Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / August 2006
Rear Ended on Freeway
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guerrerorunner@gmail.com - 27 Aug 2006 06:50 GMT I was driving along the freeway with the speed limit at 70 mph, and I was going about that fast. The lady in front of me slammed on her brakes HARD. It was so hard that by the time I hit her car I couldn't see it because of all the smoke from her tires. I was maintaining a safe following distance (3 seconds), but it was still not enough time for me to stop my car. The officer claimed it was my fault because I didn't give her enough room. I don't think I should have to pay for the extensive damage on my car. Any thoughts from anyone?
Brent P - 27 Aug 2006 07:40 GMT > I was driving along the freeway with the speed limit at 70 mph, and I > was going about that fast. The lady in front of me slammed on her [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > didn't give her enough room. I don't think I should have to pay for the > extensive damage on my car. Any thoughts from anyone? She could have cut you off while going 30mph slower than you, with a 1 foot gap and then slammed on the brakes and the cops would have still faulted you and insurance would still fault you.
Least that's my experience.....
Needless to say, you were directly behind her and couldn't stop so... yes it's your fault. It's pretty clear that if you did maintain distance you didn't react quickly enough or there is fault in your vehicle's breaking system. Or you drive one of those giant SUVs that's equiped with brakes I would consider insuffient on a civic.
Especially telling is the cloud of blue smoke. This means she locked them up and was sliding. In turn, that means she wasn't stopping as quickly as possible.
The only way I can see this being her fault is if she did it for no reason but to cause a collision or she hit something in front of her, which brought her to a very sudden stop.
gpsman - 27 Aug 2006 23:55 GMT Brent P wrote: <brentivy snip>
> She could have cut you off while going 30mph slower than you, with a 1 > foot gap and then slammed on the brakes and the cops would have still > faulted you and insurance would still fault you. > > Least that's my experience..... I would love to hear more about that.
> Especially telling is the cloud of blue smoke. This means she locked them > up and was sliding. In turn, that means she wasn't stopping as quickly as > possible. Really?! Have you read this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system#Effectiveness
"A Finnish car magazine, Tekniikan Maailma, tested a VW Golf V fitted with non-studded Continental ContiVikingContact 3 tires (Braking distance from 80-0 km/h)" -----
- gpsman
Nate Nagel - 28 Aug 2006 00:08 GMT > Brent P wrote: <brentivy snip> > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > - gpsman did you have a point? No, I haven't read that article before, but it agrees with common knowledge, and Brent's assertion, that a locked wheel stops slower than a rolling one being threshold or ABS braked, except for loose surfaces (which one would assume wasn't the case on a freeway, which are usually made of asphalt or concrete.) Which anyone who has any basic knowledge of driving should know. This is why, incidentally, that rear wheels locking prior to the fronts in heavy braking tends to destabilize a vehicle; because the unlocked fronts are trying harder to slow the car than the locked rears, the car acts as if it is being pushed from the front, akin to trying to balance it on its nose. It *can* be held stable, sometimes, without unlocking the rear brakes, but takes reflexes, skill, and most of all flat, straight pavement as well as a healthy dose of luck.
nate
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Brent P - 28 Aug 2006 02:35 GMT >> Brent P wrote: <brentivy snip>
>>>Especially telling is the cloud of blue smoke. This means she locked them >>>up and was sliding. In turn, that means she wasn't stopping as quickly as >>>possible.
>> Really?! Have you read this? >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system#Effectiveness >> >> "A Finnish car magazine, Tekniikan Maailma, tested a VW Golf V fitted >> with non-studded Continental ContiVikingContact 3 tires (Braking >> distance from 80-0 km/h)"
> did you have a point? No, I haven't read that article before, but it > agrees with common knowledge, and Brent's assertion, that a locked wheel > stops slower than a rolling one being threshold or ABS braked, except > for loose surfaces (which one would assume wasn't the case on a freeway, > which are usually made of asphalt or concrete.) Well, you know the sniping troll.... I forgot the 'unless on snow or gravel sometimes' disclaimer (which isn't needed since we are discussing a dry expressway) he's got to make a snipe. Sad, sad, sore loser he is.
> Which anyone who has > any basic knowledge of driving should know. This is why, incidentally, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > takes reflexes, skill, and most of all flat, straight pavement as well > as a healthy dose of luck. I've noticed that in driving video games, that the brakes tend to lock up the rears really easy sending the car into a spin... Really annoying in that every one i've ever played if I drive it as were a real car it doesn't respond correctly.
I think the programers decided to write it like it was an episode of CHiPs.
gpsman - 28 Aug 2006 04:26 GMT > I've noticed that in driving video games, that the brakes tend to lock up > the rears really easy sending the car into a spin... Really annoying in > that every one i've ever played if I drive it as were a real car it > doesn't respond correctly. How would you know...?!
Do you have any experience operating a real car at video game velocities?
IME video driving simulators recreate an incredibly realistic experience... except for the shitty AI of the other drivers. -----
- gpsman
gpsman - 28 Aug 2006 04:10 GMT > > Brent P wrote: <brentivy snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > did you have a point? No, Not with that reference, I didn't. My bad. -----
- gpsman
Alan Baker - 29 Aug 2006 23:57 GMT > > Brent P wrote: <brentivy snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > nate No. Sorry. That is incorrect. The reason that a car with locked rear brakes will become unstable is that the reduce traction of the rear tires while sliding (as compared to the fronts while still rolling) is exacerbated by the fact that the fronts also have some friction capacity left over and any small yaw then becomes magnified by the fact that the fronts running with a slight slip angle (from the yaw) produce more side force than the rears running at precisely the same slip angle.
 Signature Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia "If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
Nate Nagel - 30 Aug 2006 00:12 GMT >>>Brent P wrote: <brentivy snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > fronts running with a slight slip angle (from the yaw) produce more side > force than the rears running at precisely the same slip angle. Um... that's what I said, except you did *this.*
nate
(oh, geez, did I just quote a lame a.s commercial?)
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Brent P - 30 Aug 2006 00:14 GMT > No. Sorry. That is incorrect. The reason that a car with locked rear > brakes will become unstable is that the reduce traction of the rear [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > fronts running with a slight slip angle (from the yaw) produce more side > force than the rears running at precisely the same slip angle. The weight transfer forward is part of the reason the rears lock up first. Things become unstable because the rears are locked and the fronts aren't.
Motorhead Lawyer - 29 Aug 2006 22:57 GMT > Brent P wrote: <brentivy snip>
> > Especially telling is the cloud of blue smoke. This means she locked them > > up and was sliding. In turn, that means she wasn't stopping as quickly as [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system#Effectiveness Have *you*? Try this part:
"An alert skilled driver without ABS should be able, through the use of techniques like cadence braking or threshold braking, to match or improve on the performance of a typical driver with an ABS-equipped vehicle."
Brent's phrase "as quickly as possible" means "an alert skilled driver without ABS". This is not to say that the woman *was* as skilled as necessary for this; only that had she been, she could have been stopping more quickly than she did by sliding the tires. -- C.R. Krieger (Been there; done that)
gpsman - 29 Aug 2006 23:16 GMT Motorhead Lawyer wrote: <brevity snip>
> Brent's phrase "as quickly as possible" means "an alert skilled driver > without ABS". Thanks. My bad.
Could you hang around a little more to interpret Brent for me? -----
- gpsman
Harry K - 27 Aug 2006 14:55 GMT > I was driving along the freeway with the speed limit at 70 mph, and I > was going about that fast. The lady in front of me slammed on her [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > didn't give her enough room. I don't think I should have to pay for the > extensive damage on my car. Any thoughts from anyone? As Brent said, the only way you could fail to stop before hitting her with a 3 sec gap is mechanical failure (bad brakes), not paying attention, or very poor reflexes.
There is also the question of why you didn't try to avoid her by steering around her on one side or the other.
Harry K
Tim923 - 27 Aug 2006 16:38 GMT >As Brent said, the only way you could fail to stop before hitting her >with a 3 sec gap is mechanical failure (bad brakes), not paying >attention, or very poor reflexes. What was the driver stopping for? I think we all agree that it's dangerous to slam on the breaks to a complete stop in a 70mph zone for no good reason. It's just not expected.
Was there a squirrel in the road? A pedestrian in the road? Needed to stop to take a look at the map? Needed to stop to change lanes to make an exit in time? I wish they'd drive right PAST the exit and come back to it. That's what I do.
I was involved in such an accident and hit the car ahead of me. Unfortunately I had to learn who's fault it is was, based on the law. My insurance covered the accident. And now I look out for brake slammers and provide extra space. I warn other people that sometimes drivers will just slam on the brakes for no apparent reason.
Harry K - 27 Aug 2006 19:34 GMT > >As Brent said, the only way you could fail to stop before hitting her > >with a 3 sec gap is mechanical failure (bad brakes), not paying [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > slammers and provide extra space. I warn other people that sometimes > drivers will just slam on the brakes for no apparent reason. Granted that slamming on brakes is a poor practice but if you rear end someone, _why_ they slammed them on is of no interest to anyone except maybe you (excepting swoop and stops of course).
Harry K
Bill Funk - 27 Aug 2006 23:49 GMT >Granted that slamming on brakes is a poor practice but if you rear end >someone, _why_ they slammed them on is of no interest to anyone except >maybe you (excepting swoop and stops of course). That's Swoop and Squat... http://www.allstate.com/About/PageRender.asp?page=fraud.htm :-)
 Signature Bill Funk replace "g" with "a"
Harry K - 28 Aug 2006 03:09 GMT > >Granted that slamming on brakes is a poor practice but if you rear end > >someone, _why_ they slammed them on is of no interest to anyone except [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Bill Funk > replace "g" with "a" Yep, I had a 'senior moment' and couldn't recall the squat.
Harry K
Bill Funk - 27 Aug 2006 15:39 GMT >I was driving along the freeway with the speed limit at 70 mph, and I >was going about that fast. The lady in front of me slammed on her [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >didn't give her enough room. I don't think I should have to pay for the >extensive damage on my car. Any thoughts from anyone? Well, you hit her fair and square. A three-second space should have been enough, but if you still hit her, it obviously wasn't, for some reason. Are your brakes in good shape? How are your tires? Did you eat up two of those seconds fiddling with the radio, or anythign else? It's interesting that you don't complain about paying for the damage to HER car, just to yours. I can only surmise you don't have collision insurance, right?
 Signature Bill Funk replace "g" with "a"
Scott en Aztlán - 27 Aug 2006 15:42 GMT guerrerorunner@gmail.com said in rec.autos.driving:
>I was driving along the freeway with the speed limit at 70 mph, and I >was going about that fast. The lady in front of me slammed on her >brakes HARD. It was so hard that by the time I hit her car I couldn't >see it because of all the smoke from her tires. I was maintaining a >safe following distance (3 seconds), but it was still not enough time >for me to stop my car. Did anyone miss the irony of that statement?
 Signature I'm a wreckless driver and damn proud of it!
wtrplnet - 27 Aug 2006 17:52 GMT > guerrerorunner@gmail.com said in rec.autos.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Did anyone miss the irony of that statement? Just to make it unanimous, yes, it's your fault.
websurf1@cox.net - 28 Aug 2006 03:36 GMT . I was maintaining a
> >safe following distance (3 seconds), but it was still not enough time > >for me to stop my car. > > Did anyone miss the irony of that statement? No, I saw it right away.
But I have to be sympathetic here. In most freeway situations in town, you absolutely cannot have a safe stopping distance between you and the car in front. There are too many cars and not enough room. If you tried to leave one length for every 10 mph, three cars would have filled it up. Consequently, if any driver slammed on the brakes, there is most likely going to be a tail-ender. Or more than one.
So sure, the driver didn't maintain a safe distance. Because doing so is impossible. And we live--and drive--with that every day.
Another reason to push for mass transit. (Then if there is a wreck we can ALL be in it....)
Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS - 27 Aug 2006 16:11 GMT >I was driving along the freeway with the speed limit at 70 mph, and I >was going about that fast. The lady in front of me slammed on her [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >didn't give her enough room. I don't think I should have to pay for the >extensive damage on my car. Any thoughts from anyone? If you'd been doing 50 you'd have been able to stop in time. You can't drive too slow.
Bill Funk - 27 Aug 2006 19:57 GMT >>I was driving along the freeway with the speed limit at 70 mph, and I >>was going about that fast. The lady in front of me slammed on her [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >If you'd been doing 50 you'd have been able to stop in time. You can't >drive too slow. Then why do you recommend 50mph? Have the nice man in the white jacket explain this question to you.
 Signature Bill Funk replace "g" with "a"
Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS - 27 Aug 2006 21:08 GMT >>>I was driving along the freeway with the speed limit at 70 mph, and I >>>was going about that fast. The lady in front of me slammed on her [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Then why do you recommend 50mph? The OP said freeway, you nitwit. Most freeways have speed minimums. THINK
Bill Funk - 27 Aug 2006 23:50 GMT >>>>I was driving along the freeway with the speed limit at 70 mph, and I >>>>was going about that fast. The lady in front of me slammed on her [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >The OP said freeway, you nitwit. Most freeways have speed minimums. >THINK But you said that you can't go too slow, and now you say you can. Confused? Let that nice man in the white jacket know; maybe your meds are reacting to each other.
 Signature Bill Funk replace "g" with "a"
Harry K - 28 Aug 2006 03:10 GMT > >>>>I was driving along the freeway with the speed limit at 70 mph, and I > >>>>was going about that fast. The lady in front of me slammed on her [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Bill Funk > replace "g" with "a" Don't confuse the poor thing. It is now arguing with itself.
Harry K
Bill Funk - 28 Aug 2006 23:12 GMT >> >>Then why do you recommend 50mph? >> > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Harry K He argues with everyone. That nice man in the white jacket who helps him, is changed out every two days. That's the longest anyone can take it. The white jacket assignments for him are in a strict rotation; everyone gets their turn in the barrel.
 Signature Bill Funk replace "g" with "a"
morticide - 29 Aug 2006 01:30 GMT > >> >>Then why do you recommend 50mph? > >> > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Bill Funk > replace "g" with "a" It's bad enough to talk to yourself, and worse if you argue with yourself. You are truly in trouble if you lose those arguments. (source unknown)
The case you mention likely has yet to find a good use for the piece of meat on top of the neck.
guerrerorunner@gmail.com - 28 Aug 2006 06:43 GMT Actually in california MOST freeways dont. and it would have been stupid to drive 50 when the speed limit is 70!
> >>>I was driving along the freeway with the speed limit at 70 mph, and I > >>>was going about that fast. The lady in front of me slammed on her [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > The OP said freeway, you nitwit. Most freeways have speed minimums. > THINK John S. - 27 Aug 2006 17:51 GMT > I was driving along the freeway with the speed limit at 70 mph, and I > was going about that fast. The lady in front of me slammed on her [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > didn't give her enough room. I don't think I should have to pay for the > extensive damage on my car. Any thoughts from anyone? Since you ran into the rear of her car you were following too close for circumstances. And yes you should and will have to pay for the extensive damage to both your car and hers. Period.
Alexander Rogge - 28 Aug 2006 01:32 GMT > I was maintaining a > safe following distance (3 seconds), but it was still not enough time > for me to stop my car. Driver reaction times, not following distances, are measured in seconds. In driving school, you should've learned to set speeds and following distances properly. If your reaction time is measured in whole seconds, you shouldn't be driving.
> The officer claimed it was my fault because I > didn't give her enough room. It was your fault because you hit a skidding vehicle.
Harry K - 28 Aug 2006 03:13 GMT > > I was maintaining a > > safe following distance (3 seconds), but it was still not enough time [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > It was your fault because you hit a skidding vehicle. ??? Mesuring in seconds is the recommended way as it is far easier and more accurate than the old 'car lengths' method which hardly anyone can come within 20 feet of guessing.
Harry K
websurf1@cox.net - 28 Aug 2006 03:40 GMT > ??? Mesuring in seconds is the recommended way as it is far easier and > more accurate than the old 'car lengths' method which hardly anyone can > come within 20 feet of guessing. > > Harry K The old cars used to be longer, which gave more safety measure. ;<)
Ad absurdum per aspera - 29 Aug 2006 15:30 GMT You might want to consult a lawyer with experience in traffic law -- not just in your state, but in your area. It should be fairly quick and cheap to get his reading on whether contesting the ticket is worth your while, and what the civil possibilities might be. (If you rear ended someone hard enough to cause "extensive damage" to your own car, you might end up needing a lawyer anyway...)
One end of the range of possibilities is that she saw some hazard you didn't, and for whatever reason you failed to exercise your responsibility to stop short of her. Woops! At the other extreme, maybe she did a very foolish thing maliciously targeted at you.
I would imagine that witnesses will be very important in making a case that it was anything but the former. Rear enders happen a lot, and the usual cause is somebody following too close too fast with not enough attention.
BTW, a common SWAG is that for a typical car with average brakes and tires on a dry road it takes roughly 5 seconds to stop a car at 70 mph when you factor in perception time and reaction time as well as actual braking time. If the person ahead has a better car, or shaves off the perception and reaction time by being sharper, you better enlarge that. Expect to be confronted with accepted standards used in the insurance industry in these matters, and to have a real struggle with "everybody does it" counter-arguments. One layman's opinions, worth what you paid if your connect time is cheap.
So here's something to ponder in the various waiting rooms you're likely to be in: Is three seconds at 70 mph a truly safe interval in something reasonably close to a worst case -- say your mind is wandering, as minds will do; or maybe you're fishing the last french fry out of the bag; and you don't realize that there's hard braking going on ahead quite as soon as you might hope? Or is it a "success oriented" interval that makes urban traffic more efficient under normal conditions, and lets you get out of many predicaments -- but leaves you facing a substantial risk of parking in somebody else's trunk if things get worse, faster, than usual? Something to think about...
Safety first, --Joe
Shawn Hirn - 29 Aug 2006 21:15 GMT > I was driving along the freeway with the speed limit at 70 mph, and I > was going about that fast. The lady in front of me slammed on her [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > didn't give her enough room. I don't think I should have to pay for the > extensive damage on my car. Any thoughts from anyone? The cop's probably right, but you should definitely see a lawyer, especially if an injury resulted from this accident. Based on what YOU said, you were following too close, but that woman may be partially at fault. You need a lawyer to sort this out for you.
Alan Baker - 29 Aug 2006 23:53 GMT > I was driving along the freeway with the speed limit at 70 mph, and I > was going about that fast. The lady in front of me slammed on her [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > didn't give her enough room. I don't think I should have to pay for the > extensive damage on my car. Any thoughts from anyone? Yup.
You were at fault. Accept it and move on.
 Signature Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia "If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
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