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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / July 2005Objects hanging from rear view mirror may be legaler than they appear
Many police in Massachusetts consider any object hanging from a rear view mirror to be an excuse to stop a car. The state Appeals Court overruled that policy this week, finding that the state law does not unconditionally prohibit hanging objects. The judges wrote: "Indeed, we take judicial notice of the fact that objects such as air fresheners, graduation tassels, and religious medals commonly are hung from the rearview mirrors of motor vehicles driven in the Commonwealth. We doubt that the Legislature intended this ordinary practice to be grounds, without more, for issuing a citation or for justifying a stop by police." Based on this decision, there must be reason to believe that there is a real effect on safe operation, such as the hanging objects obstructing the driver's view of the road or actually distracting the driver. <http://www.socialaw.com/slip.htm?cid=15365&sid=119> The court noted that Minnesota and South Dakota have laws explicitly prohibiting hanging objects from the rear view mirror.  SignatureJohn Carr (jfc@mit.edu) > Many police in Massachusetts consider any object hanging from a rear > view mirror to be an excuse to stop a car. Some property management companies issue parking placards designed to be hung from the rear view mirror, as does the Registry itself for handicapped parking placards. Signature- David Chesler <chesler@post.harvard.edu> Iacta alea est > Some property management companies issue parking placards designed to > be hung from the rear view mirror, as does the Registry itself for > handicapped parking placards. The HP placard is only meant to be hung when you take a parking space. I had one for a number of years. > > Many police in Massachusetts consider any object hanging from a rear > > view mirror to be an excuse to stop a car. > > Some property management companies issue parking placards designed to > be hung from the rear view mirror, as does the Registry itself for > handicapped parking placards. Right, but I assume it is only a problem when the car is being driven. I can't think of a reason to hang a parking pass or a handicapped parking permit when driving. I do see a lot of people driving around with their handicapped placards dangling from their mirrors though. Sometimes I almost feel that I am the only one without one. It is probably a good idea to remove obstructions from your line of vision. >> Some property management companies issue parking placards designed to >> be hung from the rear view mirror, as does the Registry itself for >> handicapped parking placards. > Right, but I assume it is only a problem when the car is being driven. I > can't think of a reason to hang a parking pass or a handicapped parking > permit when driving. I do see a lot of people driving around with their > handicapped placards dangling from their mirrors though. Sometimes I > almost feel that I am the only one without one. Around here (northern California) the best way to predict that a driver will be a needless slowpoke is the handicap plates. There must be a policy of issuing them to mentally handicapped geezers. How about just red-tagging the dummies instead? > Right, but I assume it is only a problem when the car is being driven. I > can't think of a reason to hang a parking pass or a handicapped parking > permit when driving. The placard has a 7-year or so expiration. After 2 years of flipping it on and off the mirror it's already getting worn out. Putting it on and off is just one more pain-in-the-a.s thing to worry about -- sometimes leaving it up is not worth the extra visibility. Since I'm able-bodied, I don't want to appear that I took the spot when I wasn't entitled, so I want to leave it up the entire time I'm in the spot, which includes some time that I'm driving. (The placard is issued to my wife, who has radiation-therapy-induced pneumonitis [She can still use her right ankle quite well, when she's driving.] If we parked in an HP spot but she's not in the car, it usually means she didn't feel she could walk all the way back to the car, and I've gone round to get the car and pick her up.) > I do see a lot of people driving around with their > handicapped placards dangling from their mirrors though. Sometimes I > almost feel that I am the only one without one. Almost anybody aged or infirm can probably get the requisite doctor's note. > It is probably a good idea to remove obstructions from your line of > vision. Is that why you've taken a Dremel to the day/night paddle on the bottom of your mirror? Signature- David Chesler <chesler@post.harvard.edu> Iacta alea est >> Right, but I assume it is only a problem when the car is being driven. I >> can't think of a reason to hang a parking pass or a handicapped parking [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Is that why you've taken a Dremel to the day/night paddle on the > bottom of your mirror? day/night paddle, what's that? :) My car's mirror dims automagically, and even before that wonderful invention came along I can't recall my vision being obstructed by anything. I have had a (not handicapped) parking pass hanging off the mirror and if I forget to remove it before starting the engine, I've ripped it off by the time I've exited the parking garage because I don't feel comfortable with a piece of plastic obstructing my view while I'm driving. I've never found it to be a pain in the a.s to do, and I've never put any wear/tear on it either. I just store it in a handy place in my car while not in use. >> Is that why you've taken a Dremel to the day/night paddle on the >> bottom of your mirror? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > in the a.s to do, and I've never put any wear/tear on it either. I just > store it in a handy place in my car while not in use. I found the handiest place to be on the mirror :-) All cars have blind spots. (Even convertibles have A pillars, not to mention the spot behind the rear view mirror itself. Even snub-nose buses have a blind spot directly in front of the vehicle.) You've got to know where the blind spots are, and compensate. As long as they're reasonable, it's easy enough to compensate. As for pickup trucks (with dogs, caps, etc. blocking the inboard mirror) as long as you've got mirrors on both sides of the vehicle, you're in pretty good shape and probably legal. (You never know, the code could well be written that any mirror must be unobstructed, so you'd better remove the inboard mirror, or if that's illegal too, order one from the factory without that mirror in the first place.) Signature- David Chesler <chesler@post.harvard.edu> Iacta alea est > > > Many police in Massachusetts consider any object hanging from a rear > > > view mirror to be an excuse to stop a car. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > handicapped placards dangling from their mirrors though. Sometimes I > almost feel that I am the only one without one. Worst things -- beautiful prismatic crystals which can momentarily blind people in other cars. > It is probably a good idea to remove obstructions from your line of > vision. It's illegal here to put anything on your rear window except in the bottom farthest-from-driver corner. I also use the spot on my pickup rear window directly behind my head -- if anybody thinks I can see out that spot they've watched The Exorcist way too many times. SignatureCheers, Bev =============================================== Last night I played a blank tape at full blast. The mime next door went nuts! [snip] > It's illegal here to put anything on your rear window except in the bottom > farthest-from-driver corner. Even a center-mounted brake light? What about those people with the menagerie of stuffed animals sitting on their rear-window shelf? > I also use the spot on my pickup rear window > directly behind my head -- if anybody thinks I can see out that spot they've > watched The Exorcist way too many times. Thin about a canopy or the typical pile of toolboxes and other gear found in many pickups. A lousy sticker in the window is going to be worse? A friend has a pickup truck, and when he looks back, all he sees is a big, ugly dog staring back at him. ;-) SignaturePaul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't hate yourself in the morning -- sleep till noon. > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Even a center-mounted brake light? What about those people with the > menagerie of stuffed animals sitting on their rear-window shelf? That's not actually ON the window. There's probably a difference. Some people have hand-crocheted antimacassars on their seat-backs, which I think is sweet. I've had a small stuffed bear sitting over in the corner of my dashboard for at least 5 years. I'm amazed that it hasn't rotted away from being exposed to the sun all day. The Barbie head on my antenna is something else, though. I've had her up there for at least 10 years and her face is covered with black spots sort of like the burned parts of a toasted marshmallow. > > I also use the spot on my pickup rear window > > directly behind my head -- if anybody thinks I can see out that spot they've [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > found in many pickups. A lousy sticker in the window is going to be > worse? Don't complain to me, I didn't write that particular form of wallet-rape. > A friend has a pickup truck, and when he looks back, all he sees is a > big, ugly dog staring back at him. Hope he's tied down or Officer Friendly may be chatting with him soon. SignatureCheers, Bev ================================================================ I didn't break it! It was doing that before I broke it... er... > Right, but I assume it is only a problem when the car is being driven. I > can't think of a reason to hang a parking pass or a handicapped parking > permit when driving. I do see a lot of people driving around with their > handicapped placards dangling from their mirrors though. Sometimes I > almost feel that I am the only one without one. I attend basketball games at a local arena. To get into the parking lot you have to have your parking pass hanging from the mirror so that the various lot attendants can see it and direct you to the proper lot. On my Vue, the pass obstructs very little. On my Thunderbird it blanks out 1/3 of the windshield. In either case I don't put the pass on until I am in the traffic line for the arena and I remove it as soon as I am on the way out. However, at least if I drive the Thunderbird, the pass is a pain. As far as I can determine, there is no North Carolina law that specifically prohibits hanging objects from the rear view mirror (or in the back glass for that matter). I can't see how they can make rules about rear window obstructions and then allow vans with no rear windows, dump trucks, semi's, limousines, etc. Ed Ed >> Many police in Massachusetts consider any object hanging from a rear >> view mirror to be an excuse to stop a car. > > Some property management companies issue parking placards designed to >be hung from the rear view mirror, as does the Registry itself for >handicapped parking placards. The University of Maryland was infamous for issuing tickets if you drove on campus with their parking pass on your mirror. And, of course, they'd ticket you if you were parked without it on your mirror. (alternate locations not permitted except by prior arrangeemnt in certain cases, including convertibles and motorcycles). Just a money-collection scam, that's all. >> Many police in Massachusetts consider any object hanging from a rear >> view mirror to be an excuse to stop a car. > > Some property management companies issue parking placards designed to >be hung from the rear view mirror, as does the Registry itself for >handicapped parking placards. Hang it up when you park. Take it down when you are moving. Pretty simple to understand, one would hope. -------------- Alex >>>Many police in Massachusetts consider any object hanging from a rear >>>view mirror to be an excuse to stop a car. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Hang it up when you park. Take it down when you are moving. Pretty simple > to understand, one would hope. If I leave it up, it's always there, it doesn't fall under the seat, it doesn't get crumpled when somebody sits on it, it doesn't wear out as I hook it over the mirror and unhook it, I don't forget to put it up when I get to work, and I have a non-distracting blind spot about as big as the rearview mirror, covering a portion of my 2 o'clock high from which I suppose a bird might be coming out of the sky and towards my car. Equally simple to understand. If you pretend not to understand why someone _would_ do something, and merely respond with why you do do the opposite, it makes it that much harder to have constructive conversations. Signature- David Chesler <chesler@post.harvard.edu> Iacta alea est > If I leave it up, it's always there, it doesn't fall under the seat, > it doesn't get crumpled when somebody sits on it, it doesn't wear [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > my 2 o'clock high from which I suppose a bird might be coming > out of the sky and towards my car. Equally simple to understand. Most hang tags don't block much that needs to be seen while driving, but handicapped parking permits are very long, and they look like they could easily obstruct the view of stuff at road level. (Do they have to be so long? What's behind the white sticker?) My high school's parking lot required a very small hang tag. I decided I'd obey the theoretical nothing-hanging-from-mirror law by taping it sideways to the back of the mirror. -Apr In reference to HP tags... > What's behind the white sticker? It covers a picture ID. It protects privacy, while enabling an authority to check to see if the actually user is using it. At least in theory. -Me (who else?) > What's behind the white sticker?) As Matthew said, it's the issue-ee's DL photo. And since our white sleeve got lost, I'm looking at my wife's scowling RMV mug when I drive -- that probably results in a net safety increase. It's just not that big a space either way, compared to all the other things, like the inspection sticker, the pop-up headlights, etc. As long as you know it's there, and don't, if you need that sector, assume that if you can't see anything, there is nothing there. What I find much more of a block is when certain disabled passengers lean forward and start moving around and blocking my vision with their arms and upper body while they affix or remove placards from my mirror -- which is another reason I prefer to just leave the damned thing in place and not mess with it. Signature- David Chesler <chesler@post.harvard.edu> Iacta alea est > Many police in Massachusetts consider any object hanging from a rear > view mirror to be an excuse to stop a car. The state Appeals Court [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > <http://www.socialaw.com/slip.htm?cid=15365&sid=119> In New York obstructed vision is a roadside plea bargain offense. A friend of mine got stopped for speeding but the trooper did him a favor and wrote him for obstructed vision (he had a parking lot hang tag on his mirror). Obstructed vision carries a fine but no points in NY. Not wearing a seatbelt is also popular for roadside plea bargains in NY because it carries a fine but no points. John Mara > In New York obstructed vision is a roadside plea bargain offense. A friend > of mine got stopped for speeding but the trooper did him a favor and wrote [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > John Mara So in other words, it's safer to NOT wear a seatbelt in NY. After all, when you are stopped for speeding, you will have nothing to plead to, if you are buckled in. -Dave > So in other words, it's safer to NOT wear a seatbelt in NY. After all, when > you are stopped for speeding, you will have nothing to plead to, if you are > buckled in. Not really, since the police in NYS often pull people over just for having an unbuckled seatbelt. And I'm sure if you were pulled over for speeding and the cop decided to give you a lesser ticket instead, there would always be some no-points charge he could come up with. For an inside look at how NYC police operate, google "ny.pd ra.nt" (without the dots) and look at the web-based discussion board that comes up first. Lots of discussions about the "professional courtesy" cops extend to other cops' family members when they get pulled over. There are a *lot* of cops in the NYC area, and therefore there are whole communities where almost everyone is related to one and has a union card which gets them out of tickets. -Apr >>So in other words, it's safer to NOT wear a seatbelt in NY. After all, when >>you are stopped for speeding, you will have nothing to plead to, if you are [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > -Apr That's pretty standard anywhere, cops don't give tickets to cops and cops' families--unless it's a pretty bad situation. Sometimes this even extends to military police and police from out-of-area. > That's pretty standard anywhere, cops don't give tickets to cops and > cops' families--unless it's a pretty bad situation. Sometimes this > even extends to military police and police from out-of-area. Not true around here. Cops don't cut foreign cops a break. > > That's pretty standard anywhere, cops don't give tickets to cops and > > cops' families--unless it's a pretty bad situation. Sometimes this > > even extends to military police and police from out-of-area. > > Not true around here. Cops don't cut foreign cops a break. It does depend on where "around here" is. I'm all for ticketing people who hang those felt dice from their mirrors. "Legaler" is a word? >I'm all for ticketing people who hang those felt dice >from their mirrors. There was a coalition formed to have them exempt, but no dice. Signature-john wide-open at throttle dot info > >I'm all for ticketing people who hang those felt dice > >from their mirrors. > > There was a coalition formed to have them exempt, but no dice. :-) Felt? Not felt, angora. I thought everybody knew that. SignatureCheers, Bev ================================================================ I didn't break it! It was doing that before I broke it... er... I think I'm going to replace the station wagon with a mini-van, and join the 1990s. It will be well-used, but I can ask the dealer for particular features to try for. I'm thinking that a center aisle is preferable to a bench for the second-row seats. Is there something in favor of a right-side aisle I'm not considering? Any reason not to have captain's (swivel) front seats? Any reason not to have a left-side back door? Do any models have opening windows for the second row? How often are swing-out doors available, and do they offer advantages? (There was a tragic accident where a kid was killed by a sliding door around here a few years ago.) I suppose sliding doors open more and take less room; are they harder to close well? What are the best options for carrying bicycles (1 adult and 3 kid-sized) with a mini-van? Signature- David Chesler <chesler@post.harvard.edu> Iacta alea est > How often are swing-out doors available, and do they offer >advantages? (There was a tragic accident where a kid was killed >by a sliding door around here a few years ago.) They offer DISadvantages, especially if you transport kids around. Little kids do things like smack their doors into the car parked next to you when they get out. Sliding doors avoid that little problem. > > How often are swing-out doors available, and do they offer > >advantages? (There was a tragic accident where a kid was killed [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Little kids do things like smack their doors into the car parked next > to you when they get out. Sliding doors avoid that little problem. Wouldn't it be better to just beat the children? A friend's Astrovan has a sliding door. Over the years it's gotten harder and harder to open and close, and now it actually hurts my arm to do it. So much for the tender ministrations of Jiffy Lube. SignatureCheers, Bev =============================================== Last night I played a blank tape at full blast. The mime next door went nuts! >Wouldn't it be better to just beat the children? It would, but few parents today are capable of doing it. At the train station the other day, there was a woman with two young (roughly 7 - 8 year old) children who sat on the bench next to me. What followed was a constant stream of "Stop it, Nathan..." "Stop it, Jessica..." "Keep your hands to yourself, Nathan..." "Jessica, please be quiet..." "Shhhhh!!!!!!!" "Nathan, stop it, I mean it..." This literally went on for 20 minutes until my train came. The kids basically ignored the mother's pleas, having learned long ago that she was completely impotent WRT controlling them. I'm damn glad I was taking Metrolink and this brood was riding Amtrak... >A friend's Astrovan has a sliding door. Over the years it's gotten harder and >harder to open and close, and now it actually hurts my arm to do it. So much >for the tender ministrations of Jiffy Lube. Jiffy Screw doesn't lube doors. >>Wouldn't it be better to just beat the children? > > It would, but few parents today are capable of doing it. Many of us are willing and able, but would rather put up with some misbehavior from the kids than get involved with DYS. (We're also looking for vehicles with three benches and space between the seats in the middle row, because that's easier than turning around while driving, and swivel seats for the front passenger for when the separation isn't sufficient.) Signature- David Chesler <chesler@post.harvard.edu> Who doesn't believe in using time-outs because they teach children that if somebody does something you don't like it's OK to send them to another room. ">>>Wouldn't it be better to just beat the children? >> It would, but few parents today are capable of doing it. > > Many of us are willing and able, but would rather put > up with some misbehavior from the kids than get involved > with DYS. And so we all (as a society) suffer needlessly. If kids aren't disciplined (and parents aren't allowed to discipline them anymore), they grow up to be lifetime felons. In jail they aren't allowed to be disciplined, either. So they get out early on parole and reproduce, having lots of baby felons that they aren't allowed to discipline. -Dave > And so we all (as a society) suffer needlessly. If kids aren't disciplined > (and parents aren't allowed to discipline them anymore), they grow up to be > lifetime felons. In jail they aren't allowed to be disciplined, either. So > they get out early on parole and reproduce, having lots of baby felons that > they aren't allowed to discipline. -Dave Exactly! And that's why all 18-25 year olds today are felons; that's why the teen drug abuse rate is down, that's why gang violence is down, and that's why crime rates are down. What we really need is more death penalties and more beatings. How about the death penalty for robbery? Hell yeah! Why not just allow parents to beat kids with canes in public? That would surely stop the steady stream of felons that comes from all families who don't beat their kids. And what's up with not allowing torture in prisons? What we really need to do is bring the Abu Ghraib prison guards here to America. That way, after prisoners have their Bibles pissed on and are sodomized by guards, they will certainly not want to ever commit a crime again. Finally, someone with a real solution to this country's problems. "David Chesler" <chesler@post.harvard.edu> wrote > I'm thinking that a center aisle is preferable to a bench for > the second-row seats. Is there something in favor of a right-side > aisle I'm not considering? You seem to be confusing 2nd and 3rd. 2nd row seat options are individual chairs, or a bench (usually with r-hand access to the 3rd row.) > Any reason not to have captain's (swivel) front seats? AFAIK, no minivan offers swivel seats. They are forward- facing only. > Any reason not to have a left-side back door? Cost, model year. > Do any models have opening windows for the second row? Very few middle (2nd row) windows open. Almost always the rear 3rd-row windows open in a vent manner. None have roll-downs in either 2nd or 3rd row. > How often are swing-out doors available, and do they offer > advantages? (There was a tragic accident where a kid was killed > by a sliding door around here a few years ago.) I suppose sliding > doors open more and take less room; are they harder to close well? Sliding is the only way to go. IIRC, only Mazda had/has swingers. > What are the best options for carrying bicycles (1 adult and 3 > kid-sized) with a mini-van? Trailer hitch mounted rack. Floyd >> Do any models have opening windows for the second row? > > Very few middle (2nd row) windows open. Almost always the > rear 3rd-row windows open in a vent manner. None have > roll-downs in either 2nd or 3rd row. I saw one just the other day that had roll-down second-row windows, but I didn't notice what make it was. Signature~/Garth |"I believe that it is better to tell the truth than a lie. Almgren | I believe it is better to be free than to be a slave. ******* | And I believe it is better to know than to be ignorant." (pgp@v6stang.com for secure mail info) --H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:25:30 -0400, David Chesler , said the following in rec.autos.driving... > I think I'm going to replace the station wagon with a mini-van, > and join the 1990s. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the second-row seats. Is there something in favor of a right-side > aisle I'm not considering? The passengers heading for the back row not having to climb over the seat to get to the aisle. > Any reason not to have captain's (swivel) front seats? You'd want a fullsized conversion van for captians chairs. I doubt most minivans would have room for them, but I could be wrong. > Any reason not to have a left-side back door? None that I know of if it is an option for the vehicle. > Do any models have opening windows for the second row? If this is important, you might want to consider joining the 2000's and getting a SUV. ;-) Seriously, I've never seen a minivan with roll down rear windows (just the driver and front passenger's windows), but most SUV's do have rolldown windows for the second row if they are 4-door SUV's. First, you might want to evaluate what you need the vehicle for. The station wagon (if you can find one these days) or one of the new "crossover," vehicles that are comming out would probablly be able to do what you need, including hauling the bicycles (with proper equipment, ofcourse). SignaturePaul Self-appointed unofficial overseer of kooks and trolls in rec.autos.driving. > I think I'm going to replace the station wagon with a mini-van, >and join the 1990s. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > How often are swing-out doors available, The first generation Honda Odyssey and Isuzu Oasis were sort of in between a station wagon and a minivan, with proportions like a small minivan, but with swingout instead of sliding doors. Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------ Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is provided with this message. > Any reason not to have captain's (swivel) front seats? I'd say they're mandatory. Be sure to have someone paint a mural of Thor riding a winged unicorn on the side. And don't forget the "Cash, Grass or a.s: Nobody Rides For Free" bumper sticker. >> Any reason not to have captain's (swivel) front seats? > > I'd say they're mandatory. Be sure to have someone paint a mural of > Thor riding a winged unicorn on the side. And don't forget the "Cash, > Grass or a.s: Nobody Rides For Free" bumper sticker. I was thinking more of gluing shag carpet to the walls, and "If you see this van rockin', don't come a-knockin'" Signature- David Chesler <chesler@post.harvard.edu> Iacta alea est |
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