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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / July 2005British traffic signal lights
On TV news footage from London today I noticed something unusual about the traffic lights. A couple times I saw the lights change from red and yellow (both illuminated) to green. I have never seen such a thing here in the States. What does simultaneous red and yellow mean in Britain?  SignaturePaul Hirose <iszintjv55@earINVALIDthlink.net> To reply by email remove INVALID > On TV news footage from London today I noticed something unusual about the > traffic lights. A couple times I saw the lights change from red and yellow > (both illuminated) to green. I have never seen such a thing here in the > States. What does simultaneous red and yellow mean in Britain? It's the opposite of a yellow light in the US, I believe. In other words, it's saying that green is coming soon. Keep in mind that most cars over there are supposedly manual transmissions, and parking brakes must be set at traffic lights. -Dave >> On TV news footage from London today I noticed something unusual about the >> traffic lights. A couple times I saw the lights change from red and yellow [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >there are supposedly manual transmissions, and parking brakes must be set at >traffic lights. -Dave I have driven standard transmission cars in the US for the past 22 years (automatic for only 3) and I cannot recall a single incident when I needed a "get ready" feature. I have also driven in much of Western Europe without any need for such an aid. I seriously doubt this was the motivation. Also, there is no need to engage the parking brake at a light. If the road is level, just put the car in neutral (as most of us do). If you are on a slope, stand on a brake (as automatic drivers always do). If you have trouble getting into gear at a traffic light, you have serious problems when you need to moved into second gear! SignatureSurendar Jeyadev jeyadev1@wrc.xerox.com The 1 in the email address is fake > On TV news footage from London today I noticed something unusual about the > traffic lights. A couple times I saw the lights change from red and yellow > (both illuminated) to green. I have never seen such a thing here in the > States. What does simultaneous red and yellow mean in Britain? When I was very young (cica 1959) the traffic lights in my home town worked like that. The yellow light came on on both the green and red sides of the light at the same time. Back then it did not casue any problems. However, given the way people drive today, I think giving them to much warning of an impending green would increase the frequency of accidents. Between the people trying to beat the red, and the people trying to burn out as soon as the light turns green, I am guessing there would be more collisions. As it is, most of the lights I encounter have a pause between the light turning red on one side and the light turning green in the cross direction. I assume this to allow for people trying to beat the red to clear the intersection. Things would work better if people would show a little patience and just be ready to go after the light turns green, and not try to beat the red. Ed Ed >Things would work better if people would show a little patience and just be >ready to go after the light turns green, and not try to beat the red. An attentive driver waiting at a red light at a familiar intersection will notice when the previous phase is going, and may be in a position to notice whether that phase's light has turned yellow. In that case, s/he can (a) check for likely red light runners, and (b) prepare to go immediately on green if there are no red light runners or others who are slow in clearing the intersection. Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------ Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is provided with this message. > >Things would work better if people would show a little patience and just be > >ready to go after the light turns green, and not try to beat the red. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > immediately on green if there are no red light runners or others who are > slow in clearing the intersection. I bet if the red-yellow were implemented here, we'd see less red light running, reason being that people will get more pissed off and honk more often at RLRs because they're already ready to go when the RLR flies in front of their nose... 'course a few of them might get creamed in the process, but such is life... nate (they deserve it) > > >Things would work better if people would show a little patience and just be > > >ready to go after the light turns green, and not try to beat the red. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > 'course a few of them might get creamed in the process, but such is > life... There is actually several seconds pause when all lights are red to allow the junction to clear in the UK. The red+amber is indeed intended to allow you to slip the car into gear again and release the handbrake before setting off on green. Graham > There is actually several seconds pause when all lights are red to allow > the junction to clear in the UK. In North America, clearance time (during which all traffic has a red light) is an optional and variable traffic light mode. Colorado has had clearance time built into all intersections for at least two and a half decades. I learned to drive there and did so for many years. When I moved to Oregon, it was a real shock to discover that there's no such clearance time there. Ditto many intersections in Michigan, and many in Ontario. Relatively long yellows and a few seconds' clearance time are known and robustly shown to cut red-light running and related injury, death and property damage dramatically, usually down to negligible levels. That we mess around with any other "countermeasure" is telling and sad. > I bet if the red-yellow were implemented here, we'd see less red light > running, reason being that people will get more pissed off and honk [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > (they deserve it) Actually, it would have the effect of lowering the frequency of people sleeping on green. -Dave Hi, Yes, red-yellow means green-imminent. Generally: if you're on pole, raise revs to over 5k and get ready to dump the clutch! Cheers, John. > Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:55:37 GMT > From: Paul Hirose <iszintjv55@earINVALIDthlink.net> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > (both illuminated) to green. I have never seen such a thing here in the > States. What does simultaneous red and yellow mean in Britain? Signature****************************************************************** Helsinki Institute of Physics Technology Program CERN, Geneva, Switzerland. tel. +41 (0)22 767-7543 ****************************************************************** so it's like a yellow light on a heads-up christmas tree then :) nate John.Wh...@cern.ch wrote: > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > ****************************************************************** I does mean get ready to go and once you have passed your test there is no need to have the emergency brake while seating at traffic lights and 99% of people do not do this. I loved the comment about since most cars are manual, it amazes how many america drivers take forever to move when the light turns green and the intersection is clear and I know that they are driving an automatic. I think this why it takes two tries to get through traffic lights and it does not help that 99% of the roadways use traffic lights and stop signs. > On TV news footage from London today I noticed something unusual about the > traffic lights. A couple times I saw the lights change from red and yellow > (both illuminated) to green. I have never seen such a thing here in the > States. What does simultaneous red and yellow mean in Britain? > I does mean get ready to go and once you have passed your test there is no > need to have the emergency brake while seating at traffic lights and 99% of > people do not do this. I'd disagree with your 99% figure. Somewhere either side of 50% depending on situation and driver preference. If you're waiting on a hill, setting the handbrake is virtually essential. If the lights have just turned red, it's normally more comfortable to select neutral and set the brake than wait in gear with both clutch and footbake depressed. Both styles are used. > I loved the comment about since most cars are manual, it amazes how many > america drivers take forever to move when the light turns green and the > intersection is clear and I know that they are driving an automatic. I > think this why it takes two tries to get through traffic lights and it does > not help that 99% of the roadways use traffic lights and stop signs. No-one round here is slow to move off and manual gearbox equipped cars pull away much faster than any automatic I've been in. Graham >I does mean get ready to go and once you have passed your test there is no >need to have the emergency brake while seating at traffic lights and 99% of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > think this why it takes two tries to get through traffic lights and it > does not help that 99% of the roadways use traffic lights and stop signs. Well, the automatic tranny doesn't help much. A manual tranny will clear an intersection (from a dead stop) faster, every time, unless the driver is totally incompetent. I agree that there are way too many traffic lights and stop signs over here. One stop sign in particular that I hit every day on the way home is ultra annoying. It's on a 50MPH road that merges into a 55MPH road, running roughly parallel in the same direction. Traffic on BOTH roads is doing about 60MPH (usually), and traffic approaching the merge point can see traffic approaching on the other roadway for a good half mile. So you go 60MPH approaching merge point, see that there is NO TRAFFIC ON THE OTHER ROAD, come to a complete stop, see that THERE IS STILL NO TRAFFIC ON THE OTHER ROAD, then accelerate back to 60MPH. Talk about a waste of time and fuel. And people wonder why pollution is such a huge problem. -Dave > I does mean get ready to go and once you have passed your test there is > no need to have the emergency brake while seating at traffic lights and > 99% of people do not do this. Believe it or not, there are complaints being registered with British authorities about glare from brake lights of vehicles waiting at red lights. There's a public outcry against what is considered the lazy and improper procedure of using the service brake rather than the emergency/parking/handbrake at red lights. The amusing thing is that UK-spec (ECE) brake lights are permitted to be only a little over half as intense as US-spec (SAE) brake lights. > I loved the comment about since most cars are manual, it amazes how many > america drivers take forever to move when the light turns green and the > intersection is clear and I know that they are driving an automatic. Why should this amaze you? Americans don't pay attention to their driving, and even when they do, hesitation is warranted as there is always the likelihood that some other bubbleheaded bleach-blonde (of either sex) will be too busy yacking on a celphone or too self-impressed with his choice of SUV to be bothered stopping for the opposing red light, > think this why it takes two tries to get through traffic lights and it > does not help that 99% of the roadways use traffic lights and stop > signs. Um...huh? There are no intersections with "traffic lights and stop signs". It's one or the other. Opps I meant to say OR forgive me for a little mistake and the prev posts seem to have understood what I meant. Actually never heard of an outcry about brake lights and nearly all the people I know over in the UK which is many do not use the emergency brake and I used to live there for 28 years of my life and 11 was driving. Also most people do not really apply the emergency brake on a hill unless rather steep, as we have nearly all master moving off the help by knowing when the clutch bite point. Also I did say it still takes them sometime to move even after the intersection is CLEAR. I have to disagree with the manual been faster as I have both and it's amazing just take the foot off the brake and hit the accelerator pedal and away you go instead of release the clutch until bite point is reached, then release brake, press accelerator and release clutch o that seems like a lit bit longer. Plus when driving an auto make sure you press the accelerator pedal more than 1mm usually to the floor is good. I love the people you also are 2 footed drivers and rest there foot on the brake pedal and wonder why they need an oil and brake pad change every 3000 miles, my wife and I cannot stop laughing when we see that one. O and I love how people are just driving along and feel the need to hit the brake which causes everyone else to brake since they are not looking 10 seconds ahead and then you have a lovely traffic slow down. Well that's what happens in WA state and I have lived here 4 years. CA state did not notice it too much but I only lived there for 5 months and it was out in the country. Well that's my main problems with driving in the U.S and that's a weight off my back at least until I have to go to work:) I guess I need to get back to the Scotland as driving here is driving me nuts:) >> I does mean get ready to go and once you have passed your test there is >> no need to have the emergency brake while seating at traffic lights and [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Um...huh? There are no intersections with "traffic lights and stop signs". > It's one or the other. > Opps I meant to say OR forgive me for a little mistake and the prev posts > seem to have understood what I meant. > > Actually never heard of an outcry about brake lights Me neither. > and nearly all the > people I know over in the UK which is many do not use the emergency brake You *are* kidding right ? It's the handbrake btw. It has no relationship whatever to *emergencies*. It is used in normal driving and you'll fail your driving test if you don't use it correctly. > and I used to live there for 28 years of my life and 11 was driving. Also > most people do not really apply the emergency brake on a hill unless rather > steep, Utter nonsence ! > as we have nearly all master moving off the help by knowing when the > clutch bite point. How often do you have your clutch plate replaced doing that ? Holding a car on the clutch on a hill for any length of time instead of applying the handbrake is plain berserk. Graham > You *are* kidding right ? It's the handbrake btw. It has no relationship > whatever to *emergencies*. It is used in normal driving and you'll fail your > driving test if you don't use it correctly. Mine is labelled as a parking brake, and I've never had to use mine except when my master cylander died in a 20 year old car. > > and I used to live there for 28 years of my life and 11 was driving. Also > > most people do not really apply the emergency brake on a hill unless rather > > steep, > > Utter nonsence ! Do your normal brakes not work? I've taken my Honda Civic on almost any type of road (or not-a-road) that you can find, and never once have felt even the slightest urge to use my parking brake while moving. > > as we have nearly all master moving off the help by knowing when the > > clutch bite point. > > How often do you have your clutch plate replaced doing that ? Holding a car on > the clutch on a hill for any length of time instead of applying the handbrake is > plain berserk. I have a slushbox. I take my foot off the gas going downhill, it goes the same speed I was going and my transmission feels brand new after 100,000 miles. Yeah, steep hills take a tiny bit of brakes, but even the steepest hills I find in the US never require my parking brake to get down. Hell, even with a pickup I never had to use my parking brake, even off-roading. The brakes worked great till Evans Tires f.cked them up. (Evans causing my truck to get totalled is another story though.) Dave > > You *are* kidding right ? It's the handbrake btw. It has no relationship > > whatever to *emergencies*. It is used in normal driving and you'll fail your > > driving test if you don't use it correctly. > > Mine is labelled as a parking brake, and I've never had to use mine > except when my master cylander died in a 20 year old car. Clearly you're not in the UK then. I was referring to the UK driving test. Pls pay attention to the thread. It has *British* in it. > > > and I used to live there for 28 years of my life and 11 was driving. Also > > > most people do not really apply the emergency brake on a hill unless rather [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > any type of road (or not-a-road) that you can find, and never once have > felt even the slightest urge to use my parking brake while moving. You *never* use it whilst moving unless you want to perform a handbrake turn ! Read above. It's used when stationary especially on a hill ! > > > as we have nearly all master moving off the help by knowing when the > > > clutch bite point. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the steepest hills I find in the US never require my parking brake to > get down. You *never* use the parking / hand brake in motion ! Just the footbrake - the same as you do. > Hell, even with a pickup I never had to use my parking brake, even > off-roading. The brakes worked great till Evans Tires f.cked them up. > (Evans causing my truck to get totalled is another story though.) Autoboxes aren't popular in Europe generally. I guess we like the more engaging and sportier style of driving that a manual box gives. Manual transmissions don't wear out either btw, in fact they're noted for longevity. Btw, if you *never* use your parking brake how do you know it's still functional ? For that time when you actually *do* need it. Graham > > Mine is labelled as a parking brake, and I've never had to use mine > > except when my master cylander died in a 20 year old car. > > Clearly you're not in the UK then. I was referring to the UK driving test. Pls pay > attention to the thread. It has *British* in it. So everyone in the UK drives a car in such disrepair they can't just use their normal brakes? > > Hell, even with a pickup I never had to use my parking brake, even > > off-roading. The brakes worked great till Evans Tires f.cked them up. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > sportier style of driving that a manual box gives. Manual transmissions don't wear out > either btw, in fact they're noted for longevity. Since I sit in traffic all the time, and I bought the car used, I took what I got and I don't need to dick around with a shifter to get up to 30 mph then stop again in traffic. > Btw, if you *never* use your parking brake how do you know it's still functional ? For > that time when you actually *do* need it. I use it every time I park, as the name implies. Dave Yes it is part of the driving test to use the handbrake in appropriate suggestions like starting off on hills, at stop signs and traffic lights, but how many people in the U.K actually drive that way after passing the test very few. I know of one and that's my mum. All the other drivers I know and that is many since I used to driver for a parcel company and travel with others in company cars never once used there handbrake when stopped at stop signs or traffic lights and only occassionally on steep hills. You must be one of the few that does Pooh bear. O and burning out the clutch I have never once done that and never had to replace a clutch on any car or van or truck I have driving and let me tell you I have driven more miles than I care to remember. I bet if you surveyed every driver that has passed the UK driving test very few would say that they still use there handbrake at a stop sign or traffic lights. Actually why not ask the question to this news group and see what response we get Pooh Bear. >> > Mine is labelled as a parking brake, and I've never had to use mine >> > except when my master cylander died in a 20 year old car. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Dave > > > Mine is labelled as a parking brake, and I've never had to use mine > > > except when my master cylander died in a 20 year old car. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > So everyone in the UK drives a car in such disrepair they can't just > use their normal brakes? You're either trolling or can't read what's been said. In the UK ( in a car with manual transmission ) you use the brake pedal to brake when in motion and set the parking brake when stationary for more than say a few seconds. You can hold the car with the footbrake for sure but if it's for long - such as waiting for lights to change and you're on a hill it makes more sense and feels more comfortable to use the parking ( hand ) brake. Of course if you have an auto box you can select P or wastefully burn fuel in gear. Graham > You're either trolling or can't read what's been said. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to change and you're on a hill it makes more sense and feels more comfortable to use the > parking ( hand ) brake. Ummm, so it's a personal preference thing then? I just don't understand why you give a sh.t if someone uses a pedal brake at a light. It's 20 or 30 seconds, why does it really matter what brake they use? If nothing else, at least the pedal brake lets a bad driver behind you be certain you're stopped. I've been in cars in the US with a number of different British drivers, and not one used their parking brake at stop lights. Same for several Australians/New Zealanders I've been in cars with. And as far as the auto comment, I drive an auto and haven't noticed any fuel usage difference between putting my car in N or leaving it in D at stops, I've checked. Dave > Ummm, so it's a personal preference thing then? I just don't > understand why you give a sh.t if someone uses a pedal brake at a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and not one used their parking brake at stop lights. Same for several > Australians/New Zealanders I've been in cars with. What's your sample space? 80% of the cars in NZ are automatic, I would guess. I use the handbrake 75% of the time for a hill start. The only exceptions are if I anticipate the lights are about to go green (in which case I ride the clutch), or if the hill is so shallow that I can jump my foot from the brake to the throttle with no possibility of trouble. Even then, it is safer to use the handbrake and have no pedals depressed (as well as being a rest for your legs), and I was taught to do that in my official driving lessons. I know a guy who was stopped at lights using your method, and suddenly sneezed and involuntarily let up the clutch, causing him to hit the guy in front. Also I bet I could take off from a stationary position with the handbrake on, far faster than you could with your foot on the regular brake (since that was the original topic under discussion). Even an automatic with LFB would be faster than your method. > And as far as the auto comment, I drive an auto and haven't noticed any > fuel usage difference between putting my car in N or leaving it in D at > stops, I've checked. What method are you using of measuring the difference? An accurate way would be to drain your tank, put in a measured amount of fuel, then idle until it runs out. Repeat, but stand on the brake in D until it runs out. Compare times. > I've been in cars in the US with a number of different British drivers, > and not one used their parking brake at stop lights. Same for several > Australians/New Zealanders I've been in cars with. What's your point? I've been in cars in the US with a number of different British, Australian, Kiwi and South African drivers, and none of them drove on the left side of the street. > > I've been in cars in the US with a number of different British drivers, > > and not one used their parking brake at stop lights. Same for several [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > British, Australian, Kiwi and South African drivers, and none of them > drove on the left side of the street. My point is why do people give a sh.t how someone stops their car? Are their eyes that offended by red lights? Or do they just want to run other people's lives for no good reason? The conversation started as people saying you have to use your handbrake while driving, but nobody's listed one reason to do so after their driver's test other than if you're an idiot you could damage your car. But, if you're an idiot you might also forget to release the parking brake. I guess some people feel they can't get off the line fast enough without using their handbrake, but I don't race so that's not a real concern to me. Dave > > > Mine is labelled as a parking brake, and I've never had to use mine > > > except when my master cylander died in a 20 year old car. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > So everyone in the UK drives a car in such disrepair they can't just > use their normal brakes? You're either trolling or can't read what's been said. In the UK ( in a car with manual transmission ) you use the brake pedal to brake when in motion and set the parking brake when stationary for more than say a few seconds. You can hold the car with the footbrake for sure but if it's for long - such as waiting for lights to change and you're on a hill it makes more sense and feels more comfortable to use the parking ( hand ) brake. Of course if you have an auto box you can select P or wastefully burn fuel in gear. Graham <snip> > > as we have nearly all master moving off the help by knowing when the > > clutch bite point. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Graham He said nothing at all about -holding- the car on the hill with the clutch, only moving off. Anyone who drives a should be be adept at holding a car on hill using the -service- brakes then moving off without rolling back. Jeez, I was doing that back when I was 14 in 1 1/2 trucks, it isn't rocket science. Harry K > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > He said nothing at all about -holding- the car on the hill with the > clutch, only moving off. Somewhere in this thread, one of the posters definitely mentioned *not* using the handbrake *even on a hill*. That therefore implies holding the car on the clutch. > Anyone who drives a should be be adept at > holding a car on hill using the -service- brakes then moving off > without rolling back. Jeez, I was doing that back when I was 14 in 1 > 1/2 trucks, it isn't rocket science. Well... yes. I agree. Apparently 'Dave' seems more concerned about his 'convenience' however. Since he drives an auto it's not the same issue though. Graham >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Somewhere in this thread, one of the posters definitely mentioned *not* using the >handbrake *even on a hill*. That therefore implies holding the car on the clutch. Uhm, the middle pedal is the brake pedal. It doesn't stop working on inclined surfaces... >> Anyone who drives a should be be adept at >> holding a car on hill using the -service- brakes then moving off [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Graham Signature/"\ Jan Kalin (male, preferred languages: Slovene, English) \ / http://charm.zag.si/eng/, email: "name dot surname AT zag dot si" X ASCII ribbon campaign against HTML in mail and postings. / \ I'm a .signature virus. Copy me to help me spread. > Uhm, the middle pedal is the brake pedal. It doesn't stop working on inclined > surfaces... Fine - you bring the vehicle to a halt using the footbrake. To drive off in a vehicle with manual transmission you need to use the accelerator and clutch. If you know of a way of holding the car braked on a hill whilst using the accelerator and clutch that doesn't involve 3 feet please let me know ! Any intelligent person sets the handbrake on a hill after coming to a halt. Thereafter you don't need to use the brake pedal. To set off - engage gear, apply a slight amount of accelerator whilst releasing the clutch and disengaging the handbrake. It's second nature when you've learnt to drive properly. Graham > To drive off in a vehicle with manual transmission you need to use the > accelerator and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Graham You're kidding, right? One of the first things any manual tranny driver -should- learn is how to hold a car steady on an incline using JUST the clutch and accelerator. Once they master that skill, they need to practice releasing the brake pedal and THEN holding the car steady on a hill using just the clutch and accelerator, without rolling backward. For learning purposes ONLY, the hand brake should be used until you get a feel for where your clutch start to "grab" and how much "gas" to give the engine so it doesn't die on you. Now there are a lot of incompetent manual tranny drivers who can NOT hold a car steady on a hill using just the clutch and accelerator pedal. There are also a lot of incompetent manual tranny drivers who can not release the brake pedal on a hill (and not use a hand brake) without rolling backwards. But any competent DRIVER knows that two feet (at most) is all that is needed to hold a car steady on a hill without using any brake (hand or foot), regardless of type of transmission. And FWIW, I've seen some slushboxes that roll backward on hills, also. So holding a car steady on a hill without using a brake is a skill that ANY driver should have, not necessarily just MANUAL tranny drivers. -Dave > > To drive off in a vehicle with manual transmission you need to use the > > accelerator and [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > driver -should- learn is how to hold a car steady on an incline using JUST > the clutch and accelerator. Sure. But you're not meant to do that for minutes one end. The clutch will start burning. > Once they master that skill, they need to > practice releasing the brake pedal and THEN holding the car steady on a hill > using just the clutch and accelerator, without rolling backward. For > learning purposes ONLY, the hand brake should be used until you get a feel > for where your clutch start to "grab" and how much "gas" to give the engine > so it doesn't die on you. In normal driving you're meant to engage the handbrake when pulling up on a hill. When you're ready to move off again, then you go re-engage gear etc.... > Now there are a lot of incompetent manual tranny drivers who can NOT hold a > car steady on a hill using just the clutch and accelerator pedal. There are [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > without using a brake is a skill that ANY driver should have, not > necessarily just MANUAL tranny drivers. -Dave You are *NOT* meant to hold a car with the clutch on a hill indefinitely ! You'll trash the clutch. It's also plain clumsy. Incidentally - stopping with the gear still engaged and clutch depressed also results in unnecessary clutch release bearing wear. Graham >> You're kidding, right? One of the first things any manual tranny >> driver -should- learn is how to hold a car steady on an incline using [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Graham Of course you're not supposed to hold a car on a hill for minutes on end using just the clutch and accelerator pedals. But you are supposed to be ABLE TO!!! Before you learn how to do that, you are dangerous, and probably shouldn't be given a license, unless it is a restricted license, specifying automatic transmission ONLY. But when stopped on a hill, you don't necessarily need to keep the clutch pedal depressed and a forward gear engaged. However, you should STILL be ABLE to take off from a dead stop on a hill without rolling backward and without using a hand brake!!! The leaving the car in gear and clutch pedal depressed is an entirely different topic. It's relatively easy to get a manual tranny vehicle rolling uphill on a steep hill from a dead stop without using a hand brake and without rolling backward. Yes, it takes a little practice, if you've never done it before. But if you can't perform that very basic driving skill, you shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car with a manual tranny. Or for that matter, I'd suggest someone without that skill shouldn't be behind the wheel, period. But that's just IMHO. -Dave > >> You're kidding, right? One of the first things any manual tranny > >> driver -should- learn is how to hold a car steady on an incline using [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > shouldn't be given a license, unless it is a restricted license, specifying > automatic transmission ONLY. Of course I'm *able* to ! I don't intend burning out the clutch in reality however. > But when stopped on a hill, you don't necessarily need to keep the clutch > pedal depressed and a forward gear engaged. I don't. I apply the handbrake and take the car out of gear. That's what you're supposed to do. It makes perfect sense. > However, you should STILL be > ABLE to take off from a dead stop on a hill without rolling backward and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > behind the wheel of a car with a manual tranny. Or for that matter, I'd > suggest someone without that skill shouldn't be behind the wheel, period. What you suggest above isn't normal practice however. Sure, if you plays footsie with the pedals, it can be done, even using the footbrake as well too. Graham > > >> You're kidding, right? One of the first things any manual tranny > > >> driver -should- learn is how to hold a car steady on an incline using [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Graham Okay, basic lesson on starting on a hill with a manual. Hold with foot brake. Engage gear. While holding brake, pivot foot over to gas Feed gas while easing out clutch to 'just begin to grab' point. More gas, more clutch and release brake. That was one of the first lessons I taught my younger siblings back in the 50s. I have never driven a vehicle from econoboxes up to C60s that you couldn't hit both brake and gas with the right foot. Harry K > Okay, basic lesson on starting on a hill with a manual. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Feed gas while easing out clutch to 'just begin to grab' point. > More gas, more clutch and release brake. I *know* this ! Seemingly 'Dave' has trouble believing we do it this way. > That was one of the first lessons I taught my younger siblings back in > the 50s. > > I have never driven a vehicle from econoboxes up to C60s that you > couldn't hit both brake and gas with the right foot. Sounds a bit dodgy to me. Not sure I'd like to do that in heavy traffic. Graham > > Okay, basic lesson on starting on a hill with a manual. > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Graham If you are refering to doing it accidently while moving, no, you have to pivot your foot somewhat sideways to do it, unlikely to happen by accident. I am just going to -have- to try it in the wife's 500 to see if it is possibl works in an auto...that is, can you reach both pedals with the right foot. Harry K >> Okay, basic lesson on starting on a hill with a manual. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I *know* this ! Seemingly 'Dave' has trouble believing we do it this way. This is how I *always* take off from a standing start when on a hill, I have done so in SanFrancisco, and I live in Seattle, where we have a few hills of our own. I consider using the handbrake to be a crutch for the less skilled operator. The sort of thing someone would do who was only used to driving automatics, or someone who did not have the capacity to coordinate foot movements. Bernard >>>Okay, basic lesson on starting on a hill with a manual. >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > was only used to driving automatics, or someone who did not have the > capacity to coordinate foot movements. The few times I've felt that I really needed to use the handbrake were on some of downtown Seattle's steepest hills when it was raining and someone had crept up to within inches of my bumper. Though I can see the reasoning for using the handbrake for every stop, Americans simply aren't taught to do so (if they're even /taught/ to drive a stick at all!). Even if they were taught to do so, most are too lazy to do it every time. Heck, many people around here are too lazy (or never learned) to use the parking brake for actual parking, and just rely on the automatic transmission's parking pawl! Signature~/Garth |"I believe that it is better to tell the truth than a lie. Almgren | I believe it is better to be free than to be a slave. ******* | And I believe it is better to know than to be ignorant." (pgp@v6stang.com for secure mail info) --H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) > Though I can see the reasoning for using the handbrake for every stop, > Americans simply aren't taught to do so (if they're even /taught/ to > drive a stick at all!). Even if they were taught to do so, most are too > lazy to do it every time. I used to not do it at all. Now I do it almost every single time. I am coordinated enough to do a hill start without rolling back more than a few inches at most, but with the parking brake, I don't go back at all. I also can start faster since I don't have to deal with the small degree of velocity in the opposite direction that I want to travel. > Okay, basic lesson on starting on a hill with a manual. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I have never driven a vehicle from econoboxes up to C60s that you > couldn't hit both brake and gas with the right foot. I've never driven a manual where you can do that comfortably. The pedals are about level when they're both not depressed, so if the brake is being held then it is an awkward reach to try and get the throttle too. Especially in Japanese cars that don't have much leg room. It seems to me that there is much more room for error and less control in this technique, than in using the handbrake (it's pretty darn easy to pull up and push down a lever, and it leaves your foot free for optimal throttle position). > > Okay, basic lesson on starting on a hill with a manual. > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > (it's pretty darn easy to pull up and push down a lever, and > it leaves your foot free for optimal throttle position). Its really just what you are comfortable with. Both work. Yes, in some vehicles it is rather awkward but you soon learn the trick. Harry K >> You're kidding, right? One of the first things any manual tranny >> driver -should- learn is how to hold a car steady on an incline using >> JUST the clutch and accelerator. > > Sure. But you're not meant to do that for minutes one end. The clutch > will start burning. You aren't holding the the car with the clutch the whole time the light is red. Just for the seconds that it takes to transition from stoped to moving. Seconds at most. <SNIP> > You are *NOT* meant to hold a car with the clutch on a hill > indefinitely ! You'll trash the clutch. It's also plain clumsy. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Graham Yes, it does result in unnecessary wear on the clutch. That's why you should be in neutral with your foot off the clutch. Our argument seems be over whether to use the parking brake or the service brake. The last two manual transmission cars I owned had Left Foot Parking brakes with a hand release. Not really easy for use at a stop light. One of my old cars, I think it was an 80 Citation, had the brake release near the hood release. I realise that this may be a difference between the US and UK. My point is that the "parking brake" should only be used for holding the vehicle when parked. It can get even crazier with some of the buses I drive. They have wheel chair lifts and are equiped with an "ADA Interlock". Which means that you cannot shift (automatic) into drive unless you have released the parking brake.They also go into "charge protect" mode when the parking brake is applied and it is in park. This reves the engine to keep up with the electrical draw (from the wheel chair lift). Doug > >> You're kidding, right? One of the first things any manual tranny > >> driver -should- learn is how to hold a car steady on an incline using [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > is red. Just for the seconds that it takes to transition from stoped to > moving. Seconds at most. Actually this is exactly the point I've been trying to make to someone who apparently refused to accept that what you ( and I ) say is the accepted norm. > <SNIP> > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Yes, it does result in unnecessary wear on the clutch. That's why you > should be in neutral with your foot off the clutch. Agreed. > Our argument seems be > over whether to use the parking brake or the service brake. The last two > manual transmission cars I owned had Left Foot Parking brakes with a hand > release. Not really easy for use at a stop light. Ahhh - that's a bit odd. I'm not even sure you could sell a car over here with that fitment. > One of my old cars, I > think it was an 80 Citation, had the brake release near the hood release. > I realise that this may be a difference between the US and UK. My point > is that the "parking brake" should only be used for holding the vehicle > when parked. Seems clear that the European 'handbrake' is designed to be used more intensively. It also sounds much nicer to use than any of those oddities you've menntioned. Graham > You're kidding, right? One of the first things any manual tranny > driver -should- learn is how to hold a car steady on an incline using JUST > the clutch and accelerator. What are you? A clutch manufacturer's rep? A clutch installer? Or just a retard? It's gotta be one of the three, 'cause holding a car steady on an incline by balancing the clutch against the accelerator is an excellent way of roasting the clutch and doing variably tremendous amounts of collateral thermal damage to such components as the flywheel, clutch release bearing, clutch hydraulics if applicable, etc. > Now there are a lot of incompetent manual tranny drivers who can NOT hold a > car steady on a hill using just the clutch and accelerator pedal. ...not as many as there are masterful manual-trans drivers who *could*, but know not to. >> You're kidding, right? One of the first things any manual tranny >> driver -should- learn is how to hold a car steady on an incline using [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > ...not as many as there are masterful manual-trans drivers who *could*, > but know not to. YO!!! As I wrote elsewhere, I know not to do it, myself. But there is a huge difference between not doing it and not BEING ABLE to do it. If you can't do it, you shouldn't be driving. IMHO That doesn't mean I think it's a good idea, just something that all drivers SHOULD be able to do. -Dave > >> Now there are a lot of incompetent manual tranny drivers who can NOT > >> hold a car steady on a hill using just the clutch and accelerator > >> pedal. > > > > ...not as many as there are masterful manual-trans drivers who > > *could*, but know not to. > YO!!! As I wrote elsewhere, I know not to do it, myself. But there is a > huge difference between not doing it and not BEING ABLE to do it. If you > can't do it, you shouldn't be driving. IMHO That doesn't mean I think it's > a good idea, just something that all drivers SHOULD be able to do. ...because...? but know not to. > > YO!!! As I wrote elsewhere, I know not to do it, myself. But there is a > > huge difference between not doing it and not BEING ABLE to do it. If you > > can't do it, you shouldn't be driving. IMHO That doesn't mean I think it's > > a good idea, just something that all drivers SHOULD be able to do. > > ...because...? because it's as essential to driving as steering and braking. (duh) -Dave > > > YO!!! As I wrote elsewhere, I know not to do it, myself. But there is > > > huge difference between not doing it and not BEING ABLE to do it. If > > > can't do it, you shouldn't be driving. IMHO That doesn't mean I think > > > a good idea, just something that all drivers SHOULD be able to do. > > ...because...? > because it's as essential to driving as steering and braking. (duh) Ah. So, let's recap your position: It's essential to know how to do something that you mustn't ever do, because it's essential. I count at least three logical fallacies, and possibly more. > Ah. So, let's recap your position: It's essential to know how to do > something that you mustn't ever do, because it's essential. > > I count at least three logical fallacies, and possibly more. OK, you are stopped at a stop light facing uphill on a steep hill. Someone parks right on your a.s, of course. You don't know how to properly use the clutch and accelerator, because you "mustn't" ever use them. What to do next? -Dave > > Ah. So, let's recap your position: It's essential to know how to do > > something that you mustn't ever do, because it's essential. > > I count at least three logical fallacies, and possibly more. > OK, you are stopped at a stop light facing uphill on a steep hill. Someone > parks right on your a.s, of course. You don't know how to properly use the > clutch and accelerator, because you "mustn't" ever use them. What to do > next? Well, gee, what I do next is keep my foot on the brake (or, if I'm in the UK, apply the handbrake) until the light turns green, at which point I drive off. Nice try, but you specifically started this subtopic of *HOLDING* the car on a grade using only the clutch and accelerator, and now you're going to have to see it through. > Well, gee, what I do next is keep my foot on the brake (or, if I'm in the > UK, apply the handbrake) until the light turns green, at which point I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > on a grade using only the clutch and accelerator, and now you're going to > have to see it through. How are you going to do that, lacking the proper skills to use the clutch and accelerator pedal effectively? You gotta learn to walk first, ya now. -Dave > > Well, gee, what I do next is keep my foot on the brake (or, if I'm in > > the UK, apply the handbrake) until the light turns green, at which [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > car on a grade using only the clutch and accelerator, and now you're > > going to have to see it through. > How are you going to do that, lacking the proper skills to use the clutch > and accelerator pedal effectively? Again, nice try, very slick, but you're shifting the topic. You did NOT posit that it's necessary to have the proper skills to "use the clutch and accelerator pedal effectively". You posited that "One of the first things any manual tranny driver -should- learn is how to hold a car steady on an incline using JUST the clutch and accelerator." It was then pointed out to you that holding a car steady on an incline using the clutch and accelerator is very poor practice, which you acknowledged. That being the case, your shift of the argument from "All drivers should know how to hold a car steady on an incline using just the clutch and accelerator" to "All drivers should know how to use the clutch and accelerator effectively" is disingenuous. Care to try again? Or shall we just send a runner down to the hardware store for some paint remover so you can get out of that corner? > > How are you going to do that, lacking the proper skills to use the clutch > > and accelerator pedal effectively? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > any manual tranny driver -should- learn is how to hold a car steady on an > incline using JUST the clutch and accelerator." YES, and if you can't do that, then you don't know how to use the clutch and accelerator properly. Any driver knows that, So I'm shocked that anyone would argue the point. -Dave > > Again, nice try, very slick, but you're shifting the topic. You did > > NOT posit that it's necessary to have the proper skills to "use the > > clutch and accelerator pedal effectively". You posited that "One of > > the first things any manual tranny driver -should- learn is how to > > hold a car steady on an incline using JUST the clutch and > > accelerator." > YES, and if you can't do that, then you don't know how to use the clutch > and accelerator properly. Since holding the car steady on an incline using just the clutch and accelerator is uniformly acknowledged as poor practice, knowing how to do so is, *prima facie*, not part of knowing how to use the clutch and accelerator properly. > I'm shocked that anyone would argue the point. There's a surprise... > > > Well, gee, what I do next is keep my foot on the brake (or, if I'm in > > > the UK, apply the handbrake) until the light turns green, at which [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Care to try again? Or shall we just send a runner down to the hardware > store for some paint remover so you can get out of that corner? Spot on and nicely put ! ;-) Graham > > Ah. So, let's recap your position: It's essential to know how to do > > something that you mustn't ever do, because it's essential. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > clutch and accelerator, because you "mustn't" ever use them. What to do > next? -Dave What *is* your problem 'Dave' ? Simple, you inch the car a bit more up the hill. Incidentally a good example of why it's inadvisable to pull up too close to the vehicle in front. Graham >If you know of a way of holding the car braked on a hill whilst using the accelerator >and clutch that doesn't involve 3 feet please let me know ! Release the clutch to the friction point while applying gas with the heel of your foot and holding the brake with the ball of your foot (or vice-versa). SignatureThere's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can result in a fully-depreciated one. > >If you know of a way of holding the car braked on a hill whilst using the accelerator > >and clutch that doesn't involve 3 feet please let me know ! > > Release the clutch to the friction point while applying gas with the > heel of your foot and holding the brake with the ball of your foot (or > vice-versa). Sounds horribly dangerous. One slip and you're in the back of the car in front. Graham >> >If you know of a way of holding the car braked on a hill whilst using the accelerator >> >and clutch that doesn't involve 3 feet please let me know ! [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Sounds horribly dangerous. One slip and you're in the back of the car in front. If you slip, the car stalls, most likely. Horribly dangerous? Maybe, if you're an actuary. SignatureThere's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can result in a fully-depreciated one. >> Uhm, the middle pedal is the brake pedal. It doesn't stop working on inclined >> surfaces... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >If you know of a way of holding the car braked on a hill whilst using the accelerator >and clutch that doesn't involve 3 feet please let me know ! Surely you must have heard of "heel and toe". Read about it in Pat Moss's (Stirling's daughter) book "The Art and Technique of Driving" (1965) a long time before I ever drove. It was one of the first "tricks" I learnt. >Any intelligent person sets the handbrake on a hill after coming to a halt. Thereafter >you don't need to use the brake pedal. Yes. Might as well use it if it is there ......... SignatureSurendar Jeyadev jeyadev1@wrc.xerox.com The 1 in the email address is fake > >> Uhm, the middle pedal is the brake pedal. It doesn't stop working on inclined > >> surfaces... [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > (Stirling's daughter) book "The Art and Technique of Driving" (1965) a long > time before I ever drove. It was one of the first "tricks" I learnt. I've heard of it but never used it. A rallying technique as much as anything IIRC. I can't imagine it being very practical for everyday road use in bsy ftraffic though. > >Any intelligent person sets the handbrake on a hill after coming to a halt. Thereafter > >you don't need to use the brake pedal. > > Yes. Might as well use it if it is there ......... Absolutely. If you fancy a real test of ability try driving a car with a non-functioning clutch ! It's do-able ( just ). Graham > > >> Uhm, the middle pedal is the brake pedal. It doesn't stop working on inclined > > >> surfaces... [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Graham Not "just". It only takes some practice of rev matching. The only real problem is getting the vehicle moving from a dead stop. Harry K >> If you fancy a real test of ability try driving a car with a >> non-functioning clutch ! It's do-able ( just ). [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Harry K Floating gears is the way truckers do it. After starting up, no more use for a clutch. Doug > > If you fancy a real test of ability try driving a car with a non-functioning clutch ! It's > > do-able ( just ). [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Harry K The only way I know is cranking in 1st gear ! Yeah, cringe, but it works. I once spent the best part of an afternoon driving like that until I found a shop that could fit a new cable that same day. Funny thing is - they were a Ford franchise but I had a GM car. Apparently they liked working on my car for a change ! They also charged less than the GM franchise wanted ! Graham > If you fancy a real test of ability try driving a car with a non-functioning clutch ! It's > do-able ( just ). I've had several cars that were very easy to shift without using the clutch ('78 Ford Fiesta, Mark III Sprite, Jensen-Healey, Audi Coupe). And one that was impossible for me to shift without the clutch (Plymouth Reliant). Guess which one I had to drive 130 miles without a functioning clutch? While attending a wedding in Petersburg Virginia, the clutch cable in my practically new Plymouth Reliant broke. I could easily crank the car off in first with the strater, but no amount of practice ever let me shift it into another gear once it was moving. Fortunately I was staying in a Motel that was almost directly on a long downhill ramp to I-85 South. When the time came to head home (on a Sunday), I moved the car to the top of the ramp in first, made sure it was warmed up, and cut it off. Then I placed the transmission in fourth gear and with a couple of freinds pushing (and laughing) I cranked the starter with the car pointed downhill. The car fired up and I chugged down the ramp gaining speed. I easily merged with traffic. I managed to drive around 125 miles without needing to stop. On the outskirts of Raleigh I came to light that had just turned yellow. The car in front of me decided he needed to stop. I passed him on the shoulder and got through the intersection. About 1 mile from my goal (the Plymouth dealer), I got caught at an intersection where I had to stop and I killed the engine. I placed the car in second gear and cranked it off to make the final mile. The car had a damn good starter. Too bad the rest was crap (but nice driving crap). In the 11 months that I owned the car I think I visted the dealer 12 times. They had a great shop. They fixed everything right the first time and I never had the same thing break twice. But I got tired of having new things break every month. Too bad, it was a comfortable and fuel efficient car. Ed >If you fancy a real test of ability try driving a car with a non-functioning clutch ! It's >do-able ( just ). I started on Jeep with synchromesh. Never, ever, got it into reverse! Fortunately, I moved on to cars in a few weeks. SignatureSurendar Jeyadev jeyadev1@wrc.xerox.com The 1 in the email address is fake > >If you fancy a real test of ability try driving a car with a non-functioning clutch ! It's > >do-able ( just ). > > I started on Jeep with synchromesh. Never, ever, got it into reverse! > Fortunately, I moved on to cars in a few weeks. In a vehicle with a balky reverse - let the car come to a full stop in a forward gear (clutch disengaged) before putting it into neutral. This will stop all the gears/shafts inside the tranny. If you can't get it into reverse then, let the clutch slip ever so slightly to move the input shaft around a little, as soon as the gears line up it will drop right in. This method has never failed me even with the balkiest of transmissions. Now what is difficult is shifting an old column-shift three speed into second when the linkage is all worn and sloppy (I can tell you a trick to make that easy too, if anyone cares <G>) nate > > <snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Graham If you own a Studebaker or Subaru there's no problem :) (owners of either should know what I'm talking about) nate > If you own a Studebaker or Subaru there's no problem :) (owners of > either should know what I'm talking about) ...or an old Mopar with one of these installed: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4562853613 > > > <snip> > > > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > nate Jeez, I had forgotten about those. Harry K > If you own a Studebaker or Subaru there's no problem :) (owners of > either should know what I'm talking about) > > nate I've got a Legacy and an Outback. Unfortunately they are both automatics so my wife can drive them. I did test drive a WRX manual, that was a lot of fun. I loved the hill holder clutch. Doug |
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