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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / September 2005

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N.J. Man Killed, Teen Locked Up After Road Rage Incident

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BE - 14 Sep 2005 21:27 GMT
MOUNT LAUREL, N.J. -- Enraged after being cut off by a teen driver,
authorities say a man then followed the high school athlete home and tried
to run the youth down with his car. Instead, the 53-year-old was punched
into unconsciousness and died Tuesday.

http://www.wnbc.com/traffic/4970761/detail.html
Alexander Rogge - 15 Sep 2005 00:29 GMT
> http://www.wnbc.com/traffic/4970761/detail.html 

"[He] rolled off the hood of Munter's 1999 Mercury Sable."

Aggravated assault?  He was hit by the Sloth!  There was one case of a
neighbour being followed home because a slowpoke didn't like being
passed on the left.  He drove around the block for awhile before calling
for support.  The Sloth backed up very fast and left the area after
seeing what could happen next.  That "53-year-old" wouldn't have made it
far enough to hit me.  After proper warning and attempts to make him
crash into something else, the Sloth at least would've needed an ambulance.
Sir Lex - 15 Sep 2005 00:53 GMT
>  MOUNT LAUREL, N.J. -- Enraged after being cut off by a teen driver,
> authorities say a man then followed the high school athlete home and tried
> to run the youth down with his car. Instead, the 53-year-old was punched
> into unconsciousness and died Tuesday.
>
> http://www.wnbc.com/traffic/4970761/detail.html 

The man didn't *try* to run him down, he successfully hit the youth with
his car.   The teen rolled off the bonnet and landed on his feet.  The
teen walked to the drivers door and then administered only *two* blows
to the drivers head with his fist (no weapon).

I reckon this one is easily self defense, the other driver was doing his
best to severely injure this kid and could have easily killed him.  If
anyone had just been *deliberately* hit by another car when trying to
run into their house, then they wouldn't be in a normal state of mind
and may well inadvertently administer excessive self defense.

Yes the teen cut off the other bloke, but this man was clearly a moron
behind the wheel with anger management issues and no doubt would've been
a fatality waiting to happen.

I was cut off on my motorbike twice on a ride earlier in the week.  I
flashed my high beams at one bloke, and ignored the other, that was the
end of it.  Why follow someone?  It *will* lead to unnecessary trouble.

Signature

SL

"The essence of propaganda consists in winning people over
to an idea so sincerely, so vitally, that in the end they
succumb to it utterly and can never again escape from it"

Joseph Goebbels - Nazi Minister of Propaganda, 1933 - 1945

Scott en Aztlán - 15 Sep 2005 04:18 GMT
> MOUNT LAUREL, N.J. -- Enraged after being cut off by a teen driver,
>authorities say a man then followed the high school athlete home and tried
>to run the youth down with his car. Instead, the 53-year-old was punched
>into unconsciousness and died Tuesday.

So now that arrogant little punk is not only a shitty driver, he's a
murderer too.
Dave C. - 15 Sep 2005 04:47 GMT
> > MOUNT LAUREL, N.J. -- Enraged after being cut off by a teen driver,
> >authorities say a man then followed the high school athlete home and tried
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> So now that arrogant little punk is not only a shitty driver, he's a
> murderer too.

Scott - What the f.ck, man?  Did you really write that?

We had attempted murder followed by a couple of punches from the intended
victim of attempted murder delivered to the head of the perp.  The perp
later died.  I guess it doesn't pay to attempt to murder someone.  This
teenager should not be in jail.  He is NOT a murderer.  I think he snapped,
as any person in that situation would.  If someone had successfully and
deliberately hit me with their car (that was NOT an accident), I would sure
as Hell be deliberately trying to cause them bodily harm afterward.  You try
to kill me, the GLOVES ARE OFF.

How can you call the victim here an arrogant little punk and a murderer?
Sheesh.  He reacted in a sane, reasonable manner, as anyone would, if
someone else tried to kill them.  -Dave
223rem - 15 Sep 2005 05:50 GMT
> This teenager should not be in jail.  He is NOT a murderer.

Absolutely. What the f.ck is the DA thinking? Sure, investigate,
but dont hold him in jail. Road rage f.cks should take notice
of this case.
Matthew Russotto - 19 Sep 2005 04:02 GMT
>We had attempted murder followed by a couple of punches from the intended
>victim of attempted murder delivered to the head of the perp.

While the perp was still in possession of the weapon.

>How can you call the victim here an arrogant little punk and a murderer?
>Sheesh.  He reacted in a sane, reasonable manner, as anyone would, if
>someone else tried to kill them.  -Dave

The person killed was a middle-aged man.  The person who did the
killing was a teenager.  That's enough for a conviction in the eyes of
many, apparently including Scott.
Signature

 There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
 result in a fully-depreciated one.

223rem - 15 Sep 2005 04:47 GMT
>>MOUNT LAUREL, N.J. -- Enraged after being cut off by a teen driver,
>>authorities say a man then followed the high school athlete home and tried
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> So now that arrogant little punk is not only a shitty driver, he's a
> murderer too.

What the hell are you talking about?

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newjersey/ny-bc-nj--roadrage0913sep13,0,7
512723,print.story?coll=ny-region-apnewjersey


If that's what happened, it was self-defense. The a.shole who followed him home
got what he deserved.
Bernard Farquart - 15 Sep 2005 06:24 GMT
>>>MOUNT LAUREL, N.J. -- Enraged after being cut off by a teen driver,
>>>authorities say a man then followed the high school athlete home and
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> home
> got what he deserved.

No sh.t, and if you read between the lines, just a bit--

Munter's son-in-law, Mark Serota, who described the man as "nice,
fun-loving, goodhearted," said he lost consciousness instantly and never
regained it.

Serota said police had asked the family not to talk about the details of the
incident, including whether it seemed in character for Munter to follow or
confront someone he considered to be a rude driver.

Had this guy done this before?

Rather odd instructions on what to not speak of, don't ya think?

Bernard
Ad absurdum per aspera - 15 Sep 2005 16:58 GMT
> confront someone he considered to be a rude driver

"Confront" seems rather a tactical choice of words.  I'd say that
yelling "Where'd you learn to drive, you [Army Word] idiot?" and going
your own way is confronting somebody; what he did,  according to the
news report, could be more like an attack.

Now, what the DA's probably wondering is, what options did the kid have
besides going up to the driver and punching him out?  In many states
(well, probably everywhere as an informal matter) something called a
"reasonable man" test is applied in the aftermath of use of deadly
force.  They might be arguing that a reasonable man would have sought
refuge, perhaps by running someplace where a car couldn't follow.  You
can see where the physical circumstances of that final confrontation
would play into this.

That's just one part of the official Monday-morning quarterbacking
concerning how else one might have solved the problem, and whether the
threat (to which in most states, usually, you're allowed to react
proportionately) was still in effect or had dissipated, etc.

Though the deceased is not physically described in the article, the
fact that the teenager was a very large (6-foot-6, 300 pounds) athlete
a third his age will doubtless figure into this as well.

So will a lot of other things, many of which would not appear in
initial (or possibly any other) media reports, all of them filtered
through the ritualized artificial world of the justice system.  One of
them will be state of mind.

Another will be whether the guy really did purposely run him over.  So
will what he was doing in the moments leading up to the fatal punchout:
trying to get away?  trying to run him down again?  screaming
something provocative?  apologizing?  just sitting there with his mouth
hanging open?

Along with the drug states of both parties.

The real world is messier and more subtle than it sometimes seems in
the newspapers -- and definitely more so than when the lawyers and
spokesmen on either side are trying to spin it their way.  That's why
we have juries.   I must admit that there could be more to this than
presently meets the eye.

The one thing I can make a high-confidence guess about, based on the
WNBC story, is that the now deceased driver had three miles in which to
disengage at any time, and as a man in his 50s might even have used his
putative superior maturity to take advantage of them, but instead
followed his opponent home.  The defense may well focus on that,
arguing that it was his fight to start or not.  

--Joe
Brent P - 15 Sep 2005 21:01 GMT
> Now, what the DA's probably wondering is, what options did the kid have
> besides going up to the driver and punching him out?  In many states
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> can see where the physical circumstances of that final confrontation
> would play into this.

Having thought about this for a bit, if some hit me on purpose and I had
the chance to strike back, I would do some serious and costly damage to
their vehicle if it looked like it was worth anything.

I don't think I could actually strike the person unless he came out of
his vehicle and attacked me. I would probably act to render the vehicle
useless or at least clearly mark it.
Dave C. - 15 Sep 2005 23:30 GMT
> > confront someone he considered to be a rude driver
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> force.  They might be arguing that a reasonable man would have sought
> refuge, perhaps by running someplace where a car couldn't follow.

If someone hits you with a car, it's safe to assume that they might try it
again.  You can't outrun a car.  Unless there is a nearby obstacle sturdy
enough to stop a car, probably your best option after you get hit with the
car the first time is to try to disable the driver.  That is, assuming that
getting hit with the car didn't disable YOU to the point where it's not
possible to defend yourself.  -Dave
Scott en Aztlán - 16 Sep 2005 05:39 GMT
>> confront someone he considered to be a rude driver
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>can see where the physical circumstances of that final confrontation
>would play into this.

BINGO.

Self-defense is going to be a tough sell to the jury...
223rem - 16 Sep 2005 05:51 GMT
> Self-defense is going to be a tough sell to the jury...

Not if the jury is not made up of hysterical soccer moms.

It was preemptive self defense. That psycho tried to run him
over once. He needed to do something to  prevent the psycho from murdering
him, his dad, or from ramming his truck.

The kid ought to be aquitted. He is not a criminal. And judging by other's posts, I'm
not alone in that opinion.
Pooh Bear - 16 Sep 2005 07:21 GMT
> It was preemptive self defense.

That's a contradiction isn't it ?

Graham
223rem - 16 Sep 2005 09:53 GMT
>>It was preemptive self defense.
>
> That's a contradiction isn't it ?
>
> Graham

Not at all, according to our President.
The US attacked Iraq in an act of preemptive
self defense against an attack with their
devastating weapons of mass destruction
(remember the autonomous planes Saddam had,
equipped with WMDs, and able to reach the US?).
Pooh Bear - 17 Sep 2005 00:52 GMT
> >>It was preemptive self defense.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> self defense against an attack with their
> devastating weapons of mass destruction

Oh right - yup a contradiction or something - lol.        ;-)

> (remember the autonomous planes Saddam had,
> equipped with WMDs, and able to reach the US?).

I hadn't actually heard that particular flight of fancy !

Graham
223rem - 17 Sep 2005 02:37 GMT
> I hadn't actually heard that particular flight of fancy !

From http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/28/iraq/main570588.shtml

"In building its case for war, senior Bush administration

officials had said Iraq's drones were intended to deliver

unconventional weapons. Secretary of State Colin Powell

even raised the alarming prospect that the pilotless

aircraft could sneak into the United States to

carry out poisonous attacks on American cities. "

LAMO. Colin Powell, of all people, knew full well that he
was spouting brazen lies.

Anwyay, amazing, eh, the amount of bullshit the Bush supporters
swallowed unmasticated.
Pooh Bear - 17 Sep 2005 06:27 GMT
> > I hadn't actually heard that particular flight of fancy !
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> carry out poisonous attacks on American cities. "

Astonishing ! Now you mention it I may have heard a bit of this but I
would have dismissed it pure nonsence. Did your media 'buy it'
unquestioningly ?

> LAMO. Colin Powell, of all people, knew full well that he
> was spouting brazen lies.
>
> Anwyay, amazing, eh, the amount of bullshit the Bush supporters
> swallowed unmasticated.

Totally whacked. Maybe Blair though he'd be able to pull the wool over
the eyes of us Brits too but there was a strong anti-war sentiment over
here that, quite frankly, he still hasn't come to terms with.

Graham
223rem - 17 Sep 2005 14:32 GMT
> Astonishing ! Now you mention it I may have heard a bit of this but I
> would have dismissed it pure nonsence. Did your media 'buy it'
> unquestioningly ?

The media helped sell it to the American people. I'm pretty sure
most people in the news media knew that it was all nonsense, but
given the power and influence of the so-called NeoConservative
Intellectuals (Google that!) over and in the media, they either regurgitated
the WH crap (Fox News, Wall Street Journal, Judith Miller at NYT, Wolf Blitzer at CNN)
or never dared really question the WH claims (except for a
number of small-circulation, high-brow current events magazines such as
The New Yorker, Harpers' Magazine or the Atlantic Monthly. BTW, those are the
only such magazines worth reading. Time and Newsweek are sh.t.).
Pooh Bear - 17 Sep 2005 15:26 GMT
> > Astonishing ! Now you mention it I may have heard a bit of this but I
> > would have dismissed it pure nonsence. Did your media 'buy it'
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> The New Yorker, Harpers' Magazine or the Atlantic Monthly. BTW, those are the
> only such magazines worth reading. Time and Newsweek are sh.t.).

Wow ! I think the UK media would have blown the idea out of the water had it been
presented over here.

Interesting that you mention Harper's. Doesn't Hitchens write for that ( and he's pro-was
as I understand it ) ?

Graham
Brent P - 18 Sep 2005 07:27 GMT
> or never dared really question the WH claims

They were the same claims democrats made in the 1990s! they didn't
question them then either.

Two parties. No choice.
DTJ - 17 Sep 2005 21:07 GMT
>> (remember the autonomous planes Saddam had,
>> equipped with WMDs, and able to reach the US?).
>
>I hadn't actually heard that particular flight of fancy !

That is because idiot boy made up those claims, and is attempting to
place the blame on the president.  What do you expect from a liberal
weenie.
Bernard Farquart - 18 Sep 2005 01:11 GMT
>>> (remember the autonomous planes Saddam had,
>>> equipped with WMDs, and able to reach the US?).
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> place the blame on the president.  What do you expect from a liberal
> weenie.

Dude, not to step on your toes, but that one was floated

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,79450,00.html

Bernard
DTJ - 18 Sep 2005 19:42 GMT
>>>> (remember the autonomous planes Saddam had,
>>>> equipped with WMDs, and able to reach the US?).
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Bernard

No.  The OP said "able to reach the US", which means capable of
launching in Iraq and flying to the US.  The article you refer to
clearly says "may be capable" and "researching" and other qualified
comments about their capability to fly up to about 300 miles.  Iraq is
slightly farther away than that.  Additionally there was no claim in
the article that SH had actually "equipped with WMDs".

I am quite sure that had you made the original post, your choice of
words would have been far more accurate.
Scott en Aztlán - 17 Sep 2005 05:59 GMT
>> Self-defense is going to be a tough sell to the jury...
>
>Not if the jury is not made up of hysterical soccer moms.
>
>It was preemptive self defense. That psycho tried to run him
>over once.

We don't know that - we weren't there.

For all we know, the punk was trying to attack, and the man was simply
trying to escape when the punk ran in front of his car and
accidentally got hit.
Old Wolf - 18 Sep 2005 23:58 GMT
>>> Self-defense is going to be a tough sell to the jury...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> simply trying to escape when the punk ran in front of his car and
> accidentally got hit.

The article says:
   When the teen arrived home, Zucker said, he ran across the
   street to his home from his still-idling truck, but he was
   not fast enough. With the teen's father watching, Munter
   drove into the youth, authorities said.

Following someone for 3 miles and screaming at them, then running
them down as they try to flee on foot, is noy my idea of
"trying to escape".

Another point: howcome you Americans only care about copyright
when it is movies or MP3s? The story at:
   http://www.wnbc.com/traffic/4970761/detail.html
says at the bottom

   © 2005 by The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
   This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or
   redistributed.

But then at
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newjersey/ny-bc-nj--roadrage0913sep13,0,7
512723,print.story?coll=ny-region-apnewjersey

we have the EXACT SAME STORY, with the copyright message:

  Copyright 2005 Newsday Inc.

I hate it when I'm googling for some information on a rare disease
or some sh.t, and the first 10 links all have the exact same article,
but on totally different webpages and no references or
acknowledgements of the source.
DTJ - 17 Sep 2005 02:05 GMT
>>> confront someone he considered to be a rude driver
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>Self-defense is going to be a tough sell to the jury...

Sorry Scott, but I really think you are off base on this one.
Ignoring the possibility that you had some punk kid annoy you, and the
unlikely event that you might have followed said kid, this case is
different.

Absent all other events, if someone tries to and does run someone over
in their car, the person they hit has every right to self defense.
The right to self defense does not end once someone has tried to kill
you.  It ends when they are disabled, or when they flee the scene.
The law does not require the victim to seek refuge.

In this case, the old f.ck followed someone home and tried to kill
them.  That is attempted murder.  The victim then decided that the
best course of action was to defend himself, because his previous
attempt at evasion failed.  

The only crime we should be talking about is the cops who arrested the
victim.
Alex Rodriguez - 17 Sep 2005 04:33 GMT
>>> confront someone he considered to be a rude driver
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>Self-defense is going to be a tough sell to the jury...

Not a tough sell.  The kid initially tried to run away from the car.  It is
quite possible there was no one nearby to hide.  
----------------
Alex
Scott en Aztlán - 16 Sep 2005 05:34 GMT
>>>MOUNT LAUREL, N.J. -- Enraged after being cut off by a teen driver,
>>>authorities say a man then followed the high school athlete home and tried
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>If that's what happened, it was self-defense.

Bullshit. When the kid is standing to the SIDE of the car, he is
completely out of danger at that point - after all, cars cannot easily
drive sideways. Punching the driver once he was already out of harm's
way was pure revenge.

>The a.shole who followed him home got what he deserved.

Who drew first blood? If you read the story, you'll find the whole
incident started when the punk kid cut off the 53-year-old. If you ask
me, that murdering shitty driver kid deserved to be taken out and just
got extremely lucky.
223rem - 16 Sep 2005 06:00 GMT
>>>>MOUNT LAUREL, N.J. -- Enraged after being cut off by a teen driver,
>>>>authorities say a man then followed the high school athlete home and tried
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> drive sideways. Punching the driver once he was already out of harm's
> way was pure revenge.

Monday morning quarterbacking at its finest. Only an a.shole DA would think
like that. Clearly, the kid feared for his life. That was his motivation,
not revenge.
And he didnt have the time to consider the fine points of vehicle maneuverability.
It was disable your opponent or be killed.
Scott en Aztlán - 17 Sep 2005 06:02 GMT
>>>If that's what happened, it was self-defense.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Monday morning quarterbacking at its finest. Only an a.shole DA would think
>like that. Clearly, the kid feared for his life.

Wow, with a gift of clairvoyance like that, it's amazing that you
haven't been more successful in life.
Alexander Rogge - 16 Sep 2005 07:34 GMT
> Punching the driver once he was already out of harm's
> way was pure revenge.

I'd assume that if the attacker was crazy enough to hit me with a car,
the next thing that the attacker might do is to attack me or someone
else with a knife or a gun.  If the car was not disabled, it could've
been used to hit another person or a house.

> If you read the story, you'll find the whole
> incident started when the punk kid cut off the 53-year-old.

You're assuming that the other driver isn't a Sloth, doing stuff like
taking two lanes to turn or not accelerating at a green light.  There
are lots of ways to "cut off" Sloth drivers, but it is a crime to use a
car to hit a pedestrian who is attempting to flee.  It is also a crime
to use verbal intimidation while following a person to his residence.
Especially if there were innocent bystanders in the area, that driver
would've been out of the vehicle and on the ground very quickly.
Scott en Aztlán - 17 Sep 2005 06:06 GMT
>> Punching the driver once he was already out of harm's
>> way was pure revenge.
>
>I'd assume that if the attacker was crazy enough to hit me with a car,
>the next thing that the attacker might do is to attack me or someone
>else with a knife or a gun.  

If defense was truly the goal, the best way to achieve it would be to
run AWAY from the car, not TOWARDS it.

>> If you read the story, you'll find the whole
>> incident started when the punk kid cut off the 53-year-old.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>are lots of ways to "cut off" Sloth drivers, but it is a crime to use a
>car to hit a pedestrian who is attempting to flee.

What if the pedestrian was not fleeing, but attacking?
Alexander Rogge - 17 Sep 2005 19:43 GMT
> If defense was truly the goal, the best way to achieve it would be to
> run AWAY from the car, not TOWARDS it.

I'd assume that if the attacker was crazy enough to hit me with a car,
the next thing that the attacker might do is to attack me or someone
else with a knife or a gun.  By running away from the car, you can't
easily stop the attacker and you increase the risk of involving innocent
bystanders.

> What if the pedestrian was not fleeing, but attacking?

In such situations, the driver of the target vehicle should attempt to
escape and call police.  Only if the car is disabled and the interior is
ruptured should the occupants of the car themselves attack.
Old Wolf - 19 Sep 2005 00:03 GMT
>>> Punching the driver once he was already out of harm's
>>> way was pure revenge.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> If defense was truly the goal, the best way to achieve it would be
> to run AWAY from the car, not TOWARDS it.

He did run away, and the guy chased him down and ran him over.
If he tried running away again, chances are the guy would
chase him and run him over again. Even high school jocks aren't
that dumb.

> What if the pedestrian was not fleeing, but attacking?

According to the article, he was fleeing, and there was a witness.
Plus, if an unarmed human is attacking your car, they don't do it
by standing in front of it while it is moving !
Brent P - 16 Sep 2005 08:40 GMT
> Who drew first blood? If you read the story, you'll find the whole
> incident started when the punk kid cut off the 53-year-old.

Are you sure about that?

The 53 year old may have been another none-shall-pass passive aggressive
a.shole sloth. Ever cut it a bit close because they were intentionally
blocking passing? I am sure you have. Ever have one flip out on you? I
have.
223rem - 16 Sep 2005 15:39 GMT
Scott en Aztlán wrote: []

Are you trolling, Scottie?
Scott en Aztlán - 17 Sep 2005 20:48 GMT
>Are you trolling, Scottie?

That's the second time you've accused me of that.

Can't two people have a difference of opinion without one of them
calling the other a "troll?"
223rem - 19 Sep 2005 22:57 GMT
>>Are you trolling, Scottie?
>
> That's the second time you've accused me of that.
>
> Can't two people have a difference of opinion without one of them
> calling the other a "troll?"

Troll is maybe too strong, but it is obvious to me that you're trying
to be provocative.
Scott en Aztlán - 20 Sep 2005 07:05 GMT
>>>Are you trolling, Scottie?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Troll is maybe too strong, but it is obvious to me that you're trying
>to be provocative.

Only thought-provocative.
Ad absurdum per aspera - 16 Sep 2005 18:08 GMT
> If you read the story, you'll find the whole
> incident started when the punk kid cut off the 53-year-old. If you
> ask me, that murdering shitty driver kid deserved to be taken out

Well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.  The rest of us,
especially those who either have accidentally cut off somebody or think
it might happen someday, are entitled to disagree.

Even somebody's cutting you off on purpose doesn't justify following
him home and trying to run him over when he's on foot.  That's my
opinion and you're entitled to it.  Fair warning: the badge-and-gun
club probably shares it.

For some philosophizing from a seemingly unlikely source, before "road
rage" came into the general vocabulary but still very apropos, look
about halfway down
http://www.joebobbriggs.com/mvtranscripts/guyver.html

Cheers,
--Joe
Daniel J. Stern - 16 Sep 2005 19:17 GMT
> > If you read the story, you'll find the whole incident started when the
> > punk kid cut off the 53-year-old.

> Well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

It's mine, too. Guess it's been a leetle too long since you had close
experience with high school footballers' behavioral defects.

> The rest of us, especially those who either have accidentally cut off
> somebody or think it might happen someday, are entitled to disagree.

You apparently swallow the kid's lawyer's claim that he "inadvertently"
cut off the 53-year-old.
Ad absurdum per aspera - 16 Sep 2005 22:36 GMT
> You apparently swallow the kid's lawyer's claim that he
>"inadvertently" cut off the 53-year-old.

I don't swallow it.  I am saying that it's plausible.  I've done that,
and probably most of us here have.

Or maybe at the opposite extreme  some testosterone-soaked junior lord
of the universe was going down the road figuratively waving his thingus
in everybody's face.  Well?  That doesn't justify following him home
screaming at him and then hitting him with your car, especially if you
yourself are a grown man and therefore theoretically supposed to (a)
have some dimming memory of what being 17 was like and (b) more
generally some skills at rising above rather than actively worsening
life's petty aggravations.

The thing to keep in mind is that either interpretation of that
original incident, and in fact most of the evolution,  is at this point
the story from one side or the other.    In this and most other details
(some of them important), we don't have the whole story.  We don't even
have the Cliff's Notes yet.  We've got a couple of blurbs from the dust
jacket.

Probably, as they say, it takes two to tango.    Practical details are
left as an exercise for the detectives and jury.

Now a man is dead and a 17-year-old is going to need one fast-talking
laywer to get out of serving serious time.   I don't see a win for
anybody in this, and the only sure lesson to be learned is one we
already knew, which is that hot-reactor personalities and the petty
aggravations of driving can be a volatile combination.

Cheers,
--Joe
Scott en Aztlán - 17 Sep 2005 06:08 GMT
>> You apparently swallow the kid's lawyer's claim that he
>>"inadvertently" cut off the 53-year-old.
>
>I don't swallow it.  I am saying that it's plausible.

It's equally plausible that the murderous punk was the aggressor
through this entire incident.
223rem - 17 Sep 2005 06:13 GMT
> It's equally plausible that the murderous punk was the aggressor
> through this entire incident.

The aggressor was pursued by his victim all the way to his
house?
Scott en Aztlán - 17 Sep 2005 15:44 GMT
>> It's equally plausible that the murderous punk was the aggressor
>> through this entire incident.
>
>The aggressor was pursued by his victim all the way to his
>house?

A minute ago, you labelled this type of activity as "clearly
self-defense." Why can't you recognize it now?

Clearly the victim was following the offender while on the phone with
police, giving them a running report of where the offender was going
until the cops could send a patrol car to rendezvous.
Bernard Farquart - 18 Sep 2005 01:17 GMT
>>> It's equally plausible that the murderous punk was the aggressor
>>> through this entire incident.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> police, giving them a running report of where the offender was going
> until the cops could send a patrol car to rendezvous.

And then he "clearly" just tried to hold the "offender" under his
car to "hold" him until police could show up, right?

Are you really saying that running someone down in '
your car does not earn you a king-sized a.s whipping?

Just because the guy couldn't take two punches to the head,
does not make him a hero, you know.

I would call running someone over with a car "deadly force"
and such an act would justify the use of the same level of force
to stop.

I, of course am not a lawyer, but I do have some sense of perspective.

Bernard
Matthew Russotto - 19 Sep 2005 04:29 GMT
>>> You apparently swallow the kid's lawyer's claim that he
>>>"inadvertently" cut off the 53-year-old.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>It's equally plausible that the murderous punk was the aggressor
>through this entire incident.

Except that all parties agree that the murderous old man followed the
punk home and hit him with his car.  Which sort of rules out your
scenario.
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 result in a fully-depreciated one.

Alex Rodriguez - 17 Sep 2005 04:28 GMT
>> > If you read the story, you'll find the whole incident started when the
>> > punk kid cut off the 53-year-old.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>It's mine, too. Guess it's been a leetle too long since you had close
>experience with high school footballers' behavioral defects.

True, but what the kid did does not point to him acting inappropriately.
He called his father to ask for advice.  He tried running away from the
other guy who tried to kill him.  It wasn't till he had no other option
that he got physical with the other driver.  If reports are correct, he
only hit the guy twice.  I could see someone who was just hit on purpose
with a car grabbing the driver out of the car and hitting more than twice.

>> The rest of us, especially those who either have accidentally cut off
>> somebody or think it might happen someday, are entitled to disagree.
>
>You apparently swallow the kid's lawyer's claim that he "inadvertently"
>cut off the 53-year-old.

Even if it was on purpose, following the kid home and hitting him with
his car was stupid and inapprorpiate.  He should have called the cops.
---------------
Alex
Matthew Russotto - 19 Sep 2005 04:25 GMT
>You apparently swallow the kid's lawyer's claim that he "inadvertently"
>cut off the 53-year-old.

Sure.  Even dumb jocks can be inattentive.
Signature

 There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
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Alex Rodriguez - 17 Sep 2005 04:21 GMT
>Bullshit. When the kid is standing to the SIDE of the car, he is
>completely out of danger at that point - after all, cars cannot easily
>drive sideways. Punching the driver once he was already out of harm's
>way was pure revenge.

The idiot could have thrown the car into reverse and turned the wheel all the
way to the right.  He would have then hit the kid standing besides the car.
Who knows if the kid had an opportunity to run away from the car?  Under the
circumstances I can't see how you can blame the kid for his actions.  

>Who drew first blood? If you read the story, you'll find the whole
>incident started when the punk kid cut off the 53-year-old. If you ask
>me, that murdering shitty driver kid deserved to be taken out and just
>got extremely lucky.

You've never accidentally cut off another driver?  One could say the coward
tried to kill the kid and when he failed, the kid did what he could to keep
him from trying a second time.  
--------------
Alex
Scott en Aztlán - 17 Sep 2005 06:11 GMT
>>Bullshit. When the kid is standing to the SIDE of the car, he is
>>completely out of danger at that point - after all, cars cannot easily
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>The idiot could have thrown the car into reverse and turned the wheel all the
>way to the right.  He would have then hit the kid standing besides the car.

Wow, good thing the kid punched the guy in the head, then - that
certainly would have stopped a 3000 pound automobile that was in
reverse with the wheel turned hard over... :rolleyes:
223rem - 17 Sep 2005 06:19 GMT
> Wow, good thing the kid punched the guy in the head, then - that
> certainly would have stopped a 3000 pound automobile that was in
> reverse with the wheel turned hard over... :rolleyes:

Scott, have you been bullied by jocks by any chance?
Scott en Aztlán - 17 Sep 2005 15:45 GMT
>> Wow, good thing the kid punched the guy in the head, then - that
>> certainly would have stopped a 3000 pound automobile that was in
>> reverse with the wheel turned hard over... :rolleyes:
>
>Scott, have you been bullied by jocks by any chance?

Never, but I *have* been the victim of shitty drivers.
Alexander Rogge - 17 Sep 2005 20:18 GMT
The transmission can be shifted into Neutral or Park.  The right hand
grabs the shifter, the left hand grabs the right hand of the driver,
some other stuff, pull through the window, and the driver is on the ground.
Bernard Farquart - 18 Sep 2005 01:23 GMT
> The transmission can be shifted into Neutral or Park.  The right hand
> grabs the shifter, the left hand grabs the right hand of the driver, some
> other stuff, pull through the window, and the driver is on the ground.

A police officer (trained professional) in Seattle tried that a few
years ago, driver took off, dragged cop, other cops
had to shoot driver to death. so perhaps your idea is not so easy?

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/41686_inquest06.shtml

Bernard
Alexander Rogge - 18 Sep 2005 05:46 GMT
> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/41686_inquest06.shtml

The driver is asked to turn off the car, but shifts into Park instead:
Tell the driver to step out of the vehicle; the driver is probably on drugs.

Why was he holding onto the papers, and didn't he swing back and hit the
head after moving the shifter?
Bernard Farquart - 18 Sep 2005 07:37 GMT
> Why was he holding onto the papers, and didn't he swing back and hit the
> head after moving the shifter?

What?
Scott en Aztlán - 18 Sep 2005 15:42 GMT
>> Why was he holding onto the papers, and didn't he swing back and hit the
>> head after moving the shifter?
>
>What?

See what happens when you fail to quote the text to which you're
responding, Alexander?

Nobody has any idea WTF you're talking about!
Alexander Rogge - 18 Sep 2005 18:55 GMT
>>Why was he holding onto the papers, and didn't he swing back and hit the
>>head after moving the shifter?
>
> What?

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/41686_inquest06.shtml

"The officer said he pulled his upper body into the car, trying to hang
on as he grabbed the gear selector and tried to force it into park."

"Neubert said Roberts was prying at his left hand, finally letting go of
it when the officer released the papers."

"I guess that's what we're kind of getting hung up on is the word
'dragged,'" Neubert said, trying to explain: "I'm in a stumbling motion,
trying to keep up with the vehicle as I'm moving sideways."

He wasn't dragged at high-speed.  Why didn't he grab the driver with his
other hand?  I tried it with an Escalade.  The driver grabs my left
wrist with both hands and starts rolling forward at idle and in "D".
It's easy to jump inside because the driver is pulling me.  Then it's
straight to the head, and the driver goes down.  In a sedan like a
DeVille, it's easier because the car is lower to the ground.
Bernard Farquart - 18 Sep 2005 20:31 GMT
>>>Why was he holding onto the papers, and didn't he swing back and hit the
>>>head after moving the shifter?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> "Neubert said Roberts was prying at his left hand, finally letting go of
> it when the officer released the papers."

How can I possibly know what was going through the mind of
the officer as he was getting dragged away by that car?

I remain unable to read the thoughts of others.

Perhaps it was a disconcerting experiance? If you
are being carried down the street half way out of
a car, you may have trouble collecting your thoughts?

I am merely pointing out that it is not so simple as laid out
in your earlier declaration,as follows.
>"The transmission can be shifted into Neutral or Park.  The right hand
>grabs the shifter, the left hand grabs the right hand of the driver, some
>other stuff, pull through the window, and the driver is on the ground"

See?

Bernard
Alexander Rogge - 19 Sep 2005 03:47 GMT
> How can I possibly know what was going through the mind of
> the officer as he was getting dragged away by that car?

>> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/41686_inquest06.shtml

"My only thought was, 'I don't want to die. I don't want to get run over
by this big car.'"

The training is supposed to keep cops from panicking.  Try jumping into
a sedan on a highway as an angry LLB with a bad license has the
accelerator pedal to the floor.  One person did this and got the driver
on the ground in about 15 seconds.

"Neubert said he didn't have any idea who Roberts was -- or that he had
a warrant out for his arrest. He told jurors he did suspect that the
man, because of his driving and behavior, was under the influence of
drugs or alcohol."

This driver should've been in the back of the squad car.

Cop: "You may not drive across lanes of traffic as you did.  You
almost caused a major collision.  I need to see your driver's license
and vehicle registration."
Driver: "Don't got my license... forgot it at home... maybe you can look
at this stuff... wasn't speeding..."
Cop: "Turn the car off and step out."
Driver: "I wasn't doin' nothin'!  You stopped me 'cause I'm DWB."
Cop: "Get out of the car... right now!"

You don't look away from the driver.
223rem - 19 Sep 2005 20:55 GMT
> The training is supposed to keep cops from panicking.

They're not Navy SEALS or something.

>  Try jumping into
> a sedan on a highway as an angry LLB with a bad license has the
> accelerator pedal to the floor.  One person did this and got the driver
> on the ground in about 15 seconds.

Sounds like movie stuff.
Daniel J. Stern - 18 Sep 2005 17:20 GMT
> > http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/41686_inquest06.shtml

> The driver is asked to turn off the car, but shifts into Park instead:
> Tell the driver to step out of the vehicle; the driver is probably on
> drugs. Why was he holding onto the papers, and didn't he swing back and
> hit the head after moving the shifter?

Why, because the driver was black, and the car was a Cadillac, of course!
*eyeroll*
Matthew Russotto - 19 Sep 2005 04:18 GMT
>Bullshit. When the kid is standing to the SIDE of the car, he is
>completely out of danger at that point - after all, cars cannot easily
>drive sideways.

At 53, I'll bet he knew how to parallel park.  Sure, the kid probably
could have stayed out of the way for a while by staying inside the
car's turning radius, but the car isn't likely to get tired.

>Punching the driver once he was already out of harm's
>way was pure revenge.

Even if so, that merely elevates it from justifiable homicide to
excusable.  Or do you think it's murder to respond to an assault with
a deadly weapon just because the guy who has just assaulted you isn't
actually going at you for a second time.

>>The a.shole who followed him home got what he deserved.
>
>Who drew first blood? If you read the story, you'll find the whole
>incident started when the punk kid cut off the 53-year-old.

That ain't blood.

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 There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
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Alex Rodriguez - 17 Sep 2005 04:16 GMT
>> MOUNT LAUREL, N.J. -- Enraged after being cut off by a teen driver,
>>authorities say a man then followed the high school athlete home and tried
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>So now that arrogant little punk is not only a shitty driver, he's a
>murderer too.

The kid may have been a poor driver, but it was the dipshit who followed him
home who really is mostly responsible.   He tried to kill the kid.  He wasn't
successful and the kid ended up killing him.  The adult should have acted like
one and at most reported the kid to the cops for poor driving.  When you use a
weapon, his car in this case, you should be prepared for the other person to
also use deadly force against you.  
---------------
Alex
Matthew Russotto - 19 Sep 2005 03:57 GMT
>> MOUNT LAUREL, N.J. -- Enraged after being cut off by a teen driver,
>>authorities say a man then followed the high school athlete home and tried
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>So now that arrogant little punk is not only a shitty driver, he's a
>murderer too.

He may be a shitty driver.  But no murderer; he merely defended
himself from some old geezer who thought his car made a perfect
weapon.  If it weren't for the age of the defendant, he wouldn't have
even been charged.

The authorities SHOULD dismiss the charges against him and charge the
corpse with "assault with a deadly weapon".
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 result in a fully-depreciated one.

John David Galt - 29 Sep 2005 22:57 GMT
> So now that arrogant little punk is not only a shitty driver, he's a
> murderer too.

I agree with Sir Lex.  The teen was defending his life and should be
set free.

If somebody cut me off in traffic in an especially dangerous way, I
might call the cops.  I might even try to block his car in somewhere
until they can arrive.  But hitting someone on foot with a car on
purpose is crazy, and can never be justified unless he's menacing you
with a gun or the equivalent.
Leo - 16 Sep 2005 01:22 GMT
> MOUNT LAUREL, N.J. -- Enraged after being cut off by a teen driver,
>authorities say a man then followed the high school athlete home and tried
>to run the youth down with his car. Instead, the 53-year-old was punched
>into unconsciousness and died Tuesday.
>
>http://www.wnbc.com/traffic/4970761/detail.html

jesus.. who's the 53 yo? tony soprano?
 
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