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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / August 2006

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Federal Appeals Court: Driving With Money is a Crime

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watrfga@yahoo.com - 21 Aug 2006 20:40 GMT
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/12/1296.asp

Federal Appeals Court: Driving With Money is a Crime

Eighth Circuit Appeals Court ruling says police may seize cash from
motorists even in the absence of any evidence that a crime has been
committed.

A federal appeals court ruled yesterday that if a motorist is carrying
large sums of money, it is automatically subject to confiscation. In
the case entitled, "United States of America v. $124,700 in U.S.
Currency," the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit took that
amount of cash away from Emiliano Gomez Gonzolez, a man with a "lack of
significant criminal history" neither accused nor convicted of any
crime.

On May 28, 2003, a Nebraska state trooper signaled Gonzolez to pull
over his rented Ford Taurus on Interstate 80. The trooper intended to
issue a speeding ticket, but noticed the Gonzolez's name was not on the
rental contract. The trooper then proceeded to question Gonzolez -- who
did not speak English well -- and search the car. The trooper found a
cooler containing $124,700 in cash, which he confiscated. A trained
drug sniffing dog barked at the rental car and the cash. For the
police, this was all the evidence needed to establish a drug crime that
allows the force to keep the seized money.

Associates of Gonzolez testified in court that they had pooled their
life savings to purchase a refrigerated truck to start a produce
business. Gonzolez flew on a one-way ticket to Chicago to buy a truck,
but it had sold by the time he had arrived. Without a credit card of
his own, he had a third-party rent one for him. Gonzolez hid the money
in a cooler to keep it from being noticed and stolen. He was scared
when the troopers began questioning him about it. There was no evidence
disputing Gonzolez's story.

Yesterday the Eighth Circuit summarily dismissed Gonzolez's story. It
overturned a lower court ruling that had found no evidence of drug
activity, stating, "We respectfully disagree and reach a different
conclusion... Possession of a large sum of cash is 'strong evidence' of
a connection to drug activity."

Judge Donald Lay found the majority's reasoning faulty and issued a
strong dissent.

"Notwithstanding the fact that claimants seemingly suspicious
activities were reasoned away with plausible, and thus presumptively
trustworthy, explanations which the government failed to contradict or
rebut, I note that no drugs, drug paraphernalia, or drug records were
recovered in connection with the seized money," Judge Lay wrote. "There
is no evidence claimants were ever convicted of any drug-related crime,
nor is there any indication the manner in which the currency was
bundled was indicative of drug use or distribution."

"Finally, the mere fact that the canine alerted officers to the
presence of drug residue in a rental car, no doubt driven by dozens,
perhaps scores, of patrons during the course of a given year, coupled
with the fact that the alert came from the same location where the
currency was discovered, does little to connect the money to a
controlled substance offense," Judge Lay Concluded.

The full text of the ruling is available in a 36k PDF file at the
source link below.

Source:  US v. $124,700 (US Court of Appeals, Eighth Circuit,
8/19/2006)
http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/2006/moneyseize.pdf
Mike T. - 21 Aug 2006 21:10 GMT
> http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/12/1296.asp
>
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
> 8/19/2006)
> http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/2006/moneyseize.pdf

Next logical step is that anyone stopped for minor 'traffic' infractions
will have their bank accounts checked, and all bank accounts with a high
balance will be seized.  -Dave
morticide - 21 Aug 2006 21:15 GMT
> > http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/12/1296.asp
> >
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
> will have their bank accounts checked, and all bank accounts with a high
> balance will be seized.  -Dave

Sounds like the standard procedure for over-powering governments...do
anything possible to ensure that ONLY the government has money.  First
taxes, then traffic citations, now cash seizures.  Given that trend, I
project (not a real prediction, since trends occasionally change) that
in 10 to 20 years, the only people NOT rummaging through trash in an
attempt to survive will be government officials.  Even that will
require government permit written in Arabic (can't leave out that oil
factor).
EDM - 21 Aug 2006 21:24 GMT
> http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/12/1296.asp
> Yesterday the Eighth Circuit summarily dismissed Gonzolez's story. It
> overturned a lower court ruling that had found no evidence of drug
> activity, stating, "We respectfully disagree and reach a different
> conclusion... Possession of a large sum of cash is 'strong evidence' of
> a connection to drug activity."

Wait and see what the Ninth Circuit says.  That last claim is
absurd even at face value.
Nebuchadnezzar II - 22 Aug 2006 07:47 GMT
>> http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/12/1296.asp
>> Yesterday the Eighth Circuit summarily dismissed Gonzolez's story. It
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Wait and see what the Ninth Circuit says.  That last claim is
> absurd even at face value.

This has been going on for some time.  Sums as low as a few thousand are
subject to seizure.  I remember a story about a businessman who got $10K
seized at the airport.  No arrest was made, no charges were ever filed.
The guy ran a plant nursery and was on a trip to buy from a distributor.
He didn't trust banks and always dealt in cash.  He eventually got his
money back, thanks to the ACLU.  Local law enforcement agencies get to
keep what they seize.  It's a clear violation of the 4th Amendment, but
it just goes to show what happens when people volunteer to give up their
rights.
arachnid - 22 Aug 2006 16:10 GMT
> This has been going on for some time.  Sums as low as a few thousand are
> subject to seizure.  <snip>

If you're going to travel with more than a thousand dollars cash, it's a
good idea to carry withdrawal slips or other proof that you came by the
money legally.
Bert Hyman - 22 Aug 2006 16:13 GMT
>> This has been going on for some time.  Sums as low as a few
>> thousand are subject to seizure.  <snip>
>
> If you're going to travel with more than a thousand dollars cash,
> it's a good idea to carry withdrawal slips or other proof that you
> came by the money legally.

What kind of proof could that possibly be as to the ultimate source
of the money?

Heck, the fact that you put the money in a bank and later took it out
would probably be taken as evidence of attempted money laundering.

Signature

Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | bert@iphouse.com

arachnid - 22 Aug 2006 16:57 GMT
>>> This has been going on for some time.  Sums as low as a few
>>> thousand are subject to seizure.  <snip>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> What kind of proof could that possibly be as to the ultimate source
> of the money?

The same question could be asked of money sitting in your bank account.

> Heck, the fact that you put the money in a bank and later took it out
> would probably be taken as evidence of attempted money laundering.

If you're putting too much in and taking it right out again, and doing
that often, you can be sure a computer somewhere will take note.
AllEmailDeletedImmediately - 28 Aug 2006 01:15 GMT
>>>> This has been going on for some time.  Sums as low as a few
>>>> thousand are subject to seizure.  <snip>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> If you're putting too much in and taking it right out again, and doing
> that often, you can be sure a computer somewhere will take note.

i think the limit is 3k.  after that, the bank must report you, and it'll be
done
without your knowledge.
John J - 28 Aug 2006 01:23 GMT
>>>>> This has been going on for some time.  Sums as low as a few
>>>>> thousand are subject to seizure.  <snip>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> be done
> without your knowledge.

IIRC its $10K, though some by policy will report on less.
DTJ - 28 Aug 2006 04:10 GMT
>>> If you're putting too much in and taking it right out again, and doing
>>> that often, you can be sure a computer somewhere will take note.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>IIRC its $10K, though some by policy will report on less.

Used to be $10k, 5K after 9/11.  And it is for ANY TRANSACTION, not
multiple deposits and withdrawals.
AllEmailDeletedImmediately - 28 Aug 2006 04:19 GMT
>>>> If you're putting too much in and taking it right out again, and doing
>>>> that often, you can be sure a computer somewhere will take note.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Used to be $10k, 5K after 9/11.  And it is for ANY TRANSACTION, not
> multiple deposits and withdrawals.

that would include "structuring", the crime of making several smaller cash
withdrawals (and maybe deposits?) over a period of time.   amt and timeframe
to be determined by your bank.   and consider 3k (not 5k) the total combined
limit,
just to be safe (but maybe not).
Joshua Putnam - 28 Aug 2006 06:15 GMT
> Used to be $10k, 5K after 9/11.  And it is for ANY TRANSACTION, not
> multiple deposits and withdrawals.

We also have to report multiple cash transactions under the threshhold
that appear to be an attempt to avoid the thresshold.  

If you or your business deposit a thousand or two every day from
receipts, then that's not suspicious.  But you'll still get reported if
you make a cash deposit over the threshhold.

If someone has a payment due once every six months, and they come in
three days in a row to pay $2000 cash each day, that looks like an
attempt to avoid the threshhold.

(Note, I'm not a banker, I'm an insurance agent.  "Patriot" Act
reporting requirements are broader than pre-9/11 requirements, now
insurance companies are also watching for money laundering.)

Signature

josh@phred.org is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
Updated Infrared Photography Books List:
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/photo/irbooks.html>

Bob - 30 Aug 2006 03:36 GMT
> > Used to be $10k, 5K after 9/11.  And it is for ANY TRANSACTION, not
> > multiple deposits and withdrawals.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> reporting requirements are broader than pre-9/11 requirements, now
> insurance companies are also watching for money laundering.)

So are automobile/truck dealers and other sellers of highly liquid
items. The idea is to make it impossible to convert a large sum of cash
into something that can be turned around and sold, again for cash.

Bob
Bob - 30 Aug 2006 03:32 GMT
> >>>>> This has been going on for some time.  Sums as low as a few
> >>>>> thousand are subject to seizure.  <snip>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> IIRC its $10K, though some by policy will report on less.

Financial institutions are in a bit of a catch-22 here. When the
appropriate federal agency audits a financial institution, they always
look for un-reported "suspicious" transactions. Getting dinged for that
is a major no-no, so many institutions report anything they think might
catch an auditor's eye, regardless of what the law says. This keeps the
auditors happy, but is flooding the federal agency that investigates
these items with too much "junk", that they have issued pleas to
financial institutions to stop. But given the choice between being
dinged on an audit and having another agency complaining about "junk",
guess what option wins?

Bob
Trent - 22 Aug 2006 23:33 GMT
>> This has been going on for some time.  Sums as low as a few thousand are
>> subject to seizure.  <snip>
>
> If you're going to travel with more than a thousand dollars cash, it's a
> good idea to carry withdrawal slips or other proof that you came by the
> money legally.

It is not the responibility of a private citizen to proove he is doing
nothing wrong.

Signature

Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

EDM - 23 Aug 2006 06:02 GMT
> >> This has been going on for some time.  Sums as low as a few thousand are
> >> subject to seizure.  <snip>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> It is not the responibility of a private citizen to proove he is doing
> nothing wrong.

Keep that in mind next time you run into a sobriety checkpoint.
AllEmailDeletedImmediately - 28 Aug 2006 01:15 GMT
>>> This has been going on for some time.  Sums as low as a few thousand are
>>> subject to seizure.  <snip>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> It is not the responibility of a private citizen to proove he is doing
> nothing wrong.

you'd better wake up, and soon.
Mark-T - 23 Aug 2006 17:07 GMT
> > This has been going on for some time.  Sums as low as a few thousand are
> > subject to seizure.  <snip>
>
> If you're going to travel with more than a thousand dollars cash, it's a
> good idea to carry withdrawal slips or other proof that you came by the
> money legally.

While that is probably good practical advice, do you
find the situation defensible, in the slightest degree?
Do you deny it is another brick in the wall, another
step in the march to Stalinization?

Mark
Ken Smith - 23 Aug 2006 17:30 GMT
>>>This has been going on for some time.  Sums as low as a few thousand are
>>>subject to seizure.  <snip>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Do you deny it is another brick in the wall, another
> step in the march to Stalinization?

  I would submit that it is more like Nazification.  In a Stalinist
state, the government owns all the means of production; in a fascist
state, the corporate oligarchs own the government.

  In fascist regimes, corporate interests are exalted over individual
ones (the bankruptcy bill; the Medicare prescription drug plan), and
labor unions become ineffectual. Corporate cronyism -- raised to an art
form by Suharto of Indonesia -- is rampant (Halliburton; Bechtel; Jack
Abramoff), and the concentration of economic power is encouraged (what
antitrust law?).  Disdain is shown for human rights (Guantanamo; the
PATRIOT Act). The news media is obsequious and servile, dominated by
corporate interests (FAUX News, GE).  The military is lionized and
patriotism is emphasized (9/11), as regimes adopt a belligerent foreign
policy (invasion of Iraq).  Public officials are above the law (‘signing
statements’; governmental immunity). Elections are less-than-transparent
if not total shams (Diebold), and courts serve primarily to protect the
regime (judges writing ad hoc law in unpublished opinions).  Starting to
sound familiar?

  I feel comfortable saying that we are already there.  The ersatz war
on terror and CIA-sponsored drug trade are both being used to make the
unthinkable palatable.
Brent P - 23 Aug 2006 18:39 GMT
>> Do you deny it is another brick in the wall, another
>> step in the march to Stalinization?

>    I would submit that it is more like Nazification.  In a Stalinist
> state, the government owns all the means of production; in a fascist
> state, the corporate oligarchs own the government.

China has blurred that line. In China there is no such thing as a
conflict of interest. A CEO, government official, communist party
leader, and military general may all be the same person at the same
time. And end result is a tiny elite with almost all the money,
resources, and power and everyone else with just about nothing.
Essentially slaves.

China appears to be the model that is being worked towards for the rest
of the world.

I guess I am saying you're both right. Corporate ownership of government
is where we are mostly at after of decades of their purchased political
parties (democrats and republicans) working it in that direction, but I
don't think it's going stop there. Once that ownership is secured, and
that's all that is left, we will begin to see things move towards more
consolatidation and preventing people from establishing their own
businesses. People will become more and more like slaves. Government will
have all property rights and corporations will control government.
government officals and CEOs will be the same people. Purchased toadies
like GWB will no longer be required. Chaney types will no longer have to
pretend they don't have connections to corporations. Government and
corporations will be the same and own the means of production and
everything else. *

I think there is a term for that, kings and nobility ruling as government
and owning everything while the people have nothing... feudalism.

*How will the government get all property it wants? By defining us all as
criminals or suspected criminals with seizure laws and rulings such as
the New London decision.
Ken Smith - 23 Aug 2006 19:13 GMT
>>>Do you deny it is another brick in the wall, another
>>>step in the march to Stalinization?
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> I think there is a term for that, kings and nobility ruling as government
> and owning everything while the people have nothing... feudalism.

  I perceive that you're astute enough to see that there is one and
only one remedy for that state of affairs....

> *How will the government get all property it wants? By defining us all as
> criminals or suspected criminals with seizure laws and rulings such as
> the New London decision.
EDM - 23 Aug 2006 21:18 GMT
> > China appears to be the model that is being worked towards for the rest
> > of the world.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>    I perceive that you're astute enough to see that there is one and
> only one remedy for that state of affairs....

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are
created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with
certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life,
Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure
these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,
deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,
--That whenever any Form of Government becomes
destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to
alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government..."

The federal government outlawed that right in 1940:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=18&sec=2385

The Declaration of Independence was gutted, our
democracy effectively became an empire, and it's been
a one-way trip to totalitarianism ever since.  For nearly
170 years Americans reserved the right to revolt and
overthrow any government, including our own.  It was
the primary right which kept our government in check
and subservient to the people.
Ken Smith - 23 Aug 2006 23:47 GMT
>>>China appears to be the model that is being worked towards for the rest
>>>of the world.
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> The federal government outlawed that right in 1940:
> http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=18&sec=2385

  That statute raises some intriguing questions which, to the best of
my knowledge, have never been addressed in any court.

  I don't know how far the Smith Act goes, but it would seem to me that
 use of armed force in the defense of the Constitution and the
liberties protected therein is not only one of inclination but a sacred
duty.  If, for example, a Communist cadre were to take over our country
-- keeping the forms of the Constitution but disregarding its substance
-- would we not be obliged to take up arms against it?  Here is the
American oath of citizenship:

  "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce
  and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, poten-
  tate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been
  a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution
  and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign
  and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same;
  that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by
  the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces
  of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform
  work of national importance under civilian direction when required by'
  the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental
  reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/aboutus/history/teacher/oath.htm

  The salient passage: "I will support and defend the Constitution and
laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and
domestic."  When our public officials decide -- as they do from time to
time -- that they are *above* the law and scarcely have to even pay lip
service to it, are we not just inclined but actually obliged to take up
arms against them?

  By way of example, when a judge refuses to hear a case that he has a
duty to hear, Chief Justice Marshall called that "treason against the
Constitution."  If a ruling is repugnant to the law, the people have a
right -- and government officials, a duty -- to disobey it. And the law
also holds him criminally accountable.  For as the Supreme Court said
over a century ago (and Alabama’s judicial discipline board recently
said to its former Chief Justice Roy Moore):

  No man in this country is so high that he is above the law. No
  officer of the law may set that law at defiance with impunity.
  All the officers of the government, from the highest to the low-
  est, are creatures of the law, and are bound to obey it.

United States v. Lee, 106 U.S. 196, 220 (1882).

  Our first, last, and only loyalty is to the Constitution, as opposed
to the government.  Yet, the Smith Act *specifically* criminalizes the
advocacy of the overthrow of the government, irrespective of whether it
is properly acting within the confines of its charter.  In Federalist
#78, Alexander Hamilton explained the difference:

  There is no position which depends on clearer principles, than that
  every act of a delegated authority, contrary to the tenor of the
  commission under which it is exercised, is void. No legislative act,
  therefore, contrary to the Constitution, can be valid. To deny this,
  would be to affirm, that the deputy is greater than his principal;
  that the servant is above his master; that the representatives of
  the people are superior to the people themselves; that men acting
  by virtue of powers, may do not only what their powers do not auth-
  orize, but what they forbid.

  Obviously, you'd like to think that the system is self-correcting,
and that laws could be passed to correct the injustice.  But when we
talk of judges, we have to recognize that they are essentially beyond
the law -- the Madison v. Marbury paradox we all recall from the very
first week of Con Law.

> The Declaration of Independence was gutted, our
> democracy effectively became an empire, and it's been
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the primary right which kept our government in check
> and subservient to the people.

  I tend to agree that Dennis v. U.S. is bad law, even to the point of
being unconscionable -- having been decided during the Red Scare, which
tends to explain its deviation from sound theory.  I am mindful of what
the Governator said at the RNC last cycle:

  "When the people are accountable to the government, there is tyranny.
  When the government is accountable to the people, there is liberty."

  The argument that our only loyalty is to the Constitution, and that
in that sense, the statute is overbroad and in facial violation of the
Bill of Rights, would make for an interesting challenge.  Any thoughts
from the highbrow constitutional lawyers in the audience?
AllEmailDeletedImmediately - 28 Aug 2006 01:19 GMT
>> > China appears to be the model that is being worked towards for the rest
>> > of the world.
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> The federal government outlawed that right in 1940:
> http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=18&sec=2385

under a DEMOCRAT.
AllEmailDeletedImmediately - 28 Aug 2006 01:17 GMT
communism, fascism:  the end result is the same--control of we the people.

>>> Do you deny it is another brick in the wall, another
>>> step in the march to Stalinization?
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> criminals or suspected criminals with seizure laws and rulings such as
> the New London decision.
richard - 22 Aug 2006 18:28 GMT
> http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/12/1296.asp
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> motorists even in the absence of any evidence that a crime has been
> committed.

Bullshit. No doubt that this case will now go to the US Supreme court where
the 8th circuit will once again have their butts kicked hard.
Even though the dog barking gave probable cause to search, finding no
evidence of drugs does not give officers the right to confiscate, and retain
the cash, regardless of the amount.
With the driver having no prior history of being involved in drug related
charges, or investigations, does not give authorities the right to
confiscate personal property.
Why was the car not seized?
Even though the driver's name is not on the rental contract, to the rental
company makes no difference. Nor should it make any difference to the law.
You own a car, is your child's name on the title even though the child
drive's it?
What does "A large sum of money" mean?
Ok so the man was a fool, insane, for driving around with that amount of
cash on hand. So what? It's his right.

I know of one case where a certain person won several hundred thousand
dollars at a casino. Took the cash home with him.  Cops escorted the man to
the state line since he lived in the adjoining state.

As an american, I have the right to drive any vehicle I choose to, with any
amount of cash in it I desire.
This ruling is now going to give officers the legal right to stop YOU, and
confiscate that cash you have on hand simply because you have it and claim
it was being used in drug related activities.

Bullshit.

Get rid of these damn a.shole judges on the bench permanently.
gpsman - 22 Aug 2006 19:04 GMT
richard wrote: <partial idiocy snip>
> > http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/12/1296.asp
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Bullshit. No doubt that this case will now go to the US Supreme court where
> the 8th circuit will once again have their butts kicked hard.

You didn't read the pdf.  I think you needn't bother.

> As an american, I have the right to drive any vehicle I choose to, with any
> amount of cash in it I desire.

I bet you desire more than your eight dollars...

> Get rid of these damn a.shole judges on the bench permanently.

If you think these guys are a.sholes wait until you meet yours in court
with Just Taylor. :p)
-----

- gpsman
Brent P - 22 Aug 2006 19:57 GMT
> Bullshit. No doubt that this case will now go to the US Supreme court where
> the 8th circuit will once again have their butts kicked hard.

The same supreme court that allowed government to take our property and
give it to private corporations? Consistancy would mean they will uphold
this absurdity of taking money from people.

> As an american, I have the right to drive any vehicle I choose to, with any
> amount of cash in it I desire.

That was in the old days. The police state is growing, that has already
been lost.

> This ruling is now going to give officers the legal right to stop YOU, and
> confiscate that cash you have on hand simply because you have it and claim
> it was being used in drug related activities.

Been that way for several years, only getting worse.

> Bullshit.

Yes it is.

> Get rid of these damn a.shole judges on the bench permanently.

What about those in office who made these laws?
AllEmailDeletedImmediately - 28 Aug 2006 01:21 GMT
>> Bullshit. No doubt that this case will now go to the US Supreme court
>> where
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Been that way for several years, only getting worse.

objective is to force us into a totally trackable banking system.
Brent P - 28 Aug 2006 02:20 GMT
> objective is to force us into a totally trackable banking system.

remove the word 'banking' and that's the overall plan for life.
AllEmailDeletedImmediately - 28 Aug 2006 02:27 GMT
>> objective is to force us into a totally trackable banking system.
>
> remove the word 'banking' and that's the overall plan for life.

yep.  www.spychips.org
Matthew Russotto - 22 Aug 2006 20:16 GMT
>> http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/12/1296.asp
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Bullshit. No doubt that this case will now go to the US Supreme court
>where the 8th circuit will once again have their butts kicked hard.

More likely to the full 8th circuit, and then (when they affirm) to
a big fat "cert denied" from the Supreme Court.
Signature

 There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
 result in a fully-depreciated one.

Wordsmith - 22 Aug 2006 22:48 GMT
> > http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/12/1296.asp
> >
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> As an american, I have the right to drive any vehicle I choose to, with any
> amount of cash in it I desire.

I agree.

> This ruling is now going to give officers the legal right to stop YOU, and
> confiscate that cash you have on hand simply because you have it and claim
> it was being used in drug related activities.

Those doing the confiscating have the burden of proof: they have to
prove the money was being utilized for drug activities. If they can't,
they have no case. Period.

W : )

> Bullshit.
>
> Get rid of these damn a.shole judges on the bench permanently.
Jonathan Kamens - 22 Aug 2006 22:57 GMT
>> This ruling is now going to give officers the legal right to stop YOU, and
>> confiscate that cash you have on hand simply because you have it and claim
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>prove the money was being utilized for drug activities. If they can't,
>they have no case. Period.

Those doing the confiscating SHOULD have the burden of proof,
but unfortunately, given the laws currently on the books and
the precedents that have been established in challenges to
those laws, they currently don't.

It is now legal under many states' laws and under Federal law
for law enforcement authorities to confiscate money and
property because there is a "suspicion" that the money or
property was involved in illegal activities.  The victim of
the seizure than has to prove that there was nothing illegal
going on to get his stuff back (yes, that's right, he has to
prove a negative, which is a logical impossibility, albeit not
always a legal one), and he has to use his own money to pay
the legal costs to do it.

See http://www.fear.org/.  They situation might not be quite
as bad as they make it out to be, but it's pretty darn bad.

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EDM - 22 Aug 2006 23:05 GMT
> >> This ruling is now going to give officers the legal right to stop YOU, and
> >> confiscate that cash you have on hand simply because you have it and claim
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> See http://www.fear.org/.  They situation might not be quite
> as bad as they make it out to be, but it's pretty darn bad.

So what do you do when a majority of people in the "land
of the free" continue to elect and reelect representatives
who are converting their country into a totalitarian shithole?
Where is this going to end?  Every year the U.S. is looking
more and more like pre-war Germany.
Nate Nagel - 22 Aug 2006 23:24 GMT
>>>>This ruling is now going to give officers the legal right to stop YOU, and
>>>>confiscate that cash you have on hand simply because you have it and claim
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Where is this going to end?  Every year the U.S. is looking
> more and more like pre-war Germany.

About all that can be done at this point is to try to get the word out
to as many people as possible so that a grass roots movement to "throw
the bums out" takes hold.  This does NOT mean voting Republican when the
incumbent is a Democrat or vice versa, because with few exceptions,
one's just as bad as the other.

nate

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Kent Wills - 23 Aug 2006 00:51 GMT
I have it on good authority that on Tue, 22 Aug 2006 22:05:55 GMT,

>> >> This ruling is now going to give officers the legal right to stop YOU, and
>> >> confiscate that cash you have on hand simply because you have it and claim
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>Where is this going to end?  Every year the U.S. is looking
>more and more like pre-war Germany.

    I see A LOT of 1980's Poland in the U.S.  The only difference
is that the citizens of the U.S. are actually ASKING for it by
electing these people over and over again.

Signature

Kent
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons...
for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

Ken Smith - 23 Aug 2006 09:23 GMT
> I have it on good authority that on Tue, 22 Aug 2006 22:05:55 GMT,
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> is that the citizens of the U.S. are actually ASKING for it by
> electing these people over and over again.

  As Stalin is reputed to have said, "He who casts the votes decides
nothing; he who counts the votes decides everything."  I don't think
average Americans are really for this nonsense, but our Congressional
districts are so heavily gerrymandered that only one in ten of us have
any semblance of a voice in Congress.

  America is well down the road toward becoming a fascist totalitarian
state.  This is Oceania; the telltales are there for all to see.

  Does *anyone* seriously believe that Islamic terrorists could make a
TATP bomb on a friggin' plane?  Can't happen.  We're being manipulated
by fear, just as the Germans were before the last world war.
Brent P - 23 Aug 2006 13:37 GMT
>    Does *anyone* seriously believe that Islamic terrorists could make a
> TATP bomb on a friggin' plane?  Can't happen.  We're being manipulated
> by fear, just as the Germans were before the last world war.

Of course it's simple manipulation through fear. The last 3 big terror
busts have all turned out be a much of morons being guided by western
government operatives. Although the path is apparently more complex with
this last one, going via pakistani intelligence forces.

As to the sniping trolls that will call for cites...

"The UK Terror plot: what's really going on?"
http://www.craigmurray.co.uk/archives/2006/08/the_uk_terror_p.html

"Pakistan's double win over terror"
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/HH15Df03.html

Of course there are many more out there...
Ken Smith - 23 Aug 2006 15:30 GMT
>>   Does *anyone* seriously believe that Islamic terrorists could make a
>>TATP bomb on a friggin' plane?  Can't happen.  We're being manipulated
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Of course there are many more out there...

  The War on Terror is, of course, a complete fraud.  At bare minimum,
the Bush Administration knew more than enough to stop 9/11, and malice
often hides under a cloak of feigned incompetence.

  Welcome to Oceania, Winston.
Brent P - 23 Aug 2006 15:52 GMT
>    The War on Terror is, of course, a complete fraud.  At bare minimum,
> the Bush Administration knew more than enough to stop 9/11, and malice
> often hides under a cloak of feigned incompetence.

Stupidity is the most powerful force in the universe, however as I
pointed out in one of the property seizure threads, at some point the
trend becomes too much to just be stupidity, especially when there is
profit.

The war on terror has exceeded that threshold for me. It's not stupidity
but as you state, a cloak of feigned incompetence that has lead to record
profits, record theft, and record increases in power.  

>    Welcome to Oceania, Winston.

More or less.
AllEmailDeletedImmediately - 28 Aug 2006 01:22 GMT
> So what do you do when a majority of people in the "land
> of the free" continue to elect and reelect representatives
> who are converting their country into a totalitarian shithole?
> Where is this going to end?  Every year the U.S. is looking
> more and more like pre-war Germany.

we get the government we deserve.   too many voting the gimme-sh.ts
and not for the general good.
Wordsmith - 23 Aug 2006 05:20 GMT
> >> This ruling is now going to give officers the legal right to stop YOU, and
> >> confiscate that cash you have on hand simply because you have it and claim
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> the precedents that have been established in challenges to
> those laws, they currently don't.

Then it's worse than I thought.

> It is now legal under many states' laws and under Federal law
> for law enforcement authorities to confiscate money and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> always a legal one), and he has to use his own money to pay
> the legal costs to do it.

What do logic and legality have to do with each other? I'm glad I never
go driving around with ten thou in c notes in the glove compartment.

W : (

> See http://www.fear.org/.  They situation might not be quite
> as bad as they make it out to be, but it's pretty darn bad.
>
> --
> Help stop the genocide in Darfur!
> http://www.genocideintervention.net/
AllEmailDeletedImmediately - 28 Aug 2006 01:21 GMT
> Those doing the confiscating have the burden of proof: they have to
> prove the money was being utilized for drug activities. If they can't,
> they have no case. Period.

time to wake up.

> W : )
USA1st - 22 Aug 2006 18:51 GMT
> http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/12/1296.asp
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> police, this was all the evidence needed to establish a drug crime that
> allows the force to keep the seized money.

Easy fix...fill your gas tank and you probably will not have much of
anything left!
Mike T. - 22 Aug 2006 19:21 GMT
> Easy fix...fill your gas tank and you probably will not have much of
> anything left!

Holy sh.t, you're right.  With the cost of gas going up, pretty soon cops
will be confiscating gasoline during traffic stops if anyone is found to
have a full tank of fuel.  -Dave
morticide - 22 Aug 2006 21:22 GMT
> > Easy fix...fill your gas tank and you probably will not have much of
> > anything left!
>
> Holy sh.t, you're right.  With the cost of gas going up, pretty soon cops
> will be confiscating gasoline during traffic stops if anyone is found to
> have a full tank of fuel.  -Dave

And with the price increase on cars outpacing inflation, if a cop stops
a car, automatic confiscation: junkers for being a safety risk, and
non-junkers for financing through underground means.
AllEmailDeletedImmediately - 28 Aug 2006 01:27 GMT
>> > Easy fix...fill your gas tank and you probably will not have much of
>> > anything left!
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> a car, automatic confiscation: junkers for being a safety risk, and
> non-junkers for financing through underground means.

DONT' GIVE THEM ANY IDEAS ;)

are you aware that there was, and maybe still is, a desire by some in
congress
to tax you on the rentable value of your home?   that's right.   you're
living
there, and they want you to declare the yearly rent you COULD receive
from it as income.   it was a DEMOCRAT'S idea (probably mr-let-her-drown
kennedy).
Roedy Green - 22 Aug 2006 19:33 GMT
>Possession of a large sum of cash is 'strong evidence' of
>a connection to drug activity."

You know where this is headed, cash being  illegal.  The government
wants to know every single purchase you made, and so do American
corporations.
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See links to the Lebanon photos that Google censored at
http://mindprod.com/politics/israel.html

Brent P - 22 Aug 2006 19:59 GMT
>>Possession of a large sum of cash is 'strong evidence' of
>>a connection to drug activity."
>
> You know where this is headed, cash being  illegal.  The government
> wants to know every single purchase you made, and so do American
> corporations.

Not only that, they want to know the life cycle of the products you buy.
Broad band over power lines will allow your fridge, your DVD player, and
anything else plugged into a wall outlet to phone home and tell the
mother corporation you just watched "Mother, Juggs and Speed" for the 6th
time while drinking a 6 pack of Sam Adams and you were running out of
cheese.
EDM - 22 Aug 2006 20:21 GMT
> >Possession of a large sum of cash is 'strong evidence' of
> >a connection to drug activity."
>
> You know where this is headed, cash being  illegal.  The government
> wants to know every single purchase you made, and so do American
> corporations.

You say that as if the two are separate entities.
Number 9 - 23 Aug 2006 21:28 GMT
> >Possession of a large sum of cash is 'strong evidence' of
> >a connection to drug activity."
>
> You know where this is headed, cash being  illegal.  The government
> wants to know every single purchase you made, and so do American
> corporations.

They are quickly becoming one and the same...if they aren't already.

> --
> Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green, http://mindprod.com
> See links to the Lebanon photos that Google censored at
> http://mindprod.com/politics/israel.html
Ken Smith - 23 Aug 2006 23:59 GMT
>>>Possession of a large sum of cash is 'strong evidence' of
>>>a connection to drug activity."
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> They are quickly becoming one and the same...if they aren't already.

  The question is, what do *we* do about it?  It appears to me that
this problem is fast approaching critical mass, and I'd like to solve it
in a peaceful manner if at all possible.
Number 9 - 24 Aug 2006 22:05 GMT
> >>>Possession of a large sum of cash is 'strong evidence' of
> >>>a connection to drug activity."
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> this problem is fast approaching critical mass, and I'd like to solve it
> in a peaceful manner if at all possible.

I suppose either running for office or truly supporting those that are
running with which you agree.  I wish I had a different answer, one
that is actually believable...

You got any ideas?
Ken Smith - 25 Aug 2006 14:07 GMT
>>>>>Possession of a large sum of cash is 'strong evidence' of
>>>>>a connection to drug activity."
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> You got any ideas?

  We have to achieve critical mass.  Blogging, talking, filing lawsuits
against our corrupt judges, boycotting the drive-by media (I get most of
my news from foreign sources these days) and certain corporations -- we
have to take this battle to them.

  You understand the problem.  Educate five friends.
AllEmailDeletedImmediately - 28 Aug 2006 01:30 GMT
>>>>>>Possession of a large sum of cash is 'strong evidence' of
>>>>>>a connection to drug activity."
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
>   You understand the problem.  Educate five friends.

i've been trying for well over 10 yrs.   no one wants to know.   only hope
is a bloody revolution.
AllEmailDeletedImmediately - 28 Aug 2006 01:13 GMT
> http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/12/1296.asp
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> significant criminal history" neither accused nor convicted of any
> crime.

notice that the man wasn't charged, the money was.   that's because the
money
can mount no defense.   classic.   that tactic has been in use for hundreds
of years.

> On May 28, 2003, a Nebraska state trooper signaled Gonzolez to pull
> over his rented Ford Taurus on Interstate 80. The trooper intended to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> police, this was all the evidence needed to establish a drug crime that
> allows the force to keep the seized money.

ALL cash is drug tainted.   even cash right off the press.

> Associates of Gonzolez testified in court that they had pooled their
> life savings to purchase a refrigerated truck to start a produce
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> conclusion... Possession of a large sum of cash is 'strong evidence' of
> a connection to drug activity."

i went to pay someone's bail on a sunday.   all i could round up were ones
and
fives.   do you know the judge had the gall to inquire if it was drug money?
i had a chat with the head judge the next day.
 
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