Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / July 2005
CA Family Giving Long-term Test Drive to Hydrogen Car
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LeMod Pol - 30 Jun 2005 07:49 GMT
California Family Giving Long-term Test Drive to Hydrogen Car
TORRANCE, Calif. - No-pollution cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells are at least a decade away for most people - but not one California family.
In a long-term road test, John Spallino, his wife and two daughters will begin leasing a silver-and-blue, four-seat Honda FCX on Wednesday to get them to work, school and anywhere else they want to roam.
The Spallinos will provide reports about the car's performance to Honda as part of the auto industry's first private test of the promising technology that produces only one byproduct - water clean enough to drink.
"Maybe this is the technology of the future. Maybe it isn't," said the easygoing Spallino, a financial officer who plans to use the FCX for his 80-mile roundtrip commute from his home in Redondo Beach to Irvine.
"But if I can be part of the evolution of this technology, that would be a lot of fun," he said.
The test could give a push to pollution-free cars, said Lindsay Brooke, a senior analyst for CSM Worldwide, an automotive forecasting company.
"It's impact really is in being one small but very meaningful step in the road toward these vehicles being a production reality," Brooke said.
Honda, however, won't say when it might mass market the FCX, which is now built one by one without the economic efficiency of an assembly line.
Honda chose the Spallinos for the test in part because they already own a Honda Civic GX powered by natural gas and are accustomed to the inconvenience of finding fueling stations that provide alternatives to gasoline.
The family will pay $500 a month to lease the FCX. That includes maintenance and insurance on the car that cost Honda more than $1 million to design and build using technology that turns hydrogen and oxygen into electricity.
Government agencies and universities have tested hydrogen vehicles for Honda and other automakers in the past, but the FCX will be the first hydrogen fuel cell car in private hands.
It meets all government safety standards and drives like a regular car, though its electric hum is quieter than a gas engine. The FCX accelerates and maintains speeds comparable to gasoline-powered vehicles.
One difference can be found in the trunk. The Spallinos will have to pack light because their new car has less than a third of the trunk space of a typical car.
But the biggest difference is in the fuel tank. The FCX uses hydrogen gas instead of gasoline and can only go about 190 miles on a tank of fuel.
There are now about 30 hydrogen fueling stations across the country, with more than half of them in California. But Spallino counts at least four on his way to work, including one at Honda's U.S. headquarters in Torrance and another at Los Angeles International Airport.
The LAX station won't open to the public for at least five years but can be used by government vehicles and now the Spallinos.
President Bush, California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger and others say cars run by converting hydrogen to electricity will one day wean the nation of its oil dependence while reducing air pollution.
Environmentalists counter that some automakers are using that promise to avoid improving fuel efficiency in current models. But Honda's record of making gas-electric hybrid cars suggests it's as interested in research and development as in public relations, environmentalists said.
"If they are handing over the keys to a working car that they are planning on commercially producing, then we'll be very excited," said Gail Ruderman Feuer, senior attorney for the environmental group the Natural Resources Defense Council.
Spallino said his concern for the environment led him to buy his natural gas-powered Honda GX and to agree to road test the FCX.
"I like to set an example where I can in showing that individuals make a difference," he said.
Copyright 2005 Knight Ridder
-- LP
"We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills."
Franklin Delano Roosevelt State of the Union Address - 1942
Greg Carr - 30 Jun 2005 17:59 GMT > California Family Giving >Long-term Test Drive to Hydrogen Car [quoted text clipped - 106 lines] > >Copyright 2005 Knight Ridder http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0501/14/autos-60181.htm
Hydrogen buses are being produced as well but they cost 4 times that of a diesel bus. Would be great to see consumers have options that are affordable in order to end the reliance on fossil fuels. Then watch the haze over the Fraser Valley disappear.
LeMod Pol - 30 Jun 2005 23:35 GMT > http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0501/14/autos-60181.htm > > Hydrogen buses are being produced as well but they cost 4 times that > of a diesel bus. Would be great to see consumers have options that are > affordable in order to end the reliance on fossil fuels. Then watch > the haze over the Fraser Valley disappear. as soon as the volume increases sufficiently for assembly line production prices will drop and fuel stops will multiply.
I think the article was a PR handout to AP. -- it has that style - It does not deal with the comparable operating costs. It could be that capital cost, maintenance and fuel over the life of the vehicle might balance out or be less than the deisel vehicle.
-- LP
"We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills."
Franklin Delano Roosevelt State of the Union Address - 1942
DTJ - 30 Jun 2005 23:38 GMT >Hydrogen buses are being produced as well but they cost 4 times that >of a diesel bus. Would be great to see consumers have options that are >affordable in order to end the reliance on fossil fuels. Then watch >the haze over the Fraser Valley disappear. Damn. Do you understand that you can cut the pages and pages of sh.t that have no relevance to your post?
Larry Bud - 30 Jun 2005 18:52 GMT > California Family Giving > Long-term Test Drive to Hydrogen Car > > TORRANCE, Calif. - No-pollution cars powered by > hydrogen fuel cells are at least a decade away for > most people - but not one California family. All you have to do is read the first sentence of this slanted story. No such thing as a "no pollution" car. There are manufacturing and fuel delivery/creation process that pollute.
LeMod Pol - 30 Jun 2005 23:56 GMT original newsgroup restored
> > California Family Giving > > Long-term Test Drive to Hydrogen Car [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > away for most people - but not one > > California family.
> All you have to do is read the first sentence of this slanted story. Of course - it was a Honda PR piece fed to AP via the Detroit News
> No such thing as a "no pollution" car. Kindly explain how you arrive at that?
> There are manufacturing and > fuel delivery/creation process that pollute. That has nothing to do with the operation of the vehicle
-- LP
"We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills."
Franklin Delano Roosevelt State of the Union Address - 1942
Bernard Farquart - 02 Jul 2005 04:19 GMT >> No such thing as a "no pollution" car. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > That has nothing to do with the operation of the > vehicle It has to do with the life cycle of the vehicle, do you think producing a new hydrogen powered vehicle, and fueling it has no pollution impact?
Do you think it has more or less of an impact than driving a vehicle that is twenty years old, perhaps on Biodiesel, if you by a nice 300sd?
I would agree that there is no such thing as a "no pollution vehicle" unless you have your head deeply within the shiny literature from the manufacturer.
Bernard
LeMod Pol - 02 Jul 2005 19:46 GMT > >> No such thing as a "no pollution" car. > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > > It has to do with the life cycle of the vehicle, perhaps you can enlarge on this so that it might make some sense
do you
> think producing a new hydrogen powered vehicle, Perhaps less than producing an internal combustion engine powered vehicle
> and fueling it has no pollution impact? explain the difference/impact of fueling internal combustion engines with LNG, gasoline or diesel and fuelling nitrogen/electric vehicles
-- LP
"We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills."
Franklin Delano Roosevelt State of the Union Address - 1942
Bernard Farquart - 03 Jul 2005 04:23 GMT >> It has to do with the life cycle of the vehicle, > > perhaps you can enlarge on this so that it might > make some sense I believe you are being intentionally obtuse, maybe just a bit?
> do you >> think producing a new hydrogen powered vehicle, > > Perhaps less than producing an internal combustion > engine powered vehicle What about producing *no new vehicle at all?* You see, the concept is to use what is already there, in a more responsible way, not to produce new plastic crap that is now in vouge, to feel like you are "doing something"
>> and fueling it has no pollution impact? > > explain the difference/impact of fueling internal > combustion engines with LNG, gasoline or diesel > and fuelling nitrogen/electric vehicles New fuels require new fueling facilities, new construction, use of resources, etc..
Daniel J. Stern - 04 Jul 2005 22:53 GMT > What about producing *no new vehicle at all?* You see, the concept is to > use what is already there, in a more responsible way, not to produce new > plastic crap that is now in vouge, to feel like you are "doing > something" No, now remember, BF, "reduce - reuse - recycle" applies to everything *except* cars older than [insert arbitrary model year here], which are dirty and reprehensible and gross and responsible for three hundred and twelve percent of the air pollution problem, etc. etc.
DS
The Real Bev - 05 Jul 2005 01:36 GMT > > What about producing *no new vehicle at all?* You see, the concept is to > > use what is already there, in a more responsible way, not to produce new [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > dirty and reprehensible and gross and responsible for three hundred and > twelve percent of the air pollution problem, etc. etc. Especially in California.
 Signature Cheers, Bev ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is.
LeMod Pol - 05 Jul 2005 03:19 GMT > >> It has to do with the life cycle of the vehicle, > > > > perhaps you can enlarge on this so that it might > > make some sense > > I believe you are being intentionally obtuse, maybe just a bit? No - you are being intentionally stupid, just a lot?
> > do you > >> think producing a new hydrogen powered vehicle, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > What about producing *no new vehicle at all?* So what will be used for transportation?
> You see, the concept is to use what is already there, in > a more responsible way, not to produce new plastic > crap that is now in vouge, to feel like you are "doing > something" What nonsense
> >> and fueling it has no pollution impact? > > > > explain the difference/impact of fueling internal > > combustion engines with LNG, gasoline or diesel > > and fuelling nitrogen/electric vehicles
> New fuels require new fueling facilities, > new construction, use of resources, etc.. All fuels need upgraded facilities from time to time as do residences, offices sports facilities, parks ...
get your junior high teachers to explain the differences in the environmental impacts of various things.
to build a fuelling depot of any kind has little environmental impact and can last for 30 to 60 years with minimal maintenance.
The fuel it dispenses will have its impact over that entire period
-- LP
"We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills."
Franklin Delano Roosevelt State of the Union Address - 1942
Brent P - 05 Jul 2005 05:30 GMT >> What about producing *no new vehicle at all?*
> So what will be used for transportation? The environmental impact of restoring/restomoding or otherwise breathing new life into an existing car is much smaller than making a new car. So much smaller that one could drive that old car for many years before both have an equal impact from the same point in time.
For whatever reason the only thing that is considered with cars is tailpipe emissions of some select compounds. Everything else in the process is neglected and making policy by only considering one aspect can lead to incprect action.
LeMod Pol - 05 Jul 2005 17:23 GMT > >> What about producing *no new vehicle at all?* > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > much smaller that one could drive that old car for many years before both > have an equal impact from the same point in time. That is is wishful thinking at best.
Do you have some data to prove your point? Do you have personal experience in restoring automobiles?
BTW - I do!
> For whatever reason the only thing that is considered with cars is > tailpipe emissions of some select compounds. Everything else in the > process is neglected and making policy by only considering one aspect can > lead to incprect action. What makes you think that "the only thing that is considered with cars is tailpipe emissions of some select compounds".
You are very confused - mixing automobile operations with manufacturing. They do not mix.
BTW-- you need to be more careful with your followup posts -- you have screwed up your quotes and and their attributions -- and your original text so that the readers must guess who wrote what and in fact guess what you mean to say. If you presented that as a paper in your freshman economics class the best it would garner would be a mercy "D"
-- LP
Keep on broadcasting the faeces of the male bovine animal, and pray that the excrement never hits the portable cooling device
Bernard Farquart - 05 Jul 2005 05:36 GMT >> >> It has to do with the life cycle of the vehicle, >> > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > No - you are being intentionally stupid, just a lot? I'm sorry, does your position consist of "neener-neener"?
>> > do you >> >> think producing a new hydrogen powered vehicle, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > What nonsense Ah, it does.
>> >> and fueling it has no pollution impact? >> > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > differences in the environmental impacts of > various things. Uh huh, what cogent reasoning.
LeMod Pol - 05 Jul 2005 17:36 GMT > >> >> It has to do with the life cycle of the vehicle, > >> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I'm sorry, does your position consist of "neener-neener"? No to whatever that means == But i would guess that yours is.
-- LP
There are three types of people that you_can_not_talk into behaving well. The stupid, the religious fanatic, and the evil.
1- The stupid aren't smart enough to follow the logic of what you say. You have to tell them what is right in very simple terms. If they don't agree, then you'll never be able to change their mind.
Bernard Farquart - 06 Jul 2005 03:27 GMT >> >> >> It has to do with the life cycle of the vehicle, >> >> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > No to whatever that means == But i would guess > that yours is. Read for context, you may just learn english yet.
Bernard
LeMod Pol - 06 Jul 2005 17:39 GMT > >> >> >> It has to do with the life cycle of the vehicle, > >> >> > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Read for context, you may just learn english yet. LOL
-- LP
There are three types of people that you_can_not_talk into behaving well. The stupid, the religious fanatic, and the evil.
1- The stupid aren't smart enough to follow the logic of what you say. You have to tell them what is right in very simple terms. If they don't agree, then you'll never be able to change their mind.
2- the religious fanatic If what you say goes against their religious belief, they will cling to that religious belief even if it means their death."
3- The evil There is no way to convince the terrorists, serial killers, pedophiles, and predators to change their evil ways. They knew what they were doing was wrong, but that knowledge didn't stop them. It only made them more careful in how they went about performing their evil acts.
Dave - 30 Jun 2005 20:52 GMT > But the biggest difference is in the fuel tank. > The FCX uses hydrogen gas instead of gasoline and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > least five years but can be used by government > vehicles and now the Spallinos. OK, it's a start. Now if they can double the range without sacrificing any more interior or cargo room, they might have something there. -Dave
BlackWater - 01 Jul 2005 00:46 GMT >> But the biggest difference is in the fuel tank. >> The FCX uses hydrogen gas instead of gasoline and [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >OK, it's a start. Now if they can double the range without sacrificing any >more interior or cargo room, they might have something there. -Dave I'm more interested in what happens when they find the tank is running low and they're 100 miles away from a hydrogen filling-station.
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