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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / March 2005

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Congress Paving the Way for Tolls on Interstates

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MrPepper11 - 10 Mar 2005 22:32 GMT
Los Angeles Times
March 10, 2005

Congress Paving the Way for Tolls on Interstates
Legislation backed by the Bush administration would let states charge
drivers fees to fund new highways or to reduce rush-hour traffic.
By Richard Simon, Times Staff Writer

WASHINGTON - With traffic congestion growing worse - and state and
federal budgets as red as the brake lights from cars backed up on a Los
Angeles freeway - Congress is moving toward relaxing a decades-old
restriction on tolls on interstate highways.

The legislation, backed by the Bush administration, would give states
greater authority to impose tolls to reduce gridlock.

These charges could be levied to raise money for new highway
construction. Or motorists could be charged varying tolls during the
day, with higher tolls in effect during rush hours to nudge drivers
into making some of their trips during less busy times.

The toll provisions are part of a long-stalled $284-billion, six-year
transportation spending bill that is expected to clear the House today.
The Senate is expected to vote on its version of the bill within a few
months.

Last year, the legislation stalled amid complaints from the White House
that it was too costly. But now, the administration and congressional
GOP leaders appear to have settled on a price tag.

Although the House and Senate bills contain different provisions on
tolls, some easing of the rules against such charges on interstates
seems certain to emerge in the final version of the legislation.

The 46,730-mile interstate system has been largely free of tolls since
its birth in 1956, though a number of old turnpikes, mostly on the East
Coast, charge tolls.

Some experimental tolling also has been permitted, such as on a stretch
of Interstate 15 in San Diego County where drivers with no passengers
can buy their way into the carpool lanes. They pay tolls varying from
50 cents to $8, depending on the level of congestion in the lane at the
time.

Supporters of the toll provisions say they hope to see similar projects
on more highways if the federal rules are relaxed. The House bill, in
fact, would give states authority to open more carpool lanes to solo
motorists willing to pay a toll to speed past the traffic.

Among its other provisions, the House bill would establish three pilot
programs that would allow tolls to be levied to fund new interstate
construction. And it would authorize 25 so-called congestion-pricing
projects on existing highways. Under that program, motorists would be
charged the higher tolls during rush hours.

The Senate bill, which is still being drafted, is expected to go
further. It would allow states to impose tolls on newly built lanes. It
also would allow states to use congestion pricing, but not limit the
number of projects.

Not everyone is eager to see more tolls.

In California, Assemblywoman Jenny Oropeza (D-Long Beach), who chairs
the Assembly Transportation Committee, said she would oppose any effort
to create more toll roads in California.

"I have always held the view that public highways should be equally
accessible to everybody," she said. "The answer to reducing highway
congestion should include a mix of more funding for highway
construction and mass-transit projects."

In Washington, opponents of tolls - including the American Trucking
Assns. and the American Automobile Assn. - have begun lobbying against
allowing charges on existing roads. They contend such tolls amount to
double taxation of motorists who already have paid gasoline taxes.

The trucking industry group also warns that tolls on existing highways
could drive truck traffic onto city streets, worsening traffic
congestion on those roads.

But in a sign of the growing political support for tolls, the House on
Wednesday rejected a measure that would have limited tolls to newly
constructed lanes and required the charges be lifted once the new lanes
were paid for. State highway officials were among those opposing any
effort to weaken the bill's toll provisions.

The push for tolls has gained legislative momentum because the federal
government and an increasing number of states are strapped for cash to
maintain highways, let alone improve them.

"No tolls, no roads," Rep. Corrine Brown (D-Fla.) said.

The federal gasoline tax, the major source of funding for highways, has
not been raised in more than a decade, and Bush opposes any increase.
Additionally, federal officials are concerned that federal efforts to
encourage greater use of more fuel-efficient vehicles could reduce gas
tax revenue, making even less money available for highway projects.

States are finding transportation funds competing with other critical
needs.

In California, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has proposed diverting $1.3
billion from transportation projects to help close the state's budget
gap.

Schwarzenegger has not taken a position on tolls on federal highways,
said Patrick Dorinson, a spokesman for the state's Business,
Transportation and Housing Agency.

Federal Highway Administrator Mary E. Peters said public attitudes
about tolls had shifted, in part because of technological advances.
Now, vehicles can be equipped with electronic transmitters that allow
motorists to pay tolls without stopping.

"People are saying, 'I don't mind paying the toll so much, but just
don't make me stop,' " she said.

The focus on imposing tolls to help pay for improved roadways comes as
studies find traffic congestion growing. Between 1990 and 2001, the
percentage of freeway mileage that was congested grew from 49% to 60%,
according to the Texas Transportation Institute.

Robert Poole, director of transportation studies for the Reason
Foundation, a Santa Monica think tank, said there was a "huge need to
rebuild portions of our freeways and interstates, but very little money
- and no political will to increase federal gas taxes. So the only way
to get where we need to go is with a new funding source: tolls."

If the federal rules on tolls are relaxed, tolls would still need to be
approved at the state level.

"This is very, very politically dicey," Poole said.

Still, a number of states also are turning to tolls as a way to finance
new highway projects. Texas has embarked on a massive highway
construction program using tolls to fund new state highways. In
Connecticut and North Carolina, state legislation has been introduced
to impose tolls on highways at the state borders.

Free-market proponents frequently float the notion of toll roads when
California's state government is in financial trouble, but the state's
limited experience with the pay-as-you-go roads has been troubled.

In 1989, the Legislature authorized Caltrans to sign contracts with
private companies for four demonstration toll road projects, only one
of which is operating.

That case involves 10 miles of California 91 in Orange County, one of
the state's most congested stretches of highway, which since has been
bought by the Orange County Transportation Authority.

The largest toll road system in California is a 51-mile network
operated by the Transportation Corridor Agencies, a government entity
based in Irvine.

---------------------

Highway bill

The Transportation Equity Act would provide $284 billion for projects
for fiscal years 2004 through 2009, up from $218 billion in the
previous six-year period. If enacted, here's where the money might go:

(In billions)

Highways $225.5
Transit $52.3
Safety $3.2
Truck safety $2.9

Source: Associated Press

Note: The bill contains about $10 billion in "earmarks" for 3,700
specific projects requested by individual lawmakers.
Robert  Morien - 10 Mar 2005 22:47 GMT
That ought to make those who get off on any "illegal alien" issues quite
happy.

> Los Angeles Times
> March 10, 2005
[quoted text clipped - 170 lines]
> Note: The bill contains about $10 billion in "earmarks" for 3,700
> specific projects requested by individual lawmakers.
ameijers - 10 Mar 2005 23:32 GMT
> Los Angeles Times
> March 10, 2005
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Angeles freeway - Congress is moving toward relaxing a decades-old
> restriction on tolls on interstate highways.

(huge snip)
EPA and DOE should fight to get all toll roads BANNED, to eliminate all the
pollution and wasted gas caused from people sitting in line. Rich locals may
have ez-pass, but occasional users and through traffic have to pay cash.
Wouldn't be too bad if they had one booth at the start of a long strech, but
many areas have you stopping every few minutes to pay a quarter.

aem sends...
Rick - 10 Mar 2005 23:35 GMT
> Los Angeles Times
> March 10, 2005
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> The legislation, backed by the Bush administration, would give states
> greater authority to impose tolls to reduce gridlock.

Yep.  Bush is doing exactly what Reagan did -- advertising federal
income tax cuts while increasing and making new taxes everywhere
else.  I bet the American people fall for it -- again.
Brent P - 11 Mar 2005 03:34 GMT
> Yep.  Bush is doing exactly what Reagan did -- advertising federal
> income tax cuts while increasing and making new taxes everywhere
> else.  I bet the American people fall for it -- again.

If income taxes really disappeared, this would be good thing. I would
rather control my consumption to avoid taxation than limit my income.

The problem is income taxes aren't going to go anywhere. What's worse
about it is that an ever greater percentage of people don't pay
significant federal income taxes as it is. (roughly the top 50% of wage
earners pay 96% of the federal income taxes) Thusly they will vote to
keep the income tax and for increases in it to pay for stuff they
benefit from.
George Grapman - 11 Mar 2005 03:48 GMT
>>Yep.  Bush is doing exactly what Reagan did -- advertising federal
>>income tax cuts while increasing and making new taxes everywhere
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> keep the income tax and for increases in it to pay for stuff they
> benefit from.

  Actually that number is flawed because it only represents taxable
wages and not other income which is not subject to taxation. Rush
Limbaugh has a permanent spot on his web site with this data but he also
ignores that little detail.

Signature

  To reply via e-mail please delete 1 c from paccbell

Brent P - 11 Mar 2005 04:40 GMT
>    Actually that number is flawed because it only represents taxable
> wages and not other income which is not subject to taxation. Rush
> Limbaugh has a permanent spot on his web site with this data but he also
> ignores that little detail.

Even if so, I don't see how that invalidates the theme of it. Or how I
used it. Sure there maybe a few people that have little or no taxable
wages and make a ton in capitial gains or some such that they pay taxes on,
but I would guess they are too few to bust the basic theme. In fact,
such people would reinforce my point that it is dangerous where only
some people are carrying the tax burden. It allows that large segment of
the population to take at will from those that are paying.
George Grapman - 11 Mar 2005 04:58 GMT
>>   Actually that number is flawed because it only represents taxable
>>wages and not other income which is not subject to taxation. Rush
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> some people are carrying the tax burden. It allows that large segment of
> the population to take at will from those that are paying.

  You assume that money of those paying were never on the receiving
end. Those who were self-made often availed themselves of an array of
government programs from education to transportation.Those who inherited
money use everything from police and fire protection to the FDIC.

Signature

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Larry Bud - 11 Mar 2005 13:42 GMT
>    You assume that money of those paying were never on the receiving
> end. Those who were self-made often availed themselves of an array of

> government programs from education to transportation.Those who inherited
> money use everything from police and fire protection to the FDIC.

So what.  Those who inherited money is money that has already been
taxed numerous times.
sfgeorge@pacbell.net - 12 Mar 2005 01:51 GMT
> >    You assume that money of those paying were never on the receiving
> > end. Those who were self-made often availed themselves of an array of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> So what.  Those who inherited money is money that has already been
> taxed numerous times.

 So have pensions and Social Security yet they are taxed.
Brent P - 11 Mar 2005 16:28 GMT
>>>   Actually that number is flawed because it only represents taxable
>>>wages and not other income which is not subject to taxation. Rush
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>> some people are carrying the tax burden. It allows that large segment of
>> the population to take at will from those that are paying.

>    You assume that money of those paying were never on the receiving
> end. Those who were self-made often availed themselves of an array of
> government programs from education to transportation.Those who inherited
> money use everything from police and fire protection to the FDIC.

You're really going off on a tanget. The past situation of these people
and how you want to somehow draw their success as the result of
government spending is not relevant. Let me put it in simple terms so
you'll understand. Let's say your federal income tax obligation all said
and done is 20% of your income. Let's say I make significantly less and
my obligation is zero after deductions. I want free ice cream every
friday, as do many others. We want the federal government to provide us ice
cream every friday. There are enough of us that congress criters want our
votes. The benefits of having ice cream once a week are brought out, some
people object that ice cream will make people fat and the lactose
intolerant will be left out. An admendment is made for special ice cream
for the lactose intolerant and a provision to raise federal income taxes
1% across the board to provide for the ice cream fridays is also added.
The bill passes and is signed into law.

You now pay 21% of your income in federal income taxes after deductions. I
still pay 0% after deductions. I and the majority of people who don't
have to pay now have free ice cream every friday.

Now we want free cake on tuesdays, and chicken every saturday...

And that's why it's a problem. It destroys the republic as people vote
themselves money from the treasury. Wether you think the cause is worthy
or not, when this condition of taxation exists, those who don't have to
pay the taxes will gleefully vote for those who transfer funds from those
paying the taxes.

"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money,
and will promote the general welfare, the government is no longer a
limited one possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one subject
to particular exceptions." James Madison, "Letter to Edmund Pendleton,"
-- James Madison, January 21, 1792, in The Papers of James Madison, vol.
14, Robert A Rutland et. al., ed (Charlottesvile: University Press of
Virginia,1984).

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse
from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes
for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury,
with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal
policy, always followed by a dictatorship."
-- Alexander Tyler

When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will
herald the end of the republic.
-- Benjamin Franklin
brd1289@hotmail.com - 21 Mar 2005 02:06 GMT
>you'll understand. Let's say your federal income tax obligation all said
>and done is 20% of your income. Let's say I make significantly less and
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Now we want free cake on tuesdays, and chicken every saturday...

These preposterously simple minded conservative scenarios tell us sh.t about
the real world.  I haven't heard any body asking for free cake and chicken.
But even if the government did provide free cake to everybody it would a
completely insignificant expediture relative to things like DEBT INTEREST
payments.

>And that's why it's a problem. It destroys the republic as people vote
>themselves money from the treasury.

You know what really does "destroy the republic"?  GOVERNMENT DEBT
hyperinflated by simultaneous tax cuts and solo wars.  What destroys the
republic are _huge_ government debt pileups created by idiots thinking
"I don't want my neighbor to get free cake and ice cream some day so I'll
vote myself a huge tax cut to make sure it doesn't happen."  Almost all
of your money is going to pay for $$$ debt interest, $$$ cluster bombs, an
insurance system for elderly and disabled people, and guaranteed $$$ profits
for drug and other companies -- it is not going to pay for cake.

>Wether you think the cause is worthy
>or not, when this condition of taxation exists, those who don't have to
>pay the taxes will gleefully vote for those who transfer funds from those
>paying the taxes.

I will "gleefully" vote to provide children with health insurance because
they can't vote for it themselves.  I'm pretty certain Jesus would gleefully
want that too.  I will "gleefully" vote for a universal health care system
because (1) every other country pays far less than the USA with generally
better health statistics and (2) more than 18000 American citizens die every
year without it.  That means in the last 10 years the US has had 3000 deaths
from terrorism (and spent $500+ billion because of it) versus 180,000+ deaths
from lack of health care.
Brent P - 21 Mar 2005 04:00 GMT
>>you'll understand. Let's say your federal income tax obligation all said
>>and done is 20% of your income. Let's say I make significantly less and
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>>
>>Now we want free cake on tuesdays, and chicken every saturday...

> These preposterously simple minded conservative scenarios tell us sh.t about
> the real world.  I haven't heard any body asking for free cake and chicken.
> But even if the government did provide free cake to everybody it would a
> completely insignificant expediture relative to things like DEBT INTEREST
> payments.

In other words, you understand it, can't refute it, and want to make a side tanget.
Do you know what the federal government spends the most on? entitlements.


>>And that's why it's a problem. It destroys the republic as people vote
>>themselves money from the treasury.

> You know what really does "destroy the republic"?  GOVERNMENT DEBT
> hyperinflated by simultaneous tax cuts and solo wars.  What destroys the
> republic are _huge_ government debt pileups created by idiots thinking

Having fun ranting about side tangets? Do you know what has caused  that debt? People
voting themselves money.

> "I don't want my neighbor to get free cake and ice cream some day so I'll
> vote myself a huge tax cut to make sure it doesn't happen."  Almost all
> of your money is going to pay for $$$ debt interest, $$$ cluster bombs, an
> insurance system for elderly and disabled people, and guaranteed $$$ profits
> for drug and other companies -- it is not going to pay for cake.

More useless side tangents. Because you have different preferences to squander public
money and transfer it to others doesn't make you any better or worse.

>>Wether you think the cause is worthy
>>or not, when this condition of taxation exists, those who don't have to
>>pay the taxes will gleefully vote for those who transfer funds from those
>>paying the taxes.

> I will "gleefully" vote to provide children with health insurance because
> they can't vote for it themselves.  I'm pretty certain Jesus would gleefully
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> from terrorism (and spent $500+ billion because of it) versus 180,000+ deaths
> from lack of health care.

And finally, you close with an appeal to the heart. If you really want that, why
don't you and your friends draft a new constitution and have it installed. Until
then, the one we have does not allow for government to take from one citizen and give
to another. That includes social security, welfare (personal and corporate), taking
land and giving it to developers, perscription drug programs, etc and so on.

The only difference between you and the people you hate are the reasons you want to
take money from one citizen and give it to another. Republicans and democrats differ
little. The debt, is largely due to people voting themselves money from the treasury
and using influence to do the same. That's the root cause, and that is what is
destroying the republic (people voting themselves money from the treasury).
Big Bill - 11 Mar 2005 14:51 GMT
>>    Actually that number is flawed because it only represents taxable
>> wages and not other income which is not subject to taxation. Rush
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>some people are carrying the tax burden. It allows that large segment of
>the population to take at will from those that are paying.

Your thinking is flawed, in that almost half of wage earners pay no or
very little income tax. I'm speaking of those on the lower end, not
the upper end.
A consumption tax (which you said you'd prefer) will never happen in
the US, as they are *very* regressive.
Same goes for a flat tax.
While either would be more *fair* than our current income tax, fair is
not what's wanted.

Signature

Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"

Brent P - 11 Mar 2005 17:02 GMT
> Your thinking is flawed, in that almost half of wage earners pay no or
> very little income tax. I'm speaking of those on the lower end, not
> the upper end.

I don't see how it matters to my point that those not paying taxes will
have no problem increasing taxes on those that do. Wether it be for the
roads or ice cream every friday.

> A consumption tax (which you said you'd prefer) will never happen in
> the US, as they are *very* regressive.
> Same goes for a flat tax.
> While either would be more *fair* than our current income tax, fair is
> not what's wanted.

Yes, the current system is anything but fair. It is controlled by politics
and thusly one group always gets breaks at the expense of another. Somebody
with kids gets a deduction on their income taxes, I have no kids, I do
not. Yet, by not having children thus far, I require less in government
services, there is no kid of mine in the school systems (yet my property
taxes go to the schools directly, income taxes indirectly), etc and so
forth. And before someone says 'but you benefit from educated childern'
I'll wager it's the same person who would also say since I have no
children I should shut up about how they are to be educated, despite
paying for said education.

And as I have been saying what is wanted, are groups of citizens
demanding money from another group and using the power of government as a
weapon to do it. It's theft just as the mugger does with a gun.
Big Bill - 12 Mar 2005 15:04 GMT
>> Your thinking is flawed, in that almost half of wage earners pay no or
>> very little income tax. I'm speaking of those on the lower end, not
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>demanding money from another group and using the power of government as a
>weapon to do it. It's theft just as the mugger does with a gun.

You're right.
What I'm saying is that we won't get a fundamental change on what is
taxed; i.e., we won't change from our current income tax to a
consumption (sales/value added) tax or a flat rate tax.
We might get another tax simplification or code overhaul, but it won't
make much differenct to the average taxpayer, IMO.

Signature

Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"

brd1289@hotmail.com - 21 Mar 2005 02:18 GMT
>And as I have been saying what is wanted, are groups of citizens
>demanding money from another group and using the power of government as a
>weapon to do it.

That "group of citizens" are called "US government bond holders".  But
now almost half are foreigners rather than citizens.  This group has expanded
greatly thanks to George Bush.  The practical effect of his mismanagement
is that the American taxpayers are developing a serfdom relationship with
foreign governments like the Communist government in China because now
we have to pay them a yearly $$$ tribute called "interest payments".
Brent P - 21 Mar 2005 04:02 GMT
>>And as I have been saying what is wanted, are groups of citizens
>>demanding money from another group and using the power of government as a
>>weapon to do it.

> That "group of citizens" are called "US government bond holders".  But
> now almost half are foreigners rather than citizens.  This group has expanded
> greatly thanks to George Bush.

More anti-bush side tangets posted in reply to old posts... *yawn* don't you have
something better to do?

>  The practical effect of his mismanagement
> is that the American taxpayers are developing a serfdom relationship with
> foreign governments like the Communist government in China because now
> we have to pay them a yearly $$$ tribute called "interest payments".

The US population has been on the road to the third world for decades. The decline
doesn't slow one bit through democrat administrations. People like yourself do go to
sleep however. (Look up what occured with regard to trade with china during clinton's
time in office)
Larry Bud - 11 Mar 2005 13:43 GMT
>    Actually that number is flawed because it only represents taxable
> wages and not other income which is not subject to taxation.

Do you live in fantasyland?  What income is not subject to taxation?

The number comes right from the IRS.
someone@somewhere.org - 11 Mar 2005 16:24 GMT
In misc.consumers.frugal-living Larry Bud <larrybud2002@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>    Actually that number is flawed because it only represents taxable
>> wages and not other income which is not subject to taxation.

> Do you live in fantasyland?  What income is not subject to taxation?

I'll let the URL speak for itself...

http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/DummiesArticle/id-185.html
Big Bill - 12 Mar 2005 15:06 GMT
>>    Actually that number is flawed because it only represents taxable
>> wages and not other income which is not subject to taxation.
>
>Do you live in fantasyland?  What income is not subject to taxation?
>
>The number comes right from the IRS.

For most taxpayers, there is a difference between gross income and
taxable income.
For many, the difference is virtually infinite; that is, they pay no
taxes on their income.
In fact, many get a "refund" on taxes that not only are not due, but
were never deducted in the first place.

Signature

Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"

Antipodean Bucket Farmer - 12 Mar 2005 21:57 GMT
In article
<391631lgvpgiua8a4iaj73u5oolp0fl28m@4ax.com>,
bill@pipping.com says...

> >>    Actually that number is flawed because it only represents taxable
> >> wages and not other income which is not subject to taxation.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> In fact, many get a "refund" on taxes that not only are not due, but
> were never deducted in the first place.

I understand that, people whose income is lower
than the "Standard Deduction" (about $7K these days?)
don't owe any tax, and can claim a refund for all of
the tax withheld during the year.  But which people get
an excess "refund" of money that they never paid?  Is
that just the people with kids whom they cannot afford?  
Or the, "Earned Income Tax Credit," or what?

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John David Galt - 13 Mar 2005 08:19 GMT
> I understand that, people whose income is lower
> than the "Standard Deduction" (about $7K these days?)
> don't owe any tax, and can claim a refund for all of
> the tax withheld during the year.

It has to be lower than the standard deduction + the personal exemption(s).
For a single person on a 2004 return that's $3050 + 4700 = 7750.

There are exceptions.  A self employed person will usually owe Self
Employment Tax (= SS + Medicare) anyway.

>  But which people get
> an excess "refund" of money that they never paid?  Is
> that just the people with kids whom they cannot afford?  
> Or the, "Earned Income Tax Credit," or what?

Pretty much just the EIC.
The Real Bev - 14 Mar 2005 01:56 GMT
> > I understand that, people whose income is lower
> > than the "Standard Deduction" (about $7K these days?)
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> There are exceptions.  A self employed person will usually owe Self
> Employment Tax (= SS + Medicare) anyway.

Roughly double SS since the worker has to make up the employer's share.

I just did taxes for a handyman with $6K annual income.  No tax due, but
the feds want $600 SE tax, reduced by $300 earned income credit.  His
employers regard him as an independent contractor and he gets no
disability or workers' comp insurance either.  If he complained they'd
find somebody else to do the work.      

> >  But which people get
> > an excess "refund" of money that they never paid?  Is
> > that just the people with kids whom they cannot afford?
> > Or the, "Earned Income Tax Credit," or what?
>
> Pretty much just the EIC.

Signature

Cheers, Bev
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Never keep up with the Joneses. Drag them down to your level.
It's cheaper."                  -- Quentin Crisp 1908 - 1999

John David Galt - 14 Mar 2005 02:17 GMT
>> It has to be lower than the standard deduction + the personal exemption(s).
>> For a single person on a 2004 return that's $3050 + 4700 = 7750.
>>
>> There are exceptions.  A self employed person will usually owe Self
>> Employment Tax (= SS + Medicare) anyway.

> Roughly double SS since the worker has to make up the employer's share.

Exactly double, in fact (unless the person's SE income is low enough to
get out of paying it, $400 IIRC).

> I just did taxes for a handyman with $6K annual income.  No tax due, but
> the feds want $600 SE tax, reduced by $300 earned income credit.  His
> employers regard him as an independent contractor and he gets no
> disability or workers' comp insurance either.  If he complained they'd
> find somebody else to do the work.      

I always pity these people when they come in to the tax office.  Not
only are they having to pay the employer's share of the tax, but they
often have to pay a penalty for underwithholding.
Brent P - 14 Mar 2005 03:39 GMT
> I always pity these people when they come in to the tax office.  Not
> only are they having to pay the employer's share of the tax, but they
> often have to pay a penalty for underwithholding.

There is no 'employer's share'. A person costs a company X to employ.
How that X is divided up doesn't matter, the employee costs X. Thusly the
part of social security known as the 'employer portion' is nothing more
than wages not seen. It's money earned going to the government as tax.

And yes, it's a tax. There are no property rights to social security at
present.
Big Bill - 14 Mar 2005 04:52 GMT
>> I always pity these people when they come in to the tax office.  Not
>> only are they having to pay the employer's share of the tax, but they
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>And yes, it's a tax. There are no property rights to social security at
>present.

Something not well understood.

I hope that the current dust-up over SS will encourage the 'people' to
do some investigation into Social Security.
What with the Administration and the Dems both saying they won't talk
to each other untill certain things happen, I find it interesting that
all sides are ignoring the elephant in the parlor: SS is a pyramid
scheme, and it's run its course.
(Note the proper use of "it's" & "its":-) )
We need to understand that the time of more coming in than going out
will end soon, and the SS "surpluses" are in the form of Treasury Note
IOUs, and the Treasury doesn't have the money to redeem them. While an
"Ownership" approach is, IMO, a good thing, there are very fundamental
changes that need to be made, or SS simply will not be able to even
supply what's due me. And *THAT'S* a problem!

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Brent P - 14 Mar 2005 05:04 GMT
>>And yes, it's a tax. There are no property rights to social security at
>>present.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> changes that need to be made, or SS simply will not be able to even
> supply what's due me. And *THAT'S* a problem!

The democrats are telling me I might lose everything in the private account portion.

However, the SSA is telling me that around when I turn 65, the whole thing is
broke. And I mean broke, broke. As there is no more money. And by then the retirement
age will be higher than 65. All the money that is taken from me for social security
is gone. It's an income tax, just like any other.

So, GWB is offering me something, a chance at having some money. Democrats are offering
nothing.

This isn't a tough choice. No matter how much shrub's plan may suck, even if it nets
me 50 cents, it's better than presently proposed alternative of doing nothing.

Just to be fair, President Clinton offered up personal accounts in 1999 to the cheers
of democrats. But now that Bush has taken up carrying the torch the democrats have
decided to oppose it.

Really, I would just like to opt-out. Let me out now, keep everything taken thus far.
I can save money myself, and if need be, can prove it to the government.
John Harlow - 14 Mar 2005 05:36 GMT
> However, the SSA is telling me that around when I turn 65, the whole
> thing is
> broke. And I mean broke, broke. As there is no more money.

Not going to happen.

How, you may ask?

By the current administration's passing the debt on to our children's
children's children's children's children's... children.   It's the
American* way!  The government will simply print more and more cash until
it's the par value of toilet paper.  At least it will always be useful.

(*made in China)
Brent P - 14 Mar 2005 06:06 GMT
>> However, the SSA is telling me that around when I turn 65, the whole
>> thing is
>> broke. And I mean broke, broke. As there is no more money.
>
> Not going to happen.
> How, you may ask?

By taxing me into poverty before I retire, oops can't retire because I was taxed into
poverty.

> By the current administration's passing the debt on to our children's
> children's children's children's children's... children.   It's the
> American* way!  The government will simply print more and more cash until
> it's the par value of toilet paper.  At least it will always be useful.

Which means poverty in my 'golden years' even if I save my money. How glorious. I
better start buying gold.
John Harlow - 14 Mar 2005 06:15 GMT
>> By the current administration's passing the debt on to our children's
>> children's children's children's children's... children.   It's the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Which means poverty in my 'golden years' even if I save my money. How
> glorious. I better start buying gold.

I dunno, man.  The great and powerful USA seems like one giant paper tiger
to me, with the real estate market leading the way.
Matthew Russotto - 14 Mar 2005 17:56 GMT
>> I always pity these people when they come in to the tax office.  Not
>> only are they having to pay the employer's share of the tax, but they
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>part of social security known as the 'employer portion' is nothing more
>than wages not seen. It's money earned going to the government as tax.

Right.  All it means is that when you want to compare a salary to
income earned through self-employment, you have to adjust one or the
other by 92.4% or whatever the current figure is.
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Big Bill - 13 Mar 2005 09:09 GMT
>In article
><391631lgvpgiua8a4iaj73u5oolp0fl28m@4ax.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>that just the people with kids whom they cannot afford?  
>Or the, "Earned Income Tax Credit," or what?

Yes, earned income tax credit.
With the "credit", tax that was never paid is refunded.

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DTJ - 13 Mar 2005 20:48 GMT
>I understand that, people whose income is lower
>than the "Standard Deduction" (about $7K these days?)
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>that just the people with kids whom they cannot afford?  
>Or the, "Earned Income Tax Credit," or what?

EIC is one way, and the child tax credit is another.  Dimocrats fought
Bush because those who pay no tax were not getting a refund exceeding
that which was withheld.
John David Galt - 14 Mar 2005 00:31 GMT
> EIC is one way, and the child tax credit is another.

The child tax credit isn't refundable.  There is an "additional child
tax credit" that can let you carry all or part of the CTC down to the
payments section so it's refundable, but ACTC is limited to 10% of
earned income above some number in the $14k range, so it's not going
to give you money you never worked for the way EIC does.

> Dimocrats fought
> Bush because those who pay no tax were not getting a refund exceeding
> that which was withheld.

But they lost because there's an unfairness on the other side, too:
The "Alternative Minimum Tax", because it's not indexed like the rest
of the tax code, is hitting more and more middle income taxpayers.
Among other things that means that large families get screwed out of
all their kids' personal exemptions.  This is an issue that Republicans
want to fix and Democrats don't.
DTJ - 13 Mar 2005 20:48 GMT
>>>    Actually that number is flawed because it only represents taxable
>>> wages and not other income which is not subject to taxation.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>In fact, many get a "refund" on taxes that not only are not due, but
>were never deducted in the first place.

Thanks to the f.cking liberals in congress.  "Bush is being unfair by
lowering the tax rates of those who pay taxes, when he isn't lowering
the tax rates of those who don't pay taxes."  Yet the American public
is so f.cking stupid they don't see how ignorant the democrats claims
are.
SpammersDie - 14 Mar 2005 00:47 GMT
>>>>    Actually that number is flawed because it only represents taxable
>>>> wages and not other income which is not subject to taxation.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> is so f.cking stupid they don't see how ignorant the democrats claims
> are.

They understand the argument - the problem is that too many voters are in
the camp that don't pay taxes so it's in their interests to play along - and
worse, the freeloader subset getting to close to 50% of the voting-eligible
populace. Fortunately, we're not quite there yet - the liberals continue to
lose elections.

We need to make it so that you have to actually have owed (and paid) at
least 10% of the median federal income tax over the past four years in order
to be eligible to vote. Those who don't satisfy this requirement could still
register if they're willing to pay a catchup fee that makes up the
difference.
Motorhead Lawyer - 14 Mar 2005 23:19 GMT
> We need to make it so that you have to actually have owed (and paid) at
> least 10% of the median federal income tax over the past four years in order
> to be eligible to vote. Those who don't satisfy this requirement could still
> register if they're willing to pay a catchup fee that makes up the
> difference.

Screw that!  Let's just have a real property ownership requirement!
That way, you can disenfranchise *all* the groups that Republicans
don't like!

Of course, that'll cut both ways.  All that mouth-breathin',
cousin-marryin' ignorant trailer trash that thinks W is doin' a *good
job* will get cut off at the polls, too.  *Then* whaddya gonna do?
Change the real property laws so a *double-wide* qualifies?
--
Ol' C.R.
Brent P - 14 Mar 2005 23:39 GMT
> Screw that!  Let's just have a real property ownership requirement!
> That way, you can disenfranchise *all* the groups that Republicans
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> job* will get cut off at the polls, too.  *Then* whaddya gonna do?
> Change the real property laws so a *double-wide* qualifies?

Well that's the way it's seen now. However the founders considered this
problem wrt the issues we are now facing. That being those without
property using the government as a tool to take from those that do.

Not only in the form of redistribution schemes, but also for companies
to profit. Taking people's property only to give it to another private
enity such that it would be used 'better'(generate more property tax).

"It is nevertheless certain, that there are various ways in which the
rich may oppress the poor; in which property may oppress liberty; and
that the world is filled with examples. It is necessary that the poor
should have a defense against the danger. On the other hand, the danger
to the holders of property can not be disguised, if they be undefended
against a majority without property." -James Madison (He was in favor of  
the senate to be elected by property owners, and the representives in the
house being elected by the people at large)
Rich Greenberg - 15 Mar 2005 00:10 GMT
>"It is nevertheless certain, that there are various ways in which the
>rich may oppress the poor; in which property may oppress liberty; and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>the senate to be elected by property owners, and the representives in the
>house being elected by the people at large)

Keep in mind that the constitution provided for senators being chosen by
the legislatures of the states.  This was changed to popular election by
an amendment (16th I think, but not sure).

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Eastern time.  N6LRT  I speak for myself & my dogs only.   VM'er since CP-67
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Brent P - 15 Mar 2005 02:42 GMT
>>"It is nevertheless certain, that there are various ways in which the
>>rich may oppress the poor; in which property may oppress liberty; and
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> the legislatures of the states.  This was changed to popular election by
> an amendment (16th I think, but not sure).

Yes. they weren't perfect people. The state legislatures often battled
over who would be senator, resulting in no senator, there were also
corruption problems. A number of problems eventually resulted in
elections for senator.

I only intended to show that this kind of problem was foreseen, and that
it is not merely a simple one of giving 'republicans' an advantage. It's
about a fundamental problem in protecting the liberty of the people in
the republic.
Rod Speed - 15 Mar 2005 00:11 GMT
>> Screw that!  Let's just have a real property ownership requirement!
>> That way, you can disenfranchise *all* the groups that Republicans
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> the senate to be elected by property owners, and the representives in the
> house being elected by the people at large)

And then the world moved on and only the stupid
english are stupid enough to have anything like that now.
me@privacy.net - 11 Mar 2005 04:48 GMT
>I would
>rather control my consumption to avoid taxation than limit my income.

Me too
SoCalMike - 11 Mar 2005 05:55 GMT
>>Yep.  Bush is doing exactly what Reagan did -- advertising federal
>>income tax cuts while increasing and making new taxes everywhere
>>else.  I bet the American people fall for it -- again.
>
> If income taxes really disappeared, this would be good thing. I would
> rather control my consumption to avoid taxation than limit my income.

same here. doesnt seem like a major issue. and big spenders will always
be so.

> The problem is income taxes aren't going to go anywhere. What's worse
> about it is that an ever greater percentage of people don't pay
> significant federal income taxes as it is. (roughly the top 50% of wage
> earners pay 96% of the federal income taxes) Thusly they will vote to
> keep the income tax and for increases in it to pay for stuff they
> benefit from.

the way i understand it is that it would start out with a consumption
tax replacing the income tax. then, of course, theyd gradually add a
"small" income tax, then make it bigger, etc.
Rod Speed - 11 Mar 2005 07:24 GMT
>>>Yep.  Bush is doing exactly what Reagan did -- advertising federal
>>>income tax cuts while increasing and making new taxes everywhere
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>> federal income taxes) Thusly they will vote to keep the income tax and for
>> increases in it to pay for stuff they benefit from.

> the way i understand it is that it would start out with a consumption tax
> replacing the income tax.

Hasnt happened in even a single modern first world country.

So it wont in the US either, you watch.

> then, of course, theyd gradually add a "small" income tax, then make it
> bigger, etc.

Mindless conspiracy theory.
Williams - 11 Mar 2005 03:54 GMT
> > Los Angeles Times
> > March 10, 2005
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> income tax cuts while increasing and making new taxes everywhere
> else.  I bet the American people fall for it -- again.

it's privatization... next: they'll put a toll booth on your driveway,
payable to the republican national committee...
damn tax-and-spend liberal democrats!!! oops
johnny - 10 Mar 2005 23:50 GMT
"MrPepper11" wrote in message

<snip>

I have several thoughts on this madness.  Wait, oh forget it.  I thought the
subject was about trolls on interstates.
Anthony Matonak - 11 Mar 2005 01:38 GMT
> I have several thoughts on this madness.  Wait, oh forget it.  I thought the
> subject was about trolls on interstates.

You're likely confusing it with trolls on the information highway.
:)

Anthony
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Dave C. - 11 Mar 2005 00:31 GMT
> Los Angeles Times
> March 10, 2005
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> its birth in 1956, though a number of old turnpikes, mostly on the East
> Coast, charge tolls.

I was about to say WHAT?!?, but then they mentioned the East Coast.  Yup,
hardly any major Interstate I drive on is NOT a toll road already.
:(  -Dave
Peanutjake - 11 Mar 2005 00:53 GMT
   IMPEACH BUSH,    IT'S TOLL FREE
Matthew Russotto - 14 Mar 2005 16:13 GMT
>I was about to say WHAT?!?, but then they mentioned the East Coast.  Yup,
>hardly any major Interstate I drive on is NOT a toll road already.
>:(  -Dave

Most of I-95, I-81, and I-83 are toll free.

Tolls to reduce congestion... HA.  Tolls increase congestion by their
presence (even with EZ-Pass).  Tolls to pay for highways?  Double
HA... the money will just be shifted over to mass transit.
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Magnulus - 11 Mar 2005 00:48 GMT
 Why not jus tax fuel- I think it would be more transparent than putting a
tax on driving on certain roads.
Rod Speed - 11 Mar 2005 01:26 GMT
>  Why not jus tax fuel

Because it makes a lot more sense to be taxing those who use those interstates.

> I think it would be more transparent than
> putting a tax on driving on certain roads.

You're wrong.
John Harlow - 11 Mar 2005 04:23 GMT
>>  Why not jus tax fuel
>
> Because it makes a lot more sense to be taxing those who use those
> interstates.

You're wrong.

>> I think it would be more transparent than
>> putting a tax on driving on certain roads.
>
> You're wrong.

You're wrong.
Alex Rodriguez - 22 Mar 2005 21:21 GMT
>>  Why not jus tax fuel
>
>Because it makes a lot more sense to be taxing those who use those
>interstates.

It actually doesn't make more sense.  The tolls waste money and add congestion
and pollution.  Taxing fuel makes much more sense.  Cars that use more fuel,
like that that are heavier and cause more damage to the roads, will pay more
than lighter cars that cause less damage to the road.  

>> I think it would be more transparent than
>> putting a tax on driving on certain roads.
>
>You're wrong.

Many would disagree.
----------
Alex
Antipodean Bucket Farmer - 11 Mar 2005 03:24 GMT
In article
<ES5Yd.12581$c72.6332@bignews3.bellsouth.net>,
magnulus@bellsouth.net says...
>   Why not jus tax fuel- I think it would be more transparent than putting a
> tax on driving on certain roads.

They already do.  Look more closely at the pump next
time you visit a petrol station, and see if you can
find the label with the price breakdown.  You may be
quite surprised at the real cost of the fuel, and how
much cost is added on in different taxes.

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Larry Bud - 11 Mar 2005 13:45 GMT
> Why not jus tax fuel- I think it would be more transparent than putting a
> tax on driving on certain roads.

Fuel IS taxed...

But why do you want taxes transparent?  Don't you want people to know
what they're paying for big government?

End the withholding, make everybody pay quarterly.
SoCalMike - 11 Mar 2005 17:06 GMT
> End the withholding, make everybody pay quarterly.

hehe... the way most people spend "extra" money on 24" wheels and DVD
players for their SUVs, they wouldnt have anything saved for the
quarterly bills.
bicycle - 11 Mar 2005 19:13 GMT
> > End the withholding, make everybody pay quarterly.
>
> hehe... the way most people spend "extra" money on 24" wheels and DVD

> players for their SUVs, they wouldnt have anything saved for the
> quarterly bills.

Have you ever had to suffer the embarrassment of your peeps mistaking
your 24" rims for 20's? Well no more because TIS Wheels has the size
of the wheel displayed right on the center cap. It's the SHIZZIT! YO!

This is a direct quote from their website:

"Let Your Size Be Known"
"TIS brand wheels are the first and only wheel to display the size of
the wheel right on the center cap. So there's no guessin' that you're
rollin strong."

<http://www.twentyinchesstrong.com/tis01.html>

Pathetic.
SoCalMike - 11 Mar 2005 19:41 GMT
> Pathetic.

oh, man. that IS weak. bling bling, y'all!
Antipodean Bucket Farmer - 12 Mar 2005 03:26 GMT
In article
<1110568420.697974.43130@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
bicycle@charter.net says...

> > > End the withholding, make everybody pay quarterly.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Pathetic.

Yo, yo, yooooooo...

But you can't fake REAL street cred...

Comin in from East L.A., and cruzin Hollywood Blvd on
Friday and Saturday nites!  With yer restored and
pumped custom '65 Impala!  Crankin da tunez, and
activatin yer hydraulic suspension.  If you do it just
right, you can get the whole car to gallop in place and
leave the surface!

<boom, boom>

"Jump around!  Jump around!  Jump up and get down!"

<boom, boom>

Honestly, I really did put a smile to my face back in
those day, seeing those people having fun :)  Probably
would inspire a (respectful) smile today :)

OK, OK, maybe I am about 15+ years out-of-date.  But
certainly better than those boring suburban OC white
kids in mommy's car, trying to feel cool...

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Big Bill - 12 Mar 2005 15:09 GMT
>> > End the withholding, make everybody pay quarterly.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>Pathetic.

Well, I *LIKE* it!
I can't count how many times I've been embarrased by people pointing
to my SUV and laughing over the fact that I still have the pathetic
stock wheels.

Wait! It's because it's never happened!

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Big Bill - 11 Mar 2005 14:56 GMT
>  Why not jus tax fuel- I think it would be more transparent than putting a
>tax on driving on certain roads.

In the US, a flat tax (which is what fuel taxes are - everyone pays
the same amount on what they use) are not popular.
Those who must drive will be hit harder than those who only *choose*
to drive, becasue they can choose not to drive, thus lowering their
tax.
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Antipodean Bucket Farmer - 12 Mar 2005 01:35 GMT
In article
<p9c331lr4li4gatpctp816d413tref1v5f@4ax.com>,
bill@pipping.com says...

> >  Why not jus tax fuel- I think it would be more transparent than putting a
> >tax on driving on certain roads.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> to drive, becasue they can choose not to drive, thus lowering their
> tax.

Even if you have to drive, you can often choose to
drive a small, fuel-efficient car (lighter, and thus
easier on the road surface), as opposed to choosing a
large gas-hog SUV (heavier, and thus harsher on the
road surface.)

Thus, the amount of fuel tax that an individual pays
can be connected to the amount of wear-and-tear that
their vehicle does to the road.

With tolls, the lighter econo-box pays the same as the
heavier, "mine-is-bigger-than-yours" SUV.

OTOH, the folks who can choose to drive or not are a
good group for giving that extra incentive to take
public transit instead, reducing congestion and
pollution for everyone.

Choice is an interesting thing, and is often quite
distorted in the individual's mind.  My neighbours
wouldn't even consider getting off their lazy arses and
*walking* 1.5 km to the store (e.g. for their weekly
lotto ticket...), and sneer at me for chosen, voluntary
daily exercise walk.  They have just as much option to
walk as I do, and yet they refuse to accept
responsibility for choosing to drive.

I have met people who claimed that public transport
simply wasn't an option at all, because they were just
a better class of people, who are entitled to private
car transport (including people who expect others to do
the driving and provide the car.)  They wouldn't wanna
sink down to the emotional humiliation of riding around
with those poor black folks...

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Big Bill - 13 Mar 2005 09:11 GMT
>In article
><p9c331lr4li4gatpctp816d413tref1v5f@4ax.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>large gas-hog SUV (heavier, and thus harsher on the
>road surface.)

Never been poor, eh?
You get what you can afford. The option of getting what's going to
cost you less in the long run often costs more, and is out of reach to
the very poor.

>Thus, the amount of fuel tax that an individual pays
>can be connected to the amount of wear-and-tear that
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>sink down to the emotional humiliation of riding around
>with those poor black folks...

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SoCalMike - 14 Mar 2005 01:10 GMT
>>Even if you have to drive, you can often choose to
>>drive a small, fuel-efficient car (lighter, and thus
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> cost you less in the long run often costs more, and is out of reach to
> the very poor.

all the poor people i see are in newer full size trucks/SUVs. mebbe
thats why theyre poor? around here, its not about being well-off. its
about *looking* like you are.
DTJ - 13 Mar 2005 20:48 GMT
>I have met people who claimed that public transport
>simply wasn't an option at all, because they were just

In a lot of cases, it isn't.  Less than 1% of the areas in the US have
public transportation.

>a better class of people, who are entitled to private
>car transport (including people who expect others to do
>the driving and provide the car.)  They wouldn't wanna
>sink down to the emotional humiliation of riding around
>with those poor black folks...

Or maybe they wan't to get to their destination with the same number
of holes in their body as they left with.

A white person in Chicago wouldn't even consider public transportation
in most areas where it IS available, unless they use it during a very
small window each day.  Even then they are at major risk for personal
injury.  A huge number of blacks feel the same way, with just slightly
less risk, and a larger window of time where they can get away with
it.
Rod Speed - 13 Mar 2005 21:32 GMT
>> I have met people who claimed that public
>> transport simply wasn't an option at all,

> In a lot of cases, it isn't.  Less than 1% of the
> areas in the US have public transportation.

Thats just plain wrong with the only percentage that matters, the
percentage of individuals who have access to public transportation.

>> because they were just a better class of people, who
>> are entitled to private car transport (including people
>> who expect others to do the driving and provide the car.)
>> They wouldn't wanna sink down to the emotional
>> humiliation of riding around with those poor black folks...

> Or maybe they wan't to get to their destination with
> the same numberof holes in their body as they left with.

Just as true of using their own car, stupid.

> A white person in Chicago wouldn't even consider
> public transportation in most areas where it IS available,
> unless they use it during a very small window each day.
> Even then they are at major risk for personal injury.

Even someone as stupid as you should have noticed that
that is true when they use their own car too, stupid.

> A huge number of blacks feel the same way, with just slightly less
> risk, and a larger window of time where they can get away with it.

Thats coz on one can see them in the dark eh ?
Mark Anderson - 13 Mar 2005 21:45 GMT
In article none@nowhere.com says...
> A white person in Chicago wouldn't even consider public transportation
> in most areas where it IS available, unless they use it during a very
> small window each day.  Even then they are at major risk for personal
> injury.  A huge number of blacks feel the same way, with just slightly
> less risk, and a larger window of time where they can get away with
> it.

I love when right winged ideologues show their true colors.  I listened
to Matt Drudge once on his radio show one late Sunday night.  When it
comes to the right winged talk radio echo chamber, Matt sits pretty far
down on the food chain with, of course, Limbaugh on top.  That said,
Drudge also has to scrape the bottom with respect to callers too.  The
only reason I kept listening to his show was that one after another after
another caller sounded just like the above poster.  I felt like an
anthropologist diving into the deepest depths of the right winged
ideologue's mind.  It was fascinating!
Scott en Aztl?n - 14 Mar 2005 03:32 GMT
>I love when right winged ideologues show their true colors.  I listened
>to Matt Drudge once on his radio show one late Sunday night.  When it
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>anthropologist diving into the deepest depths of the right winged
>ideologue's mind.  It was fascinating!

The only reason I listen to his show is to get the occasional traffic
reports. ;)
Big Bill - 14 Mar 2005 00:08 GMT
>>I have met people who claimed that public transport
>>simply wasn't an option at all, because they were just
>
>In a lot of cases, it isn't.  Less than 1% of the areas in the US have
>public transportation.

But 'area' doesn't use public transportation. People do.
What percentage of people have access to public transportation?
Remember, there are a lot of people in a very small percentage of area
in the US.
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Brent P - 11 Mar 2005 03:30 GMT
> Los Angeles Times
> March 10, 2005
>
> Congress Paving the Way for Tolls on Interstates

Once again we see the result of the monies we pay for things we want
being taken for other things so that more taxes can raised under the
guise of being for what we want.
Scott en Aztl?n - 11 Mar 2005 05:02 GMT
>WASHINGTON - With traffic congestion growing worse - and state and
>federal budgets as red as the brake lights from cars backed up on a Los
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>The legislation, backed by the Bush administration, would give states
>greater authority to impose tolls to reduce gridlock.

An excellent idea. Congestion pricing will go a long way towards
getting people to consider alternatives to driving. AND the money can
be used to build and repair roads and other transportation
infrastructure.

>In California, Assemblywoman Jenny Oropeza (D-Long Beach), who chairs
>the Assembly Transportation Committee, said she would oppose any effort
>to create more toll roads in California.

I wish I lived in the 55th Assembly District so I could vote this
bimbo out of office next fall...

>The trucking industry group also warns that tolls on existing highways
>could drive truck traffic onto city streets, worsening traffic
>congestion on those roads.

That's an empty threat. Truckers are under ridiculously tight
deadlines; there's no way in hell they are going to slog their way
through city streets just to save a few bucks - they would lose too
much time.

In reality, reduced congestion benefits Truckers. They will be glad to
pay. For proof just look at I-44 through Oklahoma; ever see any trucks
driving on that toll road? How about the Pennsylvania Turnpike? I
think I can recall seeing a truck or two there, as well...

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bicycle - 11 Mar 2005 12:28 GMT
Scott en Aztlán wrote:

> >WASHINGTON - With traffic congestion growing worse - and state and
> >federal budgets as red as the brake lights from cars backed up on a Los
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> through city streets just to save a few bucks - they would lose too
> much time.

You're full of sh.t. Again. I was a OTR truck driver for 12 years.
With the exception of freight going into an automobile manufacturing
plant, scheduals are not "ridiculously tight" and it was common to NOT
run the toll roads to save money.

> In reality, reduced congestion benefits Truckers. They will be glad to
> pay. For proof just look at I-44 through Oklahoma; ever see any trucks
> driving on that toll road? How about the Pennsylvania Turnpike? I
> think I can recall seeing a truck or two there, as well...

More BS. Running the Pa Pike from the Ohio line to the Delaware River
Bridge will cost you from $107 to $140. Class 9 will run you a whopping
$794. Check out the truck traffic on Rt.322, 422 and I-80. Many of
these trucks are going to destinations that could be run on the pike
but it's just too expensive. Sure there are trucks running the pike but
they are a fraction of what should/could be there.

Watching re-runs "BJ And The Bear" doesn't make YOU and trucker.
George - 11 Mar 2005 13:00 GMT
Scott en Aztlán wrote:

>>The trucking industry group also warns that tolls on existing highways
>>could drive truck traffic onto city streets, worsening traffic
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> through city streets just to save a few bucks - they would lose too
> much time.

It is a problem and not all trucks are under tight deadlines. There was
a huge increase in truck traffic (heavy during the day and a constant
stream all night)on a 2 lane road not far from me that parallels the
pike for about 30 miles and passes thru 5 towns. This wasn't because a
road was converted to a turnpike but mainly because of the rise in truck
operating costs. I can just imagine how many towns would be crushed if a
road were converted to a turnpike.

There were so many complaints that one of the towns enacted a truck ban.
But the ban may not stick. A town in northern NJ did the same thing
becuase there was a constant stream of trucks clogging up its main st
when avoiding the turnpike but there is current legal action there
because the truck companies are claiming they are exempt because of the
interstate commerce clause.

> In reality, reduced congestion benefits Truckers. They will be glad to
> pay. For proof just look at I-44 through Oklahoma; ever see any trucks
> driving on that toll road? How about the Pennsylvania Turnpike? I
> think I can recall seeing a truck or two there, as well...

In many cases turnpikes offer the only route so I think "glad to pay"
might be more likely "have to pay".
Brent P - 11 Mar 2005 16:31 GMT
> That's an empty threat. Truckers are under ridiculously tight
> deadlines; there's no way in hell they are going to slog their way
> through city streets just to save a few bucks - they would lose too
> much time.

> In reality, reduced congestion benefits Truckers. They will be glad to
> pay. For proof just look at I-44 through Oklahoma; ever see any trucks
> driving on that toll road? How about the Pennsylvania Turnpike? I
> think I can recall seeing a truck or two there, as well...

With the higher tolls on I294, truck traffic is down significantly with
alternative routes (arterials, city streets, etc) seeing a dramatic increase.
Matthew Russotto - 14 Mar 2005 16:35 GMT
>That's an empty threat. Truckers are under ridiculously tight
>deadlines; there's no way in hell they are going to slog their way
>through city streets just to save a few bucks - they would lose too
>much time.

They can and they would.  Some of them, anyway.  Some truckers are
more tightly squeezed for money than for time.

>In reality, reduced congestion benefits Truckers. They will be glad to
>pay. For proof just look at I-44 through Oklahoma; ever see any trucks
>driving on that toll road? How about the Pennsylvania Turnpike? I
>think I can recall seeing a truck or two there, as well...

The PA Turnpike is the only truck-worthy alternative for much of its
length.  But I'd wager quite a few trucks take I-95 to I-76 to bypass
part of it, particularly at night.
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Alex Rodriguez - 22 Mar 2005 21:21 GMT
>>WASHINGTON - With traffic congestion growing worse - and state and
>>federal budgets as red as the brake lights from cars backed up on a Los
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>be used to build and repair roads and other transportation
>infrastructure.

Minimal amounts will go to actually repairing and maintaing the roads.  Most
will be funnelled off to other projects.

>>In California, Assemblywoman Jenny Oropeza (D-Long Beach), who chairs
>>the Assembly Transportation Committee, said she would oppose any effort
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>through city streets just to save a few bucks - they would lose too
>much time.

You obviously have not seen Canal street in NYC.  Many truckers will take
that route, even though it is really slow, to avoid tolls.

>In reality, reduced congestion benefits Truckers. They will be glad to
>pay. For proof just look at I-44 through Oklahoma; ever see any trucks
>driving on that toll road? How about the Pennsylvania Turnpike? I
>think I can recall seeing a truck or two there, as well...

Sometimes you have no choice.
------------
Alex