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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / March 2005End of self-service gas in PA?
Guys, heads up: it was reported on KYW-3 CBS this morning that a democrat is trying to pass a law in Pennsylvania, similar to NJ and Oregon, where all gas stations will have to become full-service. He wants to do this to: 1) Safeguard the public from the dangers of gas 2) Create jobs (PA is 47th in the nation for new jobs) 3) Lower gas prices 4) Prevents bums from trying to solicit you to pump your gas Certain suburbs would be exempt from this law. > Guys, heads up: it was reported on KYW-3 CBS this morning that a > democrat is trying to pass a law in Pennsylvania, similar to NJ and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > 1) Safeguard the public from the dangers of gas Yes. Gasoline explosions is obviously a big problem. And the type of people who will be employed as station attendants will obviously be better suited to handle this. > 2) Create jobs (PA is 47th in the nation for new jobs) Shitty, non-educated, little value added jobs. > 3) Lower gas prices Huh??? > 4) Prevents bums from trying to solicit you to pump your gas Huh??? Jon [snip] >> 3) Lower gas prices > > Huh??? In NJ, which borders PA, gas is about $0.20 less per gallon! One reason is because full service costs less than self service, I think. Something to do with complex economics of the situation. I don't know the details. The unfortunate part is because of the full service rule, lots of BJ's Wholesale Clubs, Sam's Clubs, Costcos, Wal-Marts, and grocery stores do not have gas stations there! But in PA, many do. >> 4) Prevents bums from trying to solicit you to pump your gas > > Huh??? In Philadelphia, bums hang out at each gas station, and when you pull up, they try to get you to pay cash to them for allowing them to pump your gas! Seriously! The cashier is always locked behind a bullet-proof glass enclosure, and they don't pay attention to the bums. > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Something to do with complex economics of the situation. I don't know > the details. My guess is that it is due to taxes or some type of minimum mark-up law. I cannot think of any reason why higher costs would result in lower prices. Jon > > In NJ, which borders PA, gas is about $0.20 less per gallon! One > > reason is because full service costs less than self service, I think. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I cannot think of any reason why higher costs would result in lower > prices. NJ has very low gasoline taxes, surprisingly enough. It may also be that the insurance industry charges more to insure self-serve stations, but I doubt this. If it were so, there'd be more no-self-serve stations even without a mandate. > > > In NJ, which borders PA, gas is about $0.20 less per gallon! One > > > reason is because full service costs less than self service, I think. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > doubt this. If it were so, there'd be more no-self-serve stations even > without a mandate. Think about this: full-service stations usually require that you give them your ATM/Debit/Check/Credit card or cash in advance of the fill up, while many self-service stations don't or have fill-then-pay setups. Full-service stations, consequently, have a lower number of "drive offs" and lower rate of theft, hence lower losses, better service = more customers and lower prices...simple economics. > Think about this: full-service stations usually require that you give > them your ATM/Debit/Check/Credit card or cash in advance of the fill up, Never once was I asked for payment or card in advance of fillup during the years I lived in Oregon. > while many self-service stations don't or have fill-then-pay setups. > Full-service stations, consequently, have a lower number of "drive offs" > and lower rate of theft, hence lower losses, better service = more > customers and lower prices...simple economics. Simplistic guesses, more like. Never heard of this. With nearly every station I've been to in NJ, they fill you up, then you pay. With more stations using pay at the pump, they'll take your credit card first, just like any self-service pump. Full service stations have a lower number of driveoffs because the attendant is standing right there. Even most idiots and drunks know to pay a guy who's standing 2 feet away from you and your license plates. Usually, stations that have full service are far removed from stations with self service, so there aren't more customers - they're basically a captured market - and certainly not lower prices. > > > > In NJ, which borders PA, gas is about $0.20 less per gallon! One > > > > reason is because full service costs less than self service, I think. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > of theft, hence lower losses, better service = more customers and lower > prices...simple economics. If that were the case, there would be more full-service stations. It is simply a misguided attempt to create employment without understanding that it is crappy employment. Jon >Think about this: full-service stations usually require that you give them >your ATM/Debit/Check/Credit card or cash in advance of the fill up, while >many self-service stations don't or have fill-then-pay setups. Pre-pay has become more common at self-serve filling stations, at least in the lower price stations in California.  Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------ Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is provided with this message. On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:31:28 -0500, "JJK" <JJK@fakemail.com> >>> 3) Lower gas prices >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Wholesale Clubs, Sam's Clubs, Costcos, Wal-Marts, and grocery stores do not >have gas stations there! But in PA, many do. Which could actually mean a decrease in overall employment > The unfortunate part is because of the full service rule, lots of BJ's Wholesale Clubs, Sam's Clubs, Costcos, Wal-Marts, and grocery stores do not have gas stations there! But in PA, many do. Costco does have gasoline stations in Jersey. I use the one on Route 35. >In NJ, which borders PA, gas is about $0.20 less per gallon! Maybe taxes have something to do with that? Gas in Ashland, KY is always cheaper than in Kenova, WV, because WV has higher gas taxes. SignatureTo reply by e-mail, remove the "restrictor plate" > >In NJ, which borders PA, gas is about $0.20 less per gallon! > > Maybe taxes have something to do with that? > > Gas in Ashland, KY is always cheaper than in Kenova, WV, because WV has higher > gas taxes. Right you are. PA excise tax is 30 cents, NJ is only 14.5. Plus PA charges the station a "petroleum franchise fee" on its gross receipts. New Jersians have chosen to have statewide full-serve, forgoing some of their gas tax to cover the high costs of employing people in one of the most dead-headed jobs in existance. Personally, I don't see, with the country at full employment, this luxury being affordable much longer. IIRC, Ohio was full-serve only until about 1980 or so? BTW, WV is 27 cents plus 6% of the untaxed price, KY is 17. SP Cook >New Jersians have chosen to have statewide full-serve, forgoing some of >their gas tax to cover the high costs of employing people in one of the >most dead-headed jobs in existance. I'm in New Jersey and the stations I go to are basically two-person operations, with one person (or both) also being a mechanic and, I believe, the owner of the station. (So much for your "dead-headed job" comment.) Therefore, self-service wouldn't result in lower prices, because they'd still have the same number of employees. SignatureBob Scheurle | "There's nobody getting njtbob@X-verizon-X.net | rich writing software." Remove X's and dashes | -- Bill Gates, March 1980 > >New Jersians have chosen to have statewide full-serve, forgoing some of > >their gas tax to cover the high costs of employing people in one of the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > comment.) Therefore, self-service wouldn't result in lower prices, > because they'd still have the same number of employees. Disregarding his bone headed comment about the job, the owner can't be there 24/7, and you probably frequent the same stations during a specific time of day, therefore you never see the other employees. >> I'm in New Jersey and the stations I go to are basically two-person >> operations, with one person (or both) also being a mechanic and, I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >there 24/7, and you probably frequent the same stations during a >specific time of day, therefore you never see the other employees. First of all, they're not open 24/7. Second of all, I go to the station at 6:30 AM, 12 noon, 5 PM, and 8 PM, and I've never seen anyone other than the person I assume is the owner/mechanic and two other people. It appears to be a real mom-and-pop operation, and self-service would not result in lower costs. Besides, they're already 10c/gal cheaper than the big Shell station 1/2 mile away on the highway! SignatureBob Scheurle | "There's nobody getting njtbob@X-verizon-X.net | rich writing software." Remove X's and dashes | -- Bill Gates, March 1980 > > >In NJ, which borders PA, gas is about $0.20 less per gallon! > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > IIRC, Ohio was full-serve only until about 1980 or so? Sometime in the mid '70s. I lived there from '70 to '82 and the transitions happened about halfway through. The self serve pump was usually 2 to 3 cents cheaper per gallon than the full serve (back in the days when gas cost less than 75 cents per gallon). > BTW, WV is 27 cents plus 6% of the untaxed price, KY is 17. > > SP Cook --Andy -------------------------------------------------- Andrew G. Tompkins Software Engineer Beaverton, OR http://home.comcast.net/~andytom/Highways -------------------------------------------------- > New Jersians have chosen to have statewide full-serve, forgoing some of > their gas tax to cover the high costs of employing people in one of the > most dead-headed jobs in existance. Whoops, wait a second...I just asked everyone in NJ, including myself, and NO we never asked for statewide full service, NO thank you. It always has been forced on everyone here. We've tried to get rid of it many times, but government always works backwards, so it continues to infest us. Many times I can get in & out much faster if I was allowed to pump my own gas, but we have to wait for the gas jockey who is servicing a half dozen cars, processing credit cards, watching pumps, etc. GK > Personally, I don't see, with the country at full employment, this > luxury being affordable much longer. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > SP Cook > Many times I can get in & out much faster if I was allowed to pump my > own gas, but we have to wait for the gas jockey who is servicing a half > dozen cars, processing credit cards, watching pumps, etc. How would civil disobedience work out? I mean, unless the pumps need some special code for activation (even in the case of using a credit card at the pump), I can't see how they would stop you from pumping your own gas. > How would civil disobedience work out? I mean, unless the pumps need > some special code for activation (even in the case of using a credit > card at the pump), I can't see how they would stop you from pumping your > own gas. When I went to school in Oregon, I used to pump my own gas regularly. When the pump tards objected, I'd point out the Colorado license plate. This would usually confuse them long enough for me to finish pumping, pay and leave. Occasionally, though, I'd have to point to the competing station across the street and say "They don't have a problem with it over there. Would you prefer I take my money away and spend it over there instead?" >>How would civil disobedience work out? I mean, unless the pumps need >>some special code for activation (even in the case of using a credit [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > across the street and say "They don't have a problem with it over there. > Would you prefer I take my money away and spend it over there instead?" "pump tards" Must be nice to superior to everyone. Maybe getting all of that self pupmed gas on your hands will have an effect on you later. Full sevice creates jobs that wouldn't exist otherwise. It's pennies on your dollars and keeps a large amount of the uneducated and unemployabel off the streets and away from your tax supported welfare and unemployment. You either get to support your "pump tards" at the pump or in your check. > "pump tards" > > Must be nice to superior to everyone. Maybe getting all of that self > pupmed gas on your hands will have an effect on you later. I always see this argument (getting gas on your hands) cited by those who favor full serve. I don't know about you, but in the 15+ years I've been refuelling vehicles on my own, I've never had that happen to me. > Full sevice creates jobs that wouldn't exist otherwise. So does a Walmart. >> "pump tards" >> Must be nice to superior to everyone. Maybe getting all of that self [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I've been refuelling vehicles on my own, I've never had that happen to > me. Absolutely. And you seldom hear about getting gas in you feet (and shoes) which is far more likely and common. >> Full sevice creates jobs that wouldn't exist otherwise. > > So does a Walmart. For that matter let's ban restaurant with counter-only service and require table service. After all this would create jobs and hot food is quite dangerous too! SignatureIgnasi. (using SPAM trap e-mail address) > > When I went to school in Oregon, I used to pump my own gas regularly. > > When the pump tards objected, I'd point out the Colorado license [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > with it over there. Would you prefer I take my money away and spend it > > over there instead?" > "pump tards" Yep. Pump tards. Did I type too fast for you? > Must be nice to superior to everyone. Must be nice not to verbs. > Maybe getting all of that self pupmed gas on your hands will have an > effect on you later. I've been pumping my own motor and lawnmower fuel for many years, and haven't gotten gas on my hands. But let's take your argument, such as it is, to its logical end: You're saying it's better to let certain designated individuals get gas on their hands again and again and again, while the public at large gets to keep their hands virginally gasoline-free. Sounds a lot like you're advocating for certain individuals to be inferior to the public at large. But wait, that can't be, 'cause you opened your post with a halfassed attempt at shrilly assuming that's what I was doing. > Full sevice creates jobs that wouldn't exist otherwise. So would banning picking up after your own dog, and instead hiring people to stand around in public parks with trash bags in hand, waiting to scoop up dog poop as soon as it's deposited. So banning self-serve fast food, and instead hiring table waiters at McDonalds. So would banning in-stall flush levers, and instead hiring people to flush public toilets after they'd been used and vacated. So would banning direct fare deposit, and instead hiring people to take your subway token from you and deposit it in the turnstile. So would banning driver use of certain vehicle controls, and instead hiring people to reach through your open car window and put on the turn signal as you waited for the light to change. So would banning drivers from checking or adjusting their tires' air pressure, and instead hiring people to do it for them. In every one of these cases, flimsy and putatively safety-based rationale could be constructed to match the flimsy rationale for banning self-serve gasoline. But we don't do ANY of those things, nor thousands of other comparable things. Voila. > It's pennies on your dollars and keeps a large amount of the uneducated > and unemployabel off the streets and away from your tax supported > welfare and unemployment. I do not allow the uneducated and unemployable to touch my car. Play again? Y/n >> Must be nice to superior to everyone. > > Must be nice not to verbs. HA-ha!! >>> Must be nice to superior to everyone. >> Must be nice not to verbs. > HA-ha!! *smirk* >>>>Must be nice to superior to everyone. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > *smirk* Okay...bad sentence structure. I just don't see the need to remove paying jobs. It will not lower gas prices. The station owners wouldn't transfer the savings in reduced labor to the consumer. We have a unique situation in Philly. Pennsylvania has self-service and New Jersey has full-service. On the New Jersey side of every bridge there are numerous gas stations...always full of cars. On the PA side there are very few and those that do exist are either in disrepair or lack any additional service (like window washing stations or even functional air pumps) Gas is cheaper in NJ and (yes the taxes are lower) they have always been lower. I just don't see why so many people in this newsgroup/s flip out over full service. I guess they want to see more unemployed and less service. If you cap wasn't put on correctly...that's a valid complaint. The amount of times that happened to me...zero. 5> Must be nice to superior to everyone. 4> Must be nice not to verbs. 3> HA-ha!! 2> *smirk* > Okay...bad sentence structure. Not really. The sentence would've been fine had you not left out necessary bits. > I just don't see the need to remove paying jobs. One cannot remove what does not currently exist. > We have a unique situation in Philly. Pennsylvania has self-service and > New Jersey has full-service. No, Pennsylvania has self-serve and New Jersey does not. > Gas is cheaper in NJ Because the taxes are lower, not because self-serve is banned. > I just don't see why so many people in this newsgroup/s flip out over > full service. "Full Service", as has been explained to you many times, does not exist. What New Jersey has is a ban on self service. As for why people don't like it, well, "ill", there are lots of reasons. It's slower. Gas caps get lost or misapplied (or stolen, at those stations where part of the "full" range of services is new gas caps for sale). Gas gets sloshed on the car. The wrong grade of gas gets pumped. The wrong amount of gas gets pumped. > If you cap wasn't put on correctly...that's a valid complaint. The > amount of times that happened to me...zero. Ah. *You've* never seen it, so you have decided it must never happen. Idiot. >> Gas is cheaper in NJ > >Because the taxes are lower, not because self-serve is banned. But for self-service, we'd be paying the same amount as we do now. i.e., self-service wouldn't cost less, full-service would cost more! >It's slower. Not in my experience. >Gas caps get lost or misapplied (or stolen, at those stations where part >of the "full" range of services is new gas caps for sale). Never heard of that one in 30 years of driving. >Gas gets sloshed on the car. Not at the stations I go to. >The wrong grade of gas gets pumped. Only happened to me twice in 30 years. Each time I told the management about it and never went back to that station again. I'm sure I've been ripped-off by supermarket scanners more often. Maybe we should ban them, using your logic. >The wrong amount of gas gets pumped. Never happened to me. Anyway, I have nothing against self-service. But only if the full-service and self-service prices are required to be the same. SignatureBob Scheurle | "There's nobody getting njtbob@X-verizon-X.net | rich writing software." Remove X's and dashes | -- Bill Gates, March 1980 > >> Gas is cheaper in NJ > >Because the taxes are lower, not because self-serve is banned. > But for self-service, we'd be paying the same amount as we do now ...and you'd still have cheaper gas than the states surrounding you, ergo no reason to bitch. > Anyway, I have nothing against self-service. But only if the > full-service and self-service prices are required to be the same. Ah, so if you can't force businesses to bend to your will one way, you want to force them to bend to your will another way. At least you're halfway forthright about what you are. >> But for self-service, we'd be paying the same amount as we do now > >...and you'd still have cheaper gas than the states surrounding you, ergo >no reason to bitch. No plenty of reason to bitch -- We be paying the same money for less! >> Anyway, I have nothing against self-service. But only if the >> full-service and self-service prices are required to be the same. > >Ah, so if you can't force businesses to bend to your will one way, you >want to force them to bend to your will another way. I'm not forcing businesses to do anything. I just think that full service should be required to be available during all station operating hours and at the same price as self-service. >At least you're halfway forthright about what you are. SignatureBob Scheurle | "There's nobody getting njtbob@X-verizon-X.net | rich writing software." Remove X's and dashes | -- Bill Gates, March 1980 In phl.media Bob Scheurle <njtbob@x-verizon-x.net> wrote: :>Ah, so if you can't force businesses to bend to your will one way, you :>want to force them to bend to your will another way. : I'm not forcing businesses to do anything. I just think that full ^^^^^^^ : service should be required to be available during all station operating ^^^^^^^^ : hours and at the same price as self-service. Didn't you notice that these two sentences are contractory? SignatureBruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us root@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 > In phl.media Bob Scheurle <njtbob@x-verizon-x.net> wrote: > :>Ah, so if you can't force businesses to bend to your will one way, you [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Didn't you notice that these two sentences are contractory? Shouldn't businesses be free to not pump gas? Signaturehttp://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/guides/guide-display/- /WTZZDHIOXEVN/002-2233898-3852059 http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6337.htm > >Ah, so if you can't force businesses to bend to your will one way, you > >want to force them to bend to your will another way. > I'm not forcing businesses to do anything. I just think that full ^^^^^^^ > service should be required to be available during all station operating ^^^^^^^^ > hours and at the same price as self-service. QED. >> >Ah, so if you can't force businesses to bend to your will one way, you >> >want to force them to bend to your will another way. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >QED. So somehow I personally have the power to force businesses to do or not do certain things? I'm flattered that you think I have so much influence. SignatureBob Scheurle | "There's nobody getting njtbob@X-verizon-X.net | rich writing software." Remove X's and dashes | -- Bill Gates, March 1980 > >> >Ah, so if you can't force businesses to bend to your will one way, you > >> >want to force them to bend to your will another way. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > do certain things? I'm flattered that you think I have so much > influence. Your reading comprehension is poor. I observed that you *want* to force businesses to operate according to your will. That does not imply that you have the *ability* to do so. >Your reading comprehension is poor. I observed that you *want* to force >businesses to operate according to your will. That does not imply that you >have the *ability* to do so. No, I think that IF self-service is permitted, the NJ LEGISLATURE should require the self and full prices to be the same. Are we done now? Please take some comprehension classes yourself, instead of reading things into my post that I did not write. SignatureBob Scheurle | "There's nobody getting njtbob@X-verizon-X.net | rich writing software." Remove X's and dashes | -- Bill Gates, March 1980 On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 01:44:55 GMT, Bob Scheurle <njtbob@X-verizon-X.net> >>The wrong grade of gas gets pumped. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I'm sure I've been ripped-off by supermarket scanners more often. Maybe >we should ban them, using your logic. He's not arguing that full service should be banned, just that it shouldn't be mandatory. Would you support a law mandating supermarket scanners? (It seems the free market has effectively done that anyway) >"pump tards" > >Must be nice to superior to everyone. Oh PUH-LEEZE. How difficult is it to be superior to some loser who can't land a better job than pumping gas? >Maybe getting all of that self >pupmed gas on your hands will have an effect on you later. Wishful thinking on your part. I pump my own gas several times a week, and I can't even recall the last time I got any of it on my hands (or even on the side of my car). >Full sevice creates jobs that wouldn't exist otherwise. It's pennies on >your dollars and keeps a large amount of the uneducated and unemployabel >off the streets and away from your tax supported welfare and unemployment. Bullshit. Nobody can make a living off of a pump tard's wages, so your taxes are still supporting them. SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ >When I went to school in Oregon, I used to pump my own gas regularly. When >the pump tards objected, I'd point out the Colorado license plate. This >would usually confuse them long enough for me to finish pumping, pay and >leave. Occasionally, though, I'd have to point to the competing station >across the street and say "They don't have a problem with it over there. >Would you prefer I take my money away and spend it over there instead?" This would have absolutely no effect on the typical minimum-wage baggy-pants pimple-faced teenage punk who works at the gas station. In his mind, there is no connection between the way he treats customers and the success of his business (or even the fact that he has a job at all); if you go across the street, that's just less work for him to do, so he's more than happy to see you go. SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ Scott en Aztlán wrote: > if you go across the street, that's just less work for him to > do, so he's more than happy to see you go. Then why wouldn't he be happy about you reducing his workload by pumping your own gas? >> if you go across the street, that's just less work for him to >> do, so he's more than happy to see you go. > > Then why wouldn't he be happy about you reducing his workload by pumping > your own gas? Because that is his little "area of control" I always try to enter Oregon with a full tank, when I visit, because I had many bad experiences with gas jockeys when I used to live there. The gas cap may or may not be put on correctly, you may or may not have gas dribbling down the side of your car, if you want it filled up, and you have a weird bend in the filler neck, forget it. If the pump shuts it off, they won't try to fill it. My Scout has a bend in the filler neck so that you have to hold the gas filler valve upside down while pumping, or it will shut off after about a gallon. Do you think your average "unemployable" person can figure that one out? I prefer to control the fuel flowing into my car, thanks. Bernard >> if you go across the street, that's just less work for him to >> do, so he's more than happy to see you go. > >Then why wouldn't he be happy about you reducing his workload by pumping >your own gas? We all know that droids have extreme difficulty operating outside the bounds of their original programming. For proof of this, just watch what happens to the typical droid when the register is broken and they suddenly have to figure out how to make change on their own. This pump tard was probably afraid of getting in trouble if somebody saw him letting a customer pump his own gas. SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ >Whoops, wait a second...I just asked everyone in NJ, including myself, >and NO we never asked for statewide full service, NO thank you. It >always has been forced on everyone here. We've tried to get rid of it >many times, but government always works backwards, so it continues to >infest us. Wrong. It's the Big Oil companies who want self-service, because it would mean higher profits for them. The government is protecting the consumers and the mom-and-pop station owners; both groups would lose money under self-service. >Many times I can get in & out much faster if I was allowed to pump my >own gas, but we have to wait for the gas jockey who is servicing a half >dozen cars, processing credit cards, watching pumps, etc. Then you're going to the wrong stations. Give your business to stations that provide better service. Become a regular customer and be friendly with the people there - Not only will you get faster service, they'll probably even let you pump your own gas. I get faster service at the full-service stations in NJ that I frequent than at the self-service stations in NY. By the time I would have gotten my seatbelt off and out of my car to pump my own gas in the lousy weather, the attendant has the nozzle in my car and has started pumping the gas. SignatureBob Scheurle | "There's nobody getting njtbob@X-verizon-X.net | rich writing software." Remove X's and dashes | -- Bill Gates, March 1980 > Wrong. It's the Big Oil companies who want self-service, because it > would mean higher profits for them. The government is protecting the > consumers and the mom-and-pop station owners; both groups would lose > money under self-service. Umm, 99.9% of gasoline is retailed by businesses other than "the big oil companies". Big oil companies sell gasoline at wholesale to the stations, and really could care less how the retailer sells the products. That is one of the problems with living in a conspiracy theorist world, most of the theories are so half-baked that they gets punched through easily. SP Cook On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:00:09 GMT, Bob Scheurle <njtbob@X-verizon-X.net> >I get faster service at the full-service stations in NJ that I frequent >than at the self-service stations in NY. By the time I would have gotten >my seatbelt off and out of my car to pump my own gas in the lousy >weather, the attendant has the nozzle in my car and has started pumping >the gas. You're kidding, right? All you have to do is put it in park, release your seatbelt, open the door and step out - that should take all of about 3 seconds. > In NJ, which borders PA, gas is about $0.20 less per gallon! One reason is > because full service costs less than self service, I think. Something to do > with complex economics of the situation. I don't know the details. Probably because NJ has lower taxes. If full serve was really cheaper, stations would do it without a requirement. I'd pay more for self-service to save on repainting costs. Sounds like voodoo economics to me. Bush must be behind this. > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > The cashier is always locked behind a bullet-proof glass enclosure, and they > don't pay attention to the bums. SignatureThe Major "They're taking me to Marakesh." > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > because full service costs less than self service, I think. Something to do > with complex economics of the situation. I don't know the details. Gas is more expensive in PA beacuse of the tax that goes to PENNDOT pay for the "wonderfull" road infrastructure we have in PA. Makes you wonder how any organization can actually waste that much money. Mark > Guys, heads up: it was reported on KYW-3 CBS this morning that a > democrat is trying to pass a law in Pennsylvania, similar to NJ and > Oregon, where all gas stations will have to become full-service. I doubt it. I bet he's trying to ban self-serve gasoline. It's different. "An employee has to pump the gas" is not the same as "full serve". Full service means your oil and underhood fluids are checked and topped up, your tire pressures are checked and corrected, your windshield wipers are inspected and your windows, lights and mirrors are cleaned. > He wants to do this to: > 1) Safeguard the public from the dangers of gas Right, 'cause the public is doing *such* an inept and dangerous job of fuelling their own vehicles...and the types of people who'll hold gas jockey jobs are *so* much more attuned to safety. > 2) Create jobs (PA is 47th in the nation for new jobs) I can see the daytime TV ads now: "Are you looking for an exciting, fast-moving, rewarding and challenging career? Call Cheltenham Gas Jockey College TODAY!". > 3) Lower gas prices Not. > 4) Prevents bums from trying to solicit you to pump your gas I'm sure there are already panhandling or harrassment laws already on the books that could be used to solve that problem. > Certain suburbs would be exempt from this law. Including, no doubt, this particular lawmaker's own home suburb. Because members of the public are *so* much safer in the suburbs. What a joke. DS >>Guys, heads up: it was reported on KYW-3 CBS this morning that a >>democrat is trying to pass a law in Pennsylvania, similar to NJ and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > your tire pressures are checked and corrected, your windshield wipers are > inspected and your windows, lights and mirrors are cleaned. That's correct. In Oregon, stations say they offer "Mini" service, not full service. SignatureRobert I. Cruickshank roadgeek, historian, progressive On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:31:16 -0500, "Daniel J. Stern" <dastern@127.0.0.1> >> 4) Prevents bums from trying to solicit you to pump your gas > >I'm sure there are already panhandling or harrassment laws already on the >books that could be used to solve that problem. How about simple trespassing? Consumers stop going to stations where they are harassed in this manner. Stations start calling the cops if the bums don't leave - consumers return. > On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:31:16 -0500, "Daniel J. Stern" > <dastern@127.0.0.1> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Stations start calling the cops if the bums don't leave - consumers > return. You've never been to a city ...huh? > I doubt it. I bet he's trying to ban self-serve gasoline. It's different. > "An employee has to pump the gas" is not the same as "full serve". Full > service means your oil and underhood fluids are checked and topped up, > your tire pressures are checked and corrected, your windshield wipers are > inspected and your windows, lights and mirrors are cleaned. Just like the scene from "Back to the future" when Marty saw how a gas station worked in 1955 Here in Quebec, "full-service" stations had became more rare and scarce than before, thanks to various former gas stations who closed and the coming of stores with gas stations like Irving, Couche-Tard, etc... > DS St?phane Dumas > Guys, heads up: it was reported on KYW-3 CBS this morning that a democrat is > trying to pass a law in Pennsylvania, similar to NJ and Oregon, where all [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > 1) Safeguard the public from the dangers of gas Is it really that dangerous to pump gas? Maybe if people would pay attention to what they were doing, instead of jabbering on a cell phone while doing it, or nursing a kid while pumping gas (I've seen both), and get this... NOT SMOKE while pumping gas, then we would all be a lot safer. Just how many 'accidents' a year are a result of people pumping gas? Hardly any. Now if we could just take out all the idiots of the world... > 2) Create jobs (PA is 47th in the nation for new jobs) Oh yes! Low paying, minimum wage jobs that add NOTHING to the value of society! What culture there is in working at a gas station pumping gas! What excitement! What joy and rapture! > 3) Lower gas prices No, increased gas prices. NJ's taxing scheme is different than other states and can offer lower gas prices than other neighboring states. But compared to gas prices, in say.. Kentucky or West Virginia, New Jersey is much more expensive. I don't know where you are getting this false "lower gas prices" bit from. It's like saying gas on the New Jersey Turnpike is cheaper. > 4) Prevents bums from trying to solicit you to pump your gas Well, I surmise that since New Jersey has such a big "bum" issue, then it is obviously an issue for every other community in the United States. I also assume that "bums" are going to be at the local country market and gas station just WANTING to pump your gas. Easy way to solve that is to knock them in the head with the gas pump and drag them out of the way... > Certain suburbs would be exempt from this law. Suburban envrionments are just as dangerous as urban cores. I cited crime rate statistics from official reports in a prior post. > > 1) Safeguard the public from the dangers of gas Thats a bunch of crap. Does PA need to be spoon fed now like NJ is with full serve? > > 2) Create jobs (PA is 47th in the nation for new jobs) Job creation for teenagers and more dead end jobs, is that the best PA can come up with? > > 3) Lower gas prices Gas stations in NJ always tell me that when full service applys to a gas station, their insurance on running the gas station is much lower and as a result, gas prices could lower due to the gas stations paying less maintaining their establishment. But on the flipside, you have to pay the attendants at or above minimum wage to pump gas. This is something we'll have to find out if PA goes full service. As of Dec 03: http://www.taxfoundation.org/variousrates.html PA: 12 cents NJ: 10.5 cents > > 4) Prevents bums from trying to solicit you to pump your gas Based on my Philadelphia expereinces.. this could be the best thing for Philadelphia to reduce crime from solicitation > > Certain suburbs would be exempt from this law. AWSOME! Townships in PA have enough ordinances, why not add more! >As of Dec 03: http://www.taxfoundation.org/variousrates.html >PA: 12 cents >NJ: 10.5 cents Not even close. PA's gasoline tax is 31.1 cents/gallon, plus 1.1 c/gal for gasoline going into underground storage tanks. NJ's gasoline tax is 14.5 cents/gallon. SignatureBob Scheurle | "There's nobody getting njtbob@X-verizon-X.net | rich writing software." Remove X's and dashes | -- Bill Gates, March 1980 And why are NJ and PA's gas numbers in red italic? At least in NJ, the gas tax hasn't changed in years. This democrat certainly hasn't looked up why NJ is lower than PA. It's mainly due to the tax issue, not because we're full service. Can he explain why full service at self serve gas stations cost more? If full service was cheaper - wouldn't it cost less already? He could make Philadelphia itself a full service city, rather than the whole state. Morrisville, PA is a township that does not permit self service, so maybe it should be made a city issue, not a state issue. And as for someone's NJ Turnpike comment - on average, the price on the turnpike may only be 2 cents higher than the average of a specific sample of 100 stations around the state. Often times, you can find stations at the same price or more expensive than the Turnpike. And those gas lines at the last service area near Exit 1 - people know - cross into DE and MD, and you'll be paying about 20 cents more a gallon. Comeon, Morrisville has ONE gas station with two pumps....alot different that the City... > He could make Philadelphia itself a full service city, rather than the > whole state. Morrisville, PA is a township that does not permit self [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > cross into DE and MD, and you'll be paying about 20 cents more a > gallon. U thinking the same Morrisville I'm thinking of? Getty on Bridge St., a BP, Exxon, Mobil, and others on Trenton Ave., plus probably a few more I'm not aware of. All have more than 2 pumps. You probably have no clue where Morrisville is. Ha - I doubt you could even find PA on a map. The gas stations on Trenton avenue are not in Morrisville, they are in Falls Township. Morrisville limits END just before Trenton Avenue, except when from N Lafayette till the Calhoon St bridge. As I said, the only one in Morrisville is the one on Bridge Street. I have plenty of clues where Morrisville is- I probably know the area better than anyone. > U thinking the same Morrisville I'm thinking of? Getty on Bridge St., > a BP, Exxon, Mobil, and others on Trenton Ave., plus probably a few > more I'm not aware of. All have more than 2 pumps. > > You probably have no clue where Morrisville is. Ha - I doubt you could > even find PA on a map. The city of Pittsburgh tried passing such a proposal a few years a go and it got shot down in a heart beat. If it wouldn't fly here, it'll never happen state wide. : Well, I surmise that since New Jersey has such a big "bum" issue, then : it is obviously an issue for every other community in the United : States. I also assume that "bums" are going to be at the local country : market and gas station just WANTING to pump your gas. Easy way to solve : that is to knock them in the head with the gas pump and drag them out : of the way... The only bums i've seen at gas stations here are the brain-dead rejects pumping my gas. I hate them so much. I'd pay more to pump my own. >>2) Create jobs (PA is 47th in the nation for new jobs) > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > ' Unemployment causes crime.... Walmart is the #1 employer in PA....guess that's considered joy and rapture? BTW...this will not happen..ever... > > 3) Lower gas prices > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > false "lower gas prices" bit from. It's like saying gas on the New > Jersey Turnpike is cheaper. I definitely agree that gas on the NJ Turnpike is not cheaper, but the WV-NJ comparison is wrong, at least compared to where I used to live in WV. I lived near Clarksburg, WV and my parents pay much more than I do in NJ. I get gas in Pennsville, NJ and I paid $1.68 for regular yesterday. In that area of WV they pay $1.89. Certainly, the Turnpike is not expensive either. At the most, its what.. 5 cents more? The NJ turnpike is dirt cheap compared to the Thruway and Penna Turnpike. > Guys, heads up: it was reported on KYW-3 CBS this morning that a democrat is > trying to pass a law in Pennsylvania, similar to NJ and Oregon, where all [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Certain suburbs would be exempt from this law. Why are the suburbs exempt???? > Guys, heads up: it was reported on KYW-3 CBS this morning that a democrat is > trying to pass a law in Pennsylvania, similar to NJ and Oregon, where all > gas stations will have to become full-service. Are you sure about this? I couldn't find it on KYW's Web site or on Google News. SignatureD.F. Manno dfm2a3l0t2@spymac.com "The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dream will never die." >> Guys, heads up: it was reported on KYW-3 CBS this morning that a democrat >> is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Are you sure about this? I couldn't find it on KYW's Web site or on > Google News. Yes, certain. I could not find it either on google or KYW, but they had it on their morning newscasts repeatedly, from 5 AM to 7 AM. I believe the person sponsoring the bill was an African American, and he was democrat. As for why certain suburbs would be exempt, it was because they either do not need the jobs, or they don't have problems with people panhandling at gas stations. > > Are you sure about this? I couldn't find it on KYW's Web site or on > > Google News. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the person sponsoring the bill was an African American, and he was > democrat. +--------------------------------------+ \ 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 / \ \ 1 9 / \ 0 \ 10 / \ \ TROLL-O-METER / \ \ / \ \ / \___\______________________/ \ / \....................../ On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 10:28:20 -0500, "Daniel J. Stern" <dastern@127.0.0.1> >> > Are you sure about this? I couldn't find it on KYW's Web site or on >> > Google News. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > \ / > \....................../ This doesn't mention his color or his party, nor does it mention panhandlers, but it does mention who introduced the bill: Peter Daley http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05056/462550.stm According to this page, he is in fact a Democrat, but he looks white to me: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/home/member_information/house_bio.cfm? districtnumber=49 Here's another news source: http://www.pennlive.com/news/patriotnews/index.ssf?/base/news/110906775944580.xml >3) Lower gas prices How would banning self-serve *lower* prices? Seems to me it would increase them by requiring food marts to hire pumpers. SignatureTo reply by e-mail, remove the "restrictor plate" > He wants to do this to: > > 1) Safeguard the public from the dangers of gas 2) Create jobs (PA is 47th > in the nation for new jobs) 3) Lower gas prices > 4) Prevents bums from trying to solicit you to pump your gas I don't get it. How would having to pay another employee LOWER gas prices? Wait, I just had a blinding flash of the obvious. I would not want braindead rejects anywhere near my car. > Guys, heads up: it was reported on KYW-3 CBS this morning that a democrat is > trying to pass a law in Pennsylvania, similar to NJ and Oregon, where all [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Certain suburbs would be exempt from this law. I live in NJ and the dumbasses who pump gas very rarely put my gas cap on correctly (maybe 1 in 20 times). They usually have one tang in the filler neck and one not in it, then turn it. This lets a lot of gas spill out the filler neck. Sometimes the dumbasses are smart enough to at least put both tangs in the filler neck, but only turn it partway, so it is not sealed as tightly as it should be. Depending on how lazy the dumbasses are gas may or may not spill out of the filler neck. I now check my gas cap every time I get gas. I either check it at the station, or when I arrive at my next destination, depending on if I'm in a hurry and if I went to a gas station I know is good about putting the gas cap on correctly. The guys at the big stations around here don't seem to have a clue and don't give a damn. The little arab kid (maybe 15) at a no-name Garden State Gas or some such cheapo place always seems to put the cap on properly. When there was a Shell station right up the street that only hired older white guys (30s and up). I imagine they all worked on the cars to some degree, be it oil changes, lot attendants, or wahtever (was a pretty busy privately owned repair shop too). The one guy was even attentive and nice enough to let me know that my gas cap did not fit tightly (rubber was worn so it didn't seal up tightly). Also, 95% of the time they closed to gas filler door gently. Every other place slams to door shut (good thing the rubber bumpers are in good shape). Anyhow, I much prefer to pump my own gas. I know it's done right and I have nothing to worry about. I also don't have to wait around for some pump jockey to take my order. I don't have to watch to be sure he's actually putting 93 octane in the tank (once I didn't check and I got half a tank of 87 before I realized what was happening. I paid for the 87 and then went to Sunoco to fill the rest with Ultra 94 octane... The ol' 11:1 302 didn't like that tank of gas very much). When I travel it's nice to pump my own gas. It seems many places require you to pay first (cash or card). I remember those places and avoid them when possible, particularly if I'm paying cash. I just don't like it. It's a big sign of distrust and plain inconvenient if I gotta pre-pay with cash. Anyhow, I don't like "full-serve". I use quotes because to even get my window washed I have to ask, and even then don't always get it. I'll just get out and wash my own windshield if I want it cleaned. it's not worth trying to communicate with someone who doesn't know a lick of English and takes a while to figure out how much money I gave him and how much change I need back (sometimes I gotta tell them how much and handle the money for them). >They usually have one tang in the filler >neck and one not in it, then turn it. This lets a lot of gas spill out the >filler neck. >Sometimes the dumbasses are smart enough to at least put both tangs in the >filler neck, but only turn it partway, so it is not sealed as tightly as it >should be. Depending on how lazy the dumbasses are gas may or may not spill >out of the filler neck. Ahhh Tang! That's the problem my friend... Tang. You see, you should request gasoline, not Tang. Tang is what the astronauts took to the moon, not what your vehicle's engine utilizes for combustion. Try 94 ocTANE not 94 ocTANG! By requesting the right fuel, perhaps your "ol' 11:1 302" will enjoy it more. ....or something.... - Opinionated a.shole > I live in NJ and the dumbasses who pump gas very rarely put my gas cap on > correctly (maybe 1 in 20 times). They usually have one tang in the filler > neck and one not in it, then turn it. This lets a lot of gas spill out the > filler neck. (list of filling station gripes deleted) Around here--Cambridge and Somerville, MA--the cheapest gas is at the no-name full-serve stations. My gas filler is on the right hand side, and my own particular annoyance is filling station attendants who don't walk around to the driver's side window to converse with me, make change, etc. My car doesn't have power windows--it's a Saturn Ion I inherited from my late mother who didn't see a need for all the gewgaws on modern cars. Rolling down the passenger side window is tehrefore somewhat of a PITA. SignatureBikerGeek <bikergeek@speakeasy.net> Distinctive, adj.: A different color or shape than our competitors. >>Guys, heads up: it was reported on KYW-3 CBS this morning that a democrat > [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > need back (sometimes I gotta tell them how much and handle the money for > them). Interestingly enough, for all this talk of full-service or a ban on self-serve gasoline in New Jersey, the law doesn't apply to diesel fuel for heavy trucks. Truckers get to pump their own diesel fuel in NJ, just like anywhere else ... SignatureLarry Harvilla E-mail: roads AT phatpage DOT org also visit: http://www.phatpage.org/ Highways section in progress. On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:05:06 -0500, Larry Harvilla <roads@phatpage.org> >Interestingly enough, for all this talk of full-service or a ban on >self-serve gasoline in New Jersey, the law doesn't apply to diesel fuel >for heavy trucks. Truckers get to pump their own diesel fuel in NJ, just >like anywhere else ... Truckers have a lobby. > On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:05:06 -0500, Larry Harvilla <roads@phatpage.org> > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Truckers have a lobby. Yes, but so do drivers: AAA or CAA > > Truckers have a lobby. > > Yes, but so do drivers: AAA or CAA Yes, drivers do have a lobby. But its is not the INSURANCE COMPANY called AAA/CAA. It lobbies for its own interests, which is mostly lower speed limits so more drivers will be caught in the ticket trap will pay higher rates, despite being safe and fast drivers. The ONLY lobby for motorists intersts is the National Motorists Association. www.motorists.com JOIN TODAY. SP Cook > Guys, heads up: it was reported on KYW-3 CBS this morning that a democrat > is trying to pass a law in Pennsylvania, similar to NJ and Oregon, where [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Certain suburbs would be exempt from this law. It's finally made the news. http://www.pennlive.com/news/patriotnews/index.ssf?/base/news/110906775944580.xml Regarding New Jersey, here's part of a news article from 2002: | Small retailers are "vehemently" opposed to introducing self service, | contending that full service keeps them competitive with large companies, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] | [full-service stations] and run them as company operations and have all | the profits go to them." And here's a funny article: http://www.parkwayreststop.com/archives/000379.html SignatureBob Scheurle | "There's nobody getting njtbob@X-verizon-X.net | rich writing software." Remove X's and dashes | -- Bill Gates, March 1980 |
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