Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / February 2006
Why no rear-engine RWD cars anymore?
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223rem - 01 Feb 2006 00:51 GMT My first car (a Renault Gordini) was RWD and had the engine where the trunk of modern cars are. From an engineering standpoint, this is the simplest configuration. Is there a reason for it being abandoned? (I know that Ferrari, etc still use it).
Old Wolf - 01 Feb 2006 00:53 GMT > My first car (a Renault Gordini) was RWD and had the engine where the trunk of modern > cars are. From an engineering standpoint, this is the simplest configuration. > Is there a reason for it being abandoned? (I know that Ferrari, etc still use it). Toyota MR2 and MR-S are like this. I've heard that they don't handle particulary well (not enough weight at the front of the car).
Brent P - 01 Feb 2006 01:33 GMT > Toyota MR2 and MR-S are like this. I've heard that they don't handle > particulary well (not enough weight at the front of the car). RWD, Rear engine handles differently from front engine RWD and front engine FWD. That's all.
Of course US manufacturers have beed detered from trying new things because if it doesn't work properly someone is there with a lawsuit and book. ( Corvair )
Alan Baker - 01 Feb 2006 01:47 GMT > > Toyota MR2 and MR-S are like this. I've heard that they don't handle > > particulary well (not enough weight at the front of the car). [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Yes, but the Corvair failed to work properly in a manner that was already well understood by automotive engineers.
 Signature Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia "If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
Pooh Bear - 01 Feb 2006 01:42 GMT > > My first car (a Renault Gordini) was RWD and had the engine where the trunk of modern > > cars are. From an engineering standpoint, this is the simplest configuration. > > Is there a reason for it being abandoned? (I know that Ferrari, etc still use it). > > Toyota MR2 and MR-S are like this. I've heard that they don't handle > particulary well (not enough weight at the front of the car). They're 'mid-engined'.
Graham
Alan Baker - 01 Feb 2006 01:49 GMT > > > My first car (a Renault Gordini) was RWD and had the engine where the > > > trunk of modern [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Graham And handle very well.
 Signature Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia "If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
Pooh Bear - 01 Feb 2006 01:55 GMT > > > > My first car (a Renault Gordini) was RWD and had the engine where the > > > > trunk of modern [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > And handle very well. Yes, I should have added that.
Today's archetypal hot sports car is often mid-engined. It helps weight distribution.
Graham
Alan Baker - 01 Feb 2006 02:16 GMT > > > > > My first car (a Renault Gordini) was RWD and had the engine where the > > > > > trunk of modern [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Graham It helps more than that -- at least more than the purely "it's better to have the weight distributed evenly on both axles" sense of the term.
One of the big advantages of mid-engined design is lowered moment of inertia. For a sports car to corner at its maximum, the car must be yawed until the rear wheels achieve their maximum slip angle. The longer it takes to yaw the car, the less time the car will spend at maximum cornering effort. By placing the heaviest components of the car (the driver and the engine) as close to the vertical axis as possible, the car's moment of inertia in the yaw axis will be minimized.
 Signature Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia "If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
Alan Baker - 01 Feb 2006 01:46 GMT > > My first car (a Renault Gordini) was RWD and had the engine where the trunk > > of modern [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Toyota MR2 and MR-S are like this. I've heard that they don't handle > particulary well (not enough weight at the front of the car). Ummmm...
You've heard wrong.
 Signature Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia "If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
Jim Yanik - 01 Feb 2006 03:13 GMT >> > My first car (a Renault Gordini) was RWD and had the engine where >> > the trunk of modern [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > You've heard wrong. MR-2 is a MID-engined car-the motor is ahead of the rear axle.
 Signature Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net
Alan Baker - 01 Feb 2006 08:36 GMT > >> > My first car (a Renault Gordini) was RWD and had the engine where > >> > the trunk of modern [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > MR-2 is a MID-engined car-the motor is ahead of the rear axle. Which has precisely what to do with refuting the ridiculous statement that they don't handle well?
 Signature Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia "If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
Pooh Bear - 01 Feb 2006 08:53 GMT > > >> > My first car (a Renault Gordini) was RWD and had the engine where > > >> > the trunk of modern [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Which has precisely what to do with refuting the ridiculous statement > that they don't handle well? The poster who said they don't handle well was simply mistaken/wrong.
Graham
Jim Yanik - 01 Feb 2006 18:02 GMT Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote in news:alangbaker- A3BFAF.00362201022006@news.telus.net:
>> >> > My first car (a Renault Gordini) was RWD and had the engine where >> >> > the trunk of modern [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Which has precisely what to do with refuting the ridiculous statement > that they don't handle well? The title of the thread is *REAR-ENGINED* RWD;MR-2 does not fit that. A Corvair does. Whether the MR-2 handles well or not is immaterial to the thread.
Personally,I think MR-2s handle great.
 Signature Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net
Alan Baker - 02 Feb 2006 04:58 GMT > Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote in news:alangbaker- > A3BFAF.00362201022006@news.telus.net: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > A Corvair does. > Whether the MR-2 handles well or not is immaterial to the thread. All of which might have made for a good response to the person who wrote the post to which I *replied*, but...
> Personally,I think MR-2s handle great.
 Signature Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia "If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
Pooh Bear - 01 Feb 2006 01:28 GMT > My first car (a Renault Gordini) was RWD and had the engine where the trunk of modern > cars are. From an engineering standpoint, this is the simplest configuration. > Is there a reason for it being abandoned? (I know that Ferrari, etc still use it). Poor weight distribution leads to lousy handling.
A Ferrari is actually 'mid-engined'.
Graham
Alan Baker - 01 Feb 2006 01:48 GMT > > My first car (a Renault Gordini) was RWD and had the engine where the trunk > > of modern [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Poor weight distribution leads to lousy handling. Weight distribution problems can largely be overcome -- provided they're not too severe. Witness the Porsche 911/Carrera/whatever they call it this week.
;-)
> A Ferrari is actually 'mid-engined'. > > Graham
 Signature Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia "If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
Pooh Bear - 01 Feb 2006 01:55 GMT > > > My first car (a Renault Gordini) was RWD and had the engine where the trunk > > > of modern [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > ;-) Early 911s claimed a lot of lives though.
Graham
Alan Baker - 01 Feb 2006 02:16 GMT > > > > My first car (a Renault Gordini) was RWD and had the engine where the > > > > trunk [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Graham True. Trailing throttle oversteer with a vengeance...
 Signature Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia "If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
Jim Yanik - 01 Feb 2006 03:15 GMT >> > My first car (a Renault Gordini) was RWD and had the engine where >> > the trunk of modern [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> >> Graham For a long time,Porsche 911's had a reputation for spinning out when one lifted off the throttle in a turn.Only the last couple of models eliminated that tendency.
 Signature Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net
Alan Baker - 01 Feb 2006 01:46 GMT > My first car (a Renault Gordini) was RWD and had the engine where the trunk > of modern > cars are. From an engineering standpoint, this is the simplest configuration. > Is there a reason for it being abandoned? (I know that Ferrari, etc still use > it). The biggest reason is packaging.
You could build a rear-engined car with perfect handling (and no, Ferrari is not doing that; the cars you are think of are *mid*-engined) but when you put the engine behind the passengers, you use the best area for storage.
Because of the aerodynamic and visual realities of automotive design, you can build a higher and bigger trunk behind the rear window than you could reasonable put in front of the front window. When you considerthe room necessary to let the front wheels steer, it leaves you having to make the front of the car even taller if you want to get the same storage volume as you'd get in the rear.
Most engines -- even horizontally opposed arrangements -- are small and low enough to fit in the space available between the front wheels and below fender height; leaving the entire space between/above the rear wheels/axle for storage. This can be maximized even more by making the vehicle FWD. Then you don't need the space for a drive shaft, differential, and driving axles.
Yes, you can make more space by making the vehicle bigger overall, but then it's going to weigh more, have more drag and cost more both to buy and to operate; all things that people have been avoiding more and more.
 Signature Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia "If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
John S. - 01 Feb 2006 02:25 GMT > My first car (a Renault Gordini) was RWD and had the engine where the trunk of modern > cars are. From an engineering standpoint, this is the simplest configuration. > Is there a reason for it being abandoned? (I know that Ferrari, etc still use it). Can't tell you if it costs less to produce or not - I've heard stories both ways. The configuration is much more forgiving when it comes to slides and provides better traction in sloppy conditions. The lack of a transmission allows all of that stuff we love to be crammed into the same space.
There are some rwd cars still available, but not as many as before. I learned to drive when a few exotic cars like the Saab, DKW, Citroen had
front wheel drive and all others had rear drive. Now the opposite is true and to be honest I don't miss rwd any more than I miss unassisted brakes and steering and non-airconditioned cars.
Ad absurdum per aspera - 01 Feb 2006 16:56 GMT Rear engine was always considered an odd layout for passenger cars. A couple of them were pretty successful (though you might argue that the VW Beetle and the first few generations of Porsche were, in a broad sense, of the same design pattern) but here are my guesses at some reasons why it never took over the mainstream.
A flawed first generation of the "unsafe at any speed" Chevy Corvair probably had a lot to do with its lack of widespread adoption. (Remember, it was supposed to be a mass market vehicle, whereas Porsche's target market of sports-car connoisseurs was presumably able to deal with, or even use to advantage, certain handling quirks.) If memory serves, the first generation of Beetles had a bit of a tendency to spin too, and were tamed with some suspension improvements and a longer wheelbase.
There is also the problem of how to cool a rear engine (mid engines are even worse, but if you've already sacrificed the back seat in the name of sportitude, what's a few more louvre vents and hoses and so forth?). Really successful rear-engine cars, as far as I can figure out, all had boxer or at least low-rising engines and were usually air-cooled.
And then there's the trunk. People can and do put the trunk in front, but that limits both its size (unless you are willing to accept dreadful aerodynamics) and the ability to put extra stuff in there and drive around with the lid up. Remember, the front wheels have to have room to swivel as well as to go up and down.
In a big vehicle, you have to run the control cables and linkages allll the way back there without sacrificing acceptable feel and reliability -- a more or less solvable problem but not the obvious way to go.
Although I'm not sure when it kicked-in as a design priority, having the engine (and, lately, transaxle) up front, as well as the cooling system and so forth, doubtless makes it easier to absorb energy in a frontal collision.
A rear engine or "pusher" configuration is the premium setup for buses and large RV's and has been for a long time, for instance, but they can have the "trunk" slung underneath. Of course, buses and RV's are not usually flogged around hard enough for people to care about polar moment and trailing-throttle oversteer.
Why it is generally not employed for delivery trucks, I dunno. Probably because rear access to a standard loading dock, engine and transmission accessibility, and cooling system location amount to one thing too many.
John S. - 01 Feb 2006 17:19 GMT > My first car (a Renault Gordini) was RWD and had the engine where the trunk of modern > cars are. From an engineering standpoint, this is the simplest configuration. > Is there a reason for it being abandoned? (I know that Ferrari, etc still use it). I missed the rear-engine part of your question. A rear-engine rear-wheel drive combination is possibly the worst configuration for most drivers. As a group such cars have potentially dangerous steering characteristics in the hands of the average driver and the cars tend to be very sensitive to wide-winds. Take the engine/transmission combination and move it to the front and you have a much better chance of creating a car with superior traction, steering and tracking characteristics.
The old Renault, Fiat and VW cars were not designed for the highway travel they were often subjected to and their handling characteristics could be downright scary. The later VW Variant and yes the Corvair were better handling cars, but they too suffered from having too much weight in the wrong end of the car.
Thank goodness we have for the most part gotten away from rear wheel and engine cars.
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