffic seems awfully
good.  Many places in the SEPTA service territory get congested at
rush hour, such as longer waits at major traffic lights.  Traffic near
office parks can get bad.

So obviously SEPTA is not a good solution for you.  But SEPTA
obviously is a good solution for thousands of other people because
they choose to ride it every day.
Matthew Russotto - 22 Nov 2009 00:54 GMT
>> The transit commute that takes longer than driving is the rule, not
>> the exception.
>
>Which is irrelevent.

I think you don't know the meaning of the word.

>> Lately I've been commuting to another location than my usual office
>> (I'm doing consulting). It's 51 miles; takes just about an hour door
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>rush hour, such as longer waits at major traffic lights.  Traffic near
>office parks can get bad.

I have experience, you have generalities.

>So obviously SEPTA is not a good solution for you.  But SEPTA
>obviously is a good solution for thousands of other people because
>they choose to ride it every day.

SEPTA is mostly the choice of last resort; people take it because they
can't afford better.  If you can get a single-seat ride on a regional
rail line, and live near it and work near it, it can be advantageous.
Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 23 Nov 2009 14:54 GMT
On Nov 21, 7:54 pm, russo...@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto)
wrote:

> >That average speed door to door in rush hour traffic seems awfully
> >good.  Many places in the SEPTA service territory get congested at
> >rush hour, such as longer waits at major traffic lights.  Traffic near
> >office parks can get bad.
>
> I have experience, you have generalities.

What experience?  You spoke solely of your own personal travel
needs.

> >So obviously SEPTA is not a good solution for you.  But SEPTA
> >obviously is a good solution for thousands of other people because
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> can't afford better.  If you can get a single-seat ride on a regional
> rail line, and live near it and work near it, it can be advantageous.

In the poorer sections of the city there are people who use the
transit division for that reason.  But plenty of people within the
city and most of the people in the suburbs DO have a choice of driving
or SEPTA.  They choose to use transit because it works better for
them.

During the rush hour and during certain offpeak events, traffic in the
metro area is lousy.  Stop and go, sit and wait.  The trains, both
commuter and subway-elevated, fly past all that.  Those trains are
filled with people for that reason.

SEPTA attracts passengers from not only middle class areas, but wealth
areas, too, as you should well know.  Many of those people not only
have cars, but even dedicated parking spaces downtown.  But the train
is faster.

The same applies to other metro areas as well.
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 12 Nov 2009 17:53 GMT
> Assuming you can make it to an exit.
> Last Friday I was stuck behind an accident on the freeway. The CHP had
> all lanes completely stopped while they brought in tow trucks to clear
> the wreckage. I was in the exit lane and the exit ramp was only a few
> hundred feet away, yet I was completly unable to get there.
> "Total freedom" my a.s!- Hide quoted text -

Happens all the time everywhere in the country.  Even in rural areas.

There was an ice storm that fouled a rural interstate and drivers were
stranded on the road, no food, no help, nothing nearby.  The National
Guard had to deploy helicopters to get emergency supplies to those
stranded.

Notably, the motorists blamed the state for their predicament.  So
much for the claims of "individuality" motorists like to make.

The ice storm and its dangers were predicted well in advance.  The
drivers shouldn't have been there in the first place.
Stephen Sprunk - 12 Nov 2009 15:50 GMT
> I've driven to/from work, I've done the all-transit trips to/from work
> when my car has needed major repairs, and I've done the combo drive to
> the park and ride and then transit to and from work.
>
> Driving *is* total freedom, even in some cases where transit may
> actually get to/from work faster.

You have an odd idea of what "freedom" means.

> You mention getting stuck in a traffic jam, and being jammed in traffic
> isn't good. But in a car, one can use alternate routes if the main route
> is impacted by traffic--exit the freeway and use side streets for
> example, or take a freeway bypass instead of the main freeway, or take a
> toll road.

During rush hour, the side streets, the bypasses, and toll roads are all
horribly congested as well.  There is _no_ route that is uncongested,
because there are millions of other lemmings trying to optimize their
own commute just like you, with the result of uniform congestion.

> In a light rail vehicle, the rails are the route.

Right--and your trip always takes the same amount of time regardless of
the number of passengers.

> Light rail and transit buses run on fixed schedules/frequencies. Miss a
> run, it could be a 15 minutes, 30 minutes or 1 hour wait for the next
> run.

Or, during peak hours, when most passengers will be riding, it may be as
little as 2-5 minutes.  That is a _lot_ less than the additional time
you'll lose stuck in traffic using your car for the same trip.

Off-peak, yes, this is often a problem.

> Driving, one can leave as early or as late as they choose to,
> depending on traffic conditions,

... which means you _can't_ leave as early or as late as you choose to;
you must leave early to pad your trip to account for congestion,
accidents, construction, detours, etc.

> Lunch time! One didn't bring their lunch? Unless bus service is
> excellent near their workplace, plan on eating at the employee
> cafeteria, or else either walking or getting a ride from someone if they
> want to go out to eat. This isn't an issue when driving. Choose where to
> go based on food choice and traffic conditions, then just drive there,
> get lunch, and drive back.

Transit in general works best when it serves walkable neighborhoods.

Walking to a parking garage, navigating your way out with a flood of
other people doing the same, paying, driving a few blocks to restaurant
in horribly congested traffic, wolfing your food down, and reversing the
entire process in less than an hour doesn't sound like an appealing
alternative--if it's even possible.

> After work... what about those 24 hour transit schedules? Very few if
> any exist, so now have to worry about last buses/trains home if working
> late or simply want to do something after work.

Most transit systems run until at least midnight and start up again by
4am, which means the _vast_ majority of to-/from-work trips can be
served.  If your shift happens to start/end during that period, well,
you're one of the lucky few that might be able to drive in reasonable
traffic, compared to the gridlock the other 20 hours per day.

> Driving, not an issue,
> just go whereever, for however long, and drive home when done. Driving,
> work as late as needed, the ride home their own vehicle in the employee
> parking lot whenever work is done.

... as long as it doesn't matter to you how long or how frustrating the
trip is.

> Therefore, car drivers are definitely not a "slave" to anyone's
> schedules when compared to transit riders.

The most insidious form of slavery is when one manages to convince the
slaves that they're not really slaves.

S

Signature

Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Jim Yanik - 12 Nov 2009 18:25 GMT
>> I've driven to/from work, I've done the all-transit trips to/from work
>> when my car has needed major repairs, and I've done the combo drive to
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
>
> S

How often do YOU ride mass transit?

Signature

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 12 Nov 2009 17:50 GMT
On Nov 12, 12:12 am, "Daniel W. Rouse Jr."
<dwrous...@nethere.comNOSPAM> wrote:
> > No more idiotic than trying to claim that automobiles provide freedom
> > of movement to go anywhere at any time. Car drivers are as much a
> > slave to other peoples' schedules as transit riders.
>
> You're totally wrong about that.

> Driving *is* total freedom, even in some cases where transit may actually
> get to/from work faster.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> traffic jams. (BRT routes tend to use freeway HOV lanes, but not all bus
> routes are designed as bus rapid transit.)

When a main highway is jammed, motorists jam up the alternate routes
as well.  The alternate routes aren't able to handle the high volume
of detoured traffic.

When I-95 was closed due to failed support, traffic was detoured onto
local streets.  It was a horrible nightmare until the support was
fixed.

> Light rail and transit buses run on fixed schedules/frequencies. Miss a run,
> it could be a 15 minutes, 30 minutes or 1 hour wait for the next run.
> Driving, one can leave as early or as late as they choose to, depending on
> traffic conditions, and there isn't the issue of missing a fixed
> schedule/frequency transit vehicle run.

Yes, "depending on traffic conditions".

In developed areas, many transit routes run very frequently, like
every 2-3 minutes.

> Lunch time! One didn't bring their lunch? Unless bus service is excellent
> near their workplace, plan on eating at the employee cafeteria, or else
> either walking or getting a ride from someone if they want to go out to eat.
> This isn't an issue when driving. Choose where to go based on food choice
> and traffic conditions, then just drive there, get lunch, and drive back.

In developed areas, there are numerous lunch places within walking
distance.  In modern suburban office parks, there is NOTHING.  No
stores of any kind.  No sidewalks; each building surrounded by a moat
of parking and drainage, no way to get to another building even that
building had a little restaurant.

So, at lunch time all the people get in their cars.  Traffic jam!
Which I learned the hard way doing business at such a modern office
park.  I spent the bulk of my lunch hour in a traffic jam trying to
get out, and in another one trying to get back in.
Brent - 12 Nov 2009 18:00 GMT
> In developed areas, many transit routes run very frequently, like
> every 2-3 minutes.

NYC subway in rush hour? Where do you get this 'many'? I never saw the
CTA running that frequently. The L was across the street. The train
noise dominated over any other sounds so there was no way it could run
every 3 minutes and I not notice it. Plus when I sat out on the balcony
I didn't see trains running on the metra, two L lines, and a major N-S
bus route with that kind of frequency. These were major lines serving
the south side and south suburbs of chicago to/from the loop.
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 12 Nov 2009 21:40 GMT
> > In developed areas, many transit routes run very frequently, like
> > every 2-3 minutes.
>
> NYC subway in rush hour? Where do you get this 'many'? I never saw the
> CTA running that frequently.

I just checked the CTA web page.  Some rapid transit routes run every
3 minutes during the rush hour, and some lines run 24/7.

On many sections there are multiple routes so there is even more
frequent service.
Brent - 12 Nov 2009 21:56 GMT
>> > In developed areas, many transit routes run very frequently, like
>> > every 2-3 minutes.
>>
>> NYC subway in rush hour? Where do you get this 'many'? I never saw the
>> CTA running that frequently.

> I just checked the CTA web page.  Some rapid transit routes run every
> 3 minutes during the rush hour, and some lines run 24/7.

Some, a few, maybe for a few hours... exceptions made into rules.

> On many sections there are multiple routes so there is even more
> frequent service.

which are different routes so that's irrelevant.
Miles Bader - 12 Nov 2009 22:45 GMT
>>> > In developed areas, many transit routes run very frequently, like
>>> > every 2-3 minutes.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Some, a few, maybe for a few hours... exceptions made into rules.

The line I take most often runs every 2-3 bin during rush, and
downgrades to maybe every 5-6 min in the slow periods.  Horrors...!

Anyway, the effect is, there's no point to trying to plan which train to
take, you just go there whenever you're ready, and get the next one.

-Miles

Signature

97% of everything is grunge

Brent - 12 Nov 2009 23:17 GMT
>>>> > In developed areas, many transit routes run very frequently, like
>>>> > every 2-3 minutes.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> The line I take most often runs every 2-3 bin during rush, and
> downgrades to maybe every 5-6 min in the slow periods.  Horrors...!

I just looked at the PDF of every L line. Best I could find is a blue
line train leaving ohare every 3 to 8 minutes between 5:50am and 9:23am.
There are one's faster than 8, but I can't find any other claim that
there is ever a 3 minute or less spacing.

All others are longer in the morning rush. Now I didn't look at every
single delta between trains at every stop, but if there are trains
running every '2-3minutes' it's clearly an exception and not a rule. Not
many, not most.
Miles Bader - 12 Nov 2009 23:29 GMT
>> The line I take most often runs every 2-3 bin during rush, and
>> downgrades to maybe every 5-6 min in the slow periods.  Horrors...!
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> There are one's faster than 8, but I can't find any other claim that
> there is ever a 3 minute or less spacing.

I'm not in Chicago.

-Miles

Signature

Erudition, n. Dust shaken out of a book into an empty skull.

Matthew Russotto - 21 Nov 2009 02:50 GMT
>Last time on rec.autos.driving, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew
>Russotto) said:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>of movement to go anywhere at any time. Car drivers are as much a
>slave to other peoples' schedules as transit riders.

No.  Car drivers are not unaffected by other people's schedules, but
they are less controlled by them.
Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 21 Nov 2009 23:14 GMT
> >No more idiotic than trying to claim that automobiles provide freedom
> >of movement to go anywhere at any time. Car drivers are as much a
> >slave to other peoples' schedules as transit riders.
>
> No.  Car drivers are not unaffected by other people's schedules, but
> they are less controlled by them.

That depends on how bad the traffic is.  Some places have bad traffic
much of the time, limited the window of opportunity.  And obviously
some places have no problem with traffic.  (see below).
Matthew Russotto - 22 Nov 2009 00:49 GMT
>That depends on how bad the traffic is.  Some places have bad traffic
>much of the time, limited the window of opportunity.  And obviously
>some places have no problem with traffic.  (see below).

I'm unaware of any place in the US -- NYC not excepted -- where
transit is actually more flexible than using the automobile.  Most
places with absolutely horrendous traffic have horrendous transit as
well.
Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

Matthew Russotto - 05 Nov 2009 18:41 GMT
>Last time on rec.autos.driving, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew
>Russotto) said:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>decisions about which modes of transport to employ and when to employ
>them.

If we got rid of all transportation subsidies -- let's say including
those derived from user fees -- and just bolt a magic meter in each
car, transit would disappear almost entirely.  So I'm not sure what
"correct economic decisions" people could make, besides driving.  Oh,
if they're walking or riding bicycles, that gets metered too, though
at a much lower rate.

But in fact the lion's share of roads are already paid for by direct
user fees, and the other things you claim are subsidies, like parking for
customers and employees, are not subsidies.
Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

James Robinson - 05 Nov 2009 18:53 GMT
> If we got rid of all transportation subsidies -- let's say including
> those derived from user fees -- and just bolt a magic meter in each
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> user fees, and the other things you claim are subsidies, like parking for
> customers and employees, are not subsidies.

I wonder how much the magic meter would charge for driving through the Big
Dig in Boston, if the fee is intended to recover the full cost of the
facility?  Perhaps you see that partially being charged to someone driving
a few blocks in North Adams who never uses the Big Dig in his life?
Matthew Russotto - 05 Nov 2009 19:05 GMT
>> If we got rid of all transportation subsidies -- let's say including
>> those derived from user fees -- and just bolt a magic meter in each
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>facility?  Perhaps you see that partially being charged to someone driving
>a few blocks in North Adams who never uses the Big Dig in his life?

If the magic meters existed and were the only way to pay for things,
that particular boondoggle would have never been built.
Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

Scott in SoCal - 06 Nov 2009 03:13 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew
Russotto) said:

>>Last time on rec.autos.driving, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew
>>Russotto) said:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>those derived from user fees -- and just bolt a magic meter in each
>car, transit would disappear almost entirely.

It's too bad the removal of subsidies will never actually happen; I
would very much enjoy watching you eat crow. :)
Bolwerk - 11 Nov 2009 06:14 GMT
>>> [Excerpt from "Suburban Nation" by Andres Duany and Elizabeth
>>> Plater-Zybeck, pp. 94-7.]
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Since we know at this point that we have a typical
> bigcityeastcoastcommunist rant, I stopped reading at this point.

Have you sent a letter of thanks to those bigcityeastcoastcommunists for
all the transfer payments taxed from them to go to red staters?  Didn't
think so.
Brent - 03 Nov 2009 05:24 GMT
> Americans because it is what economists refer to as a "free good": the
> consumer pays only a fraction of its true cost. The authors Stanley

Ok, he's got it ok to here... but like all anti-car folks it falls
apart, because the only place they demand free market down to the last
aspect is when it is the roads and private automobile. But at least the
non-drivers are only paying for the most local of roads. The ones they
would need even if automobiles had never been invented. Non-transit
users aren't so lucky. (in the chicago area part of the sales tax is to
fund transit)

> Even more irksome is the fact that spending on transit creates twice
> as many new jobs as spending on highways. In fact, every billion
> dollars reallocated from road-building to transit creates seven
> thousand jobs.' Congress's recent $41 billion highway bill, had it
> been allocated to transit, would have employed an additional
> quarter-million people nationwide.

Ta DA!  They have absolutely no freaking problem with government
controlled and near totally socially funded transit. Private car owners
take a far greater percentage of the costs than the transit rider. If
transit were run as a business instead of a social service it might
actually be useful to more people.

> Because they do not pay the full price of driving, most car owners
> choose to drive as much as possible.

I don't know anybody that does.

> One need look no further for a
> reason why American cities continue to sprawl into the countryside. In
> Europe, where gasoline costs about four times the American price,
> long-distance automotive commuting is the exclusive privilege of he
> wealthy, and there is relatively little suburban sprawl.

The way our wise socialist masters want it to be. It seems they believe
we should be poor, living in tenements in the inner city and the
countryside left pristine for the wealthy to enjoy.  Al Gore will always
be allowed to fly and drive.

Also note that european gasoline taxes are not only going to the 'cost
of driving' but fund many other things too.

> The American Gosplan pertains to shipping as well. In the current
> structure of subsidization, trucking is heavily favored over rail
> transport, even though trucks consume fifteen times the fuel for the
> equivalent job. The government pays a $300 billion subsidy to truckers
> unthinkingly, while carefully scrutinizing every dollar allocated to
> transit.

That's because the government doesn't have money of its own. It takes it
from people. People want private automobiles so they can disguise the
trucker subsidy. They can't disguise the transit subsidy. transit also
serves a far smaller segment of the population and that segment grows
ever smaller as transit service is cut back. Also it seems (at least in
IL) giving certain groups free transit has made the problems worse.

> While there are many supposedly "anti-business" arguments for a higher
> gas tax - from fighting global warming to supporting public transit -
> the real justification is economic: subsidized automobile use is the
> single largest violation of the free-market principle in U.S. fiscal
> policy.

Hardly. Not by a long shot. The biggest is the banks, followed by the
military industrial complex, followed by health care related items, then
probably social security. Automobiles are probably near the bottom of
the list if all the taxes motorists pay alone are taken out. It's
gasoline taxes on motorists that supply a good amount of money to
transit.

> Economic inefficiencies in this country due to automotive
> subsidization are estimated at $700 billion annually, which powerfully
> undermines America's ability to compete in the global economy.

What really undermines it is the banking system that runs this country's
economy and the spending on war and war related items.

This guy would have some credibility if he argued for private roads and
private rail funded by private companies and individuals. Instead he
complains the roads aren't 'free market enough' but rail should be more
socialist.
Larry Sheldon - 03 Nov 2009 14:49 GMT
>> Americans because it is what economists refer to as a "free good": the
>> consumer pays only a fraction of its true cost. The authors Stanley

That is the purest nonsense.

Does money grow on trees?  Do you find it under rocks?  (No, those
people are trying to stop mining.)  Do you pump it out of the ground?
(Same problem).

The consumer pays all of the cost and more.  There is no free lunch.
Brent - 03 Nov 2009 15:17 GMT
>>> Americans because it is what economists refer to as a "free good": the
>>> consumer pays only a fraction of its true cost. The authors Stanley
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> The consumer pays all of the cost and more.  There is no free lunch.

What is meant by a 'free good' is that someone else pays for it.
Government run health care is going to be paid for by every productive
person but lots and lots of people are going to see it as free. This
will create shortages, etc.

The costs of driving are mostly on the drivers. The bulk of what goes to
non-drivers to pay are things like the roads in front of their houses
and businesses who choose not charge separately for parking*. In a way
road use still functions like a 'free good' in that costs are
distributed to a huge number of drivers and burried in the prices of
fuel, registration, etc. Most people do realize they are paying them,
just ask any bicyclist hating motorist and he'll bring up taxes. That
said it is only the road itself that is 'socialized' (and mostly
within road users) with driving. Drivers have to take care of the
vehicles themselves with very obvious direct costs.

The problem is, the author refuses to see transit in the same light.
transit is very socialized, both infrastructure _and_ vehicles. It's
fare structure often has short trip riders subsidizing long trip riders.
The taxes that support it mostly come from those that never or very
rarely use it.

If he had made an argument that both should stand on their own two feet
with -direct- costs to the users, he would be credible. Instead what he
is left with is a demand that transit be funded better with tax dollars.

*as private businesses it is their right to structure their prices as
they see fit and provide parking as they see fit. Until they believe it
is more profitable for them to charge for parking separately, they
won't.
Larry Sheldon - 03 Nov 2009 15:44 GMT
>>>> Americans because it is what economists refer to as a "free good": the
>>>> consumer pays only a fraction of its true cost. The authors Stanley
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> person but lots and lots of people are going to see it as free. This
> will create shortages, etc.

So cars and their use are not free goods, but transit systems and their
use are.

OK.

What was the point of the article?

> The costs of driving are mostly on the drivers. The bulk of what goes to
> non-drivers to pay are things like the roads in front of their houses
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> within road users) with driving. Drivers have to take care of the
> vehicles themselves with very obvious direct costs.

OK, you and I are using the same music.  I didn't read accurately, and
it took me a while to realize that.  Sorry.

I pay (directly) to a variety of local, state, federal, and foreign
governments for the so-called socialized facilities.

The street in front of my house has demonstrable economic value to me,
and I pay for it through SID taxes.

The subway system in New York, and the street car system they want to
build here have little demonstrable value to me at all.

> The problem is, the author refuses to see transit in the same light.
> transit is very socialized, both infrastructure _and_ vehicles. It's
> fare structure often has short trip riders subsidizing long trip riders.
> The taxes that support it mostly come from those that never or very
> rarely use it.

Bingo.

> If he had made an argument that both should stand on their own two feet
> with -direct- costs to the users, he would be credible. Instead what he
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> is more profitable for them to charge for parking separately, they
> won't.

We have a current event issue with that.  I am a member of the Vestry of
a small church that is growing rapidly--something we are not used to,
and some were not prepared for.

We started a project to build more parking spaces.  Many people
including some of the folks that other folks listen to don't think we
should be wasting our money, "lots of churches have very little parking
and the people park on the streets".

They miss the fact that those churches are in urban settings, were built
before minimum parking-space regulations came into being (to solve that
very problem!), are not on narrow residential streets (this church is
located on a corner, the south edge is on a "No Parking This Side"
street, the West edge street is so narrow that if people don't park half
on the grass, there isn't enough room for cars to drive past them, and
then only one at a time, unidirectionally).  The neighborhood is all
large homes on large lots with curving driveways across the front, so
most of the frontage is driveway and the required setback, and you can't
park in front of the mailboxes, and ....

Getting somebody else to take care of your needs for really does not
work very well.

Signature

Requiescas in pace o email              Two identifying characteristics
                                             of System Administrators:
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio        Infallibility, and the ability to
                                             learn from their mistakes.
Eppure si rinfresca

ICBM Targeting Information:
    http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs
    http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 04 Nov 2009 04:11 GMT
> The costs of driving are mostly on the drivers. The bulk of what goes to
> non-drivers to pay are things like the roads in front of their houses
> and businesses who choose not charge separately for parking*.

And things like lost property taxes when a new or expanded road is
built on what was once private productive land.

And things like fire, rescue, and police when there are accidents or
special circumstances.  An accident on a major road can tie up
multiple police cars for hours rerouting traffic, cleaning up, etc.
That's all paid for by the general taxpayer.

Indeed, at a recent town meeting, we were told a proposed expansion
would require the town--at taxpayer's expense--to add four more police
cars.

> Drivers have to take care of the
> vehicles themselves with very obvious direct costs.

Actually, the vehicles themselves now get govt subsidies.

> The problem is, the author refuses to see transit in the same light.
> transit is very socialized, both infrastructure _and_ vehicles. It's
> fare structure often has short trip riders subsidizing long trip riders.
> The taxes that support it mostly come from those that never or very
> rarely use it.

Actually the author is pretty much on target.  The benefits of transit
are given to a large segment of the population, not just those
themselves who ride it.

The vast, vast amount of transportation taxes goes to support the
motor vehicle, not transit.
Brent - 04 Nov 2009 06:23 GMT
>> The costs of driving are mostly on the drivers. The bulk of what goes to
>> non-drivers to pay are things like the roads in front of their houses
>> and businesses who choose not charge separately for parking*.

> And things like lost property taxes when a new or expanded road is
> built on what was once private productive land.

So long as there is property tax I'm not sure there is really anything
as private land.

> And things like fire, rescue, and police when there are accidents or
> special circumstances.  An accident on a major road can tie up
> multiple police cars for hours rerouting traffic, cleaning up, etc.
> That's all paid for by the general taxpayer.

For the cops in that it takes away from their time writing traffic
tickets. People are also very opposed to being charged for fire and
rescue services. I think most people would be better off charged on a
per event basis by a private company that competes with other private
companies.

That said, mention the end of socialized fire departments and
most people will get rather upset. Just look what happened when some
home owners and insurance companies started hiring private fire fighters
to protect property from wild fires. Even worse cops started arresting
people who protected their own property.

> Indeed, at a recent town meeting, we were told a proposed expansion
> would require the town--at taxpayer's expense--to add four more police
> cars.

well, that sounds like justifying putting more revenue gathering
employees on the roads to me.

>> Drivers have to take care of the
>> vehicles themselves with very obvious direct costs.

> Actually, the vehicles themselves now get govt subsidies.

I was against cash-for-clunkers too.

>> The problem is, the author refuses to see transit in the same light.
>> transit is very socialized, both infrastructure _and_ vehicles. It's
>> fare structure often has short trip riders subsidizing long trip riders.
>> The taxes that support it mostly come from those that never or very
>> rarely use it.

> Actually the author is pretty much on target.  The benefits of transit
> are given to a large segment of the population, not just those
> themselves who ride it.

You know what, the 'benefits to a large segment of the population'
argument is either bullshit or it's not. You can't use it for transit
but not for roads or vice versa.

> The vast, vast amount of transportation taxes goes to support the
> motor vehicle, not transit.

Yeah, because transit is supported by all forms of taxation, not just
taxes aimed at transportation.
rshersh@gmail.com - 04 Nov 2009 11:07 GMT
> >> The costs of driving are mostly on the drivers. The bulk of what goes to
> >> non-drivers to pay are things like the roads in front of their houses
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> So long as there is property tax I'm not sure there is really anything
> as private land.

as well there should not be

there is only so much land

and for the most part no more is being created

> > And things like fire, rescue, and police when there are accidents or
> > special circumstances.  An accident on a major road can tie up
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> per event basis by a private company that competes with other private
> companies.

crapola, then you are going to be paying for some private company's
profit

which means you  are going to get wal-mart type low wage workers doing
the fire and rescue
so this private company can low ball the contract

wait until you wreck on the freeway and no govt rescue

only a private contractor with minimum wage grunts

> That said, mention the end of socialized fire departments and
> most people will get rather upset. Just look what happened when some
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> Yeah, because transit is supported by all forms of taxation, not just
> taxes aimed at transportation.

crapola

there is much more general taxation spent on roads then transit

most local spending comes from general taxation rather then the gas
tax, esp in NJ
Robert Heller - 04 Nov 2009 11:14 GMT
> >> The costs of driving are mostly on the drivers. The bulk of what goes to
> >> non-drivers to pay are things like the roads in front of their houses
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> So long as there is property tax I'm not sure there is really anything
> as private land.

The key word is 'productive'...

Signature

Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Download the Model Railroad System
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Binaries for Linux and MS-Windows
heller@deepsoft.com       -- http://www.deepsoft.com/ModelRailroadSystem/

Brent - 04 Nov 2009 13:35 GMT
>> >> The costs of driving are mostly on the drivers. The bulk of what goes to
>> >> non-drivers to pay are things like the roads in front of their houses
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> The key word is 'productive'...

Which is hardly unique to road use. Government can take land for
practically any purpose it decides now, including giving it to other
people. An expansion of transit would take a lot of land as well. It is
rather rare that a rail right-of-way is just the width of the tracks
too.

Also, if north americans would learn how to drive properly fewer
lanes would be needed.
Dave C. - 04 Nov 2009 02:42 GMT
> > At Wed, 4 Nov 2009 06:23:10 +0000 (UTC) Brent
> > <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> practically any purpose it decides now, including giving it to other
> people.

That's only because the Supreme Court of the United States has
misinterpreted the Constitution in a 5-4 ruling where only 7 of the
voting members were present to hear arguments in the case.

The ruling was based on precedents where other courts had also ruled
incorrectly on the Constitutionality of eminent domain to take private
land and give it to other private landowners for private purposes.
-Dave
Brent - 04 Nov 2009 14:46 GMT
>> > At Wed, 4 Nov 2009 06:23:10 +0000 (UTC) Brent
>> > <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> misinterpreted the Constitution in a 5-4 ruling where only 7 of the
> voting members were present to hear arguments in the case.

> The ruling was based on precedents where other courts had also ruled
> incorrectly on the Constitutionality of eminent domain to take private
> land and give it to other private landowners for private purposes.

That's the nature of the system. The original error was allowing the
council of 9 the power they have today. The system of constitutional
interpetation started to be rigged a long time ago.

The loss of productive private property to roads is really very minor in
the productive loss of land and wealth of land owners. Property tax
itself is a great loss of productive resources. Then there is all the
land held by the federal, state, and local governments. Whatever loss
there may be for land being used roads, rail, etc is very minor as
transportation itself is a productive use. It may be a less productive
use than the free market would have put it to, but it is at least still
productive.
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 04 Nov 2009 17:47 GMT
> That's the nature of the system. The original error was allowing the
> council of 9 the power they have today. The system of constitutional
> interpetation started to be rigged a long time ago.

You know, if government was as evil as you constantly complain, they
would've found an excuse (as you so often say) to lock you up forever.

But you're out on the street, free to do as you please, and probably
making a good living.

That suggests your arguments are nonsense.

When they come to take you away let us know.
Brent - 04 Nov 2009 18:11 GMT
>> That's the nature of the system. The original error was allowing the
>> council of 9 the power they have today. The system of constitutional
>> interpetation started to be rigged a long time ago.

> You know, if government was as evil as you constantly complain, they
> would've found an excuse (as you so often say) to lock you up forever.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> That suggests your arguments are nonsense.

Lacking any real arguments to make I see. Your attacks on me don't
change the manipulations and increases in power of the supreme court
which are facts of history.

I do find the 'if you were right things would be much worse' argument
amusing. The frog does boil slowly.

Like all productive people I'd be much better off if government was kept
in it's cage.  Instead the giant parasite grows ever more burdensome.

> When they come to take you away let us know.

That would be a violation of the law. (yeah, I know, you didn't read
those bills and don't think they exist)
James Robinson - 04 Nov 2009 18:14 GMT
>> When they come to take you away let us know.
>
> That would be a violation of the law. (yeah, I know, you didn't read
> those bills and don't think they exist)

They'll just use Extraordinary Rendition, or whatever they call it next.
Brent - 04 Nov 2009 18:37 GMT
>>> When they come to take you away let us know.
>>
>> That would be a violation of the law. (yeah, I know, you didn't read
>> those bills and don't think they exist)
>
> They'll just use Extraordinary Rendition, or whatever they call it next.

sorry, I wasn't clear... telling that they've taken me away or that they
visited is the violation.
Clark F Morris - 04 Nov 2009 18:56 GMT
>>> When they come to take you away let us know.
>>
>> That would be a violation of the law. (yeah, I know, you didn't read
>> those bills and don't think they exist)
>
>They'll just use Extraordinary Rendition, or whatever they call it next.

I thought they only could do that to non-citizens and those citizens
who voluntarily entered a foreign country that would do renditions for
the United States.
Stephen Sprunk - 04 Nov 2009 20:55 GMT
>>>> When they come to take you away let us know.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> who voluntarily entered a foreign country that would do renditions for
> the United States.

"Can" and "do" are often quite different, especially when you're dealing
with secret military teams under the control of the CIA, none of whose
activities are ever reported to the public.  If they were violating the
law, how would we know?

The only worse program we have is FISA (which allows the gov't to get
secret warrants, from a secret rubber-stamp court whose judges aren't
even publicly named, to spy on anyone within the US, including citizens).

S

Signature

Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 04 Nov 2009 19:14 GMT
> Lacking any real arguments to make I see. Your attacks on me don't
> change the manipulations and increases in power of the supreme court
> which are facts of history.

I did not attack you.

I attacked your anti-government rants.  I stand by my position that if
your rants were true, they'd have come and taken you away long ago,
using the many powers and techniques you claim they have.

> > When they come to take you away let us know.
>
> That would be a violation of the law. (yeah, I know, you didn't read
> those bills and don't think they exist)

According to you the government ignores the laws (like the
Constitution) and does what it damn pleases.
Brent - 04 Nov 2009 19:37 GMT
>> Lacking any real arguments to make I see. Your attacks on me don't
>> change the manipulations and increases in power of the supreme court
>> which are facts of history.
>
> I did not attack you.

An out of the blue out-of-subject-out-of-drift attack wasn't personal,
sure.... whatever.

> I attacked your anti-government rants.

Even if I were to accept that characterization, you did so in reply to
an extremely brief summary of supreme court history. Very odd.

>  I stand by my position that if
> your rants were true, they'd have come and taken you away long ago,
> using the many powers and techniques you claim they have.

Your argument is like saying if your car's engine hasn't siezed a badly
performing oil pump that's getting worse is not a problem.

>> > When they come to take you away let us know.

>> That would be a violation of the law. (yeah, I know, you didn't read
>> those bills and don't think they exist)

> According to you the government ignores the laws (like the
> Constitution) and does what it damn pleases.

I guess you just need personal experience. Sooner or later you'll get
some. I won't expect an apology. Although I suspect you'll find a way to
rationalize it until the very end.
Stephen Sprunk - 04 Nov 2009 20:59 GMT
>> Lacking any real arguments to make I see. Your attacks on me don't
>> change the manipulations and increases in power of the supreme court
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> your rants were true, they'd have come and taken you away long ago,
> using the many powers and techniques you claim they have.

OTOH, if they did come and get him, that would lend credence to his
arguments.  By leaving him alone, they let him make a fool of himself.
It's not like loony on USENET poses any actual threat to the shadowy
figures behind the curtain, if in fact they do exist

S

Signature

Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Stephen Sprunk - 04 Nov 2009 15:52 GMT
BTW, your computer's clock appears to be way, way off; the date on your
article was 4 Nov 2009 10:42:07 +0800 (i.e. 4 Nov 2009 02:42:07 UTC),
but the server headers show it posted around 4 Nov 2009 14:35:43 UTC.
Are you sure you aren't actually in -0400?

>> Which is hardly unique to road use. Government can take land for
>> practically any purpose it decides now, including giving it to other
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> incorrectly on the Constitutionality of eminent domain to take private
> land and give it to other private landowners for private purposes.

SCOTUS cannot be legally incorrect (within the US) because they alone
decide what is "correct" WRT the US Constitution.

However, many states have reacted to their decision by severely limiting
how local governments can use their eminent domain powers.  If yours
isn't one of them, contact your state legislators.

S

Signature

Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Scott in SoCal - 04 Nov 2009 15:18 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, Brent
<tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> said:

>>> The costs of driving are mostly on the drivers. The bulk of what goes to
>>> non-drivers to pay are things like the roads in front of their houses
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>per event basis by a private company that competes with other private
>companies.

In AZ our fire and rescue was privatized to a company called
Rural/Metro. You paid an annual subscription fee of a few hundred
dollars, and they would come and fight your fire for no additional
charge. If you felt lucky and didn't subscribe, they would still come
and put your fire out, but then they would charge you a per-incident
fee which was many, many times higher than the annual subscription.

We subscribed, but only used them once: to come and remove an enormous
snake from our front porch. :)

>> Indeed, at a recent town meeting, we were told a proposed expansion
>> would require the town--at taxpayer's expense--to add four more police
>> cars.
>
>well, that sounds like justifying putting more revenue gathering
>employees on the roads to me.

One of the biggets problems with sprawl is that the taxpayers who live
in the older areas of the city end up paying for all the new
infrastructure that are needed by new developments. In CA we have a
law called "Mello-Roos" which basically avoids this whole problem.
Mello-Roos requires developers to sell bonds to fund new
infrastructure; the eventual buyers of the new homes pay off the bonds
through a special assessment on their property taxes over the next 20
years.

>> Actually the author is pretty much on target.  The benefits of transit
>> are given to a large segment of the population, not just those
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>Yeah, because transit is supported by all forms of taxation, not just
>taxes aimed at transportation.

And you think roads are not?
Brent - 04 Nov 2009 15:36 GMT
>>Yeah, because transit is supported by all forms of taxation, not just
>>taxes aimed at transportation.

> And you think roads are not?

I've been over this already. You could try to pay attention.
Scott in SoCal - 05 Nov 2009 03:34 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, Brent
<tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> said:

>>>Yeah, because transit is supported by all forms of taxation, not just
>>>taxes aimed at transportation.
>
>> And you think roads are not?
>
>I've been over this already.

So have I. See the first post this this thread, which clearly shows
that the same is true for roads.

>You could try to pay attention.

I will if you will.
Brent - 05 Nov 2009 04:05 GMT
> Last time on rec.autos.driving, Brent
><tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> said:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> So have I. See the first post this this thread, which clearly shows
> that the same is true for roads.

It doesn't show much of anything really. The 'non-transportation' taxes
I pay that go to transit, go almost entirely to transit that is rather
distant from me, that I have no use for. The 'non-transportation' taxes
that I pay that go to roads, go to the roads that are very close to my
property. The taxes I pay that are supposed to go to roads go to
practically anything else the state decides to apply them to.
Scott in SoCal - 05 Nov 2009 14:44 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, Brent
<tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> said:

>> Last time on rec.autos.driving, Brent
>><tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> said:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>I pay that go to transit, go almost entirely to transit that is rather
>distant from me

"Proximity to Brent" is irrelevant. The fact remains, roads are
supported by all forms of taxation, just like transit is. In some
cases (Orange County Measure M) the same tax supports both.

QED.
Orval Fairbairn - 05 Nov 2009 14:11 GMT
> Last time on rec.autos.driving, Brent
> <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> said:
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> QED.

... but roads are far more useful than transit -- anybody can use them;
they are compatible with the equipment that uses other roads; they have
direct access on a 24/7 schedule; their use doesn't depend on somebody
else's schedule.

Signature

Remove _'s  from email address to talk to me.

Clark F Morris - 06 Nov 2009 01:30 GMT
>> Last time on rec.autos.driving, Brent
>> <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> said:
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>direct access on a 24/7 schedule; their use doesn't depend on somebody
>else's schedule.

Try walking, bicycling or using a horse and buggy on a freeway
(actually there are some where you can but not many).  Try driving a
car if you're blind.  Transit isn't everything but for many it is
useful.
Scott M. Kozel - 06 Nov 2009 01:56 GMT
>> ... but roads are far more useful than transit -- anybody can use them;
>> they are compatible with the equipment that uses other roads; they have
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Try walking, bicycling or using a horse and buggy on a freeway
> (actually there are some where you can but not many).  

99% of the public road mileage is non-limited-access.

> Try driving a car if you're blind.

You don't have to drive a car to travel in it.

> Transit isn't everything but for many it is useful.

Roads carry transit buses, car pools and van pools.

Signature

Scott M. Kozel    Highway and Transportation History Websites
Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com
Capital Beltway Projects           http://www.capital-beltway.com
Philadelphia and Delaware Valley   http://www.pennways.com

Larry Sheldon - 06 Nov 2009 02:54 GMT
>> Transit isn't everything but for many it is useful.
>
> Roads carry transit buses, car pools and van pools.

Finally!  I've been wondering when you were going to get of the beer
trucks, bread trucks, gasoline trucks, meat trucks, vegetable trucks,
hay trucks, cattle trucks, grain trucks, moving trucks, ..... trucks.

Good work.
Signature

Requiescas in pace o email              Two identifying characteristics
                                             of System Administrators:
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio        Infallibility, and the ability to
                                             learn from their mistakes.
Eppure si rinfresca

ICBM Targeting Information:
    http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs
    http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml

Scott M. Kozel - 06 Nov 2009 03:28 GMT
>>> Transit isn't everything but for many it is useful.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Good work.

Well, yes, roads carry far more than just people ... they carry freight,
and in nearly all cases their rights-of-way carry public utilities.

Signature

Scott M. Kozel    Highway and Transportation History Websites
Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com
Capital Beltway Projects           http://www.capital-beltway.com
Philadelphia and Delaware Valley   http://www.pennways.com

Larry Sheldon - 06 Nov 2009 13:39 GMT
>>>> Transit isn't everything but for many it is useful.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Well, yes, roads carry far more than just people ... they carry freight,
> and in nearly all cases their rights-of-way carry public utilities.

My guess is the first roads were built to haul freight over, with the
news groups consumed with debates of whether the freight or the
armies.... hey!  you know what!  There are roads all over the place
named Military Road (we have two--"Old Military Road" being one).
Defense Highway, and such.  Don't remember any "Taxi Avenues, or "Bus
Drives".....

Signature

Requiescas in pace o email              Two identifying characteristics
                                             of System Administrators:
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio        Infallibility, and the ability to
                                             learn from their mistakes.
Eppure si rinfresca

ICBM Targeting Information:
    http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs
    http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml

video guy  -  www.locoworks.com - 06 Nov 2009 22:08 GMT
> >>>> Transit isn't everything but for many it is useful.
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

It would be "Bus Boulevard" and "Taxi Thruway".
Bernd Felsche - 06 Nov 2009 03:49 GMT
>>> ... but roads are far more useful than transit -- anybody can
>>> use them; they are compatible with the equipment that uses other
>>> roads; they have direct access on a 24/7 schedule; their use
>>> doesn't depend on somebody else's schedule.

>> Try walking, bicycling or using a horse and buggy on a freeway
>> (actually there are some where you can but not many).  

>99% of the public road mileage is non-limited-access.

Source of stats? And how are the 99% measured?

Are you indicating that there's a severe shortage of freeways?
Because more than 80% of my travel distance is usually on restricted
access roads. During vacations; I'd hazard a guess and make that
90%.

>> Try driving a car if you're blind.

>You don't have to drive a car to travel in it.

>> Transit isn't everything but for many it is useful.

>Roads carry transit buses, car pools and van pools.

And swimming pools!
Signature

/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | Politics is the art of looking for trouble,
X   against HTML mail     | finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly
/ \  and postings          | and applying the wrong remedies - Groucho Marx

Scott M. Kozel - 06 Nov 2009 12:15 GMT
>> 99% of the public road mileage is non-limited-access.
>
> Source of stats? And how are the 99% measured?

Centerline miles.  In the U.S. there are over 4 million miles of public
roads, and about 44 thousand miles of Interstate highways.

Signature

Scott M. Kozel    Highway and Transportation History Websites
Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com
Capital Beltway Projects           http://www.capital-beltway.com
Philadelphia and Delaware Valley   http://www.pennways.com

Stephen Sprunk - 06 Nov 2009 21:08 GMT
>>> 99% of the public road mileage is non-limited-access.
>>
>> Source of stats? And how are the 99% measured?
>
> Centerline miles.  In the U.S. there are over 4 million miles of public
> roads, and about 44 thousand miles of Interstate highways.

It'd be better to count lane-miles, and you haven't counted US and state
highways, which are far more numerous.

S

Signature

Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

rshersh@gmail.com - 06 Nov 2009 21:30 GMT
> >>> 99% of the public road mileage is non-limited-access.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> It'd be better to count lane-miles, and you haven't counted US and state
> highways, which are far more numerous.

kozel like the rest of the reason foundation twist stats to fit their
needs

what carries the most traffic

which is the most expensive to build and maintain

how much does it cost per lane mile to build
Randy "Hershey Highway" Hersh - 07 Nov 2009 00:03 GMT
>kozel like the rest of the reason foundation twist stats to fit their
>needs

And you just make crap up to fit your needs, and you won't admit it when you
get caught because you have no rocks.  I've already shown that.

I guess we can add hypocrisy to your list there Hershey Highway.

Signature

Don't forget to have your troll spayed or neutered

Scott M. Kozel - 06 Nov 2009 23:12 GMT
>>>> 99% of the public road mileage is non-limited-access.
>>> Source of stats? And how are the 99% measured?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> It'd be better to count lane-miles, and you haven't counted US and state
> highways, which are far more numerous.

That is irrelevant to the original point that I responded to, the
complaint that you can't ride a bike or walk on a freeway.  About 99% of
the public road mileage is non-freeway.

Signature

Scott M. Kozel    Highway and Transportation History Websites
Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com
Capital Beltway Projects           http://www.capital-beltway.com
Philadelphia and Delaware Valley   http://www.pennways.com

Jim Yanik - 06 Nov 2009 13:05 GMT
>>> ... but roads are far more useful than transit -- anybody can use
>>> them; they are compatible with the equipment that uses other roads;
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Roads carry transit buses, car pools and van pools.

and the food you eat,your medicines.

Signature

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

Orval Fairbairn - 06 Nov 2009 03:39 GMT
> >> Last time on rec.autos.driving, Brent
> >> <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> said:
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> car if you're blind.  Transit isn't everything but for many it is
> useful.

It would be far cheaper for the government to pay for taxi service for
those individuals than to build huge mass-transit systems.

Signature

Remove _'s  from email address to talk to me.

rshersh@gmail.com - 06 Nov 2009 05:40 GMT
> It would be far cheaper for the government to pay for taxi service for
> those individuals than to build huge mass-transit systems.
>
> -

oh, really

5.5  million a DAY use NYC transit

Look at the problems with the Phila transit strike

do you really think taxis can handle millions of rides?
Orval Fairbairn - 06 Nov 2009 18:39 GMT
In article
<17f24beb-6e32-4bc9-bd2d-f207cd601459@v30g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,

> > It would be far cheaper for the government to pay for taxi service for
> > those individuals than to build huge mass-transit systems.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> do you really think taxis can handle millions of rides?

That may hold for New York or Chicago, but, for the REST of the country,
it would be FAR cheaper!

Signature

Remove _'s  from email address to talk to me.

rshersh@gmail.com - 06 Nov 2009 20:33 GMT
On Nov 6, 1:39 pm, Orval Fairbairn <o_r_fairbairn@earth_link.net>
wrote:
> In article
> <17f24beb-6e32-4bc9-bd2d-f207cd601...@v30g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> --

lets see now,
It would be far cheaper for the government to pay for taxi service
for
> > > those individuals than to build huge mass-transit systems.

that is what you said

and now we have excluded NY, Chicago, and I guess Philly

http://www.miamidade.gov/transit/library/pdfs/rtr/2008-10_Ridership_Technical_Re
port.pdf


now this is Miami, a little over 300,000 use transit per weekday

that would be a hell of a lot of taxi trips not to mention adding
severely to congestion

but you don't know the first thing about Miami

all you do is talk thru your arse

and btw you can take the reason foundation crapola and shove it
Scott in SoCal - 06 Nov 2009 03:19 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, Orval Fairbairn
<o_r_fairbairn@earth_link.net> said:

>... but roads are far more useful than transit -- anybody can use them;

Anybody who can afford a car and who possesses the motor skills and
cognitive functions to properly operate one, you mean.

There will always be people who do not drive, either because they
can't or because they choose not to. There will be those who choose
public transit rather than incur the costs of purchasing, insuring,
and maintaining a (second) car.
Stephen Sprunk - 06 Nov 2009 20:30 GMT
> Last time on rec.autos.driving, Orval Fairbairn
> <o_r_fairbairn@earth_link.net> said:
>> ... but roads are far more useful than transit -- anybody can use them;
>
> Anybody who can afford a car and who possesses the motor skills and
> cognitive functions to properly operate one, you mean.

... and isn't too young or too old, and hasn't had their license
suspended or revoked, and who hasn't been convicted of certain offenses,
and who can afford insurance, and is in the country legally, etc.

There are a _lot_ of people who can't drive for one reason or another.

> There will always be people who do not drive, either because they
> can't or because they choose not to. There will be those who choose
> public transit rather than incur the costs of purchasing, insuring,
> and maintaining a (second) car.

OTOH, why should the rest of us subsidize those who either can't or
won't drive rather than forcing them to pay the full cost of their
transit use?

(I support ending subsidies to _both_ modes so that consumers will make
a more rational economic choice.)

S

Signature

Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Scott in SoCal - 07 Nov 2009 06:00 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org>
said:

>> Last time on rec.autos.driving, Orval Fairbairn
>> <o_r_fairbairn@earth_link.net> said:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>There are a _lot_ of people who can't drive for one reason or another.

And there are a lot more who SHOULDN'T drive, but do so anyway because
the current public transit system isn't as usable as it should be. How
many Russel Weller types could we remove from the roads if they had
adequate alternatives to driving available to them?
Miles Bader - 07 Nov 2009 06:35 GMT
>>... and isn't too young or too old, and hasn't had their license
>>suspended or revoked, and who hasn't been convicted of certain offenses,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> many Russel Weller types could we remove from the roads if they had
> adequate alternatives to driving available to them?

... not to mention, er, "temporarily incapacitated" (i.e., drunk) people ....

-Miles

Signature

Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time.  -- Steven Wright

rshersh@gmail.com - 06 Nov 2009 05:43 GMT
> ... but roads are far more useful than transit -- anybody can use them;
> they are compatible with the equipment that uses other roads; they have
> direct access on a 24/7 schedule; their use doesn't depend on somebody
> else's schedule.
>
> --

and they require a very heavy subsidy

those overloaded trucks do tremendous damage
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 10 Nov 2009 00:49 GMT
On Nov 5, 9:11 am, Orval Fairbairn <o_r_fairbairn@earth_link.net>
wrote:

> ... but roads are far more useful than transit -- anybody can use them;
> they are compatible with the equipment that uses other roads; they have
> direct access on a 24/7 schedule; their use doesn't depend on somebody
> else's schedule.

You don't listen to traffic reports, do you?

Most motor trips, short and long, require checking the clock first.
No point going out during rush hours since roads are jammed.  No point
going out during peak weekend shopping or leisure travel since roads
are jammed.

Our network of old roads also requires heavy maintenance which means
detours and closures.  This must be checked for in advance to avoid
jamups, too.  Even in rural places or at 3 a.m. the jamups are
terrible from maintenance work.

Then there's accidents which shut down roads until it's all cleaned
up.
Brent - 05 Nov 2009 16:32 GMT
> Last time on rec.autos.driving, Brent
><tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> said:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> supported by all forms of taxation, just like transit is. In some
> cases (Orange County Measure M) the same tax supports both.

I don't know about the state you live in, but all forms do not go to
roads here in IL where the road funds are raided for other purposes year
after year. Chicago gets it's yearly state support for the CTA though.
People down in carbondale pay for transit in chicago even if they've
never been on a bus or a train in their lives.
Matthew Russotto - 05 Nov 2009 18:57 GMT
>I don't know about the state you live in, but all forms do not go to
>roads here in IL where the road funds are raided for other purposes year
>after year. Chicago gets it's yearly state support for the CTA though.
>People down in carbondale pay for transit in chicago even if they've
>never been on a bus or a train in their lives.

Here in Pennsylvania, the Governor attempted to get tolls on
Interstate 80 (runs E-W across the middle of the state) to provide
money for SEPTA (SouthEast Pennsylvania Public Transit Authority or
similar -- serves the Philadelphia suburbs, not including any part of
I-80).  Fortunately the feds wouldn't go for it, but the audacity of
it was really something.

Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 04 Nov 2009 17:49 GMT
> One of the biggets problems with sprawl is that the taxpayers who live
> in the older areas of the city end up paying for all the new
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> through a special assessment on their property taxes over the next 20
> years.

That's nice for Calif, but a problem exactly as you describe
elsewhere.

A lot of people have selfish greedy interests in creating more
sprawl.  They run businesses that support it or they like living far
away.  The problem is that the rest of supports their lifestyle
through higher taxes and utility fees.
Scott in SoCal - 05 Nov 2009 03:36 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com said:

>> One of the biggets problems with sprawl is that the taxpayers who live
>> in the older areas of the city end up paying for all the new
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>That's nice for Calif, but a problem exactly as you describe
>elsewhere.

Then the rest of you need to get off your lazy a.ses and get your
elected representatives to enact similar legislation. If we could do
it, you can, too.
Stephen Sprunk - 05 Nov 2009 04:52 GMT
> Last time on rec.autos.driving, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com said:
>>> One of the biggets problems with sprawl is that the taxpayers who live
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> elected representatives to enact similar legislation. If we could do
> it, you can, too.

Exactly.  If one isn't happy with the laws, talk to the people who are
responsible for writing them, not a bunch of random nobodies on the
Internet.

Where I live, one of the conditions for getting a zoning change is that
the developers must agree to put in the roads, utilities, schools, etc.
necessary to serve their development.  The cost is then built directly
into the price of the houses, not borne by existing residents.  It'd be
nice if that were actually state law, but it works just fine as a city
ordinance in the places that have adopted it.  Those who haven't will
suffer the logical result of their (in)action.

(It's also rather easy to get such laws passed, since (a) the people who
pay the costs, the new residents, don't actually live there yet and
therefore can't vote against the politicians until it's too late, (b)
the existing residents, who _do_ vote, will love it, and (c) it raises
property values, which means more tax revenue for the politicians to spend.)

S

Signature

Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Brent - 05 Nov 2009 05:12 GMT
>> Then the rest of you need to get off your lazy a.ses and get your
>> elected representatives to enact similar legislation. If we could do
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> responsible for writing them, not a bunch of random nobodies on the
> Internet.

I have to wonder if the people who write the above have ever written
their so-called representives. Eventually one learns it's pretty
pointless. Especially when said representives vote entirely different
than nearly everyone who wrote and called them to express their views.
Matthew Russotto - 05 Nov 2009 18:46 GMT
>>> Then the rest of you need to get off your lazy a.ses and get your
>>> elected representatives to enact similar legislation. If we could do
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>pointless. Especially when said representives vote entirely different
>than nearly everyone who wrote and called them to express their views.

Naa.  Whatever you do, they'll claim you should be doing something
else.
Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

Larry Sheldon - 05 Nov 2009 18:55 GMT
> Naa.  Whatever you do, they'll claim you should be doing something
> else.

Like the sign I saw pictures of--something like "It doesn't matter what
I write on this sign, you will report that it is racist">

Signature

Requiescas in pace o email              Two identifying characteristics
                                             of System Administrators:
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio        Infallibility, and the ability to
                                             learn from their mistakes.
Eppure si rinfresca

ICBM Targeting Information:
    http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs
    http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml

larrysheldonisalyingfuckinghypocrite - 05 Nov 2009 19:06 GMT
> > Naa.  Whatever you do, they'll claim you should be doing something
> > else.
>
> Like the sign I saw pictures of--something like "It doesn't matter what
> I write on this sign, you will report that it is racist">

mtr, niggers can do no wrong
Stephen Sprunk - 06 Nov 2009 21:24 GMT
>>> Then the rest of you need to get off your lazy a.ses and get your
>>> elected representatives to enact similar legislation. If we could do
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> their so-called representives. Eventually one learns it's pretty
> pointless.

I've found little point in writing or calling _my_ representatives,
because they usually agree with me.  In the few areas where I disagree
with their actions, the most common response is "You're right, but I'd
get killed in the next election if I did that."

OTOH, there's not much point in writing or calling the others because
they know I can't vote for them.

Still, letting the politicians know your views is important because (a)
it shows you actually care about a particular issue, unlike a poll, and
(b) you can give more detailed position information (or even an entire
proposal) than the simple "for", "against", or "don't know" that most
polls limit you to.

> Especially when said representives vote entirely different than nearly
> everyone who wrote and called them to express their views.

So toss 'em out at the next election.  Contribute to or even campaign
for their opponent--provided their opponent has a different position,
which they often don't.

Another trick is voting in the _opposite_ party's primary rather than
your own, so you can try to tilt the opponent selection to someone that
is less offensive to you.  Most people ignore the primaries, so your
vote has significantly more power there as well.

S

Signature

Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Brent - 06 Nov 2009 22:38 GMT
>>>> Then the rest of you need to get off your lazy a.ses and get your
>>>> elected representatives to enact similar legislation. If we could do
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>> their so-called representives. Eventually one learns it's pretty
>> pointless.

> I've found little point in writing or calling _my_ representatives,
> because they usually agree with me.  In the few areas where I disagree
> with their actions, the most common response is "You're right, but I'd
> get killed in the next election if I did that."

Sure it wasn't just 'killed'? :)  I don't know who your representives
are but to be in that much agreement with any of them outside a few
exceptions sounds rather disturbing. One of the VERY rare occasions I
got an actual response from a representive it was not one I could vote
for but I wrote him because of his enlightened keep-right-except to pass
legislation. I gave a quick primer on the 85th percentile method for
speed limits. The reply was him saying it was 'interesting'. That's it.

> OTOH, there's not much point in writing or calling the others because
> they know I can't vote for them.

> Still, letting the politicians know your views is important because (a)
> it shows you actually care about a particular issue, unlike a poll, and
> (b) you can give more detailed position information (or even an entire
> proposal) than the simple "for", "against", or "don't know" that most
> polls limit you to.

And then you get a stock form letter reply that shows they didn't even
take the time to read it.

>> Especially when said representives vote entirely different than nearly
>> everyone who wrote and called them to express their views.

> So toss 'em out at the next election.  Contribute to or even campaign
> for their opponent--provided their opponent has a different position,
> which they often don't.

That worked well for the POTUS. People voted for change and got George
Bush's 3rd term. someone once said 'if voting changed anything it would
be illegal'. Speaking of the POTUS, he's one of the representives I used
to write.

> Another trick is voting in the _opposite_ party's primary rather than
> your own, so you can try to tilt the opponent selection to someone that
> is less offensive to you.  Most people ignore the primaries, so your
> vote has significantly more power there as well.

1) The lesser evil is still evil.
2) The two party system does not offer opposites. It offers two slightly
different forms of statism.
3) Here in c(r)ook county there is only one primary to vote in, the
democrat primary, it is the election. The ballot for the republican
party primary is usually nearly blank. To support the one worthwild
(IMO) canidate for POTUS last year I had to give up voting in a number
of local elections decided by the democrat primary.
4) The election process is anything but fair. I predict Todd Stroger
will be re-elected c(r)ook county board president but few if anyone,
probably nobody, will admit having voted for him.

The system just doesn't work, isn't fair, and the choices well
controlled. That's why everything stays the course.

Just checked my email, I got a nice ignorant of the facts reply from a
representive again. Nice Iran scare-mongering coupled with calls for
economic sanctions and an attitude of using 'stength' that will probably
eventually lead to war. Fun. More killing, more death, more empire. For
what? Lies and paranoia. He actually expects me to believe that Iran's
newish enrichment facility was secret when the IAEA was notified as
required by treaty. Democrat or republican, it's the same nonsense.
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 10 Nov 2009 00:55 GMT
> I have to wonder if the people who write the above have ever written
> their so-called representives. Eventually one learns it's pretty
> pointless. Especially when said representives vote entirely different
> than nearly everyone who wrote and called them to express their views.

Actually, our representatives have been quite responsive to community
input.

In one example, our tax formula was unfair and we petitioned to change
it to a more equitable amount.  It was done.

In another example, we had opinions on how to use a certain parcel
land.  It was done.

Responsible citizens are invited to join special committees or boards
and help make policy.

_Anybody_  with a reasonable platform can run for and win entry level
political office and be a part of the process.
Brent - 10 Nov 2009 01:57 GMT
>> I have to wonder if the people who write the above have ever written
>> their so-called representives. Eventually one learns it's pretty
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Actually, our representatives have been quite responsive to community
> input.

that's nice.

> In one example, our tax formula was unfair and we petitioned to change
> it to a more equitable amount.  It was done.

Nobody even understands the formula in cook county IL.

> In another example, we had opinions on how to use a certain parcel
> land.  It was done.

Government telling someone what to do with their land. Nice.

> Responsible citizens are invited to join special committees or boards
> and help make policy.

Try writing Mr. Obama. He was an Il senator once ya know.

> _Anybody_  with a reasonable platform can run for and win entry level
> political office and be a part of the process.

So to be left alone one needs to gain political protection by being
elected to office?
Scott in SoCal - 05 Nov 2009 14:47 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org>
said:

>(It's also rather easy to get [Mello-Roos-type] laws passed, since (a) the people who
>pay the costs, the new residents, don't actually live there yet and
>therefore can't vote against the politicians until it's too late, (b)
>the existing residents, who _do_ vote, will love it, and (c) it raises
>property values, which means more tax revenue for the politicians to spend.)

The only factor you left out is the developer lobby, which can be
expected to fight such laws tooth and nail because they raise the
price of houses and (potentially) reduce sales. Which may explain why
we don't see more of these laws being enacted.
Gary V - 04 Nov 2009 22:52 GMT
On Nov 3, 11:11 pm, hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> > The costs of driving are mostly on the drivers. The bulk of what goes to
> > non-drivers to pay are things like the roads in front of their houses
> > and businesses who choose not charge separately for parking*.
>
> And things like lost property taxes when a new or expanded road is
> built on what was once private productive land.

But the land surrounding the new road will now become more developed,
leading to a higher tax base.
rshersh@gmail.com - 04 Nov 2009 23:02 GMT
> But the land surrounding the new road will now become more developed,
> leading to a higher tax base.

crapola

if that were true every county beside an exit on the interstates would
be flush with cash
Kenny McCormack - 03 Nov 2009 17:37 GMT
>>> Americans because it is what economists refer to as a "free good": the
>>> consumer pays only a fraction of its true cost. The authors Stanley
>
>That is the purest nonsense.

I assume that you've woken up and figured out what we adults mean by
"free good", so I won't bother addressing that.

>Does money grow on trees?  Do you find it under rocks?  (No, those
>people are trying to stop mining.)  Do you pump it out of the ground?
>(Same problem).
>
>The consumer pays all of the cost and more.  There is no free lunch.

(Not really in response to your post, but rather to the thread-in-general)

The real problem with car ownership is that most of the costs are sunk
costs (aka, fixed costs) - that is, not "marginal".  The marginal costs
of me going on a trip are virtually zero, so there is no disincentive to
my doing so.

That major costs (which are, as I say, not determined much or at all by
how much I drive) are:
   1) Purchasing/maintaining the vehicle
   2) Taxes (as the original article made clear - a lot of tax dollars
    go to subsidizing private vehicle ownership and usage)

Note that I am not arguing any particular position here, w.r.t. the
usual "car good/car bad" flamage of this NG.  Just pointing out that the
economics are muddied.
Larry Sheldon - 03 Nov 2009 23:53 GMT
> The real problem with car ownership is that most of the costs are sunk
> costs (aka, fixed costs) - that is, not "marginal".  The marginal costs
> of me going on a trip are virtually zero, so there is no disincentive to
> my doing so.

Well, yeah.  That is true.

If somebody else (there is that point again!0 is paying for your fuel,
lubricants. windshield washer fluid, insurance(some of which is mileage
sensitive here), and tires.  Did I mention fuel?  Or parking? Or tolls?
   I have to pay $35 for no other reason that I live too close to Omaha.
Matthew Russotto - 04 Nov 2009 16:48 GMT
>The real problem with car ownership is that most of the costs are sunk
>costs (aka, fixed costs) - that is, not "marginal".  The marginal costs
>of me going on a trip are virtually zero, so there is no disincentive to
>my doing so.

This is true, but not at all a subsidy.  Mostly what it does is make
transit use (even at heavily subsidized rates) uneconomical for a car
owner.

>That major costs (which are, as I say, not determined much or at all by
>how much I drive) are:
>    1) Purchasing/maintaining the vehicle
>    2) Taxes (as the original article made clear - a lot of tax dollars
>    go to subsidizing private vehicle ownership and usage)

Said tax dollars being mostly taken from drivers in the first place.
Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

Kenny McCormack - 04 Nov 2009 22:17 GMT
>>The real problem with car ownership is that most of the costs are sunk
>>costs (aka, fixed costs) - that is, not "marginal".  The marginal costs
>>of me going on a trip are virtually zero, so there is no disincentive to
>>my doing so.
>
>This is true, but not at all a subsidy.

I don't think I clamed that it was.

>Mostly what it does is make
>transit use (even at heavily subsidized rates) uneconomical for a car
>owner.

Agreed.  But I like transit and use it when it makes sense - which is to
say, when you live in one of the two cities in the US (to the best of my
knowledge) where the system density is high enough to make it work.

Clarification of "to make it work": I mean, outside of normal to-and-fro
the office commuting.  I have, in fact, very rarely used transit for
commuting.  I've used it a lot for recreation.

>>That major costs (which are, as I say, not determined much or at all by
>>how much I drive) are:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Said tax dollars being mostly taken from drivers in the first place.

Right.  And that's the whole point - that it is a fixed cost.
You cannot control it by driving less.
Scott in SoCal - 05 Nov 2009 03:38 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew
Russotto) said:

>>The real problem with car ownership is that most of the costs are sunk
>>costs (aka, fixed costs) - that is, not "marginal".  The marginal costs
>>of me going on a trip are virtually zero, so there is no disincentive to
>>my doing so.
>
>This is true

Unless you count the less tangible costs of congestion, stress, and
lost time. Every extra car that you add to the roads slows every other
car down by a small but measurable amount.
Matthew Russotto - 04 Nov 2009 16:07 GMT
>[Excerpt from "Suburban Nation" by Andres Duany and Elizabeth
>Plater-Zybeck, pp. 94-7.]

[...]
>THE AUTOMOBILE SUBSIDY
>To what extent is automobile use a "free" good? According to Hart and
>Spivak, government subsidies for highways and parking alone amount to
>between 8 and 10 percent of our gross national product, the equivalent
>of a fuel tax of approximately $3.50 per gallon.

It's easy to prove your point if you just make up numbers.

>If this tax were to
>account for "soft" costs such as pollution cleanup and emergency
>medical treatment, it would be as high as $9.00 per gallon.

And even easier if you make up numbers which don't have enough
substance to be falsified.

Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

Larry Sheldon - 04 Nov 2009 16:42 GMT
> It's easy to prove your point if you just make up numbers.

87% of all statistics quoted here were made up on-the-fly.
Scott in SoCal - 05 Nov 2009 03:40 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew
Russotto) said:

>>[Excerpt from "Suburban Nation" by Andres Duany and Elizabeth
>>Plater-Zybeck, pp. 94-7.]
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>It's easy to prove your point if you just make up numbers.

Are you claiming that their numbers are made up? If so, you'll
cheerfully supply the correct numbers as well as your source for them,
right?
Matthew Russotto - 05 Nov 2009 18:43 GMT
>Last time on rec.autos.driving, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew
>Russotto) said:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>cheerfully supply the correct numbers as well as your source for them,
>right?

I'm not going to go through such lengths to argue with a hit-and-run
poster quoting from whatever his latest holy book is.  At least not
until he posts his own sources and calculations so _I_ can verify
them.
Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

Scott in SoCal - 06 Nov 2009 03:22 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew
Russotto) said:

>>>It's easy to prove your point if you just make up numbers.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>I'm not going to go through such lengths to argue with a hit-and-run
>poster quoting from whatever his latest holy book is.

Translation: you cannot refuse my points with substantive points of
your own, so you resort to Ad Homonem attacks.
Matthew Russotto - 07 Nov 2009 04:30 GMT
>Last time on rec.autos.driving, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew
>Russotto) said:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>Translation: you cannot refuse my points with substantive points of
>your own, so you resort to Ad Homonem attacks.

You don't have any points.  You're not the person who posted the
numbers.  And if the standard is that anti-car folk get to post a
bunch of numbers without any real backing, and they stand until
non-anti-car folk provide figures which are verifiable, the game is
riged.
Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

Larry Sheldon - 07 Nov 2009 05:43 GMT
> You don't have any points.  You're not the person who posted the
> numbers.  And if the standard is that anti-car folk get to post a
> bunch of numbers without any real backing, and they stand until
> non-anti-car folk provide figures which are verifiable, the game is
> rigged.

Watching enlightenment occur is a wonderful thing.
Scott in SoCal - 07 Nov 2009 06:02 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew
Russotto) said:

>>Last time on rec.autos.driving, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew
>>Russotto) said:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>You don't have any points.  You're not the person who posted the
>numbers.  

Nitpick all you like, the fact remains: you can't refute the points I
posted.
Matthew Russotto - 09 Nov 2009 02:10 GMT
>Last time on rec.autos.driving, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew
>Russotto) said:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>Nitpick all you like, the fact remains: you can't refute the points I
>posted.

You didn't post any points.
Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

John David Galt - 07 Nov 2009 19:59 GMT
> But the real question is why so many drivers choose to sit for hours
> in bumper-to-bumper traffic without seeking alternatives.

We do seek alternatives.  The next time you want to complain about
people trying to use your neighborhood street as a shortcut, realize
that they're engaged in exactly that search.

> Is it a
> manifestation of some deep-seated self-loathing, or are people just
> stupid? The answer is that people are actually quite smart, and their
> decision to submit themselves to the misery of suburban commuting is a
> sophisticated response to a set of circumstances that are as troubling
> as their result.

No one "decides to submit" to suburban commuting.  Job availability and
the scam known as urban planning dictate where we live and work.  Blame
the a.sholes who support your county's general plan every 5 years.

> Automobile use is the intelligent choice for Americans because

it is man's greatest enabling technology, and would continue to be worth
using at ten times the price.  Whether we're rich enough to do so is
another question, but make no mistake: if those who would ban, restrict,
or more heavily tax automobile use succeed, we will all be much poorer
for their efforts.  And that's no accident.  They are at war with your
right to enjoy life.
larrysheldonisalyingfuckinghypocrite - 07 Nov 2009 20:21 GMT
On Nov 7, 2:59 pm, John David Galt <j...@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us>
wrote:
> > But the real question is why so many drivers choose to sit for hours
> > in bumper-to-bumper traffic without seeking alternatives.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> for their efforts.  And that's no accident.  They are at war with your
> right to enjoy life.

straight out of the mouthpiece of the4 reason foundation

notwithstanding that oil prices and supplies are not going to be
stable forever
John David Galt - 10 Nov 2009 00:39 GMT
>>> Automobile use is the intelligent choice for Americans because

>> it is man's greatest enabling technology, and would continue to be worth
>> using at ten times the price.  Whether we're rich enough to do so is
>> another question, but make no mistake: if those who would ban, restrict,
>> or more heavily tax automobile use succeed, we will all be much poorer
>> for their efforts.  And that's no accident.  They are at war with your
>> right to enjoy life.

> straight out of the mouthpiece of the reason foundation

Funny, I've always thought of them as MY mouthpiece, which is why I've
been a subscriber since 1977.

> notwithstanding that oil prices and supplies are not going to be
> stable forever

http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2006/04/where_to_put_al.html
Clark F Morris - 08 Nov 2009 03:29 GMT
>> But the real question is why so many drivers choose to sit for hours
>> in bumper-to-bumper traffic without seeking alternatives.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>for their efforts.  And that's no accident.  They are at war with your
>right to enjoy life.

And for anyone who believes that the current suburban landscape and
industrial development in the boondocks isn't due to planning on
various levels, I have the right to collect tolls on the Brooklyn
Bridge for sale.  In many suburbs, planning restrictions in commercial
(retain, industrial, office) require setbacks and lot sizes that make
the area transit hostile.  Lot density restrictions (needed for areas
with septic systems rather than sewers) drive up the cost of housing
and roads to service them.  Allowing industrial commercial development
and banning low/moderate income housing adds to the cost and time of
commuting to low wage jobs.  What most people are saying when they
complain about smart growth planners is not that planners are bad but
that a particular type of planner is bad.  Bluntly before I got
married and moved to a farm in rural Nova Scotia, the type of planning
that encouraged businesses to move to a suburban location NOT served
by transit and difficult to serve by transit even if desired was at
war with MY RIGHT TO ENJOY LIFE.  Not everyone wants a house with at
least an acre of land.
Stephen Sprunk - 08 Nov 2009 05:18 GMT
>> Automobile use is the intelligent choice for Americans because
>> it is man's greatest enabling technology, and would continue to be worth
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> and banning low/moderate income housing adds to the cost and time of
> commuting to low wage jobs.

Setbacks, lot sizes, and mandatory parking (it's not up to the property
owner in many places) are big problems, yes, but IMHO the single biggest
factor is zoning.

You can't have dense, walkable neighborhoods without mixed-use property,
and that is against the law in most major US cities.

Without dense, walkable neighborhoods, the best you're going to see is
P&R rail stations for suburban commuters to get to older, walkable
business centers and underutilized buses for people too poor to buy a car.

> What most people are saying when they complain about smart growth
> planners is not that planners are bad but that a particular type of
> planner is bad.

What I've seen so far of "Smart Growth" is ridiculous, but it may be the
best that can be done without overhauling the zoning and other relevant
laws.

> Not everyone wants a house with at least an acre of land.

Exactly.  However, in most US cities your only choices are a
single-family detached house or renting an apartment.  Townhouses, if
any exist, may only be available for rental, not purchase--and they also
tend to be significantly smaller than a detached house.

There are a couple square miles here where townhouses and condos are
legal, but the artificially limited supply (by the city planners'
design) and massive unmet demand has pushed the prices to 3-4 times what
one would pay for a detached house in the 'burbs with 2-4 times the
square footage.  It just doesn't make sense for most people.

S

Signature

Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 10 Nov 2009 00:43 GMT
On Nov 7, 2:59 pm, John David Galt <j...@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us>
wrote:

> > Automobile use is the intelligent choice for Americans because
>
> it is man's greatest enabling technology, and would continue to be worth
> using at ten times the price.  

Well then it's time for the users of the automobile pay for the full
price if providing it.  Now automotive users are subsidized by general
tax dollars, like property taxes.  A Washington Post editorial, posted
here not long ago, said auto user fees covered only 60% of the costs.
Others say it's more, but at best it's 90%.

>They are at war with your
> right to enjoy life.

Sitting in a traffic jam is not anyone's idea of enjoying life.

Inventing strawmen "those who would ban automobiles" to blame for
inadequate roads is ridiculous.  Very, very few people want to ban
automobiles and they're lumped in with the "earth is flat" or the
"Martians have taken over" crowd; that is, not taken seriously at all.

Roads are extremely costly to build.  Land is finite and building a
road today--as opposed to the 1950s--means bulldozing homes, stores,
factories, and offices, which ain't cheap to do.  Naturally the
business people who will be shut down and the homeowners who will be
kicked out (or worse, left against a busy highway outside their
bedroom window) object to such projects and with good reason.  Their
quality life is worth something to them, you know.

Raising tolls or taxes to pay for needed roads is political suicide.
George Conklin - 10 Nov 2009 22:40 GMT
On Nov 7, 2:59 pm, John David Galt <j...@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us>
wrote:
> Scott in SoCal wrote:

> > Automobile use is the intelligent choice for Americans because
>
> it is man's greatest enabling technology, and would continue to be worth
> using at ten times the price.

Well then it's time for the users of the automobile pay for the full
price if providing it.  Now automotive users are subsidized by general
tax dollars, like property taxes.  A Washington Post editorial, posted
here not long ago, said auto user fees covered only 60% of the costs.
Others say it's more, but at best it's 90%.

----

  You can get this nonsense only by calling jails, police, city streets and
health care all due to the use of the automobile.  Why not call city streets
"horse subsidies," since that is when the DC streets were laid down.

>They are at war with your
> right to enjoy life.

Sitting in a traffic jam is not anyone's idea of enjoying life.

Inventing strawmen "those who would ban automobiles" to blame for
inadequate roads is ridiculous.  Very, very few people want to ban
automobiles and they're lumped in with the "earth is flat" or the
"Martians have taken over" crowd; that is, not taken seriously at all.

Roads are extremely costly to build.  Land is finite and building a
road today--as opposed to the 1950s--means bulldozing homes, stores,
factories, and offices, which ain't cheap to do.  Naturally the
business people who will be shut down and the homeowners who will be
kicked out (or worse, left against a busy highway outside their
bedroom window) object to such projects and with good reason.  Their
quality life is worth something to them, you know.

Raising tolls or taxes to pay for needed roads is political suicide.
Brent - 10 Nov 2009 23:10 GMT
> Well then it's time for the users of the automobile pay for the full
> price if providing it.

They already do.

>  Now automotive users are subsidized by general
> tax dollars, like property taxes.  

The vast majority of payers are drivers.

> A Washington Post editorial, posted
> here not long ago, said auto user fees covered only 60% of the costs.
> Others say it's more, but at best it's 90%.

You'll note that the people doing such creative math have no intention
of lowering those other taxes and replacing them with direct taxes
related to driving. They actually want even more taxes on driving that
they can use for OTHER purpose. It's a game to raise taxes and make us
all poorer while feeding an anti-car agenda.

Go ahead and eliminate all other tax money that goes to roads BUT end
all diversion of taxes on motorists to other purposes. Also taxes on the
sale of automobiles, parts, fuels, service etc go to the roads. That
is all those things that are for driving or trucking nearly
exclusively. Now see who is being subsidized.

The amount of money currently flowing into even general taxes based on
people driving should be an astoundingly huge figure that will have most
of  the 'true cost of driving people' scrambling to come up with excuses
why those taxes can't be classified as driving related... maybe because
someone somewhere might buy an alternator from an '89 buick to use
in a science project from a junk yard. Odd exceptions like that. But we
all know that those sales are entirely because people drive.
Brent - 10 Nov 2009 23:11 GMT
>> Well then it's time for the users of the automobile pay for the full
>> price if providing it.
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> in a science project from a junk yard. Odd exceptions like that. But we
> all know that those sales are entirely because people drive.
                              ^almost
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 11 Nov 2009 02:35 GMT
> > Well then it's time for the users of the automobile pay for the full
> > price if providing it.
>
> They already do.

No, they do not.

> >  Now automotive users are subsidized by general
> > tax dollars, like property taxes.  
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> they can use for OTHER purpose. It's a game to raise taxes and make us
> all poorer while feeding an anti-car agenda.

Considering those who state the 90% figure (meaning 10% of road costs
are subsidized by the general taxpayer) are passionate automobile
advocates, your argument doesn't hold up.  In a recent discussion,
someone quoted a Federal Govt website giving a figure of 72% coverage
(28% subsidy).  These figures include diversions in both directions
and represent the net subsidy.

Obviously there is some variation by state because some states with a
low gasoline tax have a greater subsidy from other soures, such as
property taxes.

> Go ahead and eliminate all other tax money that goes to roads BUT end
> all diversion of taxes on motorists to other purposes. Also taxes on the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> in a science project from a junk yard. Odd exceptions like that. But we
> all know that those sales are entirely because people drive.
Brent - 11 Nov 2009 04:06 GMT
>> > Well then it's time for the users of the automobile pay for the full
>> > price if providing it.
>>
>> They already do.
>
> No, they do not.

Motorists pay all the taxes directly on driving.
Motorists also pay all the other taxes that aren't about driving.
So, yes they do.

>> >  Now automotive users are subsidized by general
>> > tax dollars, like property taxes.  
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>> they can use for OTHER purpose. It's a game to raise taxes and make us
>> all poorer while feeding an anti-car agenda.

> Considering those who state the 90% figure (meaning 10% of road costs
> are subsidized by the general taxpayer) are passionate automobile
> advocates, your argument doesn't hold up.  In a recent discussion,
> someone quoted a Federal Govt website giving a figure of 72% coverage
> (28% subsidy).  These figures include diversions in both directions
> and represent the net subsidy.

And yet federal and state highway funds are openly raided and automobile
related businesses are great generators of taxed commerce.

Go ahead, put all the taxes collected directly on driving and all the
taxes collected on commerce directly from driving (sales taxes on auto
parts, auto service, tires, gasoline, etc) to the roads and only the
roads. The loser will be everything else tax money is spent on.

>> Go ahead and eliminate all other tax money that goes to roads BUT end
>> all diversion of taxes on motorists to other purposes. Also taxes on the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>> in a science project from a junk yard. Odd exceptions like that. But we
>> all know that those sales are entirely because people drive.
Larry Sheldon - 11 Nov 2009 04:51 GMT
>>>> Well then it's time for the users of the automobile pay for the full
>>>> price if providing it.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Motorists also pay all the other taxes that aren't about driving.
> So, yes they do.

It is a concept that is impossible to get through--I think I'm about
done with the attempts with this.

Every thing that is done--boring holes in the earth, laing tracks or
pavement, you name it--has to be paid for.  There is no "free" anything.

The value comes from people and organizations who create stuff.  There
is no other source.

Sometimes the value flows efficiently from the person that wants
something to the person that can deliver it, sometimes we have stupidly
put in lossy paths where thieves steal some of the value but add nothing.

But in every case a good or service that is provided has to be paid for,
and the value to pay for it comes from, can come only from the providers
or other goods and services.

It is barter and trade, sometimes with middlemen who add value,
sometimes with politicians and bureaucrats that add none.
Scott M. Kozel - 11 Nov 2009 05:27 GMT
>>>>> Well then it's time for the users of the automobile pay for the full
>>>>> price if providing it.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> and the value to pay for it comes from, can come only from the providers
> or other goods and services.

You have to realize who you are dealing with ... these posters who
constantly harp about the "car subsidy" are posting from the railroad
newsgroup, most of them live in the concrete jungle, and they are
victims of one-dimensional railroad-like thinking patterns ...

Signature

Scott M. Kozel    Highway and Transportation History Websites
Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com
Capital Beltway Projects           http://www.capital-beltway.com
Philadelphia and Delaware Valley   http://www.pennways.com

Jim Yanik - 11 Nov 2009 13:23 GMT
> You have to realize who you are dealing with ... these posters who
> constantly harp about the "car subsidy" are posting from the railroad
> newsgroup, most of them live in the concrete jungle, and they are
> victims of one-dimensional railroad-like thinking patterns ...

yes,but THEY want the power to determine OUR lifestyles.

In -every- facet of it,too.

Obama has said he'd like gas prices to climb to $10 a gallon,
only -slowly-,so the frogs don't know they're being boiled.
He wants to move people to public transpo.
Thus,his no-drill ANWR policy.

Signature

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

rshersh@gmail.com - 11 Nov 2009 18:10 GMT
> > You have to realize who you are dealing with ... these posters who
> > constantly harp about the "car subsidy" are posting from the railroad
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> --

what did Obama have to do with the run up of gas prices during the
Bush Adm?

who was responsible for that?

and who got the money?  it certainly did not benefit US transportation

and btw was he responsible for Ida's effect of Gulf production.

what are gas prices going to be like after a year of BIG gulf
hurricanes?

you are going to continue to believe in very dumb luck

And btw it would take about 10 yrs for ANWR oil to hit and with our
usage it would be the proverbial spit in the ocean

so you want to be beholden to the House of Saud forever and ever????

no matter what you may believe, at least President Obama wants to do
something.

What is your solution?????
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 11 Nov 2009 22:08 GMT
> Obama has said he'd like gas prices to climb to $10 a gallon,

Exactly when and where did he say this?  In what context?
George Conklin - 11 Nov 2009 22:35 GMT
> >>>>> Well then it's time for the users of the automobile pay for the full
> >>>>> price if providing it.
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> newsgroup, most of them live in the concrete jungle, and they are
> victims of one-dimensional railroad-like thinking patterns ...

   Scott, you forget that rail riders are MORALLY superior to car drivers,
and thus they can cook up secret subsidies every day and you can't object.
Really. -:)
Scott in SoCal - 12 Nov 2009 04:24 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, "George Conklin" <nil@earthlink.net>
said:

>    Scott, you forget that rail riders are MORALLY superior to car drivers

<shrug> You said it, not me.
Clark F Morris - 12 Nov 2009 01:51 GMT
>>>>>> Well then it's time for the users of the automobile pay for the full
>>>>>> price if providing it.
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>newsgroup, most of them live in the concrete jungle, and they are
>victims of one-dimensional railroad-like thinking patterns ...

From my readings of US FHWA web pages, things from the Texas
Transportation think-tank, and other places I don't think ANYONE
really knows the state of transportation funding.  There are various
taxes on all modes.  There are various examples of subsidy for all
modes and I know that I got very confused when trying to figure out
how governments in New Jersey fund roads.  The cross subsidies and
shifting of responsibility among levels of government are mind
boggling.  Just look at the discussions here on whether all roads
should be funded out of the federal and state pool of road related
taxes.  There are major disagreements as to whether property taxes
should be used to fund local streets and roads.  If a street or road
isn't on the state/federal highway system what should the source of
funds be to build and maintain that road?  As a railfan and
transportation policy student I am confused by the data.  Things are
murky at best and the arguments on all sides don't address the
incoherent land use and funding policies that we have.  

My personal belief is that all streets and roads should be paid for by
fuel excise taxes, vehicle and operator taxes and tolls.  On the other
hand the value of the property I live on is enhanced by the fact it is
on a paved road so what part of the cost of maintaining access should
be on the property tax?  I don't believe in diversion such as is done
in New Jersey and on the federal level of the aforementioned funds to
transit or long distance bus/rail.  On the other hand, the Government
of Ontario made the investment in GO Transit Lakeshore lines to avoid
building two lanes (I'm not certain if that is a total figure or two
lanes each direction) on the Gardiner expressway and having to provide
the parking in downtown Toronto.  Given that GO is currently running 6
12 car trains per hour into Union Station in the peak two hours from
both the east and the west with a total capacity of 9600 people per
hour or more, they have met that goal.  If the net system cost per
year is less than the net cost of providing the lanes (building, snow
plowing and other maintenance) after highway associated revenues, then
someone can make a case for that being a good diversion of highway
funds.  If anyone has those figures, I would be extremely interested.

Two things that color our views of both transit and highway costs are
the escalation of both due to inflation (especially construction
inflation) and due to environmental and mitigation requirements (think
sound barriers for starters).  Then there is gold-plating by
consultants for all modes.
jim - 11 Nov 2009 13:35 GMT
> Go ahead, put all the taxes collected directly on driving and all the
> taxes collected on commerce directly from driving (sales taxes on auto
> parts, auto service, tires, gasoline, etc) to the roads and only the
> roads. The loser will be everything else tax money is spent on.

That is a false statement and you only believe it because you spend
your entire life reading propaganda from the oil companies. But even if
it were true, it still would be incredibly stupid system for everyone
who is not in the business of selling oil. What motive is there for the
average citizen to want a system that only works well at maximum
inefficiency?

    The simple fact of the matter is a large portion of government revenue
is coming from borrowing so some of the cost of roads, like many other
things, are being paid for not by us but by future taxpayers. Petroleum
is a resource that is being depleted. Every drop we use today is a drop
that won't be available to future generations.

    Somehow we expect the future to not only pay our bills but to also do
it in an economy without the benefit of cheap petroleum. Plus they will
be saddled with a massive infrastructure that is crumbling. And not only
is the infrastructure massive and crumbling it was also designed with
only one design criteria in mind --- to maximize the consumption of oil.

    What your oil company propaganda has convinced you is a beautiful
system is in fact nothing more than a recipe for eventual disaster. This
will be the big bubble that makes all the other bubbles look like toy
balloons.

-jim

> >> Go ahead and eliminate all other tax money that goes to roads BUT end
> >> all diversion of taxes on motorists to other purposes. Also taxes on the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> >> in a science project from a junk yard. Odd exceptions like that. But we
> >> all know that those sales are entirely because people drive.
Clark F Morris - 12 Nov 2009 01:22 GMT
>>> > Well then it's time for the users of the automobile pay for the full
>>> > price if providing it.
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>parts, auto service, tires, gasoline, etc) to the roads and only the
>roads. The loser will be everything else tax money is spent on.

Here in NOva Scotia, they collect both provincial and federal excise
taxes on motor fuel plus Harmonized Sales Tax (13 percent of which 5
percent is federal and 8 provincial) on the cost of the fuel plus the
excise taxes.  They also collect HST on bus, rail and air tickets. The
HST should and does go into general revenues.  I would agree that the
excise taxes should go toward roads but thing get murky or very murky
there.  In the United States, in general transportation is excluded
from the sales taxes so the United States favors or subsidizes
transportation as opposed to other goods and services.  (In many
states groceries but not restaurant meals are similarly favored.) In
short, I would agree that transportation excise taxes and targeted
taxes like the tire tax to promote recycling of tires should go to the
related transportation purpose and general sales taxes should go into
general revenues.

>>> Go ahead and eliminate all other tax money that goes to roads BUT end
>>> all diversion of taxes on motorists to other purposes. Also taxes on the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>>> in a science project from a junk yard. Odd exceptions like that. But we
>>> all know that those sales are entirely because people drive.
Larry Sheldon - 10 Nov 2009 23:19 GMT
> On Nov 7, 2:59 pm, John David Galt <j...@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> Raising tolls or taxes to pay for needed roads is political suicide.

We need a USENET for roundabouts.

"well then the cars users ought to pay one hundred percent of their own
way" (as if they were not already paying for it now, either directly or
through taxes)."

"well then the train users ought to pay  one hundred percent of their
own way" (as if they were not already paying for it now, either directly
or through taxes)."

"well then the airplane users ought to pay  one hundred percent of their
own way" (as if they were not already paying for it now, either directly
or through taxes)."

"well then the cars users ought to pay one hundred percent of their own
way" (as if they were not already paying for it now, either directly or
through taxes)."

(How come walkers and bicycle riders get off scot-free??

Lets take the next and not do this anymore.

For the short bus folks:  All things are paid for.  The only people who
can pay for stuff are people with money.  The only people that have
money are people who work, or who sell products.  (Taxation and other
forms of theft don't count.)

The only real issue is how much loss there is between the paying and the
getting.

I personally favor short path--if you want it, pay for it.  If nobody
wants to ,pay for it, we don't have it.  Getting it at gun point,
forcing somebody that doesn't want it to pay for it is just wrong.

But we have gone around all that many times.  Let's don't do it, and say
we did.
Signature

Requiescas in pace o email              Two identifying characteristics
                                             of System Administrators:
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio        Infallibility, and the ability to
                                             learn from their mistakes.
Eppure si rinfresca

ICBM Targeting Information:
    http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs
    http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml

Matthew Russotto - 11 Nov 2009 05:26 GMT
>We need a USENET for roundabouts.
>
>"well then the cars users ought to pay one hundred percent of their own
>way" (as if they were not already paying for it now, either directly or
>through taxes)."

They are.

>"well then the train users ought to pay  one hundred percent of their
>own way" (as if they were not already paying for it now, either directly
>or through taxes)."

They are not.  They are heavily subsidized by drivers.

>"well then the airplane users ought to pay  one hundred percent of their
>own way" (as if they were not already paying for it now, either directly
>or through taxes)."

Not sure about this one; it's pretty muddy.  Certainly less subsidized
than transit, though.

>(How come walkers and bicycle riders get off scot-free??

Negligible costs for bicycle riders, and no one objects to paying for
sidewalks with general taxes (though anti-car folks like to put in
mandates for sidewalks by roads and charge the resulting expense to
drivers)
Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

Larry Sheldon - 11 Nov 2009 05:42 GMT
>> We need a USENET for roundabouts.

> They are.

> They are not.  They are heavily subsidized by drivers.

Circulating arguments meet Charlie on the MTA.
John S - 11 Nov 2009 15:14 GMT
>>> We need a USENET for roundabouts.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Circulating arguments meet Charlie on the MTA.

Two new light rail projects are moving forward, one in New Jersey, one
in Philadelphia.  What do they have in common?  They will be funded by
the Delaware River Port Authority.  Where does DRPA get its money?  From
road bridge tolls.  Soak drivers, subsidize trains.  In this case, one
of the trains will roll on top of the Market St Subway.  Why even build
new routes when you can use bridge toll money to build transit systems
right on top of existing ones?

For other examples of such subsidies from drivers, look at the finances
at nearly every transit system in the USA, exhibit A is New York City.

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/business/20091027_DRPA_opts_for_E__Market_Street_
surface_line.html

Bolwerk - 11 Nov 2009 20:19 GMT
>>>> We need a USENET for roundabouts.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> http://www.philly.com/inquirer/business/20091027_DRPA_opts_for_E__Market_Street_
surface_line.html
 

And then look at how state and federal balance of payments almost never
favor those transit-centric areas, at least partly because the
cities/states in question pay more in taxes than they get back in
services.  At least part of the reason for the imbalance is to fund
highways in faraway places.  Soak transit users, subsidize drivers -
just do it differently, and it's all right.  Pointing to a few bridge
tolls and the small minority of the highway trust fund that goes to fund
transit is hardly fair.

BTW, NYC's Subway had a farebox recovery ratio in 2007 that was similar
to the ratio of drivers' tolls and fees that typically cover highway
operations.
Brent - 11 Nov 2009 20:46 GMT
>>>>> We need a USENET for roundabouts.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> services.  At least part of the reason for the imbalance is to fund
> highways in faraway places.

Scammers always go after the cash. Democracy works by getting people to
vote themselves money from the treasury. The political office holders
just work the system.

> Soak transit users, subsidize drivers -
> just do it differently, and it's all right.  Pointing to a few bridge
> tolls and the small minority of the highway trust fund that goes to fund
> transit is hardly fair.

When transit is nearly entirely funded by people who don't use it, it is
quite fair. Roads are funded almost entirely by people who use roads
directly. Then there is all the tax revenue generated by automotive
and trucking businesses.

A fair direct cost scheme would mean a tax savings for drivers. But
nobody is proposing a fair scheme because that would mean less money for
government overall. The idea of these 'tax driving more' things is
either to find the pain threshold for driving to maximize revenue or to
increase power with putitive discouraging taxation on driving. That's
all that those in and near government seek. The power to run our lives
and to take our our wealth.
Bolwerk - 11 Nov 2009 21:12 GMT
>> Pointing to a few bridge
>> tolls and the small minority of the highway trust fund that goes to fund
>> transit is hardly fair.
>
> When transit is nearly entirely funded by people who don't use it, it is
> quite fair.

Yes, in that hypothetical situation, I suppose that would be so.
Brent - 11 Nov 2009 21:35 GMT
>>> Pointing to a few bridge
>>> tolls and the small minority of the highway trust fund that goes to fund
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Yes, in that hypothetical situation, I suppose that would be so.

Nice editing. But it is a fair argument to point out that transit is
mostly funded by people who don't use it.
Larry Sheldon - 11 Nov 2009 21:52 GMT
> Nice editing. But it is a fair argument to point out that transit is
> mostly funded by people who don't use it.

This is a just-grabbed-out-of-my......hat opinion, but I would very
surprised if most things that "tax-supported" are in fact supported by
tax-payers who derive either no benefit or little benefit compared to
amounts paid, even if you include indirect or secondary benefits.

Schools

Hospitals

roads, streets and accessories on which the particular payer never travels

Police, fire and EM services

just to name four that come quickly to mind.
Signature

Requiescas in pace o email              Two identifying characteristics
                                             of System Administrators:
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio        Infallibility, and the ability to
                                             learn from their mistakes.
Eppure si rinfresca

ICBM Targeting Information:
    http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs
    http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml

Larry Sheldon - 11 Nov 2009 21:55 GMT
>> Nice editing. But it is a fair argument to point out that transit is
>> mostly funded by people who don't use it.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> just to name four that come quickly to mind.

Please note that I don't object in principle to supporting that group
with tax-money, although I think it maybe possible to get better
services if private companies could compete.

Signature

Requiescas in pace o email              Two identifying characteristics
                                             of System Administrators:
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio        Infallibility, and the ability to
                                             learn from their mistakes.
Eppure si rinfresca

ICBM Targeting Information:
    http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs
    http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml

Brent - 11 Nov 2009 22:00 GMT
>> Nice editing. But it is a fair argument to point out that transit is
>> mostly funded by people who don't use it.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> tax-payers who derive either no benefit or little benefit compared to
> amounts paid, even if you include indirect or secondary benefits.

That's the point of using government. To get what you want while having
someone else pay for it. If benefit matched what was paid government
would not be needed, it could all be private.
Larry Sheldon - 11 Nov 2009 22:16 GMT
>>> Nice editing. But it is a fair argument to point out that transit is
>>> mostly funded by people who don't use it.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> someone else pay for it. If benefit matched what was paid government
> would not be needed, it could all be private.

You are going to hurt yourself twisting like that.

Signature

Requiescas in pace o email              Two identifying characteristics
                                             of System Administrators:
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio        Infallibility, and the ability to
                                             learn from their mistakes.
Eppure si rinfresca

ICBM Targeting Information:
    http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs
    http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml

Brent - 11 Nov 2009 22:51 GMT
>>>> Nice editing. But it is a fair argument to point out that transit is
>>>> mostly funded by people who don't use it.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> You are going to hurt yourself twisting like that.

Huh?  twisted what?  I was agreeing with you.  Drivers of private autos
subsidize trucking, but that's still better than nothing which is what
many people get from the taxes they pay for transit.
jim - 12 Nov 2009 01:14 GMT
> >>>> Nice editing. But it is a fair argument to point out that transit is
> >>>> mostly funded by people who don't use it.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> subsidize trucking, but that's still better than nothing which is what
> many people get from the taxes they pay for transit.

    First of all there is no equity or fairness that exists amongst auto
drivers themselves. A driver that has a gas guzzling car and who drives
mostly on local roads is paying a lot more money for his highway use
compared to someone with a fuel efficient car that spends most of his
time on the federal highway system. The guy who drives on local roads is
not getting much benefit in return from road use taxes.

    A motorist capable of independent thought might look at the
cost/benefit of mass transit in a different light. The existence of mass
transit means some number of people are not on the highway contributing
to congestion that otherwise would be. By using other means of
transportation they are also not contributing to  wear and tear on the
highways. In a sense mass transit makes highways more cost effective.
Many people who use mass transit do so during peak highway usage and use
the highways during off peak usage.

      Subsidy to truckers contributes to more congestion on the highways
more wear and tear on the highways and gives nothing in return unless
you like diesel exhaust. You have to wonder where the notion comes from
that it is more in a motorists best interest to subsidize trucking than
it is to subsidize mass transit.
    You also have to wonder where the idea comes from that that government
entities are diverting money to mass transit to increase government
revenues. If the only thing the government was interested in was
maximizing revenues then killing off mass transit would be the way to
go. Forcing all the people who use mass transit to switch to automobile
travel would generate more taxes.
   

-jim
gpsman - 12 Nov 2009 04:50 GMT
>         Subsidy to truckers contributes to more congestion on the highways
> more wear and tear on the highways and gives nothing in return unless
> you like diesel exhaust.

Right about here it appears you had a stroke.  Might wanna get that
checked out.

> You have to wonder where the notion comes from
> that it is more in a motorists best interest to subsidize trucking than
> it is to subsidize mass transit.

If they want fuel for motoring conveniently located it seems it might
be good policy.  Jobs tend to pay more, I think, at companies where
materials arrive and manufactured goods leave.

I've never heard anyone bitch about too much beer on the shelves.
Wait, no, I have heard that one.

gpsman regrets the error.
-----

- gpsman
jim - 12 Nov 2009 16:03 GMT
> >         Subsidy to truckers contributes to more congestion on the highways
> > more wear and tear on the highways and gives nothing in return unless
> > you like diesel exhaust.
>
> Right about here it appears you had a stroke.  Might wanna get that
> checked out.

Are you disputing the statement or just attempting to ignore it?

    First of all I wasn't responding to whether Brent or anybody was
actually subsidizing truckers or not. It is his claim not mine that
truckers are contributing more to the wear and tear and operating cost
of roads than they pay for (that is presumably what he means by
subsidizing).  

    If his claim is true, then how can it be reasonable to argue this
works to the motorist benefit? Or put another way if there is a subsidy
why would  motorists be expected to pay it and not everyone else? Trucks
compete with motorists for use of the road. Anyone who claims otherwise
isn't thinking straight. If a subsidy is to be paid what would the logic
be in putting it on motorists and excluding everyone else?
    Contrary to what Brent believes all the money collected for road use
taxes is spent on roads. He refuses to look at the simple fact that the
total sum of money spent on roads exceeds the total collected in vehicle
and fuel taxes/fees by users of the roads. Trucks pay considerably more
per vehicle than cars but they also cause more of the wear and tear.
Like everything else in government today some of the current
expenditures on roads is coming from borrowing from the future. That to
me looks like both car drivers and truckers are getting a subsidy.
   

> > You have to wonder where the notion comes from
> > that it is more in a motorists best interest to subsidize trucking than
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> be good policy.  Jobs tend to pay more, I think, at companies where
> materials arrive and manufactured goods leave.

Your changing the question. Should trucking be subsidized is a different
question than is  subsidizing trucks come from the pockets of car
drivers. And whether there is a subsidy at all and how much,  is yet
another question.

Fuel travels far more efficiently in pipelines and goods can arrive and
leave factories by rail.... The issue of subsidization or not is an
equilibrium problem. If you increase the road use taxes on trucks then
they pay more for the cost of roads and at the same time fewer trucks
will use the roads (as costs go up some goods will find other ways to
get to their destinations and some will be replaced by goods that don't
need to travel so far and some will be deemed not worth transporting at
all). If you decrease the taxes paid by trucks then their share of the
cost goes down and more trucks end up on the road.
    At some level of taxation (equilibrium) truckers pay into the system as
much as they cost the system. The same can be said for cars. So it is
reasonable to assume that it is possible for a subsidy to be there
without actually knowing.  It is pretty obvious that today the current
level of tax/fees is not covering the cost of maintaining operating
roads (notwithstanding Brent's opinion). So although the system claims
to be unsubsidized that is not the case.  
    Fairness has always been a cosmetic issue - it has to appear fair as
long as no one looks too close. The federal highway tax system has
always been designed mostly towards maximizing growth and self
perpetuation. That comes first fairness is secondary. Taxes are designed
to meet the needs of growth without stymieing growth (another
equilibrium).  More highways means more vehicles means more revenue and
more highways. But there are 2 problems that suggest eventually it will
all collapse. like every Ponzi scheme eventually you reach a limit to
growth and the whole thing is designed to only work with cheap oil.

-jim

> I've never heard anyone bitch about too much beer on the shelves.
> Wait, no, I have heard that one.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> - gpsman
Stephen Sprunk - 12 Nov 2009 18:13 GMT
> Contrary to what Brent believes all the money collected for road use
> taxes is spent on roads.

No, 15% of federal fuel excise taxes is diverted to pay for transit, and
many states also divert part of their fuel excise taxes to other uses
(e.g. education).  OTOH, plenty of money collected via _other_ taxes is
spent on roads; it's a gigantic shell game that is virtually
impenetrable to the average citizen.

> He refuses to look at the simple fact that the total sum of money spent
> on roads exceeds the total collected in vehicle and fuel taxes/fees by
> users of the roads.

This is undeniably true; even the FHWA's own statistics demonstrate this.

The second problem is that a large fraction of roads are _not_ supported
by fuel excise taxes, the so-called "user fees".  The entire idea behind
the Highway Trust Fund and fuel excise taxes is that the government
would tax _all_ driving to provide a _few_ highways.  Less than 5% of
the mileage on my car is on a HTF-supported road, but I'm paying that
tax on 100% of the miles I drive--in addition to the property taxes or
tolls that I'm paying to fund the other 95% of my use.

> Trucks pay considerably more per vehicle than cars but they also cause
> more of the wear and tear.

They pay more per vehicle because their fuel efficiency is lower (which
is natural, since they're hauling cargo) and they drive a lot more miles
per year.  Still, they pay the same amount of tax per gallon of fuel,
whereas the estimate road wear is _ten thousand times_ that of a
passenger car.  Road wear is proportional to the _cube_ of the vehicle's
weight.

> Like everything else in government today some of the current
> expenditures on roads is coming from borrowing from the future. That to
> me looks like both car drivers and truckers are getting a subsidy.

"Borrowing from the future" is not a subsidy per se if it will be paid
off by the people that benefit from it.

The main problem with debt comes when you take longer to pay for
something than the useful lifetime of what you used it to buy.
Borrowing additional money to finance interest charges, like the US
Government does nearly every year, is catastrophic.

Aside from toll roads, though, what jurisdiction actually uses debt to
fund roads?  AFAIK, all non-toll roads in the US are paid for with
current or past tax revenues.  This is actually one of the _few_ things
the government doesn't borrow much money for--and one of the few where
it _should_, since roads are a long-lived asset that will generate new
revenue over its lifetime that will easily pay off the debt.

IMHO, the correct solution is to get rid of all fuel excise taxes; fund
all limited-access highways with toll-backed debt, and fund surface
roads with property taxes.  Unfortunately, that's far too logical for
our politicians.

S

Signature

Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Brent - 12 Nov 2009 18:46 GMT
>> Contrary to what Brent believes all the money collected for road use
>> taxes is spent on roads.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> spent on roads; it's a gigantic shell game that is virtually
> impenetrable to the average citizen.

Don't forget the diversions to bike trails, police check points, and
much more.

>> He refuses to look at the simple fact that the total sum of money spent
>> on roads exceeds the total collected in vehicle and fuel taxes/fees by
>> users of the roads.

> This is undeniably true; even the FHWA's own statistics demonstrate this.

No, it's not. FHWA is government. It has an agenda, more money, more
control. It wants to show that so it does. Yank all the taxes collected
on anything to do with driving or trucking that go into the general
fund. Not just the diversions, the taxes you pay on tires, the sales
tax on a car, all of it and put it to roads only.  Watch the elected
office holders scream. City governments want car dealerships in their
towns for the tax revenue.

Also, even with the indirect taxes those are paid mostly by people who
drive. So drivers pay it ANYWAY. That's the point that I made that my
new personal troll is looking to ignore. Non-drivers are such a tiny
fraction of taxpayers that eliminating their contribution to roads is
like taking a cup of grain out of a silo.
Clark F Morris - 12 Nov 2009 21:57 GMT
>>> Contrary to what Brent believes all the money collected for road use
>>> taxes is spent on roads.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>office holders scream. City governments want car dealerships in their
>towns for the tax revenue.

Why should a general sales tax be applied just to roads.  In the
Canadian context I am familiar with, the fuel excise taxes should go
to roads but don't necessarily so there you would have a legitimate
gripe.  The HST (or GST plus PST) which is also collected on bus, rail
and air tickets goes to the general coffers.  Should that tax when
collected on clothing go to helping clothing manufacturers.  Actually
I question the degree to which we subsidize transportation and the
distortions that subsidy causes.  If we didn't subsidize harbors,
would there be as much production shifted out of Europe, the United
States and Canada to other countries?

>Also, even with the indirect taxes those are paid mostly by people who
>drive. So drivers pay it ANYWAY. That's the point that I made that my
>new personal troll is looking to ignore. Non-drivers are such a tiny
>fraction of taxpayers that eliminating their contribution to roads is
>like taking a cup of grain out of a silo.
Brent - 12 Nov 2009 22:59 GMT
>>>> Contrary to what Brent believes all the money collected for road use
>>>> taxes is spent on roads.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>>office holders scream. City governments want car dealerships in their
>>towns for the tax revenue.

> Why should a general sales tax be applied just to roads.

I was talking about taxes collected in relationship to autos.

> In the
> Canadian context I am familiar with, the fuel excise taxes should go
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> would there be as much production shifted out of Europe, the United
> States and Canada to other countries?

first I already gave an explaination on how sales tax often is a
composite of taxes. Including a transit tax in NE IL.

If drivers were really being subsidized by general taxes on non-drivers
then the 'drivers don't pay their way' crowd should take me up on that
division. The general fund would be better off by excising the driving
related costs and revenue. That is if drivers are being subsidized. But,
we know they aren't. It's just a game to try and extract more from
drivers because that's where the money is.

What I am saying is that general taxes collected on automotive
transactions are such a huge part of the revenue government collects
that if people want to be nit-picky about 'drivers' getting a 'subsidy',
you'll find tax revenues vanishing all over the place if people stopped
driving. Just consider that when moaning about 'drivers not paying
their share'. The fact is they do. If taxes were rearranged to make all
the taxes for roads directly on driving the cost to drivers wouldn't
increase.

Look at what happened to detroit when it lost so much in tax revenue it
gathered on automotive businesses. It's a lot of money. The complainers
should really consider that before complaining that too much from the
general taxes goes to roads.
Stephen Sprunk - 12 Nov 2009 23:36 GMT
>>>>> He refuses to look at the simple fact that the total sum of money spent
>>>>> on roads exceeds the total collected in vehicle and fuel taxes/fees by
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> I was talking about taxes collected in relationship to autos.

Why should general sales taxes on autos or auto supplies (such as fuel)
be applied only to autos rather than put into the general fund?

Fuel excise taxes _in addition to_ the general sales tax are different.
However, in most states the fuel excise tax is _substituted_ for the
general sales tax, which is a subsidy from the general fund to autos.

>> In the Canadian context I am familiar with, the fuel excise taxes should
>> go to roads but don't necessarily so there you would have a legitimate
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> first I already gave an explaination on how sales tax often is a
> composite of taxes. Including a transit tax in NE IL.

Very true; I disagree with a transit-specific sales tax.  The idea makes
little sense.  Unfortunately, it seems to be a fairly common mechanism.

> If drivers were really being subsidized by general taxes on non-drivers
> then the 'drivers don't pay their way' crowd should take me up on that
> division.

Fine, I'll take you up on it.  In Texas and many other states, local
roads (i.e. all roads other than state highways and tollways) are funded
over 99% by city or county property or sales taxes.  Aside from a tiny,
tiny amount of CMAQ money, that is pure subsidy.  Tollways are funded
100% with toll revenues, though they're exempt from property and sales
taxes so they're still receiving subsidies from general funds.  Finally,
all the people driving on those subsidized local roads or toll roads are
still paying the federal and state fuel excise taxes, which only fund
free state highways.  That is another subsidy.

Claims that "drivers pay their own way" are therefore blatantly untrue;
people who do not drive are also paying for those roads.  Yes, they get
direct value for non-driving uses and indirect value from the use of
others (e.g. delivery trucks, cabs, etc.), and that is why I don't have
a serious objection to that system; my real objections are to (a) the
false claims (such as yours) about how funding works, and (b) the
subsidy from non-highway drivers to highways.

> If taxes were rearranged to make all the taxes for roads directly on
> driving the cost to drivers wouldn't increase.

It's not so much a matter of who pays as it is of the artificially low
marginal costs of driving.  Right now, most of what we pay to fund roads
is coming out of our pockets regardless of how much we drive, therefore
we want to drive as much as possible to get our money's worth.  If we
had to pay the full cost of each trip separately, demand for roads would
naturally go down (because people either eliminated those trips or
switched to a lower-cost mode), which would reduce the amount we would
need to spend on roads in the first place.  It would also make transit
and intercity rail more price competitive while requiring less (or
perhaps even no) subsidy of their own.

S

Signature

Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 13 Nov 2009 01:32 GMT
Excellent points.

>Tollways are funded
> 100% with toll revenues, though they're exempt from property and sales
> taxes so they're still receiving subsidies from general funds.  

And the interest in tollway bonds is tax exempt, while private
railroad bonds are taxable.

These various taxes were the tipping point between government operated
road facilities and private railroads.  The book "Empire on the
Hudson" describes this in detail; it was the tax exemption, eagerly
sought for by toll authorities, that allowed them to grow.  At the
same time, the tax burden imposed on passenger railroads caused them
to lose moeny.
Brent - 13 Nov 2009 02:45 GMT
>>>>>> He refuses to look at the simple fact that the total sum of money spent
>>>>>> on roads exceeds the total collected in vehicle and fuel taxes/fees by
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Why should general sales taxes on autos or auto supplies (such as fuel)
> be applied only to autos rather than put into the general fund?

Again, without driving there is no collecting of those taxes. It's to
point out the absurdity of 'drivers not paying their way'.  If drivers
are not paying their way then it's a net gain to the general fund to
just get rid of the road costs and the general taxes collected on
driving activities.

> Fuel excise taxes _in addition to_ the general sales tax are different.
>  However, in most states the fuel excise tax is _substituted_ for the
> general sales tax, which is a subsidy from the general fund to autos.

In other words, you know that driving is a net tax GAIN for the general
fund. If drivers were not 'paying their way' it would be best to eject
the revenue AND COSTS from driving from the general tax pool. So by your
protest we can conclude that drivers in their automotive related
spending are paying MORE into the general fund than is being taken out
for roads, police, etc and so forth.

>>> In the Canadian context I am familiar with, the fuel excise taxes should
>>> go to roads but don't necessarily so there you would have a legitimate
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>> would there be as much production shifted out of Europe, the United
>>> States and Canada to other countries?

>> first I already gave an explaination on how sales tax often is a
>> composite of taxes. Including a transit tax in NE IL.

> Very true; I disagree with a transit-specific sales tax.  The idea makes
> little sense.  Unfortunately, it seems to be a fairly common mechanism.

>> If drivers were really being subsidized by general taxes on non-drivers
>> then the 'drivers don't pay their way' crowd should take me up on that
>> division.

> Fine, I'll take you up on it.  In Texas and many other states, local
> roads (i.e. all roads other than state highways and tollways) are funded
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> still paying the federal and state fuel excise taxes, which only fund
> free state highways.  That is another subsidy.

If you believe that the taxes from driving don't cover expenses then you
should have no problem with my proposal.

> Claims that "drivers pay their own way" are therefore blatantly untrue;
> people who do not drive are also paying for those roads.

And they constitute what percentage of the tax paying population? I'll
wager that you can remove their tax contributions entirely and it
wouldn't make any significant change.

>> If taxes were rearranged to make all the taxes for roads directly on
>> driving the cost to drivers wouldn't increase.

> It's not so much a matter of who pays as it is of the artificially low
> marginal costs of driving.

But outside of a few in r.a.d. the 'drivers don't pay their way' folks
have no intention to shift to direct taxes and stop raiding the road
funds. the desire is to use that excuse to punitively tax driving. In
other words it's just an anti-driving agenda looking for an excuse.

> Right now, most of what we pay to fund roads
> is coming out of our pockets regardless of how much we drive, therefore
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> and intercity rail more price competitive while requiring less (or
> perhaps even no) subsidy of their own.

I have no problem with it being usage based. A fuel tax does that. But I
want to see all those other taxes reduced first. I doubt that's going to
happen. We'll just end up paying more taxes. All the old indirect
taxation that went to roads will just go someplace else. We will all be
made poorer.
jim - 12 Nov 2009 18:53 GMT
> > Contrary to what Brent believes all the money collected for road use
> > taxes is spent on roads.
>
> No, 15% of federal fuel excise taxes is diverted to pay for transit,

No it isn't. Something like 13% of the HTF goes to mass transit, but
look at how much is put into trust fund from general revenues - a whole
lot more. If you look at totals the fuel excise and other fees and taxes
for road use do not cover the expenditures on roads.

>and
> many states also divert part of their fuel excise taxes to other uses
> (e.g. education).

    You say that as if it is some sort of moral sin which is an
interesting commentary of your belief system. And second the total
expenditure at all levels of government on roads far exceeds the fuel
excise taxes paid.

> OTOH, plenty of money collected via _other_ taxes is
> spent on roads; it's a gigantic shell game that is virtually
> impenetrable to the average citizen.

It is not as if you have to trace the path of every dollar. All you need
to do is look at the totals. the federal Highway administration is a lot
more transparent than the local expenditures are. At the state and local
level there is less of a tendency to map a particular revenue stream to
a particular expenditure. However, you can still examine the totals.

> > He refuses to look at the simple fact that the total sum of money spent
> > on roads exceeds the total collected in vehicle and fuel taxes/fees by
> > users of the roads.
>
> This is undeniably true; even the FHWA's own statistics demonstrate this.

So why did you in your first sentence claim  money is being diverted?

> The second problem is that a large fraction of roads are _not_ supported
> by fuel excise taxes, the so-called "user fees".  The entire idea behind
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> tax on 100% of the miles I drive--in addition to the property taxes or
> tolls that I'm paying to fund the other 95% of my use.

Yes. You and everybody are not paying enough fuel tax to cover the total
cost of roads. So how can there be any dollars left to be diverted?

> > Trucks pay considerably more per vehicle than cars but they also cause
> > more of the wear and tear.
>
> They pay more per vehicle because their fuel efficiency is lower (which
> is natural, since they're hauling cargo) and they drive a lot more miles
> per year.  Still, they pay the same amount of tax per gallon of fuel,

No they pay more for fuel and there are other road use fees that
truckers pay.

> whereas the estimate road wear is _ten thousand times_ that of a
> passenger car.  Road wear is proportional to the _cube_ of the vehicle's
> weight.

Well that's your opinion. Trucks cause more wear, but ten thousand times
is certainly an exaggeration.

> > Like everything else in government today some of the current
> > expenditures on roads is coming from borrowing from the future. That to
> > me looks like both car drivers and truckers are getting a subsidy.
>
> "Borrowing from the future" is not a subsidy per se if it will be paid
> off by the people that benefit from it.

How are the future taxpayers going to benefit from roads that are being
worn out by today's vehicles? They will end up paying for today's
maintenance costs as well as those in the future. And they will have to
do this in an economy run on more expensive fuel.

> The main problem with debt comes when you take longer to pay for
> something than the useful lifetime of what you used it to buy.
> Borrowing additional money to finance interest charges, like the US
> Government does nearly every year, is catastrophic.

Yes.

> Aside from toll roads, though, what jurisdiction actually uses debt to
> fund roads?  

I'm talking about the federal dollars that are spent on road
maintenance. The general fund is already in the red. Any new dollars
taken from the general fund for road construction are borrowed dollars.
The amount taken from the general fund and put into the HTF started to
grow rapidly about 2 years ago and there is every indication will
continue to grow.

-jim

>AFAIK, all non-toll roads in the US are paid for with
> current or past tax revenues.  This is actually one of the _few_ things
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
> K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
spsffan - 12 Nov 2009 20:10 GMT
All snipped.

This thread is a perfect example of the best definition of USENET I ever
read:

A group of people standing around, viciously beating a greasy spot on
the ground where, once, a long, long time ago, there had been a deal horse.
Stephen Sprunk - 12 Nov 2009 21:33 GMT
>>> Contrary to what Brent believes all the money collected for road use
>>> taxes is spent on roads.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> lot more. If you look at totals the fuel excise and other fees and taxes
> for road use do not cover the expenditures on roads.

I said nothing either way about subsidies _into_ the HTF; I only
mentioned the most egregious subsidy _out of_ the HTF.

Rather than putting general funds into the HTF, then taking money out of
the HTF to pay for transit, we should simply put general funds into
transit.  Presto, one thread in the Gordian Knot removed.

>> and many states also divert part of their fuel excise taxes to other
>> uses (e.g. education).
>
>      You say that as if it is some sort of moral sin which is an
> interesting commentary of your belief system.

A moral sin?  You're reading things into what I said that simply aren't
there.

I do think it's dishonest to claim fuel excise taxes are "user fees that
go into a highway trust fund" and then use that money for other
purposes.  I feel the same way about how some toll bridge authorities do
the same thing.

> And second the total expenditure at all levels of government on roads
> far exceeds the fuel excise taxes paid.

Indeed it does.  The _net_ subsidy to roads is an inflow.

>> OTOH, plenty of money collected via _other_ taxes is
>> spent on roads; it's a gigantic shell game that is virtually
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> level there is less of a tendency to map a particular revenue stream to
> a particular expenditure. However, you can still examine the totals.

Luckily, the FHWA has collected all the figures and done all the math
for us, though it's such a gigantic pain that they don't do it every
year.  2004 figures:

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/ohim/hs04/htm/hf1.htm

21% of total road spending in the US comes from property taxes and other
general funds, 11% from bonds, 6% from "other imposts", and 5% from
"miscellaneous receipts" (including interest).  Only 57% comes from fuel
excise taxes and tolls, which is far lower than Big Oil and their
advocates such as the Reason Foundation will admit to.

>>> He refuses to look at the simple fact that the total sum of money spent
>>> on roads exceeds the total collected in vehicle and fuel taxes/fees by
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> So why did you in your first sentence claim  money is being diverted?

Have you never heard the term "net"?

If you give Bob $5, and he gives you $3, then the _net_ flow of money is
from you to Bob in the amount of $2.  It doesn't mean that Bob never
gave you any money.

>> whereas the estimate road wear is _ten thousand times_ that of a
>> passenger car.  Road wear is proportional to the _cube_ of the vehicle's
>> weight.
>
> Well that's your opinion. Trucks cause more wear, but ten thousand times
> is certainly an exaggeration.

*shrug*  That's what the civil engineers say, and I don't have the
domain knowledge to say that they're wrong.

>>> Like everything else in government today some of the current
>>> expenditures on roads is coming from borrowing from the future. That to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> How are the future taxpayers going to benefit from roads that are being
> worn out by today's vehicles?

A road _should_ have a lifetime of around 30 years; therefore it is
appropriate to fund it with 30-year revenue bonds.  When the road is
"worn out" and no longer benefits people, they will no longer be paying
for it either.

> They will end up paying for today's maintenance costs as well as those
> in the future.

One should never use bond funds to pay for operating expenses (e.g.
maintenance), only capital expenses (e.g. construction, land, equipment).

> And they will have to do this in an economy run on more expensive fuel.

Maybe, maybe not.  My crystal ball gets fuzzy on that more than a few
years out, considering all the drastic changes that _might_ take place
due to future political interference in the energy and automotive
markets being discussed today.

>> Aside from toll roads, though, what jurisdiction actually uses debt to
>> fund roads?  
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> grow rapidly about 2 years ago and there is every indication will
> continue to grow.

Since you said federal, exactly how many dollars were taken from the
_federal_ general fund to pay for highways, net of all the dollars taken
out of the federal HTF for other purposes?

The net subsidy to roads is mostly at the state and local level, where
the governments are required to have balanced budgets.

S

Signature

Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

jim - 13 Nov 2009 01:04 GMT
> >>> Contrary to what Brent believes all the money collected for road use
> >>> taxes is spent on roads.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I said nothing either way about subsidies _into_ the HTF; I only
> mentioned the most egregious subsidy _out of_ the HTF.

No you didn't mention HTF at all you mentioned fuel taxes which are only
part of that fund.

> Rather than putting general funds into the HTF, then taking money out of
> the HTF to pay for transit, we should simply put general funds into
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> A moral sin?  You're reading things into what I said that simply aren't
> there.

Am I

> I do think it's dishonest to claim fuel excise taxes are "user fees that
> go into a highway trust fund" and then use that money for other
> purposes.  I feel the same way about how some toll bridge authorities do
> the same thing.

The trust fund for highways is about as sacred as it gets for using
money to the benefit of a special interest. For comparison look at
another trust fund - 26 years ago the doubled the SS tax to build up the
social security trust fund. But all the extra money collected went into
the general fund and was spent.  

> > And second the total expenditure at all levels of government on roads
> > far exceeds the fuel excise taxes paid.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> excise taxes and tolls, which is far lower than Big Oil and their
> advocates such as the Reason Foundation will admit to.

Well things are different today. Fuel consumption has been dropping for
last 2 years and road construction costs have taken a sharp upturn in
the same period.

> >>> He refuses to look at the simple fact that the total sum of money spent
> >>> on roads exceeds the total collected in vehicle and fuel taxes/fees by
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Have you never heard the term "net"?

> If you give Bob $5, and he gives you $3, then the _net_ flow of money is
> from you to Bob in the amount of $2.  It doesn't mean that Bob never
> gave you any money.

It makes no difference to you if Bob and I are the same entity?

> >> whereas the estimate road wear is _ten thousand times_ that of a
> >> passenger car.  Road wear is proportional to the _cube_ of the vehicle's
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> due to future political interference in the energy and automotive
> markets being discussed today.

How is that going to make fuel cheap?

> >> Aside from toll roads, though, what jurisdiction actually uses debt to
> >> fund roads?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> _federal_ general fund to pay for highways, net of all the dollars taken
> out of the federal HTF for other purposes?

I think it was around 12 billion last year and will be more this year.
That is just what goes through the HTF and doesn't count some 40-60
billion in stimulus money that's going to road construction.

-jim

> The net subsidy to roads is mostly at the state and local level, where
> the governments are required to have balanced budgets.

> S
>
> --
> Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
> CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
> K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Stephen Sprunk - 21 Nov 2009 22:06 GMT
>> Luckily, the FHWA has collected all the figures and done all the math
>> for us, though it's such a gigantic pain that they don't do it every
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> last 2 years and road construction costs have taken a sharp upturn in
> the same period.

If you have similarly detailed data from a more recent year, I'll be
happy to look at it, but for now that's the only comprehensive data on
the record I'm aware of.

Unless you have specific numbers for the increase in construction
expenditures and the decrease in fuel taxes, they're just vague "trends"
that aren't particularly informative.

>> Have you never heard the term "net"?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> It makes no difference to you if Bob and I are the same entity?

It makes no difference if you're discussing two different accounts owned
by the same person.  There is still a difference between the detailed
flow (which is potentially hundreds or even thousands of different
transactions) and the net flow (which is a single amount moving in a
single direction).

S

Signature

Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

jim - 21 Nov 2009 23:25 GMT
> >> Luckily, the FHWA has collected all the figures and done all the math
> >> for us, though it's such a gigantic pain that they don't do it every
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> expenditures and the decrease in fuel taxes, they're just vague "trends"
> that aren't particularly informative.

    You might read a newspaper inform yourself of what is going on in
Washington, Look at the budget. Congress has appropriated an additional
60 billion to shore up the Hiway trust fund in 2008-2009. That is the
first time in 50 years the trust fund has failed to meet the cost of
maintaining the federal hiway system,  4 years ago it was running a
surplus of 20 billion. And the reason the trust fund is broke? Is what I
said:

Fuel consumption has been dropping for last 2 years
and road construction costs have taken a sharp
upturn in the same period.

-jim

> >> Have you never heard the term "net"?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
> K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Clark F Morris - 12 Nov 2009 19:19 GMT
>> Contrary to what Brent believes all the money collected for road use
>> taxes is spent on roads.
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>it _should_, since roads are a long-lived asset that will generate new
>revenue over its lifetime that will easily pay off the debt.

Any jurisdiction that issues Garvee bonds (tax anticipation notes) is
doing this.  I suspect that New Jersey has done this.  The bond issues
being local or at most statewide generally fly under the national
radar.

>IMHO, the correct solution is to get rid of all fuel excise taxes; fund
>all limited-access highways with toll-backed debt, and fund surface
>roads with property taxes.  Unfortunately, that's far too logical for
>our politicians.

Given that most travel is on non-limited access highways and that in
some cases these can be a tolerable alternative to limited access
highways (routes 1, 9 and 22 in New Jersey for example) would this
have the effect of putting some heavy truck traffic on property tax
based roads?  I totally agree that transportation funding is a
confused mess for practically every mode (pipelines may be straight
forward but I won't take bets).
>S
gpsman - 12 Nov 2009 18:36 GMT
> > >         Subsidy to truckers contributes to more congestion on the highways
> > > more wear and tear on the highways and gives nothing in return unless
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Are you disputing the statement or just attempting to ignore it?

It is obviously false.

>         First of all I wasn't responding to whether Brent or anybody was
> actually subsidizing truckers or not. It is his claim not mine that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>          If his claim is true, then how can it be reasonable to argue this
> works to the motorist benefit?

Nobody pays any attention to what Brent might say, other than to heap
abuse upon him.  Half the time he says nothing.  The other half is
meaningless other than as an exhibition of why you wouldn't want to be
innocent and sit before a jury of his peers.

> > > You have to wonder where the notion comes from
> > > that it is more in a motorists best interest to subsidize trucking than
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> drivers. And whether there is a subsidy at all and how much,  is yet
> another question.

I thought the question was relative to motorists interests in
subsidizing trucking rather than mass transit.

> Fuel travels far more efficiently in pipelines and goods can arrive and
> leave factories by rail....

Not in passenger rail cars.

Whether or not they might move "far more efficiently" (by undefined
measure) by pipeline and/or rail is irrelevant.

Practicality trumps efficiency.  It is simply not practical to ship
many if not most goods by rail, plane or pipeline.
-----

- gpsman
jim - 12 Nov 2009 20:01 GMT
> > > >         Subsidy to truckers contributes to more congestion on the highways
> > > > more wear and tear on the highways and gives nothing in return unless
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> It is obviously false.

But it isn't false. the more you subsidize trucking the more trucks on
the road you will get. Or put it the opposite way, if you increase fuel
and other fees on trucks it will tend to reduce the number of trucks on
the road.

> >         First of all I wasn't responding to whether Brent or anybody was
> > actually subsidizing truckers or not. It is his claim not mine that
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> I thought the question was relative to motorists interests in
> subsidizing trucking rather than mass transit.

Subsidizing trucking doesn't benefit a motorists any more than it
benefits someone who never drives. Subsidizing trucking would tend to
put more trucks on the road. It should be obvious, that if you collect
more taxes from trucks there is less need for tax collected from car
drivers. And then there is the little thing of trucks have an advantage
when they collide with motorists.  So very clearly the thinking motorist
would find his interests to be at odds with trucking.
    OTOH, Subsidizing mass transit can reduce traffic congestion. It may
even be more cost effective to put some money into mass transit than put
it all into expanding roads. The thinking motorist might find its a good
idea to support some level of mass transit. It is very little different
than a motorist supporting another road built somewhere else that he
doesn't use, if the result is it takes some of the traffic off the road
that he uses.

> > Fuel travels far more efficiently in pipelines and goods can arrive and
> > leave factories by rail....
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Practicality trumps efficiency.  It is simply not practical to ship
> many if not most goods by rail, plane or pipeline.

Yeah so? We know it is practical to ship some things not in a truck. And
when trucking is more costly there are more things that fall into that
category.
-jim

>  -----
>
> - gpsman
gpsman - 12 Nov 2009 23:19 GMT
> > > > >         Subsidy to truckers contributes to more congestion on the highways
> > > > > more wear and tear on the highways and gives nothing in return unless
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> and other fees on trucks it will tend to reduce the number of trucks on
> the road.

The number of trucks on roads is directly proportional to the demand
for trucks on roads.

Fee increases are passed on to the consumer.

> Subsidizing trucking doesn't benefit a motorists any more than it
> benefits someone who never drives.

Except for how convenient it is to find fuel...?

The US economy rides on trucking and cheap freight rates.

"Trucks carry almost all the manufactured and retail goods in the
country — from refrigerators to lumber, detergents to toys. Many
economists gauge how fast assembly lines are running, and how much
consumers are buying, by the volume of goods hauled by trucks."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30728469/

>Subsidizing trucking would tend to
> put more trucks on the road. It should be obvious, that if you collect
> more taxes from trucks there is less need for tax collected from car
> drivers.

Taxes, higher prices, only the route differs.

> And then there is the little thing of trucks have an advantage
> when they collide with motorists.  So very clearly the thinking motorist
> would find his interests to be at odds with trucking.

Unless he likes to eat and prefers to not "farm", or live near
farms... where they move farmed goods from the fields in... trucks.

>         OTOH, Subsidizing mass transit can reduce traffic congestion

I guess it could, but I'm not familiar with anyone I think would
choose mass transit over driving unless it was among their last
options.

> It may
> even be more cost effective to put some money into mass transit than put
> it all into expanding roads.

It may, I don't care.

Whether mass transit might catch back on, I think, is more or less
proportional to the ability of the transportees to afford to drive
instead of sharing small enclosed spaces with strangers.

It seems like a sure bet we need more road, and will need more road.

> The thinking motorist might find its a good
> idea to support some level of mass transit.

That mass transit is going to require infrastructure.  That seems to
indicate real estate that is not available or ridiculously expensive
where it is most needed, or take at least a lane of street.

The local plan is completely preposterous in this economic time with
the city budget blanketed in red.
http://www.cincystreetcar.com/

> It is very little different
> than a motorist supporting another road built somewhere else that he
> doesn't use, if the result is it takes some of the traffic off the road
> that he uses.

Except for the probabilities.

> > > Fuel travels far more efficiently in pipelines and goods can arrive and
> > > leave factories by rail....
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> when trucking is more costly there are more things that fall into that
> category.

It's going to have to become pretty costly before they start laying
rails to every retail outlet.

Trucks will get you through times of no rail or air or bus transport
better than they combined will get you through times of no trucks.

We'll just load you all up in military-style cattle cars, take you
wherever you need to go.
-----

- gpsman
jim - 13 Nov 2009 01:44 GMT
> > > > > >         Subsidy to truckers contributes to more congestion on the highways
> > > > > > more wear and tear on the highways and gives nothing in return unless
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Fee increases are passed on to the consumer.

That's not very meaningful.  If you double the taxes on trucks the
number of trucks on the road will decrease because less will be shipped
by truck. Sure that cost will be added to the products but not in full.
Some of the added tax would be covered by eliminating inefficiency that
aren't going to be eliminated until the cost goes up.

> > Subsidizing trucking doesn't benefit a motorists any more than it
> > benefits someone who never drives.
>
> Except for how convenient it is to find fuel...?

Yes transporting fuel would cost a little more. But very little fuel is
trucked very far. Other commodities  would also tend to follow that same
model and be  trucked less far.

> The US economy rides on trucking and cheap freight rates.

Certainly, but that doesn't mean the citizens are  better off in the
long run. Subsidizing transportation creates distorted economies.  Cheap
transportation of goods is significant factor in many jobs moving
overseas.  And  inefficiencies it creates  mean US is not well prepared
for the future.

> "Trucks carry almost all the manufactured and retail goods in the
> country — from refrigerators to lumber, detergents to toys. Many
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Unless he likes to eat and prefers to not "farm", or live near
> farms... where they move farmed goods from the fields in... trucks.

    I live in a rural county and in the 20's and 30's there used to be 360
miles of rail lines in this county. The milk trains  ran every day that
carried all the milk the 1000's of farms produced to the dairy plants in
the county seat. And all the other farm goods were shipped by rail too.
All those rail lines are now gone.
    But no one is suggesting that a concerted political effort be made to
eliminate the trucking industry like the effort that was made to get rid
of the rail lines.

> >         OTOH, Subsidizing mass transit can reduce traffic congestion
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> proportional to the ability of the transportees to afford to drive
> instead of sharing small enclosed spaces with strangers.

Some people don't like sitting in small enclosed spaces alone. And more
than likely some day you will be old and unable to drive a car.

> It seems like a sure bet we need more road, and will need more road.

Right now it seems like a good bet there will be problems finding the
money to keep up  the roads that already exist.

-jim

> > The thinking motorist might find its a good
> > idea to support some level of mass transit.
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> - gpsman
gpsman - 13 Nov 2009 06:59 GMT
> > The number of trucks on roads is directly proportional to the demand
> > for trucks on roads.
>
> > Fee increases are passed on to the consumer.
>
> That's not very meaningful.

It means they are there so serve demand for their services, and not
sightseeing.

> If you double the taxes on trucks the
> number of trucks on the road will decrease because less will be shipped
> by truck.

You have a backup plan, of course, to replace that which exists.

> Sure that cost will be added to the products but not in full.

Who is going to eat it?

> Some of the added tax would be covered by eliminating inefficiency that
> aren't going to be eliminated until the cost goes up.

Where's that money coming from?

> > > Subsidizing trucking doesn't benefit a motorists any more than it
> > > benefits someone who never drives.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> trucked very far. Other commodities  would also tend to follow that same
> model and be  trucked less far.

By what method?  You're going to reverse the tendencies of
corporations to centralize manufacturing and distribution in the
manner that suits them best... most practically relative to
profitability.

Sounds like a hard sell.

> > The US economy rides on trucking and cheap freight rates.

> Certainly, but that doesn't mean the citizens are  better off in the
> long run.

That ambiguity is no evidence that they aren't.

> Subsidizing transportation creates distorted economies.

Then I guess we shouldn't subsidize mass transit.

>  Cheap
> transportation of goods is significant factor in many jobs moving
> overseas.

Why, because it's cheaper to ship sh.t from halfway around the world,
or because you think that means trucks don't use roads to move it to
and from manufacturers to the docks to distributors to retail?

> And  inefficiencies it creates  mean US is not well prepared
> for the future.

You seem to be working up quite a head of blather.

I'm not really interested in your vague assertions.  If you have any
facts, trot them out.

>          I live in a rural county and in the 20's and 30's there used to be 360
> miles of rail lines in this county. The milk trains  ran every day that
> carried all the milk the 1000's of farms produced to the dairy plants in
> the county seat. And all the other farm goods were shipped by rail too.
> All those rail lines are now gone.

I love that story.

I wonder if trucking replaced the trains or the farms are gone.

>         But no one is suggesting that a concerted political effort be made to
> eliminate the trucking industry like the effort that was made to get rid
> of the rail lines.

That effort seems to have fallen a tad short.

(I'm reminded of Brent's assertion that licensing attorneys and
doctors, etc., served no purpose other than to limit competition.  I
guess he doesn't have access to any Yellow Pages.)

You're saying the decline of RRs was not due to the Depression, rise
of mass transit, the automobile and trucking, but instead was the
victim of a concentrated conspiracy?

> > It seems like a sure bet we need more road, and will need more road.
>
> Right now it seems like a good bet there will be problems finding the
> money to keep up  the roads that already exist.

That's where I have my money.
-----

- gpsman
jim - 13 Nov 2009 15:12 GMT
> > > The number of trucks on roads is directly proportional to the demand
> > > for trucks on roads.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Who is going to eat it?

Somebody, but exactly the same people who are eating it now.
If the savings are due to increased efficiency then no one will eat it.
But I agree much of the cost would be added to the cost of products shipped. And
it is obvious that would be more to the benefit of someone buying or selling a
product that doesn't need to be shipped far.

I never said trucks shouldn't be subsidized. I have been pointing out the
obvious effects of increased or decreased truck road use tax on economic
activity and on transportation, without getting into what level of tax
constitutes a subsidy. It was an analysis of the effects of increasing or
decreasing the level of taxation.  Among other things,  there are going to be
less trucks on the road if those taxes would increase.

    Most taxed enterprises (like my employment tax) are not directly used to
finance infrastructure for that enterprise. And yes maybe you may argue that all
the taxes I pay are for my benefit, but they don't directly benefit or enable my
employment.

> > Some of the added tax would be covered by eliminating inefficiency that
> > aren't going to be eliminated until the cost goes up.
>
> Where's that money coming from?

The important issue is not really whether trucks are being subsidized, but
whether the energy used by trucks or  cars or anything else is being subsidized.
If you use the tax structure to keep the cost of energy as low as possible then
you have removed some incentive to use it efficiently.  

> > > > Subsidizing trucking doesn't benefit a motorists any more than it
> > > > benefits someone who never drives.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> manner that suits them best... most practically relative to
> profitability.

Yup. How does the fact that Walmart can move into a small town put all the local
hardware, tire, clothing etc. stores out of business  really help  that small
town? They definitely aren't better off when the competition is all gone and the
town becomes a captive market. This is the consequences of subsidizing
transportation in its current form. It isn't that walmart operates a more
efficient store. it is the distribution infrastructure that tips the playing
field in walmart's favor. And that isn't a natural structure it is artificially
created by tax law.
   

> Sounds like a hard sell.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> That ambiguity is no evidence that they aren't.

Your ambiguity is no evidence that they are.

> > Subsidizing transportation creates distorted economies.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> or because you think that means trucks don't use roads to move it to
> and from manufacturers to the docks to distributors to retail?

The subsidy to energy goes a lot deeper than just subsidizing trucking. And it
may well be  cheaper to ship sh.t half way around the world, but it usually
isn't more energy efficient.

> > And  inefficiencies it creates  mean US is not well prepared
> > for the future.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> I wonder if trucking replaced the trains or the farms are gone.

A little of both and some of neither. The Amish now own a significant portion of
the farms that remain.
The point was to illustrate the fallacy in  your claim that there is zero
possibility of other modes.

> >         But no one is suggesting that a concerted political effort be made to
> > eliminate the trucking industry like the effort that was made to get rid
> > of the rail lines.
>
> That effort seems to have fallen a tad short.

Not in this county. All the lines are gone.

> (I'm reminded of Brent's assertion that licensing attorneys and
> doctors, etc., served no purpose other than to limit competition.  I
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> of mass transit, the automobile and trucking, but instead was the
> victim of a concentrated conspiracy?

More the other way around. With the right political will, there could have been
a concentrated effort to keep and maintain the infrastructure similar to the
concentrated effort that was made to promote rubber tired transportation.  The
railroads died off mostly because the owners chose not to sink capital back into
the railroads. It was more profitable to put it elsewhere - like wherever there
tax accountants directed them to put it.

-jim

> > > It seems like a sure bet we need more road, and will need more road.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> - gpsman
Brent - 13 Nov 2009 15:53 GMT
> Yup. How does the fact that Walmart can move into a small town put all the local
> hardware, tire, clothing etc. stores out of business  really help  that small
> town? They definitely aren't better off when the competition is all gone and the
> town becomes a captive market.

Do you have proof that walmart raises prices to or above what the shops
that went out of business charged? Otherwise those people benefit in the
form of lower prices for the things they wish to buy.

It's also like the high priced ma and pa stores that complain about the
internet exposing their customers to competition. This is true even when
that competition is just another ma and pa some place else that is more
competitive.

> This is the consequences of subsidizing
> transportation in its current form. It isn't that walmart operates a more
> efficient store. it is the distribution infrastructure that tips the playing
> field in walmart's favor. And that isn't a natural structure it is artificially
> created by tax law.

Even if trucking were not subsidized by the ordinary passenger car
driver, walmart's distribution and business model would win. Remember,
that stuff trucked to ma and pa got the same per mile advantage.

It's silly to make this argument on the retail level. It works much
better on the manufacturing level. On the manufacturing level tax
dollars are used to the benefit of imported goods. Everything from
transportation taxes to managed trade to military operations reduces
the apparent costs of imported goods. This gets into an entirely
different ball of wax on the de-industrialization of the USA, but I
doubt this system to encourage imported goods on so many levels was just
an accident.

It's not so much imported goods at walmart vs. domestic at ma and pa,
but the same thing at both with it costing significantly more at ma and
pa. Or even significantly more at another chain retailer.

>> (I'm reminded of Brent's assertion that licensing attorneys and
>> doctors, etc., served no purpose other than to limit competition.  I
>> guess he doesn't have access to any Yellow Pages.)

Guess gpstroll doesn't know the difference between 'limit' and 'none'.
Guess gpstroll has never bothered to realize that the bigest supporters
of licensing are those who are already in a particular business and
would easily be licensed. Also, I suppose gpstroll has never heard of
licenses that are limited in number, such as the license to operate a
taxi in many cities. Lastly I doubt he's ever learned of the cartel like
practices enforced through licensing to prevent undercutting the agreed
upon prices. (again, taxi cabs are a prime example of prices controlled
through licensing)

Some reading material: http://www.pioneerinstitute.org/pdf/pdialg_32.pdf
jim - 13 Nov 2009 17:05 GMT
> > Yup. How does the fact that Walmart can move into a small town put all the local
> > hardware, tire, clothing etc. stores out of business  really help  that small
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> that went out of business charged? Otherwise those people benefit in the
> form of lower prices for the things they wish to buy.

When walmart is all that is left there is nothing stopping the prices
from going up.

There is no benefit to the citizens if the lower prices are a result of
transportation subsidy that came out of their pockets. The
transformation that occurred took place long before Walmart arrived so
walmart is not really directly to blame. It is just the natural
consequence.

    Ultimately a local economy needs to decide for itself regarding its own
self worth. there have been places where people just refused to shop at
walmart and eventually walmart just packed up and left. Some people are
able to see that the current economic paradigm is extremely near
sighted. Cheap energy is a bubble it's a bubble that will burst. when
government does everything it can to build an economy around cheap
energy it will make it pop more explosively.

   

> It's also like the high priced ma and pa stores that complain about the
> internet exposing their customers to competition. This is true even when
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> driver, walmart's distribution and business model would win. Remember,
> that stuff trucked to ma and pa got the same per mile advantage.

Not really. But the local economies had already been transformed before
Walmart arrived. The cost that enabled walmart to win had already mostly
been paid.

    Rural people have had a disproportionate effected by the transportation
policies of the last half century. Whether you regard that as a good or
bad thing is a matter of taste.

> It's silly to make this argument on the retail level. It works much
> better on the manufacturing level. On the manufacturing level tax
> dollars are used to the benefit of imported goods.

Well walmart is benefiting more from that than any local store could.

> Everything from
> transportation taxes to managed trade to military operations reduces
> the apparent costs of imported goods. This gets into an entirely
> different ball of wax on the de-industrialization of the USA, but I
> doubt this system to encourage imported goods on so many levels was just
> an accident.

Yes. But de-industrialization has not yet occurred. The US is still the
largest manufacturer.

> It's not so much imported goods at walmart vs. domestic at ma and pa,
> but the same thing at both with it costing significantly more at ma and
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> upon prices. (again, taxi cabs are a prime example of prices controlled
> through licensing)

May be true,  but the number of people willing to live without licensing
are small and not likely to get any bigger so your hope for eliminating
that is a lost cause. Licensing cabs and licensing doctors works on a
different basis. There is no limit on the number of doctors or lawyers.
If there was a general interest in making Lawyers and doctors cheaper
the government could just subsidize the education of lawyers and
doctors. If you flood the market the amount they charge would come down.
Try proposing that doctors and lawyers be given free tuition and you
will find it is the doctors and lawyers who are the first to object.

-jim

> Some reading material: http://www.pioneerinstitute.org/pdf/pdialg_32.pdf
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 13 Nov 2009 22:05 GMT
> . . . Cheap energy is a bubble it's a bubble that will burst. when
> government does everything it can to build an economy around cheap
> energy it will make it pop more explosively.

1974, 1979, 2008.

>         Rural people have had a disproportionate effected by the transportation
> policies of the last half century. Whether you regard that as a good or
> bad thing is a matter of taste.

About 10-20 years ago rural people paid a premium for utility and
other services since the cost to provide was higher due to low
density.  New more recent policies leveled out those higher prices;
but that meant other recipients had to pay more.

I can't help but get the feeling from reading posts around here that
many rural people don't realize the subsidized services they're
getting; and yet complain about subsidies other people get.
jim - 13 Nov 2009 23:58 GMT
> > . . . Cheap energy is a bubble it's a bubble that will burst. when
> > government does everything it can to build an economy around cheap
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> density.  New more recent policies leveled out those higher prices;
> but that meant other recipients had to pay more.

I think you are 60-70 behind. The rural electrification programs goes
back to 30's. The interstate system is heavily weighted towards rural
stretches that receive far more funding than they produce in use tax.
And don't even think about getting started on farm subsidies. 80 years
of handouts to farmers completely dwarf anything what has ever been
given to any inner city residents.

> I can't help but get the feeling from reading posts around here that
> many rural people don't realize the subsidized services they're
> getting; and yet complain about subsidies other people get.

Yes when people start obsessing about who is getting their fair share of
what you end up with something that looks a lot like Washington today.
gpsman - 13 Nov 2009 16:47 GMT
> > > > The number of trucks on roads is directly proportional to the demand
> > > > for trucks on roads.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Somebody, but exactly the same people who are eating it now.

Your knowledge of your subject seems a tad thin to support your
assertions.

> If the savings are due to increased efficiency then no one will eat it.

You got a bad case of the "ifs".

> Among other things,  there are going to be
> less trucks on the road if those taxes would increase.

Non sequitur.

> The important issue is not really whether trucks are being subsidized, but
> whether the energy used by trucks or  cars or anything else is being subsidized.
> If you use the tax structure to keep the cost of energy as low as possible then
> you have removed some incentive to use it efficiently.

I think fuel taxes suggest that is not the case.

> > You're going to reverse the tendencies of
> > corporations to centralize manufacturing and distribution in the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> hardware, tire, clothing etc. stores out of business  really help  that small
> town?

Non sequitur.

> It isn't that walmart operates a more
> efficient store. it is the distribution infrastructure that tips the playing
> field in walmart's favor.

Non sequitur.  I'm quite sure you don't know sh.t about the efficiency
of Wal-Mart... either.

> And that isn't a natural structure it is artificially
> created by tax law.

So, eliminate taxes, tax law or suffer unnatural structure?

> > > > The US economy rides on trucking and cheap freight rates.
>
> > > Certainly,

Then your unsupported assertion that: "Subsidy to truckers contributes
to more congestion on the highways more wear and tear on the highways
and gives nothing in return unless you like diesel exhaust" is
obviously false.

Thank you very much.
-----

- gpsman
jim - 13 Nov 2009 17:19 GMT
> > Among other things,  there are going to be
> > less trucks on the road if those taxes would increase.
>
> Non sequitur.

Obviously you are in complete denial of reality.

> > The important issue is not really whether trucks are being subsidized, but
> > whether the energy used by trucks or  cars or anything else is being subsidized.
> > If you use the tax structure to keep the cost of energy as low as possible then
> > you have removed some incentive to use it efficiently.
>
> I think fuel taxes suggest that is not the case.

Well that would be true if fuel taxes were fuel taxes used by government
to fund government functions, but instead they are really promotional
green stamps.

>  > > > > The US economy rides on trucking and cheap freight rates.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> and gives nothing in return unless you like diesel exhaust" is
> obviously false.

Your quoting me out of context. I said it gives nothing in return to the
motorist as a class. As you pointed out the only thing the motorist gets
is a break in the cost of fuel delivered from pipeline terminal to gas
station - that is probably at most a fraction of a penny per gallon.
Consumers as a class  do get lower prices, but  whether in the long run
that is a net savings is debatable since they also pay for the subsidy.
And they pay for the economic depressions that subsidized energy causes.
gpsman - 14 Nov 2009 06:37 GMT
> > > Among other things,  there are going to be
> > > less trucks on the road if those taxes would increase.
>
> > Non sequitur.
>
> Obviously you are in complete denial of reality.

I'm in complete denial regarding your ability to predict any such
effect from such vague criteria with such certainty, not to mention
your assertion that the goods will then somehow find alternate (and
obviously cheaper) transport, be replaced by other goods that will be
trucked lesser distances, or be deemed unworthy of transport, all of
which are in reality improbable.

> > > The important issue is not really whether trucks are being subsidized, but
> > > whether the energy used by trucks or  cars or anything else is being subsidized.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> to fund government functions, but instead they are really promotional
> green stamps.

So, fuel taxes are a rebate, like a rebate...?

Maybe "green stamps" is a economic term with which I am not familiar
but I think you are speaking in vague generalizations and implying
things don't work as they "should" due to the inherent and unvarying
malfeasance and/or incompetence of "government".

From whom have I read that perspective before, ad nauseum?

> > Then your unsupported assertion that: "Subsidy to truckers contributes
> > to more congestion on the highways more wear and tear on the highways
> > and gives nothing in return unless you like diesel exhaust" is
> > obviously false.
>
> Your quoting me out of context.

I don't think so.

> I said it gives nothing in return to the
> motorist as a class.

You said:
"You have to wonder where the notion comes from
that it is more in a motorists best interest to subsidize trucking
than it is to subsidize mass transit."

> As you pointed out the only thing the motorist gets
> is a break in the cost of fuel delivered from pipeline terminal to gas
> station - that is probably at most a fraction of a penny per gallon.

I suggested it as a motorist benefit, not as "the" benefit.

If the average trip to fuel points was 25 miles I think it might
amount to more than your fraction.

> Consumers as a class  do get lower prices, but  whether in the long run
> that is a net savings is debatable since they also pay for the subsidy.

There is no other more practical or efficient method by which to
transport the vast majority of materials and goods which is why the US
economy, and in reality all "modern" economies are sustained by
trucking and cheap freight rates.

> And they pay for the economic depressions that subsidized energy causes.

I'm no economist but pretty sure depressions are not due to single
causes.

I'm no psychologist but pretty sure your views of how things work are
unrealistically short-sided and simplistic, how they "should" work are
idealistic, and you assume and conclude that what is possible is
probable or certain rather freely.

There aren't any trucks roaming the roads in search of demand, they're
there due to demand, and when their numbers drop you can bet somebody
is going to be subsidizing more than unemployed drivers.
-----

- gpsman
jim - 14 Nov 2009 15:36 GMT
> > > > Among other things,  there are going to be
> > > > less trucks on the road if those taxes would increase.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> trucked lesser distances, or be deemed unworthy of transport, all of
> which are in reality improbable.

You just confirmed my statement. You are asking me to prove to you that
there is no truck on the road carrying a cargo where the cost makes any
difference. That is so far removed from reality its ridiculous. The
notion that trucking as an economic enterprise is entirely inelastic and
entirely impervious to cost is absurd on it's face.
    The simple fact is if taxes and fees on trucks were lowered then the
number of trucks and truck shipments would increase and if taxes went up
then the opposite would happen. And no I will not be bothered to try to
prove that statement. Sorry, if your stuck in LaLa land it's not my job
to pull you out.

> > > > The important issue is not really whether trucks are being subsidized, but
> > > > whether the energy used by trucks or  cars or anything else is being subsidized.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> So, fuel taxes are a rebate, like a rebate...?

No I wouldn't call it a rebate. It's more like dues or a promotional
fee. It is similar to  the state of Wisconsin puts a tax on milk and
uses that money to promote dairy products. California does the same.
This is not big government stealing money from poor dairy farmers this
is a partnership between government and industry to promote the
industry's products. The industry benefits because with increase sales
they more than recover the promotional fee.

> Maybe "green stamps" is a economic term with which I am not familiar
> but I think you are speaking in vague generalizations and implying
> things don't work as they "should" due to the inherent and unvarying
> malfeasance and/or incompetence of "government".

Quite the contrary. The current system of roads, trucks and cars is a
monument to government competence. There is absolutely no way the
private sector could have achieved anything even remotely approaching as
much on its own. I mean not even close.
    And that was my point, this was a political decision. There is no
reason to believe that a different political decision could not have
been carried through with the same level of competence.  For example, a
hundred years ago when most long distance transportation inside the
country was by rail the government could have established the same sort
promotional dues for rail travel and they could have plowed all those
fees they collected from every passenger and every piece of freight back
into building rail infrastructure.  And the oil and auto, truck and tire
manufacturers would have been left in the lurch. The road system could
have been  entirely left to the private sector and local municipalities
and it is extremely doubtful any of it would have developed anywhere
near as much under that scenario. There is no good reason why that
version of history could not have been done with the same level of
government competence. And those certainly aren't the only possible
scenarios.
    The current system is a partnership between government and certain
industries to promote their products and there is absolutely no doubt
that it has been extremely successful at doing just that.

> From whom have I read that perspective before, ad nauseum?
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> that it is more in a motorists best interest to subsidize trucking
> than it is to subsidize mass transit."

Yes, so where does that come from?

> > As you pointed out the only thing the motorist gets
> > is a break in the cost of fuel delivered from pipeline terminal to gas
> > station - that is probably at most a fraction of a penny per gallon.
>
> I suggested it as a motorist benefit, not as "the" benefit.

You suggested no other benefit at all that specifically benefits only
motorists and not just people in general.

> If the average trip to fuel points was 25 miles I think it might
> amount to more than your fraction.

Well yes maybe you could get it above a cent if you raised the tax on
diesel by $4/gallon. Do the math -> a tanker carries 8000 gallons and it
consumes maybe 20 gallons of fuel to make that average delivery. But
even that equation would change over time. At that level of tax the
trucks on the road would eventually be able to make that delivery using
only 10 gallons of fuel so the actual increase cost to the motorist
would then become about a 1/2 cent. So you would need to raise the
diesel fuel tax to maybe $10/gallon before the motorist will see an
extra penny/gallon on the price of gas.

> > Consumers as a class  do get lower prices, but  whether in the long run
> > that is a net savings is debatable since they also pay for the subsidy.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> economy, and in reality all "modern" economies are sustained by
> trucking and cheap freight rates.

Yes, and you apparently are convinced that there is no chance that might
be a serious problem looking into the future?
    I mean, given that it is only those economies that are not so dependent
on trucking that just happen to be the only economies that have been
growing steadily instead of shrinking in the past year - that doesn't
tell you anything at all?

> > And they pay for the economic depressions that subsidized energy causes.
>
> I'm no economist but pretty sure depressions are not due to single
> causes.

Well economies shouldn't be so dependent on a single commodity. It might
be a good idea to not put all your eggs in a basket with a weak bottom.

> I'm no psychologist but pretty sure your views of how things work are
> unrealistically short-sided and simplistic, how they "should" work are
> idealistic, and you assume and conclude that what is possible is
> probable or certain rather freely.

HA HA HA yeah right. I haven't said much of anything at all about how
things  work or how they should work. All I said was if you raise or
lower the tax and fees on trucks it will raise or lower the number of
trucks on the road and you choked on that.

-jim

> There aren't any trucks roaming the roads in search of demand, they're
> there due to demand, and when their numbers drop you can bet somebody
> is going to be subsidizing more than unemployed drivers.
>  -----
>
> - gpsman
gpsman - 14 Nov 2009 22:53 GMT
> > > > > Among other things,  there are going to be
> > > > > less trucks on the road if those taxes would increase.

> > I'm in complete denial regarding your ability to predict any such
> > effect from such vague criteria with such certainty, not to mention
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> You just confirmed my statement.

I guess I better choose my words more carefully.

> You are asking me to prove to you that
> there is no truck on the road carrying a cargo where the cost makes any
> difference.

No, I'm telling you I'm in complete denial regarding your ability to
predict any such effect from such vague criteria with such certainty.

I have never as an adult asked anyone to prove anything, but I am fond
of factual evidence.

> That is so far removed from reality its ridiculous. The
> notion that trucking as an economic enterprise is entirely inelastic and
> entirely impervious to cost is absurd on it's face.

Straw man.

>         The simple fact is if taxes and fees on trucks were lowered then the
> number of trucks and truck shipments would increase and if taxes went up
> then the opposite would happen.

The number of trucks on the road is proportional to available freight
according to the principles of supply/demand.

> And no I will not be bothered to try to
> prove that statement.

If it's a simple fact why not forward the tiniest evidence?

> Sorry, if your stuck in LaLa land it's not my job
> to pull you out.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> industry's products. The industry benefits because with increase sales
> they more than recover the promotional fee.

Advertising ≠ increased sales.

“Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is I
don't know which half.”- John Wanamaker

> > Maybe "green stamps" is a economic term with which I am not familiar
> > but I think you are speaking in vague generalizations and implying
> > things don't work as they "should" due to the inherent and unvarying
> > malfeasance and/or incompetence of "government".

> Quite the contrary. The current system of roads, trucks and cars is a
> monument to government competence.

That doesn't address your implication that fuel taxes are misspent, or
that fuel taxes are not evidence contrary to "use (of) the tax
structure (acts) to keep the cost of energy as low as possible."

> There is absolutely no way the
> private sector could have achieved anything even remotely approaching as
> much on its own. I mean not even close.
>         And that was my point, this was a political decision.

You seem to have a lot of irrelevant points.

> There is no
> reason to believe that a different political decision could not have
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> fees they collected from every passenger and every piece of freight back
> into building rail infrastructure.

If.

> And the oil and auto, truck and tire
> manufacturers would have been left in the lurch.

Non sequitur.  Assumes those fees would not stifle long distance trade
and personal and business travel.

> The road system could
> have been  entirely left to the private sector and local municipalities
> and it is extremely doubtful any of it would have developed anywhere
> near as much under that scenario.

Granted, but irrelevant.

> There is no good reason why that
> version of history could not have been done with the same level of
> government competence.

Other than being far less practical.

> And those certainly aren't the only possible
> scenarios.

Thanks for pointing that out.

>         The current system is a partnership between government and certain
> industries to promote their products and there is absolutely no doubt
> that it has been extremely successful at doing just that.

I'm not sure what that means.

From whom have I read that perspective before, ad nauseum?

> > From whom have I read that perspective before, ad nauseum?
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Yes, so where does that come from?

It's your notion.

Perhaps motorists like being employed and do not share your disdain
for the contributions of trucking to the economy on which those jobs
depend.  Maybe they don't like waiting for trains at crossings,
especially at switchyards.  Maybe they don't like being stuck behind
buses.  Maybe they don't see mass transit as more practical for their
everyday transportation needs than driving.  Maybe numerous mass
transit trips to tote home the groceries seems unpleasant.  Maybe
driving the kids to school seems more safe than having them subject to
being run over on the way to the bus stop by some dumbass who
staunchly believes the road system is intended to provide travel
between points in the fewest possible seconds.

> > > As you pointed out the only thing the motorist gets
> > > is a break in the cost of fuel delivered from pipeline terminal to gas
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> You suggested no other benefit at all that specifically benefits only
> motorists and not just people in general.

So that means there are no others?  Thanks, I guess.

How about the convenience of automobile dealerships; availability of
automotive parts at those dealerships and parts stores and Wal-Marts
and even grocery stores, smaller amounts of hazmat subject to being
derailed mid-city due to some dumbass stopped on the tracks...?

> > If the average trip to fuel points was 25 miles I think it might
> > amount to more than your fraction.
>
> Well yes maybe you could get it above a cent if you raised the tax on
> diesel by $4/gallon. Do the math -> a tanker carries 8000 gallons

http://www.truckpaper.com/list/list.aspx?ETID=1&catid=64&bcatid=28

> and it
> consumes maybe 20 gallons of fuel to make that average delivery. But
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> diesel fuel tax to maybe $10/gallon before the motorist will see an
> extra penny/gallon on the price of gas.

Taxes reduce distance, improve fuel economy, increase both
distribution and trailer tank capacities, or the trucking industry
just eats the $10/gallon...?

But at least you have at least finally managed to come up with 1
number.

> > There is no other more practical or efficient method by which to
> > transport the vast majority of materials and goods which is why the US
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Yes, and you apparently are convinced that there is no chance that might
> be a serious problem looking into the future?

Irrelevant.

>         I mean, given that it is only those economies that are not so dependent
> on trucking that just happen to be the only economies that have been
> growing steadily instead of shrinking in the past year - that doesn't
> tell you anything at all?

It might, if I had your list of those economies, but I think my a.s is
plumb full of smoke.

> > > And they pay for the economic depressions that subsidized energy causes.
>
> > I'm no economist but pretty sure depressions are not due to single
> > causes.
>
> Well economies shouldn't be so dependent on a single commodity.

Irrelevant.

> It might
> be a good idea to not put all your eggs in a basket with a weak bottom.

Also irrelevant.

> > I'm no psychologist but pretty sure your views of how things work are
> > unrealistically short-sided and simplistic, how they "should" work are
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> HA HA HA yeah right. I haven't said much of anything at all about how
> things  work or how they should work.

Then what, in your estimation anyway, are the bases of your argument/
s?  I think they tend toward unfounded assumptions and extrapolations.

> All I said was if you raise or
> lower the tax and fees on trucks it will raise or lower the number of
> trucks on the road and you choked on that.

More like spit took.

Any blanket tax applies to all.

For every truck that might bite the dust there is another waiting to
replace it to meet demand.

If your idea is to reduce the number of trucks by deliberate reduction
of trade, that's just silly.
-----

- gpsman
jim - 14 Nov 2009 23:35 GMT
> If your idea is to reduce the number of trucks by deliberate reduction
> of trade, that's just silly.

I said if you reduce taxes there would be more trucks on the road. How
does your pea brain interpret that to mean "your idea is to reduce the
number of trucks by deliberate reduction of trade"

-jim
gpsman - 15 Nov 2009 02:22 GMT
> > If your idea is to reduce the number of trucks by deliberate reduction
> > of trade, that's just silly.
>
> I said if you reduce taxes there would be more trucks on the road. How
> does your pea brain interpret that to mean "your idea is to reduce the
> number of trucks by deliberate reduction of trade"

It would be refreshing if you could remember what you write:

"If you double the taxes on trucks the number of trucks on the road
will decrease because less will be shipped by truck."

(I suspect you have no idea of the average tax burden on a truck.)

"<> as costs go up some goods will find other ways to
get to their destinations and some will be replaced by goods that
don't need to travel so far and some will be deemed not worth
transporting at all)".

Your assumption that there exists another mode of shipping that even
approaches the value trucking offers in efficiency, speed,
flexibility, availability and reliability conspicuously lacks as much
specification as it does mass.
-----

- gpsman
rshersh@gmail.com - 15 Nov 2009 02:29 GMT
> (I suspect you have no idea of the average tax burden on a truck.)
>
> "<

pray tell, what exactly is it, currently?

It was about $8000 a year
jim - 15 Nov 2009 03:09 GMT
> > > If your idea is to reduce the number of trucks by deliberate reduction
> > > of trade, that's just silly.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> (I suspect you have no idea of the average tax burden on a truck.)

> "<> as costs go up some goods will find other ways to
> get to their destinations and some will be replaced by goods that
> don't need to travel so far and some will be deemed not worth
> transporting at all)".

Those are statements of fact. As statements go they are about as
profound as saying if you eat to much you get fat and if you eat too
little you get skinny. And don't bother asking, i'm not going to cite
any evidence for those statements either.

> Your assumption that there exists another mode of shipping that even
> approaches the value trucking offers in efficiency, speed,
> flexibility, availability and reliability conspicuously lacks as much
> specification as it does mass.

I never stated that assumption. I did say that if taxes rise  one of
many consequences of that would be some goods would find other modes of
transport. Now maybe in some world where no goods have ever been shipped
by anything other than trucks that may seem like a radical
incomprehensible statement, but I don't live in such a world.

-jim

>  -----
>
> - gpsman
gpsman - 15 Nov 2009 03:45 GMT
> > > > If your idea is to reduce the number of trucks by deliberate reduction
> > > > of trade, that's just silly.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Those are statements of fact.

Those are unsupported assertions.

> As statements go they are about as
> profound as saying if you eat to much you get fat and if you eat too
> little you get skinny. And don't bother asking, i'm not going to cite
> any evidence for those statements either.

Why violate your established tradition?

> > Your assumption that there exists another mode of shipping that even
> > approaches the value trucking offers in efficiency, speed,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> many consequences of that would be some goods would find other modes of
> transport.

Which...?

> Now maybe in some world where no goods have ever been shipped
> by anything other than trucks that may seem like a radical
> incomprehensible statement, but I don't live in such a world.

Straw man.  Appeal to ridicule.

You're out of argument.  You've nothing to resort to but
substantiating your assertions or <plonk>.
-----

- gpsman
jim - 15 Nov 2009 12:50 GMT
> You're out of argument.  You've nothing to resort to but
> substantiating your assertions or <plonk>.

That is correct. You want to create an argument over the simplest of
concepts such as " the sky is blue".  I'm out of arguments on that one
too.....

-jim
Scott in SoCal - 15 Nov 2009 16:53 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net> said:

>I never stated that assumption. I did say that if taxes rise  one of
>many consequences of that would be some goods would find other modes of
>transport. Now maybe in some world where no goods have ever been shipped
>by anything other than trucks that may seem like a radical
>incomprehensible statement, but I don't live in such a world.

Welcome to the world of GPSTroll, who, incidentally, runs a school
that teached Truckers how to drive. Oh, but he's not biased or
anything. :)
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 15 Nov 2009 04:01 GMT
> Perhaps motorists like being employed and do not share your disdain
> for the contributions of trucking to the economy on which those jobs
> depend.  Maybe they don't like waiting for trains at crossings,
> especially at switchyards.  Maybe they don't like being stuck behind
> buses.  

What about those motorists and pedestrians who are forced to wait
behind huge trucks blocking streets as they make turns?

What about those motorists who have to pay for the damage trucks do to
the highways?
gpsman - 15 Nov 2009 05:53 GMT
On Nov 14, 11:01 pm, hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> > Perhaps motorists like being employed and do not share your disdain
> > for the contributions of trucking to the economy on which those jobs
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> What about those motorists and pedestrians who are forced to wait
> behind huge trucks blocking streets as they make turns?

That's the time and impetus government allots for them to come up with
alternate modes of transport, for themselves and/or trucks.

> What about those motorists who have to pay for the damage trucks do to
> the highways?

They get to not pay for highways trucks won't damage and compensate
the trucking industry for the 75% of fatal car-truck collisions caused
by 4-wheelers (and the cost of defending those unjustified lawsuits
and the judgments rendered by juries who know only the two things
about trucking everybody who has never driven a truck think they
know.)
http://www.aaafoundation.org/pdf/CarTruck.pdf
-----

- gpsman
John S - 15 Nov 2009 17:37 GMT
>> Perhaps motorists like being employed and do not share your disdain
>> for the contributions of trucking to the economy on which those jobs
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> What about those motorists and pedestrians who are forced to wait
> behind huge trucks blocking streets as they make turns?

That's an interesting logic.  So-- what about those trucks that are
"forced" to wait in rush hour traffic, or vehicle traffic that is
"forced" to wait for pedestrians crossing streets?
rshersh@gmail.com - 17 Nov 2009 00:00 GMT
On Nov 14, 11:01 pm, hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> > Perhaps motorists like being employed and do not share your disdain
> > for the contributions of trucking to the economy on which those jobs
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> What about those motorists who have to pay for the damage trucks do to
> the highways?

what you ought to mention is this:

what about the one vehicle accident with the idiot truck driver
flipping his rig over by driving too fast for a curve or ramp

who pays the vehicle drivers for their time delayed when the road is
blocked because of the idiot truck driver?
Bernd Felsche - 17 Nov 2009 02:46 GMT
>On Nov 14, 11:01=A0pm, hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

>> > Perhaps motorists like being employed and do not share your
>> > disdain for the contributions of trucking to the economy on
>> > which those jobs depend. ...

>> What about those motorists and pedestrians who are forced to wait
>> behind huge trucks blocking streets as they make turns?

>> What about those motorists who have to pay for the damage trucks
>> do to the highways?

Losing sight of the big picture can be a problem when attributing
"who pays".

Goods vehicles carry goods. Stuff that is bought and sold.
If the vehicles have to pay more to use the roads, then they will
pass that increase on in the form of (higher) transport charges. The
new bureaucracy that collects the fees from truck operators also
needs to be fed. So the charges for the use of the roads will have
to be higher than for simply maintaining the roads.

It's simply a matter of accepting that the greater good is served by
providing the roads for the use of trucks, so that everything doesn't
get more expensive; largely due to the creation of a new
bureaucracy. A bureaucracy that sucks wealth.

>what you ought to mention is this:

>what about the one vehicle accident with the idiot truck driver
>flipping his rig over by driving too fast for a curve or ramp

>who pays the vehicle drivers for their time delayed when the road is
>blocked because of the idiot truck driver?

In e.g. Germany, the idiot truck driver, should others choose to
claim damages.

I'm sure that you could do so in other countries where there is
still a rule of law.
Signature

/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | Politics is the art of looking for trouble,
X   against HTML mail     | finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly
/ \  and postings          | and applying the wrong remedies - Groucho Marx

Scott in SoCal - 17 Nov 2009 06:13 GMT
Last time on rec.autos.driving, Bernd Felsche
<berfel@innovative.iinet.net.au> said:

>>> What about those motorists who have to pay for the damage trucks
>>> do to the highways?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>If the vehicles have to pay more to use the roads, then they will
>pass that increase on in the form of (higher) transport charges.

Or shippers of goods will find more cost-effective shipping methods.
gpsman - 17 Nov 2009 06:33 GMT
> Last time on rec.autos.driving, Bernd Felsche
> <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> said:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Or shippers of goods will find more cost-effective shipping methods.

I don't think Bernd has yet detected the depth and breadth of your
engineering expertise, and I doubt this post of yours is going to
help.
-----

- gpsman
Bernd Felsche - 18 Nov 2009 15:16 GMT
>Last time on rec.autos.driving, Bernd Felsche
><berfel@innovative.iinet.net.au> said:

>>>> What about those motorists who have to pay for the damage trucks
>>>> do to the highways?

>>Losing sight of the big picture can be a problem when attributing
>>"who pays".

>>Goods vehicles carry goods. Stuff that is bought and sold.
>>If the vehicles have to pay more to use the roads, then they will
>>pass that increase on in the form of (higher) transport charges.

>Or shippers of goods will find more cost-effective shipping methods.

Like slaves pedalling carts?
Signature

/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | Politics is the art of looking for trouble,
X   against HTML mail     | finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly
/ \  and postings          | and applying the wrong remedies - Groucho Marx

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 17 Nov 2009 15:36 GMT
On Nov 16, 9:46 pm, Bernd Felsche <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au>
wrote:

> Goods vehicles carry goods. Stuff that is bought and sold.
> If the vehicles have to pay more to use the roads, then they will
> pass that increase on in the form of (higher) transport charges.

Exactly how much more?  Will that 25c piece of candy now cost $5?  Or
maybe only 26c?

> The
> new bureaucracy that collects the fees from truck operators also
> needs to be fed. So the charges for the use of the roads will have
> to be higher than for simply maintaining the roads.

NO NEW bureaucracy is needed.  Simply raise the existing truck taxes.

> It's simply a matter of accepting that the greater good is served by
> providing the roads for the use of trucks, so that everything doesn't
> get more expensive; largely due to the creation of a new
> bureaucracy. A bureaucracy that sucks wealth.

That is NOT the "big picture".

The big picture would include that other motorists would save money
because trucks would be paying their fair share.  Now, motorists are
subsidizing trucks.

So sure, we might have to pay a few cents more for groceries, but
would save money on our fuel taxes.
gpsman - 17 Nov 2009 17:11 GMT
On Nov 17, 10:36 am, hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Nov 16, 9:46 pm, Bernd Felsche <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Exactly how much more?  Will that 25c piece of candy now cost $5?  Or
> maybe only 26c?

Perhaps -you- might estimate that number by examining the disparity of
highway costs borne by the different classes of vehicles.

That you apparently haven't investigated those figures suggests you
are comfortable forming conclusions from ignorance.

> NO NEW bureaucracy is needed.  Simply raise the existing truck taxes.

Which... by what amount... by what measure...?

> The big picture would include that other motorists would save money
> because trucks would be paying their fair share.  Now, motorists are
> subsidizing trucks.

Non sequitur.  Requires taxes on other motorists be reduced.

> So sure, we might have to pay a few cents more for groceries, but
> would save money on our fuel taxes.

Try to get a grip and inject some rationality into your argument.

Will you raise taxes on trucks hauling road building materials...
cement; cars; gasoline and other petroleum products used to
manufacture common goods (like monitor cleaning fluid dispensers),
produce and meat, loggers (and paper and furniture)...?

Will your tax be proportional to distance and/or weight?
-----

- gpsman
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 17 Nov 2009 19:33 GMT
> Perhaps -you- might estimate that number by examining the disparity of
> highway costs borne by the different classes of vehicles.
>
> That you apparently haven't investigated those figures suggests you
> are comfortable forming conclusions from ignorance.

Actually numerous civil engineers in multiple states have stated that
highways cost substantially more to accomodate trucks than if they
were to accomodate automobiles only.

But if you suggest I'm ignorant, why don't you educate me by answering
the question:  how much more will groceries cost?

Indeed, many in the motor truck industry are quick to remind us of
increased costs if truckers faced higher costs or 53' trucks were
banned from local uses.  But what is the actual number?

It's also possible than when 53' trucks were introduced, trucking
companies merely kept the savings and didn't pass any to their
customers.

> > NO NEW bureaucracy is needed.  Simply raise the existing truck taxes.
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> - gpsman
gpsman - 17 Nov 2009 22:59 GMT
On Nov 17, 2:33 pm, hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> > Perhaps -you- might estimate that number by examining the disparity of
> > highway costs borne by the different classes of vehicles.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> highways cost substantially more to accomodate trucks than if they
> were to accomodate automobiles only.

Those engineers seem to have a remarkable grasp of what few would need
an engineer to state.

> But if you suggest I'm ignorant, why don't you educate me by answering
> the question:  how much more will groceries cost?

$1000.

> Indeed, many in the motor truck industry are quick to remind us of
> increased costs if truckers faced higher costs or 53' trucks were
> banned from local uses.  But what is the actual number?

3.14159, indeed!

> It's also possible than when 53' trucks were introduced, trucking
> companies merely kept the savings and didn't pass any to their
> customers.

Because their customers wouldn't notice or have any interest in an
extra 5' of trailer...?  It was an industry secret?  They cost no more
than a 48' to purchase, license, insure or pull?

You don't need to add goofy to irrelevant.
-----

- gpsman
Stephen Sprunk - 17 Nov 2009 15:56 GMT
>> On Nov 14, 11:01=A0pm, hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>> Perhaps motorists like being employed and do not share your
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> If the vehicles have to pay more to use the roads, then they will
> pass that increase on in the form of (higher) transport charges.

... or the goods will shift to more efficient forms of transport, or
alternate goods will be found that don't need to be transported as far.

> The new bureaucracy that collects the fees from truck operators also
> needs to be fed.

That bureaucracy already exists; raising the existing fees will not
meaningfully affect how much it needs to be "fed", except that legal
fees for prosecuting evaders might increase a bit.

> So the charges for the use of the roads will have to be higher than
> for simply maintaining the roads.

It already is today, as with anything else government or private
industry does.  That's not news.

The issue is the division of the charges, not how much is collected.

>> what about the one vehicle accident with the idiot truck driver
>> flipping his rig over by driving too fast for a curve or ramp
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> In e.g. Germany, the idiot truck driver, should others choose to
> claim damages.

In the US, if there were a civil judgment against the idiot truck
driver, he'd either (a) have his insurance pay for it, which will
indirectly raise the cost of truck transportation for all goods, or (b)
declare bankruptcy.

Most truckers are independent contractors, so it's not like they have
much in the way of attachable assets to pay off a civil judgment.  This
is little different from the typical US driver who maintains minimum
liability insurance coverage (usually $25k/50k); if he causes an
accident that costs someone else a million dollars in medical treatment,
he simply declares bankruptcy and it's up to the victim (or the
taxpayers) to cover the remainder.

S

Signature

Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 17 Nov 2009 16:12 GMT
> >> who pays the vehicle drivers for their time delayed when the road is
> >> blocked because of the idiot truck driver?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> indirectly raise the cost of truck transportation for all goods, or (b)
> declare bankruptcy.

In the U.S., I strongly doubt motorists not directly involved in a
crash are able to collect damages because of their inconvenience and
lost time.

In other words, if you're stuck in a jammup for two hours because of a
crash up ahead, you have no recourse, you can not go after whoever
caused the crash to make up for your lost time.

And if you're stuck on a jam on a toll road, you still must pay the
full toll.
Stephen Sprunk - 17 Nov 2009 17:05 GMT
Please don't remove attribution lines if you're not also removing the
related quotes.

>>>> who pays the vehicle drivers for their time delayed when the road is
>>>> blocked because of the idiot truck driver?
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> crash up ahead, you have no recourse, you can not go after whoever
> caused the crash to make up for your lost time.

AIUI, he was proposing that be possible in the US.

> And if you're stuck on a jam on a toll road, you still must pay the
> full toll.

Yep.  You still used the road, regardless of how fast you were going.
It's not the _toll authority's_ fault that some idiot lost control of
his vehicle, so why should they lose revenue?

FWIW, NTTA investigated switching to congestion-based tolls (i.e. the
slower you go, the higher the toll), but found that it would be
infeasible due to technical difficulties and public resistance, despite
the projected improvements in average speed.  However, when doing the
study they found that the vast majority of congestion was caused by
suboptimal ramp designs, merge lanes, etc. and they've been working to
fix those problems--paid for with a toll increase.  Unfortunately,
off-peak drivers (like me) also have to pay more now, even though we get
no benefit from the improvements (which only matter at peak).

S

Signature

Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Jim Yanik - 17 Nov 2009 18:46 GMT
> FWIW, NTTA investigated switching to congestion-based tolls (i.e. the
> slower you go, the higher the toll), but found that it would be
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> S

Has this "congestion-based tolls" been implemented anywhere?
Any real-world evidence that it actually improves things other than
revenue?

Signature

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

Jim Yanik - 17 Nov 2009 18:43 GMT
>>> On Nov 14, 11:01=A0pm, hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>>> Perhaps motorists like being employed and do not share your
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>>> What about those motorists and pedestrians who are forced to wait
>>>> behind huge trucks blocking streets as they make turns?

There aren't that many pedestrians anymore;it's not safe to walk the
streets these days....
"forced to wait",OH HEAVENS,that they should be inconvenienced for a short
while! How TERRIBLE.

>>>> What about those motorists who have to pay for the damage trucks
>>>> do to the highways?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> ... or the goods will shift to more efficient forms of transport, or
> alternate goods will be found that don't need to be transported as far.

maybe,maybe not.
Maybe,the current form of transpo IS the most efficient form.
(Of course,socialists can always MAKE it less "efficient"...)
More likely is that the seller will RAISE prices.
Most of the time,those "alternate goods" will not be available closer;
not much is manufactured in the US anymore.

Signature

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

John David Galt - 17 Nov 2009 20:12 GMT
>>> What about those motorists who have to pay for the damage trucks
>>> do to the highways?

> Losing sight of the big picture can be a problem when attributing
> "who pays".
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> get more expensive; largely due to the creation of a new
> bureaucracy. A bureaucracy that sucks wealth.

I don't buy it.  Increase truck registration fees to pay for it, and the
shippers will have enough incentive to change to rail or other modes
when it makes sense.  As it stands now, too much ships by truck.
Stephen Sprunk - 18 Nov 2009 23:19 GMT
>> Goods vehicles carry goods. Stuff that is bought and sold.
>> If the vehicles have to pay more to use the roads, then they will
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> shippers will have enough incentive to change to rail or other modes
> when it makes sense.  As it stands now, too much ships by truck.

More precisely, intermodal freight cannot currently compete at distances
under 700mi due to trucking subsidies.  If shipping by truck included
the full cost, rail would be able to compete at much shorter distances,
and the vast majority of ton-miles would be by rail, with only short
legs at the end via truck.

And, of course, railroads pay property taxes, franchise taxes, income
taxes, sales taxes, etc. which go in part to funding their competitors'
roads, in addition to all the car-to-truck subsidies, while highways pay
no taxes at all.

S

Signature

Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Philip Nasadowski - 19 Nov 2009 04:12 GMT
> More precisely, intermodal freight cannot currently compete at distances
> under 700mi due to trucking subsidies.  If shipping by truck included
> the full cost, rail would be able to compete at much shorter distances,
> and the vast majority of ton-miles would be by rail, with only short
> legs at the end via truck.

Uh huh.

And what about those of us, i.e., most businesses, who want their stuff
shipped in less than one month's time and arrive in one piece?  And
aren't ordering in dozen-container quantities?
Jim Yanik - 19 Nov 2009 13:05 GMT
Philip Nasadowski <nasadowsk@usermale.com> wrote in news:nasadowsk-
F1305C.23124718112009@news.optonline.net:

>> More precisely, intermodal freight cannot currently compete at distances
>> under 700mi due to trucking subsidies.  If shipping by truck included
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> shipped in less than one month's time and arrive in one piece?  And
> aren't ordering in dozen-container quantities?

I think that Sprunk is a communist;he seems to want to "socialize"
transportation,through gov't power.

Signature

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

Matthew Russotto - 21 Nov 2009 03:59 GMT
>> More precisely, intermodal freight cannot currently compete at distances
>> under 700mi due to trucking subsidies.  If shipping by truck included
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>shipped in less than one month's time and arrive in one piece?  And
>aren't ordering in dozen-container quantities?

There is such a thing as less-than-containerload (LCL).  But yeah,
not until the freight on rails travels when its convenient for the shipper
and not when it is convenient for the rail line will it be competitive
for most goods it isn't currently used for.
Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

jim - 21 Nov 2009 13:24 GMT
> >> More precisely, intermodal freight cannot currently compete at distances
> >> under 700mi due to trucking subsidies.  If shipping by truck included
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> and not when it is convenient for the rail line will it be competitive
> for most goods it isn't currently used for.

Your appeal to preserving the status quo does make sense if you look at
it strictly from a historical perspective. The reality is that the
current transportation and economic model that the government funds
works well when the price of oil is stable and low. Currently the
inflation adjusted price of oil is  approximately the same as in the
60's and it is arguable that  for the moment the system is adequate. At
the current oil price and supply level the system appears to work
effectively. But anyone who has been paying attention will have observed
that when the price of oil goes up the system grinds to a halt. The
question thus becomes how many recession or depressions are people going
to be willing to endure before they realize the status quo is not
suitable for the existing reality going into the future.

> --
> The problem with socialism is there's always
> someone with less ability and more need.

The current transportation system is socialized and that is a fact that
is extremely unlikely to change. The people who think it should be
privatized instead are the idiots and they should rightly be ignored.
For the  remaining 99% of the population the question is  what form will
the socialized transportation system take in the future.
Matthew Russotto - 21 Nov 2009 21:00 GMT
>effectively. But anyone who has been paying attention will have observed
>that when the price of oil goes up the system grinds to a halt.

Really?  I must have missed all those products failing to be shipped
by truck in 2008.
Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

jim - 21 Nov 2009 23:26 GMT
> >effectively. But anyone who has been paying attention will have observed
> >that when the price of oil goes up the system grinds to a halt.
>
> Really?  I must have missed all those products failing to be shipped
> by truck in 2008.

OK so that makes you not someone who is paying attention.
Matthew Russotto - 22 Nov 2009 00:55 GMT
>> >effectively. But anyone who has been paying attention will have observed
>> >that when the price of oil goes up the system grinds to a halt.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>OK so that makes you not someone who is paying attention.

One of us is living in an alternate reality, that's for sure.
Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 21 Nov 2009 23:24 GMT
> The current transportation system is socialized and that is a fact that
> is extremely unlikely to change. The people who think it should be
> privatized instead are the idiots and they should rightly be ignored.
> For the  remaining 99% of the population the question is  what form will
> the socialized transportation system take in the future.

Good point.

Although at the present the mideast is somewhat stable and there is an
adequate supply of cheap oil, it wasn't very long ago that gasoline
was at $5.00/gallon or there was shooting in the mideast.  Over there,
all it takes is one whackos to disrupt the oil chain and there are
plenty of whackos to go around.  When the recession ends demand will
go up again and the price of oil products will increase.

Another issue is that with 50% of the US oil imported, we have to
worry about so many dollars leaving the country going elsewhere.  The
dollar will probably be devalued soon making imported oil more
expensive.  If they stop trading oil in dollars, as they're
considering, it will make things worse.

My prediction for future, given inadequate highway space, opposition
toward new building and no available land, and oil troubles, is that
the share between transit and the private car with shift a few
percentage points.  Not a lot.

For some reason, a small shift of a few points drives some people
absolutely ballistic.  Perhaps they have a vested interest in the
status quo.
gpsman - 19 Nov 2009 05:06 GMT
> More precisely, intermodal freight cannot currently compete at distances
> under 700mi due to trucking subsidies.  If shipping by truck included
> the full cost, rail would be able to compete at much shorter distances,
> and the vast majority of ton-miles would be by rail, with only short
> legs at the end via truck.

Why is it those with the most opinion are so often the most ignorant?

<q>Table 8 shows total over or underpayments of highway user fees by
each of the 20 vehicle classes analyzed in this study. Pickups and
vans have the largest over or underpayment of any vehicle class; as a
group those vehicles pay $1.6 billion more in highway user fees than
their highway cost responsibility.

Other vehicle classes that in the aggregate pay more than their
highway cost responsibility are 2-axle single unit trucks, all truck-
trailer combinations, and 5- and 6-axle twin-trailer combinations.
Five-axle tractor semitrailers have the largest total underpayment of
any vehicle class, followed by automobiles and 3- and 4-axle single
unit trucks.
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/hcas/summary/sum3.html#2000
-----

- gpsman
Clark F Morris - 19 Nov 2009 18:28 GMT
>>> Goods vehicles carry goods. Stuff that is bought and sold.
>>> If the vehicles have to pay more to use the roads, then they will
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>roads, in addition to all the car-to-truck subsidies, while highways pay
>no taxes at all.

It depends on the state or province in the case of Canada as to what
railroad property is subject to tax and many jurisdictions have
repealed taxes on right of way.  Franchise taxes might apply to both
modes as do income and sales taxes.

>S
gl4317@yahoo.com - 16 Nov 2009 05:25 GMT
In article
<ef3bb8c3-23d0-4b55-a912-6f21d1d95a5b@r31g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,

> There is no other more practical or efficient method by which to
> transport the vast majority of materials and goods which is why the US
> economy, and in reality all "modern" economies are sustained by
> trucking and cheap freight rates.

For what it is worth, here is at least one estimate of what the trucking
industry subsidy is like in the USA:
http://truecostblog.com/2009/06/02/the-hidden-trucking-industry-subsidy/

Signature

-Glennl
Please note this e-mail address is a pit of spam, and most e-mail sent to this address are simply lost in the vast mess.

jim - 16 Nov 2009 19:20 GMT
> In article
> <ef3bb8c3-23d0-4b55-a912-6f21d1d95a5b@r31g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> industry subsidy is like in the USA:
> http://truecostblog.com/2009/06/02/the-hidden-trucking-industry-subsidy/

I think there is a problem with your analysis. It would be my guess that
the weather accounts for maybe half the wear on roads. Roads with hardly
any traffic may last about twice as long, but they deteriorate too.
Since the weather is an act of God I guess the churches should taxed  to
pay for 50% of the cost.

-jim
Stephen Sprunk - 21 Nov 2009 22:24 GMT
>> But it isn't false. the more you subsidize trucking the more trucks on
>> the road you will get. Or put it the opposite way, if you increase fuel
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Fee increases are passed on to the consumer.

Yes, but those price increases will have an effect on consumer behavior.

For instance, imagine that item X costs $1 if made in China or $8 if
made in the US.  Imagine that item X costs $5 to transport from China
and $1 within the US.  The vast majority of consumers are going to buy
the Chinese one because the total cost is lower.  However, double the
transportation costs for both and customer buying will shift to the
American one, resulting in less transportation demand, lower total
transportation costs, less pollution, more American jobs, a lower trade
imbalance, etc.

>> Subsidizing trucking would tend to
>> put more trucks on the road. It should be obvious, that if you collect
>> more taxes from trucks there is less need for tax collected from car
>> drivers.
>
> Taxes, higher prices, only the route differs.

You are ignoring the effect that the higher price will have on demand.

>> And then there is the little thing of trucks have an advantage
>> when they collide with motorists.  So very clearly the thinking motorist
>> would find his interests to be at odds with trucking.
>
> Unless he likes to eat and prefers to not "farm", or live near
> farms... where they move farmed goods from the fields in... trucks.

Does it really make sense for us to be shipping produce several thousand
miles across the country--or even from other continents--when we can
grow the same crop a few dozen/hundred miles away?

>> OTOH, Subsidizing mass transit can reduce traffic congestion
>
> I guess it could, but I'm not familiar with anyone I think would
> choose mass transit over driving unless it was among their last
> options.

That is the case in most US cities because development patterns
(enforced by the government) are deliberately anti-transit.

Ask someone from NYC or a non-US major world city like London or Paris,
though, and you'll get an entirely different answer.  Why would they
want to deal with the hassle of owning a car, driving in congested
traffic, trying to find (extremely expensive) parking, etc. when the
subway is faster, cheaper, and more convenient?

>> The thinking motorist might find its a good
>> idea to support some level of mass transit.
>
> That mass transit is going to require infrastructure.  That seems to
> indicate real estate that is not available or ridiculously expensive
> where it is most needed, or take at least a lane of street.

It's a lot easier to put a rail line below ground than it is a street;
you only put it at grade level (and thus consume land) where real estate
is cheap.

>>> Whether or not they might move "far more efficiently" (by undefined
>>> measure) by pipeline and/or rail is irrelevant.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> It's going to have to become pretty costly before they start laying
> rails to every retail outlet.

Trucks are fine for the "last mile" segment; the problem is when trucks
become a significant fraction of the entire trip.  Trucking a container
from LA to NYC makes no sense when you could put the container on a
train from LA to New Jersey and then truck it the last few miles into
NYC.  However, since the highway network is highly subsidized, whereas
the rail network is taxed, it may _appear_ cheaper to send the container
via truck.  That is economic inefficiency.  The truck also consumes more
fuel to make the trip, which means it's energy inefficiency as well.

S

Signature

Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Brent - 21 Nov 2009 22:40 GMT
> For instance, imagine that item X costs $1 if made in China or $8 if
> made in the US.  Imagine that item X costs $5 to transport from China
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> transportation costs, less pollution, more American jobs, a lower trade
> imbalance, etc.

Of course, but our wise rulers aren't really concerned about american
jobs.

>> Unless he likes to eat and prefers to not "farm", or live near
>> farms... where they move farmed goods from the fields in... trucks.

> Does it really make sense for us to be shipping produce several thousand
> miles across the country--or even from other continents--when we can
> grow the same crop a few dozen/hundred miles away?

It does when you consider that big agri-business has paid the elected
office holders considerable amounts of money to make sure the nearby
family farms can't compete with their crops from chile.

However at various times of the year the crop might not be available
locally but the crop grown elsewhere might. Out of season it would be
perfectally acceptable to pay the transportation costs to have it.

>>> OTOH, Subsidizing mass transit can reduce traffic congestion
>>
>> I guess it could, but I'm not familiar with anyone I think would
>> choose mass transit over driving unless it was among their last
>> options.

> That is the case in most US cities because development patterns
> (enforced by the government) are deliberately anti-transit.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> traffic, trying to find (extremely expensive) parking, etc. when the
> subway is faster, cheaper, and more convenient?

However that transit is subsidized by lots of people who don't use it.
That's how it becomes "cheap".  And even in cities like London a lot of
people still drive because even with the crushing costs and congestion
it's still works better for them. In a big city I would live close
enough to walk or bike most if not all year to avoid the hassles of
driving and transit.
Bolwerk - 22 Nov 2009 00:07 GMT
>> Ask someone from NYC or a non-US major world city like London or Paris,
>> though, and you'll get an entirely different answer.  Why would they
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> However that transit is subsidized by lots of people who don't use it.
> That's how it becomes "cheap".

The same way most roads become cheap, or free, rather, in many cases.
All transportation, save perhaps freight rail, is subsidized by "lots of
people who don't use it."

> And even in cities like London a lot of
> people still drive because even with the crushing costs and congestion
> it's still works better for them. In a big city I would live close
> enough to walk or bike most if not all year to avoid the hassles of
> driving and transit.

Even in NYC, there are plenty of examples of low-subsidy or even
slightly profitable transit.  MTA Bus, IIRC, turned a slight profit last
year.

The Subway system in 2007 covered its own operating costs to the tune of
around ~68%, which is similar to the highway system.  With fare hikes,
it should be closer to around 85% until labor costs catch up.

The egregious problems with U.S. public transportation come mostly from
intractable labor/union problems or poor regulation, which is why high
ridership/low frequency commuter rail still tend to be amongst the most
subsidized forms of public transportation.
Brent - 22 Nov 2009 01:46 GMT
>>> Ask someone from NYC or a non-US major world city like London or Paris,
>>> though, and you'll get an entirely different answer.  Why would they
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> All transportation, save perhaps freight rail, is subsidized by "lots of
> people who don't use it."

I've been over this before. The number of people who don't use roads and
who don't drive at all is vanishingly small. You can refund every last
penny in tax they pay for roads directly or indirectly and it wouldn't
change a thing.

>> And even in cities like London a lot of
>> people still drive because even with the crushing costs and congestion
>> it's still works better for them. In a big city I would live close
>> enough to walk or bike most if not all year to avoid the hassles of
>> driving and transit.

> Even in NYC, there are plenty of examples of low-subsidy or even
> slightly profitable transit.  MTA Bus, IIRC, turned a slight profit last
> year.

Profit defined how?

> The Subway system in 2007 covered its own operating costs to the tune of
> around ~68%, which is similar to the highway system.  With fare hikes,
> it should be closer to around 85% until labor costs catch up.

A private business would be out of business like that.

> The egregious problems with U.S. public transportation come mostly from
> intractable labor/union problems or poor regulation, which is why high
> ridership/low frequency commuter rail still tend to be amongst the most
> subsidized forms of public transportation.

Considering that most pro-transit types are also pro-labor-union for
private companies this strikes me as amusing.
jim - 22 Nov 2009 01:56 GMT
> I've been over this before. The number of people who don't use roads and
> who don't drive at all is vanishingly small. You can refund every last
> penny in tax they pay for roads directly or indirectly and it wouldn't
> change a thing.

So lets get this straight. Your reasoning  works like this:

    That 95% of taxpayers drive and use roads and therefore 95% of taxes
should be used for road construction. And since 95% of taxes are not
spent on roads it is your belief that tx money is being illegally
diverted to other purposes.

    Is that about right?

-jim

> >> And even in cities like London a lot of
> >> people still drive because even with the crushing costs and congestion
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Considering that most pro-transit types are also pro-labor-union for
> private companies this strikes me as amusing.
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 23 Nov 2009 15:01 GMT
>         That 95% of taxpayers drive and use roads and therefore 95% of taxes
> should be used for road construction. And since 95% of taxes are not
> spent on roads it is your belief that tx money is being illegally
> diverted to other purposes.

Some of my property taxes are used to subsidize transit.  But _more_
of my property taxes are used to subsidize the needs of highways.  The
gas tax doesn't cover all the costs.

Yes, transit is subsidized, but it is a miniscule percentage of the
taxes we pay; and people who don't live in service territories pay
less or none.

Roads are subsidized, too, from general taxes, much more than people
think.
Matthew Russotto - 22 Nov 2009 00:44 GMT
>For instance, imagine that item X costs $1 if made in China or $8 if
>made in the US.  Imagine that item X costs $5 to transport from China
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>transportation costs, less pollution, more American jobs, a lower trade
>imbalance, etc.

Since the stuff gets to the US by ship and not by truck, doubling
trucking costs will make the item $10 for the US item and $7 for the
Chinese item, not helping you.

>Does it really make sense for us to be shipping produce several thousand
>miles across the country--or even from other continents--when we can
>grow the same crop a few dozen/hundred miles away?

Yes, usually, in cases where it is done.

Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

Brent - 22 Nov 2009 02:01 GMT
>>For instance, imagine that item X costs $1 if made in China or $8 if
>>made in the US.  Imagine that item X costs $5 to transport from China
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> trucking costs will make the item $10 for the US item and $7 for the
> Chinese item, not helping you.

How much are the ports subsidized?  I found this article:

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19941230&slug=1949890

But it's 15 years old.
1100GS_rider - 23 Nov 2009 05:52 GMT
> Trucking a container
> from LA to NYC makes no sense when you could put the container on a
> train from LA to New Jersey and then truck it the last few miles into
> NYC.

Yes it does, when the train delivery time cannot be relied on.
Stephen Sprunk - 23 Nov 2009 08:06 GMT
>> Trucking a container from LA to NYC makes no sense when you could put
>> the container on a train from LA to New Jersey and then truck it the
>> last few miles into NYC.
>
> Yes it does, when the train delivery time cannot be relied on.

As many others on mtra have pointed out when I've made the same argument
in the past, that generally only applies to carload freight.
Containers, trailers, and unit trains are far more reliable because
they're much easier for the RRs to handle (and schedule).  Given that
UPS uses rail for long-haul of "ground" packages, it can't be _that_
bad.  It's not _fast_, but if you really care about speed, you'll ship
your freight via air--not trucks.

Yes, there are occasional problems, such as flooding wiping out a
bridge.  Trucks have similar, if not worse, problems with weather, and
air has it even worse.  The only truly catastrophic rail problem in
recent memory was the fiasco when UP took over SP's operations, but it
looks like the merger mania in the industry is over and they're quickly
building more capacity that will make problems like that easier to cope
with.

S

Signature

Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 11 Nov 2009 22:06 GMT
> Scammers always go after the cash. Democracy works by getting people to
> vote themselves money from the treasury. The political office holders
> just work the system.

So then run for office and make policies you want.  As mentioned
before, anyone can run for entry-level office.

> When transit is nearly entirely funded by people who don't use it, it is
> quite fair. Roads are funded almost entirely by people who use roads
> directly. Then there is all the tax revenue generated by automotive
> and trucking businesses.

Others have pointed out those statements are not true and provided
official figures to substantiate those claims.

> A fair direct cost scheme would mean a tax savings for drivers. But
> nobody is proposing a fair scheme because that would mean less money for
> government overall.

What's odd is that no one every proposed, now or in the past, that the
private sector build, run, and maintain major roads and crossings,
instead of the government.
Brent - 11 Nov 2009 22:56 GMT
>> Scammers always go after the cash. Democracy works by getting people to
>> vote themselves money from the treasury. The political office holders
>> just work the system.
>
> So then run for office and make policies you want.  As mentioned
> before, anyone can run for entry-level office.

So I have to go into a line of work which I am totally unsuited for and
would absolutely hate just to protect myself against those such as
yourself who see fit to use the political process to steal from
productive people?

>> When transit is nearly entirely funded by people who don't use it, it is
>> quite fair. Roads are funded almost entirely by people who use roads
>> directly. Then there is all the tax revenue generated by automotive
>> and trucking businesses.

> Others have pointed out those statements are not true and provided
> official figures to substantiate those claims.

LOL. pulled out of activist a.ses figures. Figures which ignore large
amounts of automotive based tax revenue and add in costs that are at
best wild a.s guesses and neglecting that the revenue generator of
traffic and parking fines.

>> A fair direct cost scheme would mean a tax savings for drivers. But
>> nobody is proposing a fair scheme because that would mean less money for
>> government overall.

> What's odd is that no one every proposed, now or in the past, that the
> private sector build, run, and maintain major roads and crossings,
> instead of the government.

you've been around r.a.d long enough to know that's false.
John S - 15 Nov 2009 03:46 GMT
>>>>> We need a USENET for roundabouts.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> tolls and the small minority of the highway trust fund that goes to fund
> transit is hardly fair.

Fascinating analysis.  By the way, the state of Massachusetts just found
that throwing 20% of the statewide sales tax to the MBTA transit system
just wasn't enough (on top of the property tax levies and general fund
levies and massive federal monies), so they just raised the sales tax by
25%.  Much or all of the increase is to fund the MBTA.
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 15 Nov 2009 04:08 GMT
> Fascinating analysis.  By the way, the state of Massachusetts just found
> that throwing 20% of the statewide sales tax to the MBTA transit system
> just wasn't enough (on top of the property tax levies and general fund
> levies and massive federal monies), so they just raised the sales tax by
> 25%.  Much or all of the increase is to fund the MBTA.

The MBTA gets 20% of all sales taxes collected in Massachusetts, and
property tax levies, and 'massive' federal monies?  Sure that's
accurate?

Geez, with all that, how did they pay for the Big Dig?
John S - 15 Nov 2009 04:32 GMT
>> Fascinating analysis.  By the way, the state of Massachusetts just found
>> that throwing 20% of the statewide sales tax to the MBTA transit system
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> property tax levies, and 'massive' federal monies?  Sure that's
> accurate?

No, the MBTA now gets over 30% of state sales tax with the recent
statewide tax increase.

> Geez, with all that, how did they pay for the Big Dig?

What made you think that it was paid off?
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 11 Nov 2009 22:12 GMT
> Two new light rail projects are moving forward, one in New Jersey, one
> in Philadelphia.  

Actually, they most certainly NOT are moving forward; they are merely
in the talking stage.  There is no money for them.

Odds are very high that they'll never be built.

> What do they have in common?  They will be funded by
> the Delaware River Port Authority.  Where does DRPA get its money?  From
> road bridge tolls.  Soak drivers, subsidize trains.  In this case, one
> of the trains will roll on top of the Market St Subway.  Why even build
> new routes when you can use bridge toll money to build transit systems
> right on top of existing ones?

There have been several posts right here about the DRPA and it's fund
diversions, as published in the newspaper.  Interestingly, at least
here no one had a word of objection about there.

> For other examples of such subsidies from drivers, look at the finances
> at nearly every transit system in the USA, exhibit A is New York City.

Speaking of New Jersey, it should be noted that while NJ has the
lowest gasoline taxes in the country, it has the highest property
taxes.  No surprise there because in NJ counties use that property tax
money to pay for a massive road network.  In other states those types
of roads would be state roads, paid for by the state.
Sancho Panza - 12 Nov 2009 01:16 GMT
> Speaking of New Jersey, it should be noted that while NJ has the
> lowest gasoline taxes in the country, it has the highest property
> taxes.  No surprise there because in NJ counties use that property tax
> money to pay for a massive road network.

Two-thirds of property taxes in New Jersey are for education. The remaining
one-third of property tax revenues is for all other county and municipal
functions, including law enforcement, public works, recreation, welfare and
so on and so on.

> In other states those types
> of roads would be state roads, paid for by the state.

In New Jersey, the  state pays for all state-designated roads. For county
and municipal roads, Trenton sends significant
grants, usually for what it considers major improvements.
Larry Sheldon - 12 Nov 2009 01:45 GMT
> In New Jersey, the  state pays for all state-designated roads. For
> county and municipal roads, Trenton sends significant
> grants, usually for what it considers major improvements.

ITYM "n New Jersey, the  state payers pay ... Trenton graBs taxpayERs
money which it sends ...'

Signature

Requiescas in pace o email              Two identifying characteristics
                                             of System Administrators:
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio        Infallibility, and the ability to
                                             learn from their mistakes.
Eppure si rinfresca

ICBM Targeting Information:
    http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs
    http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml

Matthew Russotto - 12 Nov 2009 01:20 GMT
>Speaking of New Jersey, it should be noted that while NJ has the
>lowest gasoline taxes in the country, it has the highest property
>taxes.  No surprise there because in NJ counties use that property tax
>money to pay for a massive road network.  In other states those types
>of roads would be state roads, paid for by the state.

Nice try. New Jerseys low gas tax is historically due to the large presence
of the petroleum industry in that state; taxes on that industry make
up for the lower gas tax.  It doesn't hurt that most of the major
highways in New Jersey -- the Turnpike, the Parkway, and the Atlantic
City Expressway -- are all toll roads.

Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 12 Nov 2009 02:08 GMT
On Nov 11, 8:20 pm, russo...@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto)
wrote:
> In article <03f7b726-1c09-4485-8b2b-7c9873b12...@d21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> highways in New Jersey -- the Turnpike, the Parkway, and the Atlantic
> City Expressway -- are all toll roads.

Except there are many freeways and Interstates in NJ that are not toll
roads.

If the petroleum industry contributes so much, why is the state broke?

Pennsylvania has oil refineries, too.  Why then does it have a higher
gas tax.
Matthew Russotto - 12 Nov 2009 02:10 GMT
>On Nov 11, 8:20=A0pm, russo...@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto)
>wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>Except there are many freeways and Interstates in NJ that are not toll
>roads.

Sure, there's I-295 in the northwest, and I-195 across the center.
But a rather large proportion of NJs major highways are toll.

>If the petroleum industry contributes so much, why is the state broke?

Because it spends like a drunken sailor, and not largely on roads.
Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 12 Nov 2009 17:42 GMT
On Nov 11, 9:10 pm, russo...@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto)
wrote:
> >Except there are many freeways and Interstates in NJ that are not toll
> >roads.
>
> Sure, there's I-295 in the northwest, and I-195 across the center.
> But a rather large proportion of NJs major highways are toll.

A very quick look at a road map of NJ shows:

I-80, I-287, I-280, I-78, free segment of GSP

NJ 15, NJ 21, NJ 3, NJ 18, NJ 42, NJ 55

Notably, many of these roads carry extremely high volumes of traffic.
John S - 15 Nov 2009 03:42 GMT
> On Nov 11, 9:10 pm, russo...@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto)
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Notably, many of these roads carry extremely high volumes of traffic.

Listing random route numbers is very interesting, but doesn't change the
fact that toll lanes make up a very high percentage of overall freeway
lane miles, relative to other states, which helps explain the points
made a few posts ago.
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 15 Nov 2009 04:05 GMT
> hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> > On Nov 11, 9:10 pm, russo...@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto)
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> lane miles, relative to other states, which helps explain the points
> made a few posts ago.

Is it really that high a percentage?  Quite a few lane miles are
free.  Further, the free express roads carry quite a bit of traffic.
The AC Expy is a busy road, but I don't think it comes up to the
traffic volums carried by I-80.

Don't forget there are segments of the GSP that are free.
John S - 15 Nov 2009 17:40 GMT
>> hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>> On Nov 11, 9:10 pm, russo...@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto)
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> free.  Further, the free express roads carry quite a bit of traffic.
> The AC Expy is a busy road,

So is the New Jersey Turnpike.

 but I don't think it comes up to the
> traffic volums carried by I-80.

Please read what I wrote once more, specifically the phrase "relative to
other states."   What state has a higher percentage of tolled lane miles
as a proportion of the total state freeway lane miles than New Jersey?

> Don't forget there are segments of the GSP that are free.

True, the vast majority of GSP lane miles are not free.
rshersh@gmail.com - 15 Nov 2009 22:32 GMT
> hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> >> hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> other states."   What state has a higher percentage of tolled lane miles
> as a proportion of the total state freeway lane miles than New Jersey?

and how many states have a lower state gas tax then NJ

due to those high percentage of tolled lanes????

why so oyu suppose that state gas tax stays as low as it does????
John S - 18 Nov 2009 03:45 GMT
>> hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>> hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> why so oyu suppose that state gas tax stays as low as it does????

If you would have read the earlier posts in the thread, you would have
known that gas tax had already been discussed...
Matthew Russotto - 21 Nov 2009 03:29 GMT
>why so oyu suppose that state gas tax stays as low as it does????

Asked and answered.

Signature

The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

Jishnu Mukerji - 12 Nov 2009 18:17 GMT
> Sure, there's I-295 in the northwest, and I-195 across the center.
> But a rather large proportion of NJs major highways are toll.

What about I-80, I-78 and I-287? Or do those not count as highways for
some reason?
Brent - 12 Nov 2009 03:09 GMT
> If the petroleum industry contributes so much, why is the state broke?

Um, because govenments tend to spend everything they can get and then
some. Any part of government that shows responsibility and doesn't spend
all it has every year risks having its budget cut next year or having
its surplus raided for other things. Look at road funds, saved up for
large expenses for things that last decades only to find the funds
raided.

In Chicago Daley and the skyway and the parking meters are prime
examples. Leased for 99 years with a lump sum payment and much of the
money is already spent with about 97 years to go on the leases. If the
money is there, they will spend it.
Jim Yanik - 10 Nov 2009 23:20 GMT
> .. On Nov 7, 2:59 pm, John David Galt <j...@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> Raising tolls or taxes to pay for needed roads is political suicide.

sorry,but EVERYBODY benefits from our road systems.

Signature

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 11 Nov 2009 02:40 GMT
> sorry,but EVERYBODY benefits from our road systems.

Everybody benefits from colleges.  Should colleges be free and covered
via taxes?
John David Galt - 10 Nov 2009 00:11 GMT
> [Excerpt from "Suburban Nation" by Andres Duany and Elizabeth
> Plater-Zybeck, pp. 94-7.]

Why do you keep quoting those progress-hating liars?
rshersh@gmail.com - 10 Nov 2009 01:21 GMT
On Nov 9, 7:11 pm, John David Galt <j...@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us>
wrote:
> > [Excerpt from "Suburban Nation" by Andres Duany and Elizabeth
> > Plater-Zybeck, pp. 94-7.]
>
> Why do you keep quoting those progress-hating liars?

this from the idiot that said the following:

tunnels should be built for freeways in SF

no matter the cost and earthquakes

brilliant

buy welfare recipients a car and shut down public transit

no matter that alot don't have dl's

and do you really want them driving on the public hwys

you are an idiot that represents the idiocy of the reason foundation
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.