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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / July 2005

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More good news about biofuel

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Pooh Bear - 26 Jul 2005 00:05 GMT
Popular Science
July 2005

Liquor Does It Quicker; Saab's BioPower engine gives ethanol a kick in
the pants

By: Matthew Phenix

With all the buzz about hybrids, it’s easy to ignore our homegrown
alternative fuel: ethanol. Clean-burning and infinitely renewable-we’re
talking grain alcohol-ethanol is dear to environmentalists and
economists alike. The standard 85/15-percent ethanol/gasoline blend
(E85) is widely used in Sweden, but there are only 313 E85 fueling
stations in the U.S. And motorheads aren’t clamoring for more, because
E85 typically delivers inferior fuel economy; it has about 75 percent of
the potential energy of gasoline, so it takes up to 20 percent more
hooch to keep horsepower on par. But E85 also has a high octane rating
(around 110), and Saab realized that a turbocharger could harness it.
Turbos push extra air into the cylinder, and higher octane allows a fuel
to better endure the increased pressure. So Saab cranked up its fans and
created the BioPower engine, the first commercially available ethanol
turbo. A computer samples the fuel mixture and adjusts boost
pressure-from 5.8 psi for pure gasoline to 13.8 psi for E85. Running
straight gasoline, the engine produces 148 horsepower, but E85 jacks it
up to 184, with no penalty in fuel economy.

SAAB 9-5 2.OT Biopower Sedan
SPECS GASOLINE E85
POWER 148 hp 184 hp
TORQUE 177 lb.-ft 207 lb.-ft
MAX. BOOST 5.8 psi 13.8 psi
0-62 MPH 9.8 sec 8.5 sec
TOP SPEED 134 mph 140 mph
PRICE $35,000 $35,000
*based on exchange rates at press time

www.illinibioenergy.com/documents/ june_05/27/SAAB%20Engine.doc

So it's possible to be green and have a hot car too.

Graham
Ashton Crusher - 26 Jul 2005 06:37 GMT
Recent gvt study showed it took more energy to produce the ethanol
then you got out of it.  It's a loser for everyone but the farmers and
companies getting gvt subsidies for it.  It's a typical stupid feel
good gvt initiative that's worthless or worse then worthless.

>Popular Science
>July 2005
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
>Graham
Pooh Bear - 26 Jul 2005 12:47 GMT
> Recent gvt study showed it took more energy to produce the ethanol
> then you got out of it.

Frankly that's rather difficuult to believe.

Also doesn't seem to stop it being used. If the energy to make it also comes
from bio sources it's largely academic anyway !

>  It's a loser for everyone but the farmers and
> companies getting gvt subsidies for it.  It's a typical stupid feel
> good gvt initiative that's worthless or worse then worthless.

Actually it's the future.

One day, oil will become very difficult to find. In the meantime it'll simply
continue to get more expensive. Simple law of supply and demand.

Time to look at alternatives.

I suspect *your* govt is loading the dice in favour of its oil company
buddies btw. That's entriely stupid and simply ignores the inevitable
reality.

Graham
Daniel J. Stern - 26 Jul 2005 16:43 GMT
> > Recent gvt study showed it took more energy to produce the ethanol
> > then you got out of it.

> Also doesn't seem to stop it being used.

Immense federal subsidies are given to the ethanol industry. No big
mystery there.
Pooh Bear - 27 Jul 2005 02:56 GMT
> > > Recent gvt study showed it took more energy to produce the ethanol
> > > then you got out of it.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Immense federal subsidies are given to the ethanol industry. No big
> mystery there.

In Europe the industry to make ethanol in sufficiently large quantities
for motor use is being kickstarted ( demand wise ) by lower taxation of
the pump price.

Graham
Daniel J. Stern - 27 Jul 2005 16:42 GMT
> > Immense federal subsidies are given to the ethanol industry. No big
> > mystery there.

> In Europe the industry to make ethanol in sufficiently large quantities
> for motor use is being kickstarted ( demand wise ) by lower taxation of
> the pump price.

Yes. This is known as a "subsidy".
Pooh Bear - 27 Jul 2005 22:00 GMT
> > > Immense federal subsidies are given to the ethanol industry. No big
> > > mystery there.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Yes. This is known as a "subsidy".

There's no actual subsidy. The product is simply taxed less than petroleum
fuels in order to promote its use ( and the purchase of the Flexible Fuel
Vehicles that use it ). I thought most Americans were in favour of lower
taxes !

Graham
John S. - 28 Jul 2005 03:00 GMT
There is no diference between sending the producer a check and reducing
his taxes...he ends up with more money in his pocket.
Pooh Bear - 28 Jul 2005 03:35 GMT
> There is no diference between sending the producer a check and reducing
> his taxes...he ends up with more money in his pocket.

Actually, you missed the point.

Reduced taxation at the pump simply benefits the *end consumer*. This is
intentional to ensure demand for the new fuel in order to indirectly cover
'infrastrucuture' costs in getting a reliable distribution method that
covers a whole country.

Without 'pump priming' so to speak, it would be too simple just to continue
with the 'old ways' and not bother stocking a new fuel that will initially
clearly have low demand ( due to low number of units that can use it )
until such time as the number of FFV vehicles alone makes the infrastrucure
worthwhile.

For comparison, it's taken decades to get LPG fuelling here in the UK on
even a remotely practical basis on account of the low demand. Preferential
taxation at the pump would have made a big difference.

In any event, the European Commision has decreed that alcohol based fuel
shall be preferentially taxed throughout the EU, so with luck, we'll have a
rapid adoption of this new cleaner more powerful fuel.

Graham
Daniel J. Stern - 28 Jul 2005 18:55 GMT
> Reduced taxation at the pump simply benefits the *end consumer*

...who is incentivised to buy the reduced-tax product, which directly
benefits the producer. It's a subsidy.
Pooh Bear - 28 Jul 2005 19:50 GMT
> > Reduced taxation at the pump simply benefits the *end consumer*
>
> ...who is incentivised to buy the reduced-tax product, which directly
> benefits the producer. It's a subsidy.

It's only a *subsidy* if you take the view that fuel taxation should be
uniform regardless of source. Various fuels ( and energy sources )  are
taxed differently without comment. Indeed aviation fuel for airliners is
entirely tax feee !

Do you consider aviation to be thus 'subsidised' ?

If certain fuels deserve preferential tax treatment then that is a
*political* decision.

Sometimes the politicians need to make such decisions in order to further
progress.

Graham
Daniel J. Stern - 28 Jul 2005 21:07 GMT
> > > Reduced taxation at the pump simply benefits the *end consumer*

> > ...who is incentivised to buy the reduced-tax product, which directly
> > benefits the producer. It's a subsidy.
>
> It's only a *subsidy* if you take the view that fuel taxation should be
> uniform regardless of source.

No matter how many times you try to shift the focus or recast the facts in
clever words, fuel ethanol is subsidised and does not pass cost-benefit
analyses without the subsidies.
Pooh Bear - 28 Jul 2005 23:15 GMT
> > > > Reduced taxation at the pump simply benefits the *end consumer*
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> clever words, fuel ethanol is subsidised and does not pass cost-benefit
> analyses without the subsidies.

It's probably not intended to do so ! It's a clear example of  'pum priming'.
There's nothing inherently wrong with that. Any 'new technology' needs a
helping hand to get establsihed.

You haven't, I note, addressed yourself to the issue of non-taxed aviation
fuel !

By your 'standards' that means that government is subsidising aviation. I'd
like to hear your comment.

Graham
Daniel J. Stern - 29 Jul 2005 00:04 GMT
5> Reduced taxation at the pump simply benefits the *end consumer*

4> ...who is incentivised to buy the reduced-tax product, which directly
4> benefits the producer. It's a subsidy.

3> It's only a *subsidy* if you take the view that fuel taxation should be
3> uniform regardless of source.

2> No matter how many times you try to shift the focus or recast the facts
2> in clever words, fuel ethanol is subsidised and does not pass
2> cost-benefit analyses without the subsidies.

> It's probably not intended to do so!

And yet, that is the effect.

> You haven't, I note, addressed yourself to the issue of non-taxed
> aviation fuel !

That's because this is rec.autos.driving, and we discuss driving-related
topics here. Aviation fuel's taxation status is irrelevant to the
discussion.

> By your 'standards' that means that government is subsidising aviation.
> I'd like to hear your comment.

"Red herring". There, now you've heard it.
Pooh Bear - 29 Jul 2005 00:18 GMT
< snip>

> > You haven't, I note, addressed yourself to the issue of non-taxed
> > aviation fuel !
>
> That's because this is rec.autos.driving, and we discuss driving-related
> topics here. Aviation fuel's taxation status is irrelevant to the
> discussion.

That seems to me like a nice cosy excuse for not discussing the issue.

So - it's ok for aviation fuel to *untaxed* but 'wrong' for 'green fuel' to be
taxed less than petroleum fuel ?

I'd like to see a genuinely argued case for that scenario !

Graham
Daniel J. Stern - 29 Jul 2005 00:59 GMT
> > > You haven't, I note, addressed yourself to the issue of non-taxed
> > > aviation fuel !

> > That's because this is rec.autos.driving, and we discuss
> > driving-related topics here. Aviation fuel's taxation status is
> > irrelevant to the discussion.

> That seems to me like a nice cosy excuse for not discussing the issue.

When the thread's crossposted to aviation newsgroups, or when aviation
fuel becomes legal to use in on-road vehicles, or when ethanol
begins being used in aviation fuels, then aviation fuel taxation
issues will become relevant to the discussion.

> So - it's ok for aviation fuel to *untaxed* but 'wrong' for 'green fuel'
> to be taxed less than petroleum fuel ?

I have no opinion on that matter. It's not what we're discussing here.
DYM - 28 Jul 2005 22:59 GMT
>> > Reduced taxation at the pump simply benefits the *end consumer*
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Graham

Not to mention those who buy it. I drive for non-profit company. We don't
get charges state sales tax on the fuel we purchase from the same pump as
everybody else.

Doug
Pooh Bear - 28 Jul 2005 23:42 GMT
< snip >

> I drive for non-profit company. We don't
> get charges state sales tax on the fuel we purchase from the same pump as
> everybody else.

In which case maybe an alternative scheme might apply - as and when such fuel
might become available to you.

I'm simply talking about the European case where a significant tax is levied
on the pump price.

Graham
Daniel J. Stern - 28 Jul 2005 18:56 GMT
> > > > Immense federal subsidies are given to the ethanol industry. No
> > > > big mystery there.

> > > In Europe the industry to make ethanol in sufficiently large
> > > quantities for motor use is being kickstarted ( demand wise ) by
> > > lower taxation of the pump price.

> > Yes. This is known as a "subsidy".

> There's no actual subsidy. The product is simply taxed less

"I didn't commit a crime. What I did was fail to comply with the law."

Yours is nothing but a semantic game of sophistry.
Pooh Bear - 28 Jul 2005 19:55 GMT
> > > > > Immense federal subsidies are given to the ethanol industry. No
> > > > > big mystery there.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Yours is nothing but a semantic game of sophistry.

Rubbish !

It's entirely legitimate for governments to promote certain industries by
preferential tax treatmemt at source or whatever. It is done regularly.

This is indeed one of the few ways that makes 'new technology' a practical
proposition. 'New technology' doesn't have the advantages of scale and
existing market influence to make it attractive. It's easily ignored
without 'incentives'.

That is indeed the responsible job of government to provide.

Graham
Daniel J. Stern - 28 Jul 2005 21:09 GMT
6> Immense federal subsidies are given to the ethanol industry. No big
6> mystery there.

5> In Europe the industry to make ethanol in sufficiently large quantities
5> for motor use is being kickstarted ( demand wise ) by lower taxation of
5> the pump price.

4> Yes. This is known as a "subsidy".

3> There's no actual subsidy. The product is simply taxed less

2> "I didn't commit a crime. What I did was fail to comply with the law."
2> Yours is nothing but a semantic game of sophistry.

> Rubbish !

It's that, too.

> It's entirely legitimate for governments to promote certain industries
> by preferential tax treatmemt at source or whatever. It is done
> regularly.

Yes. And there's a word for when governments promote certain industries by
preferential tax treatment. The word is "subsidy".
Pooh Bear - 28 Jul 2005 23:19 GMT
> Yes. And there's a word for when governments promote certain industries by
> preferential tax treatment. The word is "subsidy".

You're missing the point. ( again )

There is no *LAW*  that says all fuel types have to be taxed at the same rate.

Government chooses to tax various fuels as it sees fit to suit its agenda.

It is entirely legitimate to impose a low tax on a low polluting fuel.

Graham
Daniel J. Stern - 29 Jul 2005 00:05 GMT
> > Yes. And there's a word for when governments promote certain industries by
> > preferential tax treatment. The word is "subsidy".

> You're missing the point. ( again )

The point is that ethanol is subsidized. Period.

> There is no *LAW* that says all fuel types have to be taxed at the same
> rate.

I never claimed otherwise.
Pooh Bear - 29 Jul 2005 00:55 GMT
> > > Yes. And there's a word for when governments promote certain industries by
> > > preferential tax treatment. The word is "subsidy".
>
> > You're missing the point. ( again )
>
> The point is that ethanol is subsidized. Period.

To be entirely accurate, it is taxed 'preferentially' in Europe.

Likewise, energy for home heating is taxed preferentially ( almost nil tax
actually ).

Does that mean that Europe is 'subsidising' home energy usage ?

Graham
Daniel J. Stern - 29 Jul 2005 01:00 GMT
> > > > Yes. And there's a word for when governments promote certain
> > > > industries by preferential tax treatment. The word is "subsidy".

> > > You're missing the point. ( again )
> >
> > The point is that ethanol is subsidized. Period.
>
> To be entirely accurate, it is taxed 'preferentially' in Europe.

Preferential taxation is a type of subsidy.

Round and round and round we go!

> Likewise, energy for home heating is taxed preferentially ( almost nil
> tax actually ).

Jolly good, but -- like your aviation fuel tangent -- the taxation of home
heating fuel is irrelevant to this discussion of on-road motor fuels.
Pooh Bear - 29 Jul 2005 04:09 GMT
> > > > > Yes. And there's a word for when governments promote certain
> > > > > industries by preferential tax treatment. The word is "subsidy".
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Preferential taxation is a type of subsidy.

I disagree.

I can't see how you can arbitrarily say all fuel has to be taxed at the same
level. Governments intentionally use taxation to acheive certain aims. None is
a *subsidy*. All taxes are inded *taxes* - they make things cost *more*.

You are saying that less tax is a *subsidy* - I simply say it's means it costs
less. All tax revenue is income as far as the government is concerned. They
aren't actually giving money away.

> Round and round and round we go!
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Jolly good, but -- like your aviation fuel tangent -- the taxation of home
> heating fuel is irrelevant to this discussion of on-road motor fuels.

In which case please consider that any tax - however low - is government
revenue - not a subsidy.

A subsidy means that the government is actually giving money away.

Graham
Daniel J. Stern - 29 Jul 2005 15:30 GMT
> > Preferential taxation is a type of subsidy.
>
> I disagree.

Naw sh.t. Really?

> You are saying that less tax is a *subsidy* - I simply say it's means it
> costs less.

...poTAYto, poTAHto, toMAYto, toMAHto, oh, let's call the whole thing
off...
Bill Funk - 29 Jul 2005 15:30 GMT
>> > > > > Yes. And there's a word for when governments promote certain
>> > > > > industries by preferential tax treatment. The word is "subsidy".
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
>Graham

Obviously, you don't understand that taxes do far more than raise
revenue, by design.
Ever hear of a "sin tax"?
While true that taxes do not need to be the same for all instances of
a class, it's not too smart to think that different levels of taxation
are merely some demonstration of a rolling of the dice to determine an
actual tax rate.

Is lower taxation a subsidy or not? In some ways, yes, and in some
ways no.
Income taxes have different levels, and the lowest (earned income
credit) is indeed a subsidy, in the classic sense.
If taxation is merely about revenue generation, as some think, then a
lower tax rate for certain instances within a class (certain fuel
types, for example) can be seen as a subsidy, since the government is
is allowing those who buy that less-taxed fuel to keep money they
otherwise wouldn't have been able to - in effect a transfer of
revenue.

But taxation is not just about revenue. This is obvious.
Take sales taxes. If these were merely about revenue, then *all*
purchases should be taxed. They aren't.
Take income tax. If it were merely about revenue, the *amount* of
income would not determine the taxation level.
Since the above is true (we are dealing with reality), taxation can't
be about merely revenue generation.
Obviously, then, there are reasons for why taxation levels and
applications are the way they are.
Having the ability to read and reason, I can determine that many taxes
are indeed done to discourage certain behaviour; an example would be
taxes on cigarettes.
I can also determine that some items of a class are taxed at lower
rates to encourage certain behaviour; one example would be lower fuel
taxes on diesel fuel used for farming. Another would be lower taxes on
ethonal used as part of a motor fuel.

Taxation isn't anywhere as simple as some would see it.

Signature

Bill Funk
replace "g" with "a"
funktionality.blogspot.com

Daniel J. Stern - 29 Jul 2005 18:52 GMT
> You are saying that less tax is a *subsidy* - I simply say it's means it
> costs less. All tax revenue is income as far as the government is
> concerned. They aren't actually giving money away.

Alright, go ahead and explain the effective difference between the
following two scenarios, in which widgets and narndles are two different
types of the same product class (as, for instance, gasoline and ethanol
roadgoing-motor fuel):

1) Government taxes each widget $1, and each narndle $2.

2) Government taxes widgets and narndles at $2 apiece, and pays widget
makers $1 per widget sold.
Bill Funk - 29 Jul 2005 22:23 GMT
>> You are saying that less tax is a *subsidy* - I simply say it's means it
>> costs less. All tax revenue is income as far as the government is
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>2) Government taxes widgets and narndles at $2 apiece, and pays widget
>makers $1 per widget sold.

If we assume that widgets and narndles are marketed at the same cost,
and are both equally desired by consumers:
The first reduces the cost to the consumer, which would, if cost were
the only consideration of the consumer, mean more sales to the
producer.
The second reduces costs to the producer, which would, if that cost
reduction were passed on to the consumer, and if, as in the first,
cost were the only consideration to the consumer, have the same effect
as the first.

That's a lot of ifs.
It's further confused by the fact that widgets and narndles may not be
of equal desirability to the consumer, and the prices orf widgets and
narndles may be so far apart that the one dollar per unit difference
may not even be noticed by the consumer, or be weighed equally in any
case.

IOW, the effective difference may be great or minimal.

Signature

Bill Funk
replace "g" with "a"
funktionality.blogspot.com

John S. - 27 Jul 2005 16:59 GMT
> > > > Recent gvt study showed it took more energy to produce the ethanol
> > > > then you got out of it.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> for motor use is being kickstarted ( demand wise ) by lower taxation of
> the pump price.

The U.S. government is also trying to kick start, prime the pump,
grease the skids or otherwise get the the domestic ethanol industry to
do something productive.  If the government drops the price by removing
vehicle taxes or providing direct cash subsidies the result could be an
artificially high demand if the price is dropped low enough.  In the
U.S. we are apparently not subsidizing it enough to manufacture that
demand.  I'm not clear whether the europeans have been any more
successful.

Still, at some point those subsidies are going to have to be removed
for the ethanol project to make any economic sense. Another possibility
would be for the government to mandate that all fuel include some
percentage of ethanol.  The subsidy would then more apparent than when
it is funded by transfers of taxes.

> Graham
Pooh Bear - 28 Jul 2005 20:09 GMT
> > > > > Recent gvt study showed it took more energy to produce the ethanol
> > > > > then you got out of it.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> demand.  I'm not clear whether the europeans have been any more
> successful.

There's a big difference between US and European taxation of motor fuel.

As I understand it, US fuel is not much taxed. In Europe it is heavily taxed
'at the pump'.

UK motor fuel is almost 80% tax revenue. That gives phenomenal scope to adjust
demand.

> Still, at some point those subsidies are going to have to be removed
> for the ethanol project to make any economic sense. Another possibility
> would be for the government to mandate that all fuel include some
> percentage of ethanol.  The subsidy would then more apparent than when
> it is funded by transfers of taxes.

In due course, I expect that economies of scale will alone make fuel ethanol
prices drop. In that case, I'm sure that governement will adjust taxation
accordingly so as to maximise their revenue from its sale !

Graham
DTJ - 27 Jul 2005 00:11 GMT
>>  It's a loser for everyone but the farmers and
>> companies getting gvt subsidies for it.  It's a typical stupid feel
>> good gvt initiative that's worthless or worse then worthless.
>
>Actually it's the future.

Every reliable source I have seen says it takes 1.5 gallons of oil to
make 1 gallon of ethanol.  Only an idiot would suggest this is good.
John S. - 27 Jul 2005 00:48 GMT
> >>  It's a loser for everyone but the farmers and
> >> companies getting gvt subsidies for it.  It's a typical stupid feel
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Every reliable source I have seen says it takes 1.5 gallons of oil to
> make 1 gallon of ethanol.  Only an idiot would suggest this is good.

What is the conversion ratio of crude to refined oil products.
Pooh Bear - 27 Jul 2005 03:39 GMT
> > >>  It's a loser for everyone but the farmers and
> > >> companies getting gvt subsidies for it.  It's a typical stupid feel
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> What is the conversion ratio of crude to refined oil products.

Dunno but it takes energy to refine crude to make petroleum fuels.

Also...

Energy Balance/Life Cycle Inventory for Ethanol, Biodiesel and Petroleum
Fuels, Minnesota Department of Agriculture -- ... "The finished liquid fuel
energy yield for fossil fuel dedicated to the production of ethanol is 1.34
but only 0.74 for gasoline. In other words the energy yield of ethanol is
(1.34/0.74) or 81 percent greater than the comparable yield for gasoline."
http://www.mda.state.mn.us/Ethanol/balance.html

Graham
John S. - 27 Jul 2005 14:43 GMT
> > > >>  It's a loser for everyone but the farmers and
> > > >> companies getting gvt subsidies for it.  It's a typical stupid feel
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> (1.34/0.74) or 81 percent greater than the comparable yield for gasoline."
> http://www.mda.state.mn.us/Ethanol/balance.html

My point exactly.  There is both a processing cost and a loss of energy
(source product) whenever one source of energy is converted to another.
George Bush conveniently forgot this problem when he touted the fuel
cell as the automotive energy source of the future.
Pooh Bear - 28 Jul 2005 19:59 GMT
> > > > >>  It's a loser for everyone but the farmers and
> > > > >> companies getting gvt subsidies for it.  It's a typical stupid feel
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>  George Bush conveniently forgot this problem when he touted the fuel
> cell as the automotive energy source of the future.

Indeed.

The only true comparison is when all costs ( energy used in refining, transport ,
whatever ) are considerd 'in toto' to provide a true processing cost for the
finished product.

Petroleum products actually don't fare too well in such a comparison.

Graham
John S. - 29 Jul 2005 16:43 GMT
> > > > > >>  It's a loser for everyone but the farmers and
> > > > > >> companies getting gvt subsidies for it.  It's a typical stupid feel
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Petroleum products actually don't fare too well in such a comparison.

Yes, and that is where battery powered cars fall down as well.  There
are losses at each step of conversion.  Unfortunately politicians and
proponents of one technology tend to ignore the total cost of
transforming energy from a given source to an end use.
Pooh Bear - 27 Jul 2005 02:57 GMT
> >>  It's a loser for everyone but the farmers and
> >> companies getting gvt subsidies for it.  It's a typical stupid feel
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Every reliable source I have seen says it takes 1.5 gallons of oil to
> make 1 gallon of ethanol.  Only an idiot would suggest this is good.

Clealry that situation would be counter productive.

I only wish I had more info on the technique being used in Sweden where
they're making ethanol from wood waste.

Graham
JohnH - 27 Jul 2005 03:12 GMT
> Every reliable source I have seen says it takes 1.5 gallons of oil to
> make 1 gallon of ethanol.  Only an idiot would suggest this is good.

Homer starts a grease recycling company:

Homer: Woo-hoo! 63 cents!
Bart: But dad, all that bacon cost $27.
Homer: Yeah, but your mom bought that.
Bart: But doesn't she get her money from you?
Homer: And I get my money from grease.
Pooh Bear - 27 Jul 2005 03:34 GMT
> >>  It's a loser for everyone but the farmers and
> >> companies getting gvt subsidies for it.  It's a typical stupid feel
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Every reliable source I have seen says it takes 1.5 gallons of oil to
> make 1 gallon of ethanol.  Only an idiot would suggest this is good.

So  I googled and my first hit was this.

" In the US most ethanol is made from corn (maize). A US Department of
Agriculture study concludes that ethanol contains 34% more energy than is
used to grow and harvest the corn and distill it into ethanol. "

http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html

Graham
Bill Funk - 27 Jul 2005 16:18 GMT
>>>  It's a loser for everyone but the farmers and
>>> companies getting gvt subsidies for it.  It's a typical stupid feel
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Every reliable source I have seen says it takes 1.5 gallons of oil to
>make 1 gallon of ethanol.  Only an idiot would suggest this is good.

Maybe it would be bettert to think of this in the sens that it takes
the 'equivelent' of 1.5 gallons of oil to make one gallon of ethanol.
That energy doesn't need to come from oil; it could be, for example,
from a nuclear plant, or solar, or wind, or any of many other sources.
Thinking this way, ethanol makes sense, since tjhe originating source
of energy can be stationary, much cheaper and easier to control in the
sense of pollution generation.
Using this stationary source of energy makes much more sense than
burning he oil in a car.

Signature

Bill Funk
replace "g" with "a"
funktionality.blogspot.com

Ashton Crusher - 29 Jul 2005 06:23 GMT
>> Recent gvt study showed it took more energy to produce the ethanol
>> then you got out of it.
>
>Frankly that's rather difficuult to believe.

It shouldn't be.  There is a reason why no one used ethanol until it
became heavily subsidized by YOUR taxes.

Here's info from the study...

"There is just no energy benefit to using plant biomass for liquid
fuel," says David Pimentel, professor of ecology and agriculture at
Cornell. "These strategies are not sustainable."

Pimentel and Tad W. Patzek, professor of civil and environmental
engineering at Berkeley, conducted a detailed analysis of the energy
input-yield ratios of producing ethanol from corn, switch grass and
wood biomass as well as for producing biodiesel from soybean and
sunflower plants. Their report is published in Natural Resources
Research (Vol. 14:1, 65-76).

In terms of energy output compared with energy input for ethanol
production, the study found that:

-- corn requires 29 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced;
-- switch grass requires 45 percent more fossil energy than the fuel
produced; and
-- wood biomass requires 57 percent more fossil energy than the fuel
produced.

In terms of energy output compared with the energy input for biodiesel
production, the study found that:

-- soybean plants requires 27 percent more fossil energy than the fuel
produced, and
-- sunflower plants requires 118 percent more fossil energy than the
fuel produced.

In assessing inputs, the researchers considered such factors as the
energy used in producing the crop (including production of pesticides
and fertilizer, running farm machinery and irrigating, grinding and
transporting the crop) and in fermenting/distilling the ethanol from
the water mix. Although additional costs are incurred, such as federal
and state subsidies that are passed on to consumers and the costs
associated with environmental pollution or degradation, these figures
were not included in the analysis.

"The United State desperately needs a liquid fuel replacement for oil
in the near future," says Pimentel, "but producing ethanol or
biodiesel from plant biomass is going down the wrong road, because you
use more energy to produce these fuels than you get out from the
combustion of these products."

Although Pimentel advocates the use of burning biomass to produce
thermal energy (to heat homes, for example), he deplores the use of
biomass for liquid fuel. "The government spends more than $3 billion a
year to subsidize ethanol production when it does not provide a net
energy balance or gain, is not a renewable energy source or an
economical fuel. Further, its production and use contribute to air,
water and soil pollution and global warming," Pimentel says. He points
out that the vast majority of the subsidies do not go to farmers but
to large ethanol-producing corporations.

"Ethanol production in the United States does not benefit the nation's
energy security, its agriculture, economy or the environment," says
Pimentel. "Ethanol production requires large fossil energy input, and
therefore, it is contributing to oil and natural gas imports and U.S.
deficits." He says the country should instead focus its efforts on
producing electrical energy from photovoltaic cells, wind power and
burning biomass and producing fuel from hydrogen conversion.

Source: Cornell University

>Also doesn't seem to stop it being used. If the energy to make it also comes
>from bio sources it's largely academic anyway !
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>Graham
Mgrant - 29 Jul 2005 16:00 GMT
Reading Ashton Crusher's comment above, I find it disheartening that
everyone believes Pimental and the Cornell Study without questioning
it, it just prooves that people will believe anything said by anyone. I
classify Pimental as an "anyone". Below, I have reposted a comment I
made about this study that I had made on another newsgroup...

The two researchers behind this Cornell/Berkeley study, David Pimentel
and Tad Patzek, need to answer a lot of credibility questions regarding
their latest report against biofuels. Besides the fact that much of
their studies in the 70s were sponsored by Exxon, I question the
credibilty of both researchers. I cut and pasted the following from
this website:
http://www.agriculture.com/ag/ story.jhtml?storyid=/templated
ata/ag/st...

"Pimentel is an insect ecologist in the department of entomology at
Cornell University. He is one of the scientists who in 2000 famously
found that milkweed leaves dusted with heavy concentrations of Bt corn
pollen were toxic to Monarch butterfly larvae. Tad W. Patzek is a civil
and environmental engineer at the University of California at Berkeley.

"Corzine says Patzek was a longtime employee of Shell Oil Company and
founder of the UC Oil Consortium, which has counted BP, Chevron USA,
Mobil USA, Shell and Unocal among its members. He also is a member of
the Society of Petroleum Engineers."

Personally, I find the findings of Pimentel and Patzek biased and
laughable.

Mike
Daniel J. Stern - 29 Jul 2005 18:39 GMT
> Personally, I find the findings of Pimentel and Patzek biased and
> laughable.

Translation: Their findings fail to conform to your guesses, opinions and
preferences.
Mgrant - 31 Jul 2005 20:51 GMT
Daniel,
No, they fail to convince me, not conform to my opinions. I'm proud to
say that I am not one of the sheep that blindly follows what big oil
and big brother instructs us to think; in other words, I laugh at their
propaganda. Big oil and big government would like to convince us that
it is unpatriotic to think that we should reduce our dependance on
Saudi (Terrorist Pumped) oil and develope the biofuels industry. The
sad fact of the matter is, the current majority that is running our
government are paid to lobby for the oil industry and many of those oil
firms have vested interests in the Middle East, hence our current
presence in Iraq and the anti-biofuel propaganda machine fueled by the
oil industry. The current unbridled monopoly, record profits and stock
prices, and price gouging that the oil companies have on us should be a
wake up call to anyone who can think independantly and should embrace
biofuels as a viable competitor to big oil; though I believe in free
enterprise and I do not think big oil should be legislated away, just
done away by competition. I'm not going to try convince you that
biofuels are economically feasable, I already know they are from first
hand experience and you are convinced that they are not, so no amount
of scientific proof will ever undo the brainwashing the government and
big oil has imposed on you. So, before you accuse me of using guesses,
opinions, and preferences, you better look at yourself in the mirror
and wipe the crude off your face before it permanently stains.

Mike
Daniel J. Stern - 31 Jul 2005 22:23 GMT
> Daniel,
> No, they fail to convince me, not conform to my opinions.

ToMAYto, toMAHto.

I've snipped your rant about big oil and big government and suchlike,
'cause it's neither responsive nor relevant. I'm absolutely in favor of
reducing American dependence on foreign oil. It just doesn't appear that
ethanol is the right way to do it.
Mgrant - 31 Jul 2005 23:53 GMT
"It just doesn't appear that
ethanol is the right way to do it."

Who says, Pimental & Patzak? HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! Boy, he he
he, this is the joke of the new millenium!! Too bad the joke is on
us...
Mgrant - 31 Jul 2005 20:54 GMT
Oh yea, one last question Daniel: How much in dollars and cents do we
subsidise the oil industry with military equipment, tax breaks, and
human (US Servicemen-God Bless Their Souls) lives?
223rem - 26 Jul 2005 06:55 GMT
> SAAB 9-5 2.OT Biopower Sedan
> SPECS GASOLINE E85
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> So it's possible to be green and have a hot car too.

LMAO. Hot car?!
Pooh Bear - 26 Jul 2005 12:49 GMT
> > SAAB 9-5 2.OT Biopower Sedan
> > SPECS GASOLINE E85
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> LMAO. Hot car?!

I drive a Saab turbo as it happens. It's enough to put the smile on *my*
face. I'd be surprised if more than a few percent of the cars out there
are either more fun to drive or actually much quicker.

Graham
223rem - 26 Jul 2005 13:25 GMT
> I drive a Saab turbo as it happens. It's enough to put the smile on *my*
> face. I'd be surprised if more than a few percent of the cars out there
> are either more fun to drive or actually much quicker.

Here in the US if you want a Saab with decent power (over 250 horses) you
need to spend over 30 grand. And even then, there are lots of much cheaper
cars that are faster--Pontiacs and Chevrolets for example.
Scott en Aztlán - 27 Jul 2005 03:49 GMT
>> I drive a Saab turbo as it happens. It's enough to put the smile on *my*
>> face. I'd be surprised if more than a few percent of the cars out there
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>need to spend over 30 grand. And even then, there are lots of much cheaper
>cars that are faster--Pontiacs and Chevrolets for example.

Or a new Mustang GT.
gcmschemist@gmail.com - 31 Jul 2005 21:03 GMT
> >> I drive a Saab turbo as it happens. It's enough to put the smile on *my*
> >> face. I'd be surprised if more than a few percent of the cars out there
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Or a new Mustang GT.

Yabbut...

They may be faster, but they're still GMs or Fords.

Nowadays, tho' - you buy a Saab, and you're buying a GM product.  Just
not so craptastically ugly.

E.P.
John S. - 26 Jul 2005 17:44 GMT
> Popular Science
> July 2005
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> So it's possible to be green and have a hot car too.

Given that the Ethanol alternative fuel industry is heavily subsidized
and still doesn't attract much investor interest (or produce much
output) I don't think it would be viable on it's own.
Pooh Bear - 27 Jul 2005 02:58 GMT
> > Popular Science
> > July 2005
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> and still doesn't attract much investor interest (or produce much
> output) I don't think it would be viable on it's own.

So how does it work out in Brazil then ?

Graham
John S. - 27 Jul 2005 16:29 GMT
Can't tell you anyting about Brazil.  Do you know how much Brasilia
subsidizes it as an automotive fule substitute?
Pooh Bear - 28 Jul 2005 20:11 GMT
> Can't tell you anyting about Brazil.  Do you know how much Brasilia
> subsidizes it as an automotive fule substitute?

To be honest - I have no idea.

Graham
 
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