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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / July 2005

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CA Family Giving Long-term Test Drive to Hydrogen Car

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LeMod Pol - 30 Jun 2005 07:49 GMT


        California Family Giving      
Long-term Test Drive to Hydrogen Car

TORRANCE, Calif. - No-pollution cars powered by
hydrogen fuel cells are at least a decade away for
most people - but not one California family.

In a long-term road test, John Spallino, his wife
and two daughters will begin leasing a
silver-and-blue, four-seat Honda FCX on Wednesday
to get them to work, school and anywhere else they
want to roam.

The Spallinos will provide reports about the car's
performance to Honda as part of the auto
industry's first private test of the promising
technology that produces only one byproduct -
water clean enough to drink.

"Maybe this is the technology of the future. Maybe
it isn't," said the easygoing Spallino, a
financial officer who plans to use the FCX for his
80-mile roundtrip commute from his home in Redondo
Beach to Irvine.

"But if I can be part of the evolution of this
technology, that would be a lot of fun," he said.

The test could give a push to pollution-free cars,
said Lindsay Brooke, a senior analyst for CSM
Worldwide, an automotive forecasting company.

"It's impact really is in being one small but very
meaningful step in the road toward these vehicles
being a production reality," Brooke said.

Honda, however, won't say when it might mass
market the FCX, which is now built one by one
without the economic efficiency of an assembly line.

Honda chose the Spallinos for the test in part
because they already own a Honda Civic GX powered
by natural gas and are accustomed to the
inconvenience of finding fueling stations that
provide alternatives to gasoline.

The family will pay $500 a month to lease the FCX.
That includes maintenance and insurance on the car
that cost Honda more than $1 million to design and
build using technology that turns hydrogen and
oxygen into electricity.

Government agencies and universities have tested
hydrogen vehicles for Honda and other automakers
in the past, but the FCX will be the first
hydrogen fuel cell car in private hands.

It meets all government safety standards and
drives like a regular car, though its electric hum
is quieter than a gas engine. The FCX accelerates
and maintains speeds comparable to
gasoline-powered vehicles.

One difference can be found in the trunk. The
Spallinos will have to pack light because their
new car has less than a third of the trunk space
of a typical car.

But the biggest difference is in the fuel tank.
The FCX uses hydrogen gas instead of gasoline and
can only go about 190 miles on a tank of fuel.

There are now about 30 hydrogen fueling stations
across the country, with more than half of them in
California. But Spallino counts at least four on
his way to work, including one at Honda's U.S.
headquarters in Torrance and another at Los
Angeles International Airport.

The LAX station won't open to the public for at
least five years but can be used by government
vehicles and now the Spallinos.

President Bush, California Gov. Arnold
Schwarzenegger and others say cars run by
converting hydrogen to electricity will one day
wean the nation of its oil dependence while
reducing air pollution.

Environmentalists counter that some automakers are
using that promise to avoid improving fuel
efficiency in current models. But Honda's record
of making gas-electric hybrid cars suggests it's
as interested in research and development as in
public relations, environmentalists said.

"If they are handing over the keys to a working
car that they are planning on commercially
producing, then we'll be very excited," said Gail
Ruderman Feuer, senior attorney for the
environmental group the Natural Resources Defense Council.

Spallino said his concern for the environment led
him to buy his natural gas-powered Honda GX and to
agree to road test the FCX.

"I like to set an example where I can in showing
that individuals make a difference," he said.

Copyright 2005 Knight Ridder

--
LP

"We are fighting today for security, for progress,
and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all
men, not only for one generation but for all
generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world
of ancient evils, ancient ills."

Franklin Delano Roosevelt
State of the Union Address - 1942
Greg Carr - 30 Jun 2005 17:59 GMT
>        California Family Giving      
>Long-term Test Drive to Hydrogen Car
[quoted text clipped - 106 lines]
>
>Copyright 2005 Knight Ridder
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0501/14/autos-60181.htm

Hydrogen buses are being produced as well but they cost 4 times that
of a diesel bus. Would be great to see consumers have options that are
affordable in order to end the reliance on fossil fuels. Then watch
the haze over the Fraser Valley disappear.
LeMod Pol - 30 Jun 2005 23:35 GMT
> http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0501/14/autos-60181.htm
>
> Hydrogen buses are being produced as well but they cost 4 times that
> of a diesel bus. Would be great to see consumers have options that are
> affordable in order to end the reliance on fossil fuels. Then watch
> the haze over the Fraser Valley disappear.

as soon as the volume increases sufficiently for
assembly line production prices will drop  and
fuel stops will multiply.

I think the article was a PR handout to AP. -- it
has that style - It does not deal with the
comparable operating costs. It could be that
capital cost, maintenance and fuel over the life
of the vehicle might balance out or be less than
the deisel vehicle.

--
LP

"We are fighting today for security, for progress,
and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all
men, not only for one generation but for all
generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world
of ancient evils, ancient ills."

Franklin Delano Roosevelt
State of the Union Address - 1942
DTJ - 30 Jun 2005 23:38 GMT
>Hydrogen buses are being produced as well but they cost 4 times that
>of a diesel bus. Would be great to see consumers have options that are
>affordable in order to end the reliance on fossil fuels. Then watch
>the haze over the Fraser Valley disappear.

Damn.  Do you understand that you can cut the pages and pages of sh.t
that have no relevance to your post?
Larry Bud - 30 Jun 2005 18:52 GMT
> California Family Giving
> Long-term Test Drive to Hydrogen Car
>
> TORRANCE, Calif. - No-pollution cars powered by
> hydrogen fuel cells are at least a decade away for
> most people - but not one California family.

All you have to do is read the first sentence of this slanted story.
No such thing as a "no pollution" car.  There are manufacturing and
fuel delivery/creation process that pollute.
LeMod Pol - 30 Jun 2005 23:56 GMT
original newsgroup restored

> > California Family Giving
> > Long-term Test Drive to Hydrogen Car
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > away for most people - but not one
> > California family.

> All you have to do is read the first sentence of this slanted story.

Of course - it was a Honda PR piece fed to AP via
the Detroit News

> No such thing as a "no pollution" car.

Kindly explain how you arrive at that?

> There are manufacturing and
> fuel delivery/creation process that pollute.

That has nothing to do with the operation of the
vehicle

--
LP

"We are fighting today for security, for progress,
and for peace, not only for
ourselves but for all men, not only for
one generation but for all generations.
We are fighting to cleanse the world
of ancient evils, ancient ills."

Franklin Delano Roosevelt
State of the Union Address - 1942
Bernard Farquart - 02 Jul 2005 04:19 GMT
>> No such thing as a "no pollution" car.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> That has nothing to do with the operation of the
> vehicle

It has to do with the life cycle of the vehicle, do you
think producing a new hydrogen powered vehicle,
and fueling it has no pollution impact?

Do you think it has more or less of an impact
than driving a vehicle that is twenty years old,
perhaps on Biodiesel, if you by a nice 300sd?

I would agree that there is no such thing as
a "no pollution vehicle" unless you have your
head deeply within the shiny literature from the
manufacturer.

Bernard
LeMod Pol - 02 Jul 2005 19:46 GMT
> >> No such thing as a "no pollution" car.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> >
> It has to do with the life cycle of the vehicle,

perhaps you can enlarge on this so that it might
make some sense

do you
> think producing a new hydrogen powered vehicle,

Perhaps less than producing an internal combustion
engine powered vehicle

> and fueling it has no pollution impact?

explain the difference/impact of fueling internal
combustion engines with LNG, gasoline or diesel
and fuelling nitrogen/electric vehicles

--
LP

"We are fighting today for security, for progress,
and for peace, not only for
ourselves but for all men, not only for
one generation but for all generations.
We are fighting to cleanse the world
of ancient evils, ancient ills."

Franklin Delano Roosevelt
State of the Union Address - 1942
Bernard Farquart - 03 Jul 2005 04:23 GMT
>> It has to do with the life cycle of the vehicle,
>
> perhaps you can enlarge on this so that it might
> make some sense

I believe you are being intentionally obtuse, maybe just a bit?

> do you
>> think producing a new hydrogen powered vehicle,
>
> Perhaps less than producing an internal combustion
> engine powered vehicle

What about producing *no new vehicle at all?*
You see, the concept is to use what is already there, in
a more responsible way, not to produce new plastic
crap that is now in vouge, to feel like you are "doing
something"

>> and fueling it has no pollution impact?
>
> explain the difference/impact of fueling internal
> combustion engines with LNG, gasoline or diesel
> and fuelling nitrogen/electric vehicles
New fuels require new fueling facilities,
new construction, use of resources, etc..
Daniel J. Stern - 04 Jul 2005 22:53 GMT
> What about producing *no new vehicle at all?* You see, the concept is to
> use what is already there, in a more responsible way, not to produce new
> plastic crap that is now in vouge, to feel like you are "doing
> something"

No, now remember, BF, "reduce - reuse - recycle" applies to everything
*except* cars older than [insert arbitrary model year here], which are
dirty and reprehensible and gross and responsible for three hundred and
twelve percent of the air pollution problem, etc. etc.

DS
The Real Bev - 05 Jul 2005 01:36 GMT
> > What about producing *no new vehicle at all?* You see, the concept is to
> > use what is already there, in a more responsible way, not to produce new
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> dirty and reprehensible and gross and responsible for three hundred and
> twelve percent of the air pollution problem, etc. etc.

Especially in California.

Signature

Cheers,
Bev
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is.

LeMod Pol - 05 Jul 2005 03:19 GMT
> >> It has to do with the life cycle of the vehicle,
> >
> > perhaps you can enlarge on this so that it might
> > make some sense
>
> I believe you are being intentionally obtuse, maybe just a bit?

No - you are being intentionally stupid, just a lot?

> > do you
> >> think producing a new hydrogen powered vehicle,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> >
> What about producing *no new vehicle at all?*

So what will be used for transportation?

> You see, the concept is to use what is already there, in
> a more responsible way, not to produce new plastic
> crap that is now in vouge, to feel like you are "doing
> something"

What nonsense

> >> and fueling it has no pollution impact?
> >
> > explain the difference/impact of fueling internal
> > combustion engines with LNG, gasoline or diesel
> > and fuelling nitrogen/electric vehicles

> New fuels require new fueling facilities,
> new construction, use of resources, etc..

All fuels need upgraded facilities from time to
time as do residences, offices sports facilities,
parks ...  

get your junior high teachers to explain the
differences in the environmental impacts of
various things.

to build a fuelling depot of any kind has little
environmental impact and can last for 30 to 60
years with minimal maintenance.

The fuel it dispenses will have its impact over
that entire period

--
LP

"We are fighting today for security, for progress,
and for peace, not only for
ourselves but for all men, not only for
one generation but for all generations.
We are fighting to cleanse the world
of ancient evils, ancient ills."

Franklin Delano Roosevelt
State of the Union Address - 1942
Brent P - 05 Jul 2005 05:30 GMT
>> What about producing *no new vehicle at all?*

> So what will be used for transportation?

The environmental impact of restoring/restomoding or otherwise breathing
new life into an existing car is much smaller than making a new car. So
much smaller that one could drive that old car for many years before both
have an equal impact from the same point in time.

For whatever reason the only thing that is considered with cars is
tailpipe emissions of some select compounds. Everything else in the
process is neglected and making policy by only considering one aspect can
lead to incprect action.
LeMod Pol - 05 Jul 2005 17:23 GMT
> >> What about producing *no new vehicle at all?*
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> much smaller that one could drive that old car for many years before both
> have an equal impact from the same point in time.

That is is wishful thinking at best.

Do you have some data to prove your point?  
Do you have personal experience in restoring automobiles?

BTW - I do!

> For whatever reason the only thing that is considered with cars is
> tailpipe emissions of some select compounds. Everything else in the
> process is neglected and making policy by only considering one aspect can
> lead to incprect action.

What makes you think that "the only thing that is
considered with cars is tailpipe emissions of some
select compounds".

You are very confused - mixing automobile
operations with manufacturing. They do not mix.

BTW-- you need to be more careful with your
followup posts -- you have screwed up your quotes
and and their attributions -- and your original
text so that the readers must guess who wrote what
and in fact guess what you mean to say.  If you
presented that as a paper in your freshman
economics class the best it would garner would be
a mercy "D"

--
LP

Keep on  broadcasting the faeces of the
male bovine animal, and pray that the
excrement never hits the portable
cooling device
Bernard Farquart - 05 Jul 2005 05:36 GMT
>> >> It has to do with the life cycle of the vehicle,
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> No - you are being intentionally stupid, just a lot?

I'm sorry, does your position consist of "neener-neener"?

>> > do you
>> >> think producing a new hydrogen powered vehicle,
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> What nonsense

Ah, it does.

>> >> and fueling it has no pollution impact?
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> differences in the environmental impacts of
> various things.

Uh huh, what cogent reasoning.
LeMod Pol - 05 Jul 2005 17:36 GMT
> >> >> It has to do with the life cycle of the vehicle,
> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I'm sorry, does your position consist of "neener-neener"?

No to whatever that means == But i would guess
that yours is.

--
LP

There are three types of people that
you_can_not_talk into behaving well. The
stupid, the religious fanatic, and the evil.

1- The stupid aren't smart enough to follow
the logic of what you say. You have to tell
them what is right in very simple terms. If
they don't agree, then you'll never be able
to change their mind.
Bernard Farquart - 06 Jul 2005 03:27 GMT
>> >> >> It has to do with the life cycle of the vehicle,
>> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> No to whatever that means == But i would guess
> that yours is.

Read for context, you may just learn english yet.

Bernard
LeMod Pol - 06 Jul 2005 17:39 GMT
> >> >> >> It has to do with the life cycle of the vehicle,
> >> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Read for context, you may just learn english yet.

LOL

--
LP

There are three types of people that
you_can_not_talk into behaving well. The
stupid, the religious fanatic, and the evil.

1- The stupid aren't smart enough to follow
the logic of what you say. You have to tell
them what is right in very simple terms. If
they don't agree, then you'll never be able
to change their mind.

2- the religious fanatic
If what you say goes against their
religious belief, they will cling to that
religious belief even if it means their
death."

3- The evil
There is no way to convince the terrorists,
serial killers, pedophiles, and predators
to change their evil ways. They knew what
they were doing was wrong, but that
knowledge didn't stop them. It only made
them more careful in how they went about
performing their evil acts.
Dave - 30 Jun 2005 20:52 GMT
> But the biggest difference is in the fuel tank.
> The FCX uses hydrogen gas instead of gasoline and
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> least five years but can be used by government
> vehicles and now the Spallinos.

OK, it's a start.  Now if they can double the range without sacrificing any
more interior or cargo room, they might have something there.  -Dave
BlackWater - 01 Jul 2005 00:46 GMT
>> But the biggest difference is in the fuel tank.
>> The FCX uses hydrogen gas instead of gasoline and
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>OK, it's a start.  Now if they can double the range without sacrificing any
>more interior or cargo room, they might have something there.  -Dave

  I'm more interested in what happens when they
  find the tank is running low and they're 100
  miles away from a hydrogen filling-station.
 
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