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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / February 2006Bush defends Exxon profits, says consumers shouldn't expect price breaks
Bush Says Don't Expect Oil Price Breaks By TERENCE HUNT, AP White House Correspondent President Bush defended the huge profits of Exxon Mobil Corp. Wednesday, saying they are simply the result of the marketplace and that consumers socked with soaring energy costs should not expect price breaks... Bush, a former Texas oilman, said of oil costs, "I think that basically the price is determined by the marketplace and that's the way it should be." Early this week, Exxon reported record profits of $10.71 billion for the fourth quarter and $36.13 billion for the year - the largest of any U.S. company. While some politicians raised furious objections, Bush had a different reaction. "There is a marketplace in American society," he said... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060201/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_interview >Bush Says Don't Expect Oil Price Breaks >By TERENCE HUNT, AP White House Correspondent >Bush, a former Texas oilman, said of oil costs, "I think that >basically the price is determined by the marketplace and that's the >way it should be." You can always tell a liberal by how they twist anything a conservative says. If gore or clinton had said this, as they have in the past, you would have been contrite (look it up) to keep your mouth shut. ************************* Dave > You can always tell a liberal by how they twist anything a > conservative says. If gore or clinton had said this, as they have in > the past, you would have been contrite (look it up) to keep your mouth > shut. I am generally in favor of the market deciding prices. Oil, natural gas, and gasoline are a slightly different matter. We can't just stop heating our homes, cooking our food (those of us that cook with gas, anyhow) or driving, just because we know the energy providers are jacking the prices up. Doesn't work too well. :> **SJS (and, btw, I'm a liberal, thankyouverymuch. I do still believe in the basic concepts of supply and demand.)  SignatureSteve Sobol, Professional Geek 888-480-4638 PGP: 0xE3AE35ED Company website: http://JustThe.net/ Personal blog, resume, portfolio: http://SteveSobol.com/ E: sjsobol@JustThe.net Snail: 22674 Motnocab Road, Apple Valley, CA 92307 > Oil, natural gas, and gasoline are a slightly different matter. We can't > just stop heating our homes, cooking our food (those of us that cook with > gas, anyhow) or driving, just because we know the energy providers are > jacking the prices up. Doesn't work too well. :> The bigger problem is that these things don't follow a normal market in so many ways. The production is so regulated that new players cannot come in to undercut exisiting players. The prices are set by irrational brokers in the pits or some such as well. And of course what you mention on the demand side. A normal market would have those making gasoline charging X for it, if X was high then another company would come in and sell it for a lower price of Y, deciding they could make a profit that way. That's normal capitialism and it just doesn't happen in this realm any longer. > > Oil, natural gas, and gasoline are a slightly different matter. We can't > > just stop heating our homes, cooking our food (those of us that cook with [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > so many ways. The production is so regulated that new players cannot come > in to undercut exisiting players. Let's throw away all environmental protections so you can have cheaper gasoline. The people in Cancer Alley will be thrilled. >The prices are set by irrational > brokers Are you sure that they are irrational? Maybe they are lunatics. > in the pits or some such as well. And of course what you mention > on the demand side. IOW, you don't want to respond to market pressure, so you demand government interference to shield you. > A normal market would have those making gasoline charging X for it, if X > was high then another company would come in and sell it for a lower price > of Y, deciding they could make a profit that way. And a normal market contains plenty of malcontented buyers who believe that the market is rigged. > That's normal > capitialism and it just doesn't happen in this realm any longer. What do you suggest? more government interference? >> > Oil, natural gas, and gasoline are a slightly different matter. We can't >> > just stop heating our homes, cooking our food (those of us that cook with [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Let's throw away all environmental protections so you can have cheaper >gasoline. The people in Cancer Alley will be thrilled. Let me guess, you are one of those environmental terrorists. ************************* Dave >>>>Oil, natural gas, and gasoline are a slightly different matter. We can't >>>>just stop heating our homes, cooking our food (those of us that cook with [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > ************************* > Dave Nah, I don't think most people really understand just how f'ed up the gasoline market is. Used to be it was blended solely with regard to ambient temperature, everywhere in the USA... ain't like that any more. There's dozens of different formulae... nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel > Nah, I don't think most people really understand just how f'ed up the > gasoline market is. Used to be it was blended solely with regard to > ambient temperature, everywhere in the USA... ain't like that any more. > There's dozens of different formulae... The even bigger problem is say you are small player in gasoline business. Because of the high prices etc you identify a great location for refinery and have a reasonable idea that prices will stay high enough for you to build there and undercut the big boys and make some money. So you start the ball rolling and find out it's going to take a decade of political work before you can break ground. In practically any business, this means it's time to pull the plug on the project, even if it gets done there is no way to be sure in a decade plus if gasoline is even being used in today's volumes let alone if it will be a profitable product. >>> > Oil, natural gas, and gasoline are a slightly different matter. We can't >>> > just stop heating our homes, cooking our food (those of us that cook with [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Let me guess, you are one of those environmental terrorists. No, for the very reason he is in my kill file, he's just a troll. There is sensible environmental regulations and then there are crushing, confusing environmental regulations coupled by incredible amount of NIBMY. The result is a limited production where smaller producers can be bought out and shut down by larger producers and then those larger producers can charge more because well, they're the only game in town. Message from Brent P written on 2/3/2006 9:07 PM: >>>>> Oil, natural gas, and gasoline are a slightly different matter. We can't >>>>> just stop heating our homes, cooking our food (those of us that cook with [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > bought out and shut down by larger producers and then those larger > producers can charge more because well, they're the only game in town. It may be worth reading up on how commodity markets work. > It may be worth reading up on how commodity markets work. I know how they work and it doesn't change my point one bit. If there isn't enough corn grown what happens to the price? It goes up. Farmers plant more corn to profit and it comes back down. What happens when there isn't enough gasoline made to go around? Price goes up. But oops, thanks to the fact it would take a decade to the ground braking, nobody can build a new refinery to profit on the high prices, increase supply, and bring prices back down. Understand now? > > You can always tell a liberal by how they twist anything a > > conservative says. If gore or clinton had said this, as they have in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Oil, natural gas, and gasoline are a slightly different matter. We can't > just stop heating our homes, Sure you can. You can also lower the thermostat, wear a sweater, and use more insulation. > cooking our food (those of us that cook with > gas, anyhow) Sure you can. Fresh fruit and vegetables are good for you and do not need to be cooked. You can eat less cooked foods. > or driving, Sure you can. You can car pool, use public transportation, walk, and ride your bicycle. You can reduce trips. > just because we know the energy providers are > jacking the prices up. Doesn't work too well. :> Doesn't work or you just don't want to? > **SJS (and, btw, I'm a liberal, thankyouverymuch. I do still believe in the > basic concepts of supply and demand.) Except, it seems, when it applies to a commodity you want. > -- > Steve Sobol, Professional Geek 888-480-4638 PGP: 0xE3AE35ED > Company website: http://JustThe.net/ > Personal blog, resume, portfolio: http://SteveSobol.com/ > E: sjsobol@JustThe.net Snail: 22674 Motnocab Road, Apple Valley, CA 92307 For all the cracks about Jimmy Carter in a cardigan and his malaise speech, America DID reduce its use of oil following the price shocks of the 1970s, and this laid the groundwork for low energy prices in the 1980s and 1990s. But, to do this in 2006 would require spending political capital (and offending traditional White House allies) -- and THAT is something this president doesn't seem to want to do. > But, to do this in 2006 would require spending political capital (and > offending traditional White House allies) -- and THAT is something this > president doesn't seem to want to do. ...due to his ties to the industry? SignatureSteve Sobol, Professional Geek 888-480-4638 PGP: 0xE3AE35ED Company website: http://JustThe.net/ Personal blog, resume, portfolio: http://SteveSobol.com/ E: sjsobol@JustThe.net Snail: 22674 Motnocab Road, Apple Valley, CA 92307 >Bush, a former Texas oilman, said of oil costs, "I think that >basically the price is determined by the marketplace and that's the >way it should be." >> You can always tell a liberal by how they twist anything a >> conservative says. If gore or clinton had said this, as they have in >> the past, you would have been contrite (look it up) to keep your mouth >> shut. >I am generally in favor of the market deciding prices. As you should be. >Oil, natural gas, and gasoline are a slightly different matter. We can't >just stop heating our homes, cooking our food (those of us that cook with >gas, anyhow) or driving, just because we know the energy providers are >jacking the prices up. Doesn't work too well. :> Agreed. However, that is not the issue. The issue in gasoline is a lack of refining capacity. Then the station owners, most of whom are not part of Exxon, et al, decide to rape everybody by jacking up the price as high as they want. Setting a maximum price from the oil refiner will just result in no supply, and won't have any effect at all on the rapists that were charging $8 a gallon. Now natural gas is another issue. I don't know that much about how things work there, but I do feel pricing is unfair. However, without evidence that pricing is unfair, I have no advice. If I did have evidence, my suggestion would be to use EXISTING anti trust laws, not to write new ones. >**SJS (and, btw, I'm a liberal, thankyouverymuch. I do still believe in the >basic concepts of supply and demand.) Ooops, I forgot the word idiot. Liberals are generally nice people, it is the idiot ones I dislike. ************************* Dave > The issue in gasoline is a > lack of refining capacity. Then the station owners, most of whom are > not part of Exxon, et al, decide to rape everybody by jacking up the > price as high as they want. Cite for this please? Thanks. John SignatureVon Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. --Beethoven Message from The Man Behind The Curtain written on 2/4/2006 3:04 PM: >> The issue in gasoline is a >> lack of refining capacity. Then the station owners, most of whom are [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > John Actually some if that did occur in Georgia. Some stations there had $4.00-$5.00 per gallon posted. Some were over $5.00. When asked why, their response was that they only had a day or two supply of gas left in their tanks and was told by their supplier none would be coming until the following week. So that was the way for them to make what they had left last all week and to keep open and their people working. The alternative would be to run out and close down for 5-6 days. > Message from The Man Behind The Curtain written on 2/4/2006 3:04 PM: >>> The issue in gasoline is a [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > left last all week and to keep open and their people working. The > alternative would be to run out and close down for 5-6 days. That's not a cite that defends his point. I know there have been some isolated price gouges, especially in the wake of Katrina. DTJ said, however, "Then the station owners, most of whom are not part of Exxon, et al, decide to rape everybody by jacking up the price as high as they want." His was an inclusive remark and he was implying all the high-flying profits were going to the station owners and not the big oil companies. Well, whose cash flow would you rather call your own, XOM's or Al's Tire and Gas on 3rd St? John SignatureVon Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. --Beethoven Message from The Man Behind The Curtain written on 2/4/2006 10:45 PM: >> Message from The Man Behind The Curtain written on 2/4/2006 3:04 PM: >>>> The issue in gasoline is a [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > John They have the same problem though. Consumption moderates somewhat with increasing prices. Since that is the only control the oil companies have, there was a choice to make. Keep prices low and maintain current consumption above available supply (which means spot shortages and gas lines in some areas). Or, increase prices so that consumption was reduced to be closer in line with supply (which means higher cost, but fuel was available). Pick your poison. For me, I'd rather pay more and have the fuel available. Did they go overboard? Perhaps. But none of us know for sure. > I know there have been some isolated price gouges, especially in the > wake of Katrina. DTJ said, however, "Then the station owners, most of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > owners and not the big oil companies. Well, whose cash flow would you > rather call your own, XOM's or Al's Tire and Gas on 3rd St? I worked at the Mayfield Heights, Ohio company-owned BP station (now a BP Connect convenience store) for two years, and at a couple other Cleveland-area stores for another six months. The oil barons are definitely greedy SOB's. The station in MH where I worked is one BP took from a dealer, who also owned another station about 1/2 mile west on Mayfield Road - but the one they now have is at Mayfield (US 322) and Ohio 91, a huge 19-pump store with tons of traffic. There's also been some press about Shell screwing another longtime local oil/gas dealer - they all do it. But some of the dealers are pretty damned greedy too. I like to think that most of them aren't, but... every group has its slimeballs. SignatureSteve Sobol, Professional Geek 888-480-4638 PGP: 0xE3AE35ED Company website: http://JustThe.net/ Personal blog, resume, portfolio: http://SteveSobol.com/ E: sjsobol@JustThe.net Snail: 22674 Motnocab Road, Apple Valley, CA 92307 >> The issue in gasoline is a >> lack of refining capacity. Then the station owners, most of whom are >> not part of Exxon, et al, decide to rape everybody by jacking up the >> price as high as they want. > >Cite for this please? Don't read much I assume. Well, what about the station owners who were charged with raping people when they jacked their prices up to $8 a gallon. Now, as far as finding the hundreds of news articles about this, may I suggest you learn how to Google. ************************* Dave > >Bush, a former Texas oilman, said of oil costs, "I think that > >basically the price is determined by the marketplace and that's the [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > not part of Exxon, et al, decide to rape everybody by jacking up the > price as high as they want. I thought you were in favor of the market deciding prices. If the station owner can find sufficient buyers, why shouldn't he/she "jack" the price up? > Setting a maximum price from the oil > refiner will just result in no supply, and won't have any effect at > all on the rapists that were charging $8 a gallon. Can you provide a reference to a single incident where a station owner charged $8.00 per gallon? > Now natural gas is another issue. I don't know that much about how > things work there, but I do feel pricing is unfair. However, without [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > ************************* > Dave >Can you provide a reference to a single incident where a station owner >charged $8.00 per gallon? Well let me think, I live in Illinois, and I heard many radio reports about this. None of the stations in question were in Illinois. Thus I have to conclude that since local and regional stations here had the stories, that you should be able to find news articles about this if you try. ************************* Dave > >Can you provide a reference to a single incident where a station owner > >charged $8.00 per gallon? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > stories, that you should be able to find news articles about this if > you try. I googled "gas + price gouging" and the closest I was able to find was http://www.southernillinoisan.com/articles/2006/01/17/top/10003541.txt Illinois alleges price gouging by gas station owner Payne. His prices rose from $2.59 to $2.99 to $3.59. Payne alleges that the price increase reflects increases in his costs. In a market economy, prices frequently seem unfair to buyers. But whenever anyone has something to sell, they try to get as much for it as possible, whether it is their labor, a used car, a house or items on a garage sale. That is human nature. So why shouldn't a station owner charge $8.00 per gallon if the supply/demand curve would support it? > ************************* > Dave >Bush, a former Texas oilman, said of oil costs, "I think that >basically the price is determined by the marketplace and that's the >way it should be." >> You can always tell a liberal by how they twist anything a >> conservative says. If gore or clinton had said this, as they have in >> the past, you would have been contrite (look it up) to keep your mouth >> shut. > >I am generally in favor of the market deciding prices. Oh, and the other thing - my response was not suggesting that Bush was correct or incorrect, it was suggesting that the a.shole who posted this twisted what Bush said. Look at the subject line - Bush defends Exxon profits". Now tell me where his statement replaced by me above actually says that. No need to answer, that was rhetorical. ************************* Dave |
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